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Which way are we heading ?

edited December 2014 in General Charlton
So which way are we heading ?

I believe that to be pushing for the play-offs, we need possibly 16 players, of play off level ability. I calculate that we have 7.

For mid table respectability, do we need 16 of that level or above ? We have 9.

So for me, we have more than half of a smallish squad, that for one reason or another, aren’t quite up to the job. This may be through inexperience, lack of ability, haven’t settled or whatever.

I reckon we were over performing at the start of the season, through very solid but negative tactics. We were sussed out & are now attacking a bit more, but leaking goals.

Big Bob has lost the plot a bit and is being too defensive against the lower teams and too attacking against the better teams.

As we had such a good start, we should be able to avoid relegation.

If we don’t make any decent signings in January it will be close.

If we do make some good signings, we could still aim for top half, as this division is so very tight. A few decent players could propel a team from 20th to 6th.

As others have said, RD is deluded, if he thinks he can throw in half a dozen U21’s and expect them to regularly outperform the other teams. Yes there is some great potential, but that’s what they are potential.

Only my view. I’m sure many will disagree with my view, but generally, I think I’m not far off.

Play-off level

Henderson
Bikey
Gudmundson
Vetokele
Buyens
Solly
Ben Haim

Mid table level

Wiggins
Cousins
Onyewu

Low level/Relegation level

Wilson
Gomez
Jackson
Bulot
Moussa
Harriot
Church
Fox
Tucadean
Pope
Ahearne-Grant
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Comments

  • What is Onyewu's rating base on?
  • What is Onyewu's rating base on?

    Purely my opinion/guesswork. Like I say everyone will have their own opinion, but I think I'm broadly right.
  • Would put Jackson and Gomez at mid table otherwise agree.
  • Think your overall assessment is pretty spot on CE. I'd argue slightly differently for a few individuals - I think Verokele is looking more over rated every time I see him and is probably mid table level, I'm not totally convinced that Cousins is up to mid table level yet but jury is out until he gets a sensible run in his best position. I think Jacko is still (just) mid table level but the legs are or what they were. Not seen enough of Moussa or Ahearne grant yet to form a view. An interesting judgement is how many of our team could cut it in the premier league if we were to miraculously get into/through the playoffs ( we've not chance, I'm just conjecturing btw). In my book, only Gudmundsson (when he's on song) and, possibly Buyens. Ben Haim is clearly good enough but age is against him.
  • edited December 2014

    Would put Jackson and Gomez at mid table otherwise agree.

    Quite possibly. I did consider that. Gomez would certainly be there or even higher on potential, but I'm judging them , let's say, as if they were very experienced, as that, is what they are competing against. Last night he had to be moved position for protection. Great talent, but I'm judging on the right now.

    Once again, Jacko, can flit between all 3 categories, but overall, I'd marginally, place him, at the top, of the bottom group.
  • Downwards
    It's a good job we had a good start or we would be in the bottom 3
    We need consistent players who perform every week
    don't have to be superstars just solid dependable players who give 100% every game and don't go missing 2 out of every 3 games
  • Downwards at the moment but if we have a decent January then the talk about play offs will start again.

    The division is quite fluid, Forest looked like running away with it and are now mid table and sinking, Norwich have been top then had a slump to table but now coming back up, Bournemouth were mid table and now top so who knows what the table will look like in a month let alone the end of the season.
  • edited December 2014
    Very interesting stuff C E.
    Our dive in form has corresponded with Henderson's absence, indicating how vital is the GK position. Interesting how your 'top' players include three members of a defence which has imploded lately. There is surely a link between this 'fact' and Henderson's injury.
    Vetokele has missed many chances lately and is nowhere near good enough to be included in the 'top' bracket. He is lightweight and has been sussed out by the opposition. Wilson and Jackson deserve 'regrading upwards', otherwise I would agree with most of your analysis.
    I have written elsewhere that we need three or four good quality players, not hit or miss merchants from the Ardennes forest or the more remote parts of east Europe, but preferably experienced English/British pros who are still ambitious and are able to give the proverbial 100%. To be realistic, I don't hold out a lot of hope that we will get one, let alone three or four such new players in during this season .. be nice to see this type of line up come February:

    Henderson Solly Bikey Ben-Haim Wiggins .. Gudmundson Buyens NEWMAN NEWMAN ... NEWMAN NEWMAN ..we live in hope
  • I think it depends whether you mean short term or long term. Every club has bad patches - note, Manchester United and Liverpool this season. I think we now have some players that could push us towards the top few in this division. Last season, if I'm honest, I think we did well to survive.

    The jury is still out on Peeters and some of the players that joined us this year and we will only start to learn more when the next two transfer windows have taken place. If we add, two good standard players in January and two more in the summer without losing any of the best ones, we will be there or thereabouts next season, I fancy.

    If Vetokele and JBG disappear in January with the youngsters being forced through, we will struggle.

    A bit more patience is needed, I think. I am sure I overheard someone say in a bar near The Valley that it would be a bumpy ride.
  • Very interesting stuff C E.
    Our dive in form has corresponded with Henderson's absence, indicating how vital is the GK position. Interesting how your 'top' players include three members of a defence which has imploded lately. There is surely a link between this 'fact' and Henderson's injury.
    Vetokele has missed many chances lately and is nowhere near good enough to be included in the 'top' bracket. He is lightweight and has been sussed out by the opposition. Wilson and Jackson deserve 'regrading upwards', otherwise I would agree with most of your analysis.
    I have written elsewhere that we need three or four good quality players, not hit or miss merchants from the Ardennes forest or the more remote parts of east Europe, but preferably experienced English/British pros who are still ambitious and are able to give the proverbial 100%. To be realistic, I don't hold out a lot of hope that we will get one, let alone three or four such new players in during this season .. be nice to see this type of line up come February:

    Henderson Solly Bikey Ben-Haim Wiggins .. Gudmundson Buyens NEWMAN NEWMAN ... NEWMAN NEWMAN ..we live in hope

    Yep Newman is a good choice, especially if you like fancy footwork.


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CfihYWRWRTQ
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  • seth plum said:

    Very interesting stuff C E.
    Our dive in form has corresponded with Henderson's absence, indicating how vital is the GK position. Interesting how your 'top' players include three members of a defence which has imploded lately. There is surely a link between this 'fact' and Henderson's injury.
    Vetokele has missed many chances lately and is nowhere near good enough to be included in the 'top' bracket. He is lightweight and has been sussed out by the opposition. Wilson and Jackson deserve 'regrading upwards', otherwise I would agree with most of your analysis.
    I have written elsewhere that we need three or four good quality players, not hit or miss merchants from the Ardennes forest or the more remote parts of east Europe, but preferably experienced English/British pros who are still ambitious and are able to give the proverbial 100%. To be realistic, I don't hold out a lot of hope that we will get one, let alone three or four such new players in during this season .. be nice to see this type of line up come February:

    Henderson Solly Bikey Ben-Haim Wiggins .. Gudmundson Buyens NEWMAN NEWMAN ... NEWMAN NEWMAN ..we live in hope

    Yep Newman is a good choice, especially if you like fancy footwork.


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CfihYWRWRTQ
    If indeed the 'newmen' turn out to be as rubbish as that 'singer' we might as well not bother .....
  • Extremely harsh on Harriot, Moussa, Cousins, Gomez.

    Especially Cousins, who is a quality player imo
  • edited December 2014
    Interesting. Only one major beef with your list and that is Cousins. No way mid-table championship player, just not being used effectively.

    IMO, this league has a huge intangible as the major factor and that is the influence the coaching/management has on the same set of players. Id say its more accentuated then any other league, definitely has more influence in this division than the PL.

    I mean Birmingham, purlease. Gary Rowett looking like Rinus Michels.

    As we see over the past 5-10 years, you always get one team of journeymen and hasbeens/neverbeens that do well. This seems to stem from a manager who knows the division inside out (doesnt have to be from direct experience measured in seasons though) and can use this knowledge to good effect (using Stuart Pearce as an example - bags of knowledge, no ability to manage a football team).

    Mick McCarthy knows what he needs to get a team over 80pts and its direct and powerful players when budget is limited. People banging on about Ipswich players, not really the point at all. I dont see a team of stars, more that they are well organised and pragmatic.

    Mark Warburton - wow that fella continues to impress. he is sharp as a tack and brings the benefits of his commercial career to football man-management.
    Brentford have a bottom 6-8 squad, but they are just used to winning and they are far greater than the sum of their parts. You wouldnt swap Andre Gray for Vetokele on any day but you would like to see Igor used as effectively as MW deploys Gray. I think they will scrape 6th.

    Forest could have had the best team in the league but they have the wrong man in charge who hasnt purchased players with an overall scheme in mind, just signing players off top scorer lists a la Pardew. Poor value in that approach.

    Outrageous as it seems, IMO Jose (the Special One not the Charlton one) would get Blackpools squad in the play offs.

    So, where is BP in the ranking? Id say bottom 6-8 but thats mainly due to lack of experience and of course he needs more time to show what he is all about.

  • edited December 2014
    I was right with you, until you said Riga would get Blackpool into the play-offs :-)
  • I think he means Mourinho would get Blackpool into the play offs.
  • Ha. Not even Mourinho would get Blackpool into the play off's.
  • Don't know but it will be a bu........

    you know the rest.

    : - )
  • Don't know but it will be a bu........

    you know the rest.

    : - )

    ..a bugger?
  • stonemuse said:

    Don't know but it will be a bu........

    you know the rest.

    : - )

    ..a bugger?
    Whatever gets you thru the night.
  • What is your assessment of Ahearne-Grante based on?
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  • edited December 2014

    What is your assessment of Ahearne-Grante based on?

    He's a promising kid, who isn't ready/quite ready to be a FORCE, in The Championship, as of NOW.
    He was "nowhere" at the start of the season.

    Gomez, could be an outstanding player. But as of NOW, he is an outstanding talent. A big difference.
    Especially, if your team is half full of prospects, that aren't quite ready.
    One or two you can accommodate, but not 5 or 6.

    We play Pope, Fox, Cousins, Harriot, Gomez and Ahearne-Grant and wonder why we can't beat experienced, bigger, stronger Championship opponents. They are getting swatted aside too often.
  • Your not far wrong with that assessment Covered End.
    At Least you are a guy who go to the games, and don't just rely on 2nd hand info.
    Plus at a couple of games you were even sober !

    George Tucadean has had 3 and a half games(45 mins against Derby) where i would have him in
    my play off team, Most of the other performances he would struggle to make a 2nd division side.

    Gomez will be in the top group one day, not just yet.

    Jackson has had a great career at CAFC, but like his goals, it seems to be diminishing returns,
    so can see why he is in bottom group now.

    Igor's form in first part of season was Play off group,
    Maybe the only good thing about his dip in form is he will still be a CAFC player in feb,
    when he can start scoring again and we will at least finish in mid table.

  • Ahearne-Grant is at Oxford for the whole season, though!
    Cousins was doing very well at CM before he was replaced by Poyet then used as a utility player.
    Gomez is being played out of position. All the top players you rate are playing in their natural position.
  • Ahearne-Grant is at Oxford for the whole season, though!
    Cousins was doing very well at CM before he was replaced by Poyet then used as a utility player.
    Gomez is being played out of position. All the top players you rate are playing in their natural position.

    Holmes-Dennis is at Oxford !
    Cousins is doing well.
    Even if Gomez was playing right back, I wouldn't see him as a FORCE as of NOW. Next season maybe or the season after, but not NOW.
  • Ahearne-Grant is at Oxford for the whole season, though!
    Cousins was doing very well at CM before he was replaced by Poyet then used as a utility player.
    Gomez is being played out of position. All the top players you rate are playing in their natural position.

    Holmes-Dennis is at Oxford !
    DUH!
  • edited December 2014

    Ahearne-Grant is at Oxford for the whole season, though!
    Cousins was doing very well at CM before he was replaced by Poyet then used as a utility player.
    Gomez is being played out of position. All the top players you rate are playing in their natural position.

    Holmes-Dennis is at Oxford !
    DUH!
    DOH! :-) You been on the sauce already Andy?
  • What is your assessment of Ahearne-Grante based on?

    I wouldn't say Aherne-Grant was young, but he can't play in Evening games because his mum says
    that he has to be home by 9.30 !

    At least a year too early. (harder for forwards unless your a Rooney who was mature as a footballer at 16,
    well on the pitch at least)

  • edited December 2014
    Interesting approach...of the 11 in the third category I would maintain that two or three are way better and two are out of contract in the summer. Plus one is a loan player - so that solves half the problem of eliminating the lower quality element in the squad.
    And we know the rest can help a network club in Spain, Belgium or Hungary so 2015-16 could start with a much improved squad.

    The question is whether Buyens will stay and who will be acquired to help CAFC make the next step up into a top 8 club.

    Very interesting point about coaches and managers. Absolutely vital that the head coach can deliver more than the sum of the parts, along with developing individuals. Too early to judge in our case but to become a top 8 club you need someone who can get you there by winning every other game.
  • At the level we are at I think all the players don't offer consistency and will pop up in each of the groups over the season.

    I make you right on that. The difference is that this season the players are much younger and if they find the next level of their game they will add a lot of value to themselves and the club. For example if Harriott could ever find the shooting boots that Riga bought him then he would be worth a fortune and solve part of our goal scoring issues.
    Clubs like Derby, Ipswich and Bournemouth would have been in the same position as us 18 months ago - they have gone on to develop with good coaching AND player acquisition plus decent loans from the FAPL.

    Mid-table is fine as long as we can see the squad improving every six months.
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