I would just like to say I regret my earlier comments and fully take them back. My intentions were no to offend or hurt but i overreacted to a throwaway comment I took out of context. Apologies to all members and I have asked admin to eject me from the forum which would not be harsh. I hope peace can continue for all sides in all disagreements. I hope inner peace can be found for the families and friends of all victims of violence and war.
I would just like to say I regret my earlier comments and fully take them back. My intentions were no to offend or hurt but i overreacted to a throwaway comment I took out of context. Apologies to all members and I have asked admin to eject me from the forum which would not be harsh. I hope peace can continue for all sides in all disagreements. I hope inner peace can be found for the families and friends of all victims of violence and war.
don't be daft, we all are opinionated on here so no reason to beat yourself up about a comment on a forum. just expect some abuse if you say something controversial and be prepared to defend yourself, even if you were wrong, which you obviously were :-) no reason to leave.
I have to say that I am very much pro Palestinian because when it comes to picking sides in something like this I count the dead on each side and go from there.
The ground invasion of Gaza to block these tunnels (if real which I assume they are) is in my opinion actually legitimate as the tunnels posed the first proper threat to Israel in this conflict.
I've tried to keep off this thread too, as while I can see that the Israelis have suffered some major hits, the whole issue of Palestine puts me so far into the other camp my opinions are a bit one sided. However, I would defy any parent to look at the images of dead and wounded children and not say Israels actions are beyond belief. Yesterday, 298 innocent people died when a civil aircraft was downed by someone in eastern Ukraine. Sanctions are already being used against Russia, and if this turns out to be Moscow provoked, more may yet follow. Where are the sanctions against Israel? They act with impunity, so it continues.
I've tried to keep off this thread too, as while I can see that the Israelis have suffered some major hits, the whole issue of Palestine puts me so far into the other camp my opinions are a bit one sided. However, I would defy any parent to look at the images of dead and wounded children and not say Israels actions are beyond belief. Yesterday, 298 innocent people died when a civil aircraft was downed by someone in eastern Ukraine. Sanctions are already being used against Russia, and if this turns out to be Moscow provoked, more may yet follow. Where are the sanctions against Israel? They act with impunity, so it continues.
I do agree with the idea of proportionality. The proportionality of what happens in Gaza is akin to someone breaking into your house, so you batter the person until their face turns into jelly, then go to their house and kill their whole family, and then point to your broken window screaming for more vengeance.
I have to say that I am very much pro Palestinian because when it comes to picking sides in something like this I count the dead on each side and go from there.
The ground invasion of Gaza to block these tunnels (if real which I assume they are) is in my opinion actually legitimate as the tunnels posed the first proper threat to Israel in this conflict.
So if Russia has caused the death of 300 odd people, you are on Ukraine’s side but if Ukraine blows up a Russian plane with 400 you will be on Russia’s side.
Thinking like that is why dead bodies are an asset in the propaganda war. Hamas clearly regards its people as more disposable than Israel does, so is winning the propaganda war with support from the body counters.
The solution will be through supporting a political solution, not by supporting the side that's losing the body counting competition.
I have to say that I am very much pro Palestinian because when it comes to picking sides in something like this I count the dead on each side and go from there.
The ground invasion of Gaza to block these tunnels (if real which I assume they are) is in my opinion actually legitimate as the tunnels posed the first proper threat to Israel in this conflict.
So if Russia has caused the death of 300 odd people, you are on Ukraine’s side but if Ukraine blows up a Russian plane with 400 you will be on Russia’s side.
Thinking like that is why dead bodies are an asset in the propaganda war. Hamas clearly regards its people as more disposable than Israel does, so is winning the propaganda war with support from the body counters.
The solution will be through supporting a political solution, not by supporting the side that's losing the body counting competition.
Dead bodies are definitely an asset in a propaganda war, three kidnapped Israeli's that was used as justification for starting this war show that. The response however is not proportionate. You have to look at loss of life as a barometer for these things or you would have no sense of proportion.
Hamas may to some extent view its people as disposable, but nowhere near as much as the Israelis clearly do.
Worth looking at for reference... Israelis sitting, watching and cheering bombs, which inevitably mean deaths.
The plight of the Palestinians is one that it would be near impossible to feel sympathy for, if you took the words Jew, holocaust, anti semite, Muslim, Israel and Palestine out of the argument. If you instead were told an analogy of two hypothetical peoples, without the history that the Jews have suffered, I think you would find the vast majority of people would believe in intervention in the region.
Most people have made their minds up on the subject before they even see the facts. They are either pro Israel, in which case they dismiss everyone as an anti semite, an anti semite, in which case they hate Israel, or somewhere in the middle, where it is difficult to make yourself heard over those who shout the loudest, who cheer their side on like a football team.
I must say though this thread has not been like that and has been a very, very grown up discussion for the most part.
Did I really read that Barrack Obama asked the Israelis to try to keep innocent victims to a minimum? (Translated from the spanish). Is there any other context on the planet apart from Palestine where an american president would see that as appropriate? And the yankd wonder why they are loathed in the middle east.
great, cant wait for the frothing of the mouth from the left now.
this should be fun, where is tropics?
I don't understand this generalisation. Many of my political views would be considered to be somewhere to the right of Ronald Reagan but that doesn't stop me concluding that Israel is an abomination which commits war crimes with impunity.
I've tried to keep off this thread too, as while I can see that the Israelis have suffered some major hits, the whole issue of Palestine puts me so far into the other camp my opinions are a bit one sided. However, I would defy any parent to look at the images of dead and wounded children and not say Israels actions are beyond belief. Yesterday, 298 innocent people died when a civil aircraft was downed by someone in eastern Ukraine. Sanctions are already being used against Russia, and if this turns out to be Moscow provoked, more may yet follow. Where are the sanctions against Israel? They act with impunity, so it continues.
I do agree with the idea of proportionality. The proportionality of what happens in Gaza is akin to someone breaking into your house, so you batter the person until their face turns into jelly, then go to their house and kill their whole family, and then point to your broken window screaming for more vengeance.
More like someone breaks into your house every day and refuses to stop. I agree about proportionality but the fact remains the Hamas could have stopped the air strikes at any point by agreeing to stop firing rockets into Israel.
I've tried to keep off this thread too, as while I can see that the Israelis have suffered some major hits, the whole issue of Palestine puts me so far into the other camp my opinions are a bit one sided. However, I would defy any parent to look at the images of dead and wounded children and not say Israels actions are beyond belief. Yesterday, 298 innocent people died when a civil aircraft was downed by someone in eastern Ukraine. Sanctions are already being used against Russia, and if this turns out to be Moscow provoked, more may yet follow. Where are the sanctions against Israel? They act with impunity, so it continues.
I do agree with the idea of proportionality. The proportionality of what happens in Gaza is akin to someone breaking into your house, so you batter the person until their face turns into jelly, then go to their house and kill their whole family, and then point to your broken window screaming for more vengeance.
More like someone breaks into your house every day and refuses to stop. I agree about proportionality but the fact remains the Hamas could have stopped the air strikes at any point by agreeing to stop firing rockets into Israel.
The fact also remains that Israel could have stopped the rocket attacks at any time by agreeing to hand back the land it occupies in breach of international law, by ceasing to build settlements exclusively for Jewish families on land stolen from Palestinians.
This from the Independent: "Jewish settlers, who claim a divine right to the whole of Israel, now control more than 42 per cent of the occupied West Bank, representing a powerful obstacle to the creation of a Palestinian state, a new report has revealed.
The jurisdiction of some 200 settlements, illegal under international law, cover much more of the occupied Palestinian territory than previously thought. And a large section of the land has been seized from private Palestinian landowners in defiance even of an Israeli supreme court ruling, the report said, a finding which sits uncomfortably with Israeli claims that it builds only on state land."
You see, Jints, your analogy would be more accurate if you'd said someone breaking in to their own house every day to try to get it back from squatters and refusing to stop. What would you do if it was your house and your land? Just let the thieving bastards get on with it?
its not only taking away the land but also destroying it, 800,00 ancient olive tree's, national parks and farming land have all been turned into rubble and building plots
I have to say that I am very much pro Palestinian because when it comes to picking sides in something like this I count the dead on each side and go from there.
The ground invasion of Gaza to block these tunnels (if real which I assume they are) is in my opinion actually legitimate as the tunnels posed the first proper threat to Israel in this conflict.
Fair enough. Pro Iraqi, Pro Afghanistan, Pro Northern Ireland.....like it. Ba the Israelis, and the Ukranians, and the Ruskis, and the Americans........there's heaps more.
I've tried to keep off this thread too, as while I can see that the Israelis have suffered some major hits, the whole issue of Palestine puts me so far into the other camp my opinions are a bit one sided. However, I would defy any parent to look at the images of dead and wounded children and not say Israels actions are beyond belief. Yesterday, 298 innocent people died when a civil aircraft was downed by someone in eastern Ukraine. Sanctions are already being used against Russia, and if this turns out to be Moscow provoked, more may yet follow. Where are the sanctions against Israel? They act with impunity, so it continues.
I do agree with the idea of proportionality. The proportionality of what happens in Gaza is akin to someone breaking into your house, so you batter the person until their face turns into jelly, then go to their house and kill their whole family, and then point to your broken window screaming for more vengeance.
More like someone breaks into your house every day and refuses to stop. I agree about proportionality but the fact remains the Hamas could have stopped the air strikes at any point by agreeing to stop firing rockets into Israel.
The fact also remains that Israel could have stopped the rocket attacks at any time by agreeing to hand back the land it occupies in breach of international law, by ceasing to build settlements exclusively for Jewish families on land stolen from Palestinians.
This from the Independent: "Jewish settlers, who claim a divine right to the whole of Israel, now control more than 42 per cent of the occupied West Bank, representing a powerful obstacle to the creation of a Palestinian state, a new report has revealed.
The jurisdiction of some 200 settlements, illegal under international law, cover much more of the occupied Palestinian territory than previously thought. And a large section of the land has been seized from private Palestinian landowners in defiance even of an Israeli supreme court ruling, the report said, a finding which sits uncomfortably with Israeli claims that it builds only on state land."
You see, Jints, your analogy would be more accurate if you'd said someone breaking in to their own house every day to try to get it back from squatters and refusing to stop. What would you do if it was your house and your land? Just let the thieving bastards get on with it?
This is a very complicated subject which, inevitably, polarises opinion. Moreover, it's hard to be objective when assessing developments because we are all profoundly influenced by the baggage we've accumulated over time.
Against that background though, I have to say that the perspective you've set out here is, righty or wrongly, where I start too and that dictates where my sympathies lie.
However, as I'm sure you know, while in the short-term Israel could indeed secure a cease fire by doing as you say, that would not be the end or even the beginning of the end. There are some who will not rest until Israel no longer appears on the map. They simply don't believe Israel has a right to exist. (If you fly to Saudi by British Midland, for example, you'll find that Israel is not on the map used to show the progress of the flight).
While that perspective is understandable it is now completely unreasonable and therein lies the intractability of the problem created by the post WW2 partitioning of Palestine. It is entirely possible that the wounds created in the Middle East by that decision will fester until the end of time, creating ongoing geopolitical fractures and perhaps even Armageddon.
Being more optimistic, it is, nevertheless, clear that progress will require Israel to give back occupied territory. More bluntly, Israel will need to be seen to "lose" and to have been forced to do so by the international community. Only then will there be any hope of a shift in the "high ground" with moderate Arab opinion having a chance to win the day against the extremists, on the grounds that the Palestinian nation and it's peoples at least have a stake (stake and a state) and a future. Israel's understandable paranoia will always view such a scenario as a huge risk, understandably, but the state of Israel will remain a pariah in the eyes of many until they cross that rubicon.
Just my take, but I'm no expert.
By the way, on Israeli participation in world sport, my own view is that FIFA should insist (or be told to) that Israel be part of the Asian Football Confederation and not UEFA. I don't think for one minute that this would make any difference in the grand scheme of things, but the messaging is right. Today young people in Israel can take the view that it's the Asian Football Confederation that is at fault and that UEFA and it's members agree, enabling Israeli footballers to perform on the world stage. I'm not sure that's the right messaging though and I don't think Europe should be taking sides in this way.
I'm very much on israels side. I couldn't careless who's land israel belongs to. The Jews inhabit it now and they have reason to believe that land was the birth place of their god. The un also gave them that land.
All Jews were happy enough to live with Arabs in israel but the extremist Arabs have other clear ideas which is making sure Jews are vanished from the earth.
Israel leaders have given Palestinians clear warning, some refuse to listen which is their problem. Hamas have clearly indicated to it's citizens to stay put and die and honourable death which they have foolishly believed.
I'm very much on israels side. I couldn't careless who's land israel belongs to. The Jews inhabit it now and they have reason to believe that land was the birth place of their god. The un also gave them that land.
All Jews were happy enough to live with Arabs in israel but the extremist Arabs have other clear ideas which is making sure Jews are vanished from the earth.
Israel leaders have given Palestinians clear warning, some refuse to listen which is their problem. Hamas have clearly indicated to it's citizens to stay put and die and honourable death which they have foolishly believed.
I dont mean to be rude but this is the most ill informed few paragraphs I have ever read on the Arab Israeli conflict. I can handle people having a different opinion but "all Jews were happy enough to live with Arabs in Israel" come on...
And if someone warned you they were going to bomb your house and then did, would you just go "ah they gave me fair warning, my fault!" You then have to answer the question where should the Palestinians flee to when israel controls all their borders?
As for the UN giving the Israelis the land, yes they gave them a portion of it but Israel has grown beyond what the UN determine legal, so as it stands Israel are in breach of international law with the illegal settlements.
And as for the aim to wipe all Israelis off the earth, an Israeli minister yesterday accused Arabs of "self genocide" as if to claim its the civilians own fault they are getting massacred. Where were these Palestinians supposed to flee to?
Hamas are definitely not the best ruling party the Palestinians could have, but they provide the only welfare state the Palestinians have.
Also with regards to the fair warning, I guess we can condone any IRA bomb where someone died where they rang a warning in first as fair enough, and perhaps more relevant to Israel, the bombing of the king David hotel which killed 91, many of whom were British.http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_David_Hotel_bombing
Let me also ask you this. If Palestine had fired a rocket which killed 4 israeli children playing football on a beach, what do you think Israel would do?
I'm very much on israels side. I couldn't careless who's land israel belongs to. The Jews inhabit it now and they have reason to believe that land was the birth place of their god. The un also gave them that land.
All Jews were happy enough to live with Arabs in israel but the extremist Arabs have other clear ideas which is making sure Jews are vanished from the earth.
Israel leaders have given Palestinians clear warning, some refuse to listen which is their problem. Hamas have clearly indicated to it's citizens to stay put and die and honourable death which they have foolishly believed.
differing views aside zero jaay, your simplistic misinformation is spellbinding! i encourage you and anyone who is genuinely interested in a regional 101 view, free of my impassioned hyperbole, to go to the even-handed & insightful writings of (maidstone's own) robert fisk who has lived and breathed this area for over 35 years.
I'm very much on israels side. I couldn't careless who's land israel belongs to. The Jews inhabit it now and they have reason to believe that land was the birth place of their god. The un also gave them that land.
All Jews were happy enough to live with Arabs in israel but the extremist Arabs have other clear ideas which is making sure Jews are vanished from the earth.
Israel leaders have given Palestinians clear warning, some refuse to listen which is their problem. Hamas have clearly indicated to it's citizens to stay put and die and honourable death which they have foolishly believed.
Israel have never been happy with the UN agreement and hence have continued to take land and stop the freedom of Palestinan people moving around and living in there own country.
If another country said it was bombing London would you expect all civilians to leave and if they were killed say it was there own fault. ?
Personally, I'd like to see the UK stop selling arms to Israel. I know they are one of our largest clients, and that we do rather well in this line of work..but it may help...it wont happen, but I do like to dream.
Yeah they have one bigger supplier than the UK...we do do pretty well out of it, and even if they do - I'd rather we stopped a lot of our arms dealing...but that's another thread I guess.
Gerald Kaufman speech in the house. Interesting aspect.
Reminds me of the first occasion I had reason to be at an anti Israel,Pro Palestine march in London. At the front of march were several Jews alongside the main organisers who greeted each other with hugs and obvious friendship and respect. Many other Jews, especially young boys were throughout the crowd. First time I learn't that there are many anti Israeli Jews. Had never even occurred to me that would be possible before then and to me it says a lot about the argument and influences my feelings on it.
Watching the news now. Unbelievable. Absolutely disgusting. Israel is an insult to the memory of the Jews who died in the holocaust. I am now of the opinion that Israel does not have the right to exist in that region.
Comments
I would just like to say I regret my earlier comments and fully take them back. My intentions were no to offend or hurt but i overreacted to a throwaway comment I took out of context.
Apologies to all members and I have asked admin to eject me from the forum which would not be harsh.
I hope peace can continue for all sides in all disagreements.
I hope inner peace can be found for the families and friends of all victims of violence and war.
http://www.aa.com.tr/live1/gaza-live.html
Live stream of Gaza.
no reason to leave.
The ground invasion of Gaza to block these tunnels (if real which I assume they are) is in my opinion actually legitimate as the tunnels posed the first proper threat to Israel in this conflict.
Yesterday, 298 innocent people died when a civil aircraft was downed by someone in eastern Ukraine. Sanctions are already being used against Russia, and if this turns out to be Moscow provoked, more may yet follow. Where are the sanctions against Israel? They act with impunity, so it continues.
Thinking like that is why dead bodies are an asset in the propaganda war. Hamas clearly regards its people as more disposable than Israel does, so is winning the propaganda war with support from the body counters.
The solution will be through supporting a political solution, not by supporting the side that's losing the body counting competition.
Hamas may to some extent view its people as disposable, but nowhere near as much as the Israelis clearly do.
https://www.oximity.com/article/Theater-of-War-Photo-Captures-Israelis-1
Worth looking at for reference... Israelis sitting, watching and cheering bombs, which inevitably mean deaths.
The plight of the Palestinians is one that it would be near impossible to feel sympathy for, if you took the words Jew, holocaust, anti semite, Muslim, Israel and Palestine out of the argument. If you instead were told an analogy of two hypothetical peoples, without the history that the Jews have suffered, I think you would find the vast majority of people would believe in intervention in the region.
Most people have made their minds up on the subject before they even see the facts. They are either pro Israel, in which case they dismiss everyone as an anti semite, an anti semite, in which case they hate Israel, or somewhere in the middle, where it is difficult to make yourself heard over those who shout the loudest, who cheer their side on like a football team.
I must say though this thread has not been like that and has been a very, very grown up discussion for the most part.
This from the Independent: "Jewish settlers, who claim a divine right to the whole of Israel, now control more than 42 per cent of the occupied West Bank, representing a powerful obstacle to the creation of a Palestinian state, a new report has revealed.
The jurisdiction of some 200 settlements, illegal under international law, cover much more of the occupied Palestinian territory than previously thought. And a large section of the land has been seized from private Palestinian landowners in defiance even of an Israeli supreme court ruling, the report said, a finding which sits uncomfortably with Israeli claims that it builds only on state land."
You see, Jints, your analogy would be more accurate if you'd said someone breaking in to their own house every day to try to get it back from squatters and refusing to stop.
What would you do if it was your house and your land? Just let the thieving bastards get on with it?
Ba the Israelis, and the Ukranians, and the Ruskis, and the Americans........there's heaps more.
Against that background though, I have to say that the perspective you've set out here is, righty or wrongly, where I start too and that dictates where my sympathies lie.
However, as I'm sure you know, while in the short-term Israel could indeed secure a cease fire by doing as you say, that would not be the end or even the beginning of the end. There are some who will not rest until Israel no longer appears on the map. They simply don't believe Israel has a right to exist. (If you fly to Saudi by British Midland, for example, you'll find that Israel is not on the map used to show the progress of the flight).
While that perspective is understandable it is now completely unreasonable and therein lies the intractability of the problem created by the post WW2 partitioning of Palestine. It is entirely possible that the wounds created in the Middle East by that decision will fester until the end of time, creating ongoing geopolitical fractures and perhaps even Armageddon.
Being more optimistic, it is, nevertheless, clear that progress will require Israel to give back occupied territory. More bluntly, Israel will need to be seen to "lose" and to have been forced to do so by the international community. Only then will there be any hope of a shift in the "high ground" with moderate Arab opinion having a chance to win the day against the extremists, on the grounds that the Palestinian nation and it's peoples at least have a stake (stake and a state) and a future. Israel's understandable paranoia will always view such a scenario as a huge risk, understandably, but the state of Israel will remain a pariah in the eyes of many until they cross that rubicon.
Just my take, but I'm no expert.
By the way, on Israeli participation in world sport, my own view is that FIFA should insist
(or be told to) that Israel be part of the Asian Football Confederation and not UEFA. I don't think for one minute that this would make any difference in the grand scheme of things, but the messaging is right. Today young people in Israel can take the view that it's the Asian Football Confederation that is at fault and that UEFA and it's members agree, enabling Israeli footballers to perform on the world stage. I'm not sure that's the right messaging though and I don't think Europe should be taking sides in this way.
I couldn't careless who's land israel belongs to. The Jews inhabit it now and they have reason to believe that land was the birth place of their god. The un also gave them that land.
All Jews were happy enough to live with Arabs in israel but the extremist Arabs have other clear ideas which is making sure Jews are vanished from the earth.
Israel leaders have given Palestinians clear warning, some refuse to listen which is their problem. Hamas have clearly indicated to it's citizens to stay put and die and honourable death which they have foolishly believed.
And if someone warned you they were going to bomb your house and then did, would you just go "ah they gave me fair warning, my fault!" You then have to answer the question where should the Palestinians flee to when israel controls all their borders?
As for the UN giving the Israelis the land, yes they gave them a portion of it but Israel has grown beyond what the UN determine legal, so as it stands Israel are in breach of international law with the illegal settlements.
And as for the aim to wipe all Israelis off the earth, an Israeli minister yesterday accused Arabs of "self genocide" as if to claim its the civilians own fault they are getting massacred. Where were these Palestinians supposed to flee to?
Hamas are definitely not the best ruling party the Palestinians could have, but they provide the only welfare state the Palestinians have.
Also with regards to the fair warning, I guess we can condone any IRA bomb where someone died where they rang a warning in first as fair enough, and perhaps more relevant to Israel, the bombing of the king David hotel which killed 91, many of whom were British.http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_David_Hotel_bombing
Let me also ask you this. If Palestine had fired a rocket which killed 4 israeli children playing football on a beach, what do you think Israel would do?
http://www.worldliteraturetoday.org/2012/may/no-ordinary-place-writers-and-writing-occupied-palestine-rima-najjar-merriman#.U8ypHVaYYds
Israel have never been happy with the UN agreement and hence have continued to take land and stop the freedom of Palestinan people moving around and living in there own country.
If another country said it was bombing London would you expect all civilians to leave and if they were killed say it was there own fault. ?
They'd just buy them from elsewhere.
Palestinian fatalities referred to as 'others' as if they're less important.
Gerald Kaufman speech in the house. Interesting aspect.
Reminds me of the first occasion I had reason to be at an anti Israel,Pro Palestine march in London. At the front of march were several Jews alongside the main organisers who greeted each other with hugs and obvious friendship and respect. Many other Jews, especially young boys were throughout the crowd. First time I learn't that there are many anti Israeli Jews. Had never even occurred to me that would be possible before then and to me it says a lot about the argument and influences my feelings on it.