My Brighton supporting mate is rightfully ashamed at his club over this, we only chatted last night about being proud of our clubs trying to stand up for what is the correct thing to do.
He feels let down by his club.
I was wondering about the Brighton fans. Could you perhaps ask him if he knows what their Trust's position is on the issue? If there are enough Trusts capable of independent thought, regardless of what their clubs decide, they are also capable of building a popular demand for a more sustainable long term approach, via politicians as appropriate.
He is not really sure about their supporters trust but he says that the fans in the ground seemed very pro the now old rules.
Obviously if their chairman plans to blow the bank on a few top signings to get them back up the table, he suspects he will be in a minority who still prefered the original FFP system.
unfortunately they don't blow the bank with their own cash most of the time, they hock clubs with huge debt
Well true, i did not mean literal, just the point that he suspects that if this is a philosophy change by their owner, that a lot of the fans he meets at the ground who seemed very pro the old FFP will go quiet.
Sadly too many fans willing to risk their clubs future for short term gain.
Quite - and the reality is that if Duchatelet had been in favour of scrapping the FFP rules because he wanted to invest over and above them a large constituency on here would agree with him regardless of the "good of the game". So I think the idea that fans can be an effective lobby on issues like this is pie in the sky and always will be. They, as much as owners, will largely chase the dream.
Im willing to admit im a dreamer type of fan but not at the expense of my clubs future.
I would be interested to learn more about the German league football changes, as from the little i know, they all seem to be positive for the clubs and fans.
Question for anyone who knows more, did the changes start with the fans or the German FA?
Im willing to admit im a dreamer type of fan but not at the expense of my clubs future.
I would be interested to learn more about the German league football changes, as from the little i know, they all seem to be positive for the clubs and fans.
Question for anyone who knows more, did the changes start with the fans or the German FA?
Glad you ask that, because the answer is a response to @Airman Brown too.
In Germany the fans' voice is inbuilt into the football structure, because of the "50+1" ownership system where at least 51% of ownership of the clubs is in the hands of members. And whenever someone, most recently the owner of Hannover 96, or Red Bull, try to advocate change to the rule, there are furious protests. The clubs are members of the Bundesliga, and the Bundesliga is a constituent of the German FA. So the changes came from the German FA, but the clubs, with their member ownership were signatories to it all, and may even have been the prime movers. It's not perfect there, Sky have successfully tampered with the fixture schedules, to general discontent, but it's a whole lot more cohesive than here.
I can't think of any good reason why the Germans should naturally be more sensible than the English, and why the English are not capable of learning from the German experience. A lot of people thought it was "pie in the sky" that we could return the club from Selhurst, forming a political party to do so if necessary. Perhaps English football needs the visionary and driven fans' leader that we had then. I wonder what happened to him…
M.Duchatelet is chasing the sustainability dream. I would hope the supporters Trust can back that and communicate it to fans. Just four contracts signed six months ago have made CAFC sustainable : University of Greenwich sponsorship Outsourcing catering Vetokele Gudmundsson The combination of these pushes CAFC rapidly towards breakeven. As well as enabling the board to focus 100% on football and not losses or operational issues.
If ten clubs double their losses to compete only three will succeed...in fact only one or two since clubs relegated from the FAPL will take promotion places too. It is therefore inevitable that some clubs will fail as in fall over. We can watch from the side. As long as Staprix can keep sourcing talent we are good. What I don't understand is why Watford didn't follow the cafc position. But the vote has gone and will be impossible to reverse. The only rational course is to push on up the table. Sign young quality players who might be resold to fund the future.
Im willing to admit im a dreamer type of fan but not at the expense of my clubs future.
I would be interested to learn more about the German league football changes, as from the little i know, they all seem to be positive for the clubs and fans.
Question for anyone who knows more, did the changes start with the fans or the German FA?
Glad you ask that, because the answer is a response to @Airman Brown too.
In Germany the fans' voice is inbuilt into the football structure, because of the "50+1" ownership system where at least 51% of ownership of the clubs is in the hands of members. And whenever someone, most recently the owner of Hannover 96, or Red Bull, try to advocate change to the rule, there are furious protests. The clubs are members of the Bundesliga, and the Bundesliga is a constituent of the German FA. So the changes came from the German FA, but the clubs, with their member ownership were signatories to it all, and may even have been the prime movers. It's not perfect there, Sky have successfully tampered with the fixture schedules, to general discontent, but it's a whole lot more cohesive than here.
I can't think of any good reason why the Germans should naturally be more sensible than the English, and why the English are not capable of learning from the German experience. A lot of people thought it was "pie in the sky" that we could return the club from Selhurst, forming a political party to do so if necessary. Perhaps English football needs the visionary and driven fans' leader that we had then. I wonder what happened to him…
Thanks for your notes on Brighton, GGA.
The point being that the Valley campaign was club focused and impacted our fans directly. People won't respond in the same way to abstract arguments that may not serve their own club's interest.
Quite - and the reality is that if Duchatelet had been in favour of scrapping the FFP rules because he wanted to invest over and above them a large constituency on here would agree with him regardless of the "good of the game". So I think the idea that fans can be an effective lobby on issues like this is pie in the sky and always will be. They, as much as owners, will largely chase the dream.
Understand that - we all want success for our Club. However, if there were to be a level playing field (such as the original FFP) for all Clubs, then I'm sure most supporters would be content with reasonable and legitimate financial parameters.
Im willing to admit im a dreamer type of fan but not at the expense of my clubs future.
I would be interested to learn more about the German league football changes, as from the little i know, they all seem to be positive for the clubs and fans.
Question for anyone who knows more, did the changes start with the fans or the German FA?
Glad you ask that, because the answer is a response to @Airman Brown too.
In Germany the fans' voice is inbuilt into the football structure, because of the "50+1" ownership system where at least 51% of ownership of the clubs is in the hands of members. And whenever someone, most recently the owner of Hannover 96, or Red Bull, try to advocate change to the rule, there are furious protests. The clubs are members of the Bundesliga, and the Bundesliga is a constituent of the German FA. So the changes came from the German FA, but the clubs, with their member ownership were signatories to it all, and may even have been the prime movers. It's not perfect there, Sky have successfully tampered with the fixture schedules, to general discontent, but it's a whole lot more cohesive than here.
I can't think of any good reason why the Germans should naturally be more sensible than the English, and why the English are not capable of learning from the German experience. A lot of people thought it was "pie in the sky" that we could return the club from Selhurst, forming a political party to do so if necessary. Perhaps English football needs the visionary and driven fans' leader that we had then. I wonder what happened to him…
Thanks for your notes on Brighton, GGA.
The point being that the Valley campaign was club focused and impacted our fans directly. People won't respond in the same way to abstract arguments that may not serve their own club's interest.
You think the fact that we get £3m of TV money while Cardiff get £60m is abstract, and that English fans are incapable of grasping how absurd that is?
Maybe you are right. But in that case we might as well all just give up. I just didn't think giving up was your style.
Im willing to admit im a dreamer type of fan but not at the expense of my clubs future.
I would be interested to learn more about the German league football changes, as from the little i know, they all seem to be positive for the clubs and fans.
Question for anyone who knows more, did the changes start with the fans or the German FA?
Glad you ask that, because the answer is a response to @Airman Brown too.
In Germany the fans' voice is inbuilt into the football structure, because of the "50+1" ownership system where at least 51% of ownership of the clubs is in the hands of members. And whenever someone, most recently the owner of Hannover 96, or Red Bull, try to advocate change to the rule, there are furious protests. The clubs are members of the Bundesliga, and the Bundesliga is a constituent of the German FA. So the changes came from the German FA, but the clubs, with their member ownership were signatories to it all, and may even have been the prime movers. It's not perfect there, Sky have successfully tampered with the fixture schedules, to general discontent, but it's a whole lot more cohesive than here.
I can't think of any good reason why the Germans should naturally be more sensible than the English, and why the English are not capable of learning from the German experience. A lot of people thought it was "pie in the sky" that we could return the club from Selhurst, forming a political party to do so if necessary. Perhaps English football needs the visionary and driven fans' leader that we had then. I wonder what happened to him…
Thanks for your notes on Brighton, GGA.
The point being that the Valley campaign was club focused and impacted our fans directly. People won't respond in the same way to abstract arguments that may not serve their own club's interest.
You think the fact that we get £3m of TV money while Cardiff get £60m is abstract, and that English fans are incapable of grasping how absurd that is?
Maybe you are right. But in that case we might as well all just give up. I just didn't think giving up was your style.
If that's you're argument then you'll get precisely nowhere, because it's not even truthful. On what basis do Cardiff get £60m when we get £3m? Not when they are in the same division. Not on the same timescale. Anybody who wasn't born yesterday - and I include RD in this - will have known that there was a major chance of the FFP rules being overturned and if they didn't then they have only themselves to blame because they can't have been paying attention. Why don't you move back to London and set yourself up as the head of a campaign if you're that bothered? Presumably because you've got better things to do with your life. Well, me too.
Goodness, @Covered End has hacked into Airman's account
Anyway here is the basis for the £60m. I was wrong. It's actually £63.7m
Have you not noticed that Cardiff are in the Championship this season?
Do you think it is reasonable, healthy, sensible, whatever word you choose, that if we somehow get promoted we will suddenly jump from 3m to 64m plus in TV revenue? Don't you think that is exactly what attracts people like Jiminez , Cellino, Oyston to own Championship clubs, and for even those who are not out and out crooks to load their club with debt in pursuit of the money pot? Do you think it is reasonable that Cardiff get more than five times as much TV revenue as we do this season ? Blimey the Premiership itself is a Communist collective, compared to the Championship..
I think most fans are only dimly aware of such figures. If more of them are aware, more of them will realise that it is absolute madness.
Goodness, @Covered End has hacked into Airman's account
Anyway here is the basis for the £60m. I was wrong. It's actually £63.7m
Have you not noticed that Cardiff are in the Championship this season?
Do you think it is reasonable, healthy, sensible, whatever word you choose, that if we somehow get promoted we will suddenly jump from 3m to 64m plus in TV revenue? Don't you think that is exactly what attracts people like Jiminez , Cellino, Oyston to own Championship clubs, and for even those who are not out and out crooks to load their club with debt in pursuit of the money pot? Do you think it is reasonable that Cardiff get more than five times as much TV revenue as we do this season ? Blimey the Premiership itself is a Communist collective, compared to the Championship..
I think most fans are only dimly aware of such figures. If more of them are aware, more of them will realise that it is absolute madness.
No, I don't. But I do think most people would accept that the cost of competing in the PL and the commercial appeal of that league worldwide versus the commercial appeal of the Championship mean it is wholly reasonable that clubs at that level get substantially bigger TV payments than clubs in the Football League. So it's a question of degree, not one of the principle.
You seem to be putting up a circular argument because if you believe as many do that RD bought Charlton to get his hands on the PL revenue - because that is the only sound business reason for doing so - then it follows that he wouldn't have done so without the reward being there. And perhaps we were in financial trouble in the first place because of the inequality, but equally the club wasn't fantastically run or commercially viable in the past when these rewards didn't exist - see 1984 for example. It still needed rescuing from bankruptcy.
What I am realistic enough to realise that with that kind of money at stake at the top of the game the chances of a) supporters mobilising to take action and b) the people who own the clubs being influenced is very low. The key consideration is that the gravy train keeps on running - despite you (and Richard Murray) endlessly predicting the end of the line for about 20 years. As long as PL grounds are full and the Sky and overseas rights money flows in, nothing will change and everything will be dictated by what happens at the top.
You bark at the moon if you like. It won't go away.
also that owners can speculatively saddle clubs with debt and put them out of business etc, perhaps we aren't quite there yet on that
It is not only the clubs that suffer but the local companies that provide goods and services to those clubs that suffer. Time and time again it is the small businesses that suffer when clubs go into administration.
Goodness, @Covered End has hacked into Airman's account
Anyway here is the basis for the £60m. I was wrong. It's actually £63.7m
Have you not noticed that Bolton, Wigan, Cardiff and Fulham are all failing in the Championship this season? Only Wigan have not yet sacked their manager and he is the bookies favourite for the next for the chop!
Fixed it for you!
In response to other posts: Once again parachute money does not guarantee success. In fact it is a reward for failure and tempts FAPL clubs like us in the past into awarding long term contracts to players who can't hack it in the Championship. There is an established pattern of failure and very few relegated clubs go straight back up. Cafc has not been commercially viable since the board and Pardew screwed up six years ago. Losing £7m a year with no prospect of promotion is a slow death.
Let us please make no mistake: M.Duchatelet, Vetokele and Gudmundsson are here because of the FAPL not their love of all things SE7! Those two players and Buyens(on loan) may well play for us in 2015-16 or be sold to pay the bills / they want to step up.
Reading had 10,000 empty seats on Saturday and they've been out of the FAPL for five minutes. Love Charlton and the Championship is a great competition but the skill and entertainment levels are nothing compared to the Premier League.
Artificially tampering with the market, "nationalising" the biggest football media deal in the world (2.5bn at the last count) will be expensive and handing control to the FA simply doesn't fly.
It may not be common knowledge but the FAPL belongs to the 20 member clubs. Owners borrow millions because of the guaranteed revenues for years to come. For sure not enough goes to grass roots and coaching but the FA have had two decades to address that! The goalposts in the Championship have just been moved to assist the extension of a permanent set of yo-yo clubs. Brentford, Watford and Millwall were either frightened of losing £2m tv revenue or they actually fancy their chances! This is an FAPL 2 evolving in front of our eyes. Not formally. Just that the budget and skill to be in the top ten of the championship is going to require deep, deep pockets.
And some clubs voting yes are going to regret it big time.
Staprix has picked up a bargain and they have the skill and resources to chase the dream without risking the club. We have already seen a top six defence emerge and they will scout the players to improve the midfield and striker options.
The only reason the FAPL stops is if it stops being competitive. The parachute payments help the bottom clubs compete and there are different champions at the top most years. Contrast the other big European leagues which are two/three horse races year after year after year. Where else would a club with the stature of Man Utd start to fail?
Ironically it is the levels of debt which prevent ordinary fans participating. Staprix has a different model which does not involve burning millions. One day who knows...
Given Duchatelet's vast personal fortune - around £320m and counting - I view the change of FFP rules to allow increased debt as a splendid opportunity for him to invest in top-rate players bought from outside his 'network'.
The idea as some understand it was to operate within FFP by utilising the network and thereby through that efficiency, that others may not be able to
We can still do that. And we can now spend more on players' transfer fees and wages, which gives us an advantage over those clubs that can't afford to do so.
Given Duchatelet's vast personal fortune - around £320m and counting - I view the change of FFP rules to allow increased debt as a splendid opportunity for him to invest in top-rate players bought from outside his 'network'.
The idea as some understand it was to operate within FFP by utilising the network and thereby through that efficiency, that others may not be able to
We can still do that. And we can now spend more on players' transfer fees and wages, which gives us an advantage over those clubs that can't afford to do so.
We can, but I fear you are missing the point. The point is that based on all the evidence we have, we won't. Roland Duchatelet has made that very clear.
Katrien Meire has also made it very clear that we have one of the smaller playing budgets in the Championship. Duchatelet's plan appears to have been to succeed despite this through a focus on youth development and insightful recruitment from Europe.
Even assuming that at the right time further investment in the playing squad might have been forthcoming, this strategy was always going to require very significant level of skill, in player recruitment, development and coaching, as well as a huge slice of luck, if it was to succeed. The bar is now likely to be even higher as clubs such as Bournemouth run budgets significantly larger than ours.
What Roland Duchatelet might be able to do isn't what matters. It's what he'll actually do that counts.
PS A question. What's the difference between Tony Jimenez and Roland Duchatelet? Jimenez was willing to spend money, but not able. Duchatelet is able, but not willing.
I made my point in full cognisance of Duchatelet's stated parsimony, Mundell. Yet he's perfectly entitled to change his strategy and take advantage of the greater debts allowable under the new rules. If we were to narrowly miss out on the play-offs on account of his persistence with young academy graduates in a threadbare squad, he'd have made a very serious error of judgement. My view is that he should spend to the limit on players who will give us the best possible chance of promotion.
Rather than speculate we should await results on the pitch and a club statement. A few more wins and the board are committed to signing "one or two quality players" Of course Staprix could accelerate investment but let us not forget that Staprix owns or is associated with six clubs - each and every one may have a case to "spend to the limit to max chances of promotion" or relevant prize. May I suggest that the optimum position is to aim for sixth place if we are up for it. A club statement, and those of other clubs along with the announcement about the new deal on parachute and solidarity payments will tell us a lot more than that which we know today.
Given Duchatelet's vast personal fortune - around £320m and counting - I view the change of FFP rules to allow increased debt as a splendid opportunity for him to invest in top-rate players bought from outside his 'network'.
The idea as some understand it was to operate within FFP by utilising the network and thereby through that efficiency, that others may not be able to
We can still do that. And we can now spend more on players' transfer fees and wages, which gives us an advantage over those clubs that can't afford to do so.
Given Duchatelet's vast personal fortune - around £320m and counting - I view the change of FFP rules to allow increased debt as a splendid opportunity for him to invest in top-rate players bought from outside his 'network'.
The idea as some understand it was to operate within FFP by utilising the network and thereby through that efficiency, that others may not be able to
We can still do that. And we can now spend more on players' transfer fees and wages, which gives us an advantage over those clubs that can't afford to do so.
We can, but I fear you are missing the point. The point is that based on all the evidence we have, we won't. Roland Duchatelet has made that very clear.
Katrien Meire has also made it very clear that we have one of the smaller playing budgets in the Championship. Duchatelet's plan appears to have been to succeed despite this through a focus on youth development and insightful recruitment from Europe.
Even assuming that at the right time further investment in the playing squad might have been forthcoming, this strategy was always going to require very significant level of skill, in player recruitment, development and coaching, as well as a huge slice of luck, if it was to succeed. The bar is now likely to be even higher as clubs such as Bournemouth run budgets significantly larger than ours.
What Roland Duchatelet might be able to do isn't what matters. It's what he'll actually do that counts.
PS A question. What's the difference between Tony Jimenez and Roland Duchatelet? Jimenez was willing to spend money, but not able. Duchatelet is able, but not willing.
I made my point in full cognisance of Duchatelet's stated parsimony, Mundell. Yet he's perfectly entitled to change his strategy and take advantage of the greater debts allowable under the new rules. If we were to narrowly miss out on the play-offs on account of his persistence with young academy graduates in a threadbare squad, he'd have made a very serious error of judgement. My view is that he should spend to the limit on players who will give us the best possible chance of promotion.
So you think a businessman should just blow all his money on your hobby?
Rather than speculate we should await results on the pitch and a club statement. A few more wins and the board are committed to signing "one or two quality players" Of course Staprix could accelerate investment but let us not forget that Staprix owns or is associated with six clubs - each and every one may have a case to "spend to the limit to max chances of promotion" or relevant prize. May I suggest that the optimum position is to aim for sixth place if we are up for it. A club statement, and those of other clubs along with the announcement about the new deal on parachute and solidarity payments will tell us a lot more than that which we know today.
Yet none of those other clubs can win promotion to the Premier League, with its disproportionate rewards, so you are undercutting your own argument.
Given Duchatelet's vast personal fortune - around £320m and counting - I view the change of FFP rules to allow increased debt as a splendid opportunity for him to invest in top-rate players bought from outside his 'network'.
The idea as some understand it was to operate within FFP by utilising the network and thereby through that efficiency, that others may not be able to
We can still do that. And we can now spend more on players' transfer fees and wages, which gives us an advantage over those clubs that can't afford to do so.
Given Duchatelet's vast personal fortune - around £320m and counting - I view the change of FFP rules to allow increased debt as a splendid opportunity for him to invest in top-rate players bought from outside his 'network'.
The idea as some understand it was to operate within FFP by utilising the network and thereby through that efficiency, that others may not be able to
We can still do that. And we can now spend more on players' transfer fees and wages, which gives us an advantage over those clubs that can't afford to do so.
We can, but I fear you are missing the point. The point is that based on all the evidence we have, we won't. Roland Duchatelet has made that very clear.
Katrien Meire has also made it very clear that we have one of the smaller playing budgets in the Championship. Duchatelet's plan appears to have been to succeed despite this through a focus on youth development and insightful recruitment from Europe.
Even assuming that at the right time further investment in the playing squad might have been forthcoming, this strategy was always going to require very significant level of skill, in player recruitment, development and coaching, as well as a huge slice of luck, if it was to succeed. The bar is now likely to be even higher as clubs such as Bournemouth run budgets significantly larger than ours.
What Roland Duchatelet might be able to do isn't what matters. It's what he'll actually do that counts.
PS A question. What's the difference between Tony Jimenez and Roland Duchatelet? Jimenez was willing to spend money, but not able. Duchatelet is able, but not willing.
I made my point in full cognisance of Duchatelet's stated parsimony, Mundell. Yet he's perfectly entitled to change his strategy and take advantage of the greater debts allowable under the new rules. If we were to narrowly miss out on the play-offs on account of his persistence with young academy graduates in a threadbare squad, he'd have made a very serious error of judgement. My view is that he should spend to the limit on players who will give us the best possible chance of promotion.
So you think a businessman should just blow all his money on your hobby?
My hobby? A purchase price of £14m out of Duchatelet's personal fortune of £340m looks rather like his hobby.
Given Duchatelet's vast personal fortune - around £320m and counting - I view the change of FFP rules to allow increased debt as a splendid opportunity for him to invest in top-rate players bought from outside his 'network'.
The idea as some understand it was to operate within FFP by utilising the network and thereby through that efficiency, that others may not be able to
We can still do that. And we can now spend more on players' transfer fees and wages, which gives us an advantage over those clubs that can't afford to do so.
Given Duchatelet's vast personal fortune - around £320m and counting - I view the change of FFP rules to allow increased debt as a splendid opportunity for him to invest in top-rate players bought from outside his 'network'.
The idea as some understand it was to operate within FFP by utilising the network and thereby through that efficiency, that others may not be able to
We can still do that. And we can now spend more on players' transfer fees and wages, which gives us an advantage over those clubs that can't afford to do so.
We can, but I fear you are missing the point. The point is that based on all the evidence we have, we won't. Roland Duchatelet has made that very clear.
Katrien Meire has also made it very clear that we have one of the smaller playing budgets in the Championship. Duchatelet's plan appears to have been to succeed despite this through a focus on youth development and insightful recruitment from Europe.
Even assuming that at the right time further investment in the playing squad might have been forthcoming, this strategy was always going to require very significant level of skill, in player recruitment, development and coaching, as well as a huge slice of luck, if it was to succeed. The bar is now likely to be even higher as clubs such as Bournemouth run budgets significantly larger than ours.
What Roland Duchatelet might be able to do isn't what matters. It's what he'll actually do that counts.
PS A question. What's the difference between Tony Jimenez and Roland Duchatelet? Jimenez was willing to spend money, but not able. Duchatelet is able, but not willing.
I made my point in full cognisance of Duchatelet's stated parsimony, Mundell. Yet he's perfectly entitled to change his strategy and take advantage of the greater debts allowable under the new rules. If we were to narrowly miss out on the play-offs on account of his persistence with young academy graduates in a threadbare squad, he'd have made a very serious error of judgement. My view is that he should spend to the limit on players who will give us the best possible chance of promotion.
So you think a businessman should just blow all his money on your hobby?
My hobby? A purchase price of £14m out of Duchatelet's personal fortune of £340m looks rather like his hobby.
Goodness, @Covered End has hacked into Airman's account
Anyway here is the basis for the £60m. I was wrong. It's actually £63.7m
Have you not noticed that Cardiff are in the Championship this season?
Do you think it is reasonable, healthy, sensible, whatever word you choose, that if we somehow get promoted we will suddenly jump from 3m to 64m plus in TV revenue? Don't you think that is exactly what attracts people like Jiminez , Cellino, Oyston to own Championship clubs, and for even those who are not out and out crooks to load their club with debt in pursuit of the money pot? Do you think it is reasonable that Cardiff get more than five times as much TV revenue as we do this season ? Blimey the Premiership itself is a Communist collective, compared to the Championship..
I think most fans are only dimly aware of such figures. If more of them are aware, more of them will realise that it is absolute madness.
No, I don't. But I do think most people would accept that the cost of competing in the PL and the commercial appeal of that league worldwide versus the commercial appeal of the Championship mean it is wholly reasonable that clubs at that level get substantially bigger TV payments than clubs in the Football League. So it's a question of degree, not one of the principle.
Of course. Richard Murray argued that point almost from the moment he arrived at the top table. It is recorded in Tom Bower's book. A pity you don't give him more credit for that.
You seem to be putting up a circular argument because if you believe as many do that RD bought Charlton to get his hands on the PL revenue - because that is the only sound business reason for doing so - then it follows that he wouldn't have done so without the reward being there.
I can't be sure, not having met the man, but I think RD looks simply for a return on investment. In which case if the financial reward for reaching the FAPL was half what it is, he'd still be interested. I guess that's why he has Ujpest. A Europa league place would bring him a decent % profit because his cost base there is relatively low.
What I am realistic enough to realise that with that kind of money at stake at the top of the game the chances of a) supporters mobilising to take action and b) the people who own the clubs being influenced is very low. The key consideration is that the gravy train keeps on running - despite you (and Richard Murray) endlessly predicting the end of the line for about 20 years. As long as PL grounds are full and the Sky and overseas rights money flows in, nothing will change and everything will be dictated by what happens at the top.
Well they are still full, but sadly out of the price range of many who used to be regulars. Worth noting too that the Bundesliga attendance is 20% higher. Different business model. More people, lower price per head. Sound familiar? Yes the money flows in, and flows out again via the bank accounts of players, their agents, and some dodgy owners. If you have decided to accept that as the status quo, that's up to you. However before railing against the failings of individual owners of CAFC, you need to consider the context of the business they are in, and what kind of people it will attract. It's unlikely that there is much enthusiasm for the Living Wage among the owners of pole dancing clubs
You bark at the moon if you like. It won't go away.
I'll keep on barking then. Even if the moon turns out to be the home of an unholy trinity comprising you, seriously_red and Rupert Murdoch.
Rather than speculate we should await results on the pitch and a club statement. A few more wins and the board are committed to signing "one or two quality players" Of course Staprix could accelerate investment but let us not forget that Staprix owns or is associated with six clubs - each and every one may have a case to "spend to the limit to max chances of promotion" or relevant prize. May I suggest that the optimum position is to aim for sixth place if we are up for it. A club statement, and those of other clubs along with the announcement about the new deal on parachute and solidarity payments will tell us a lot more than that which we know today.
Yet none of those other clubs can win promotion to the Premier League, with its disproportionate rewards, so you are undercutting your own argument.
I take your point and should be more precise: To guarantee promotion in this season requires a top two finish...90 points? To finish sixth requires 75 points and gives a 25% chance of promotion. I don't really rate the Championship but to travel from where we were in March to 2nd place is a rediculous proposition given we had c.10 senior professionals at end May. At that point in time, even suggesting 6th would be laughed out! We are now at a point where 6th is a realistic aspiration...but it guarantees nothing. However it does increase the value of the club and our stars are bright and shiny in the shop window. If this were a computer game one could throw money at PSG or someone else to boost the squad! It's not... It's real clubs, real players and the board have their biggest challenge to date: to land two quality players who have to hit the ground running. This might cost €5-10m and our competitors like Derby, Watford and Bournemouth have been building for two or three years - they too will have their chequebooks out.
Having said all that, we can see why the new deal has occurred. A few months after the Trust was formed @Stig did some great graphics for a piece by @Mundell Fleming Casino images against a backdrop of £7m average losses for championship clubs to play for the prize. Well the prize increased a year back such that Cardiff received more money in bottom place than Man Utd did for winning the title! So now Scudamore and 10-14 clubs have convinced 18 in total to increase the stake money! From £7m up to £13m We are fortunate that Staprix can afford to stay at the tables. Let us see what stake M.Duchatelet puts down in January?
Comments
Obviously if their chairman plans to blow the bank on a few top signings to get them back up the table, he suspects he will be in a minority who still prefered the original FFP system.
Sadly too many fans willing to risk their clubs future for short term gain.
I would be interested to learn more about the German league football changes, as from the little i know, they all seem to be positive for the clubs and fans.
Question for anyone who knows more, did the changes start with the fans or the German FA?
In Germany the fans' voice is inbuilt into the football structure, because of the "50+1" ownership system where at least 51% of ownership of the clubs is in the hands of members. And whenever someone, most recently the owner of Hannover 96, or Red Bull, try to advocate change to the rule, there are furious protests. The clubs are members of the Bundesliga, and the Bundesliga is a constituent of the German FA. So the changes came from the German FA, but the clubs, with their member ownership were signatories to it all, and may even have been the prime movers. It's not perfect there, Sky have successfully tampered with the fixture schedules, to general discontent, but it's a whole lot more cohesive than here.
I can't think of any good reason why the Germans should naturally be more sensible than the English, and why the English are not capable of learning from the German experience. A lot of people thought it was "pie in the sky" that we could return the club from Selhurst, forming a political party to do so if necessary. Perhaps English football needs the visionary and driven fans' leader that we had then. I wonder what happened to him…
Thanks for your notes on Brighton, GGA.
University of Greenwich sponsorship
Outsourcing catering
Vetokele
Gudmundsson
The combination of these pushes CAFC rapidly towards breakeven. As well as enabling the board to focus 100% on football and not losses or operational issues.
If ten clubs double their losses to compete only three will succeed...in fact only one or two since clubs relegated from the FAPL will take promotion places too.
It is therefore inevitable that some clubs will fail as in fall over.
We can watch from the side. As long as Staprix can keep sourcing talent we are good.
What I don't understand is why Watford didn't follow the cafc position. But the vote has gone and will be impossible to reverse.
The only rational course is to push on up the table. Sign young quality players who might be resold to fund the future.
Maybe you are right. But in that case we might as well all just give up. I just didn't think giving up was your style.
Anyway here is the basis for the £60m. I was wrong. It's actually £63.7m
I think most fans are only dimly aware of such figures. If more of them are aware, more of them will realise that it is absolute madness.
You seem to be putting up a circular argument because if you believe as many do that RD bought Charlton to get his hands on the PL revenue - because that is the only sound business reason for doing so - then it follows that he wouldn't have done so without the reward being there. And perhaps we were in financial trouble in the first place because of the inequality, but equally the club wasn't fantastically run or commercially viable in the past when these rewards didn't exist - see 1984 for example. It still needed rescuing from bankruptcy.
What I am realistic enough to realise that with that kind of money at stake at the top of the game the chances of a) supporters mobilising to take action and b) the people who own the clubs being influenced is very low. The key consideration is that the gravy train keeps on running - despite you (and Richard Murray) endlessly predicting the end of the line for about 20 years. As long as PL grounds are full and the Sky and overseas rights money flows in, nothing will change and everything will be dictated by what happens at the top.
You bark at the moon if you like. It won't go away.
In response to other posts:
Once again parachute money does not guarantee success. In fact it is a reward for failure and tempts FAPL clubs like us in the past into awarding long term contracts to players who can't hack it in the Championship.
There is an established pattern of failure and very few relegated clubs go straight back up. Cafc has not been commercially viable since the board and Pardew screwed up six years ago. Losing £7m a year with no prospect of promotion is a slow death.
Let us please make no mistake: M.Duchatelet, Vetokele and Gudmundsson are here because of the FAPL not their love of all things SE7! Those two players and Buyens(on loan) may well play for us in 2015-16 or be sold to pay the bills / they want to step up.
Reading had 10,000 empty seats on Saturday and they've been out of the FAPL for five minutes. Love Charlton and the Championship is a great competition but the skill and entertainment levels are nothing compared to the Premier League.
Artificially tampering with the market, "nationalising" the biggest football media deal in the world (2.5bn at the last count) will be expensive and handing control to the FA simply doesn't fly.
It may not be common knowledge but the FAPL belongs to the 20 member clubs. Owners borrow millions because of the guaranteed revenues for years to come. For sure not enough goes to grass roots and coaching but the FA have had two decades to address that!
The goalposts in the Championship have just been moved to assist the extension of a permanent set of yo-yo clubs. Brentford, Watford and Millwall were either frightened of losing £2m tv revenue or they actually fancy their chances! This is an FAPL 2 evolving in front of our eyes. Not formally. Just that the budget and skill to be in the top ten of the championship is going to require deep, deep pockets.
And some clubs voting yes are going to regret it big time.
Staprix has picked up a bargain and they have the skill and resources to chase the dream without risking the club. We have already seen a top six defence emerge and they will scout the players to improve the midfield and striker options.
The only reason the FAPL stops is if it stops being competitive. The parachute payments help the bottom clubs compete and there are different champions at the top most years. Contrast the other big European leagues which are two/three horse races year after year after year. Where else would a club with the stature of Man Utd start to fail?
Ironically it is the levels of debt which prevent ordinary fans participating. Staprix has a different model which does not involve burning millions. One day who knows...
Of course Staprix could accelerate investment but let us not forget that Staprix owns or is associated with six clubs - each and every one may have a case to "spend to the limit to max chances of promotion" or relevant prize. May I suggest that the optimum position is to aim for sixth place if we are up for it.
A club statement, and those of other clubs along with the announcement about the new deal on parachute and solidarity payments will tell us a lot more than that which we know today.
To guarantee promotion in this season requires a top two finish...90 points?
To finish sixth requires 75 points and gives a 25% chance of promotion.
I don't really rate the Championship but to travel from where we were in March to 2nd place is a rediculous proposition given we had c.10 senior professionals at end May. At that point in time, even suggesting 6th would be laughed out!
We are now at a point where 6th is a realistic aspiration...but it guarantees nothing. However it does increase the value of the club and our stars are bright and shiny in the shop window.
If this were a computer game one could throw money at PSG or someone else to boost the squad! It's not... It's real clubs, real players and the board have their biggest challenge to date: to land two quality players who have to hit the ground running. This might cost €5-10m and our competitors like Derby, Watford and Bournemouth have been building for two or three years - they too will have their chequebooks out.
Having said all that, we can see why the new deal has occurred. A few months after the Trust was formed @Stig did some great graphics for a piece by @Mundell Fleming Casino images against a backdrop of £7m average losses for championship clubs to play for the prize. Well the prize increased a year back such that Cardiff received more money in bottom place than Man Utd did for winning the title!
So now Scudamore and 10-14 clubs have convinced 18 in total to increase the stake money! From £7m up to £13m
We are fortunate that Staprix can afford to stay at the tables. Let us see what stake M.Duchatelet puts down in January?