Not possible IMHO to be a threat in this division and break even, can only see us being a selling club and very lucky to stay up each year if we don't spend...
"It’s been ain interesting an exciting week, which began with an excellent win down in the capital against Charlton Athletic, a team now owned by a Belgium who also owns four other clubs in Spain, Hungary and two in his native country!
I did manage to chat to their new owners briefly and although I’m not necessarily a fan of foreign ownership, I have a say he seemed to have some good plans for the club; the main one being to become self-sustaining and to break even next season.
It’s fair to say he definitely appears to be in it for the long haul, which is to be admired.
Strangely, although he lives in Belgium he commutes to Charlton on Eurostar and his journey time to Charlton (two and a half hours) is less than mine from my home in Hertfordshire to Burnley. The wonders of modern transportation! "
It is depressing when Burnley fans are getting more of an insight as to the Charlton owner's plans than our fans are.
Good news that he "definitely appears" to be in it for the long haul but how are we going to break even next season, even in the championship? We're not putting season ticket prices up so it can't be by increasing incoming so that leaves cutting costs or selling players?
Maybe there is some other way we're going to break even next season or the Burnley Chairman has got it wrong but wouldn't it be nice if our club told its own fans about it.
PS I do feel for our Comms teams, programmes to fill, websites to populate, twitter to feed and the news goes to the Burnley programme.
Although there is a smiley, there is deadly serious point there. One of the questions I believe we should ask is "what does break even mean, when you are part of a network? "
Does it mean that the network - Staprix - breaks even, or each individual club? Every one of the clubs?
If each club is expected to break even, then it means that the local management have to have complete autonomy to manage, provided they break even. Currently it is not clear how this will work, if, as it seems, Charlton took onto their books several players which the management probably would not have chosen for the task in hand. Who pays the wages of these players? The extreme example is Polish Pete. In this case it seems we paid a significant transfer fee, and, if you believe the thread on him running now, we pay his wages while he "settles in" .
There may be some joined up financial thinking going on here, but I am struggling to see it, and I doubt we will understand until RD explains it. And if he doesn't choose to explain it, then he cannot complain if he gets criticism which he might consider to be ignorant. He may not care about that either, but sooner or later this translates into gate revenue.
Don't understand why anyone would want to run a business to break even particularly a football club (maybe very short term) so can't see that.
You either run it to be successful in terms of silverware, or because you have a passion for the club or you run it to make a profit.
Can not really see RD in the first 2 categories, so surely he is running it to make money, either by investing money & winning things, then sell the club at a profit or by bringing the youth through & selling players.
With the noises made so far I know what one I think he will do, but just my opinion of course.
It is depressing when Burnley fans are getting more of an insight as to the Charlton owner's plans than our fans are.
Good news that he "definitely appears" to be in it for the long haul but how are we going to break even next season, even in the championship? We're not putting season ticket prices up so it can't be by increasing incoming so that leaves cutting costs or selling players?
Maybe there is some other way we're going to break even next season or the Burnley Chairman has got it wrong but wouldn't it be nice if our club told its own fans about it.
PS I do feel for our Comms teams, programmes to fill, websites to populate, twitter to feed and the news goes to the Burnley programme.
I think criticism of RD for not communicating is unfair. I think he's actually been quite open with us since he came in - can't see the previous owners putting a 10 minute interview on the website. Is there anything at all in this Burnley article that we didn't already know? Ever since RD arrived he's been telling us that he plans to run the club on a sensible, stable financial footing, which of course in the short term means moving to a break-even position. (I agree with Hartleypete that breaking even doesn't make sense as a long-term objective, but if you take over a loss-making business it has to be the first step).
Is he going to make public his detailed business plan explaining exactly where he's planning to cut costs? Of course not - no business would for a whole host of reasons from alienating employees to undermining negotiations with suppliers. The important thing is he's been quite open and honest (IMO) about his high level strategy and the direction in which he wants to take the club.
Finally, I think it's a sad situation when a club owner takes criticism for wanting to make a club self-sustaining. The 'invest and win things' mentality only works for the mega-rich - for everyone else it's a disaster and there are countless examples to prove it. We used to have a reputation for being a well-run club which we were all proud of - and I would much rather have this than an FA Cup win followed by years rotting in League 2.
Perhaps because they (the previous owners) knew they weren't going to be around long but what they did do is sign up a to a joint statement with CAS Trust, they could easily have told us to sod off. They also embarked on a number of initiatives, limited in scope but certainly a starting point.
After an initial flurry of meet and greets, there is now no collaborative effort in place with the CAFC management.
The ST consultation was very limited and not of the format we (CAS Trust) preferred being a smaller 'target' style group, that broke out to a larger consultation).
I am however hoping this is a temporary lull during the transition period and of course avoiding relegation being a focus - we will as a Trust keep asking (and have been), just like we did before.
It is depressing when Burnley fans are getting more of an insight as to the Charlton owner's plans than our fans are.
Good news that he "definitely appears" to be in it for the long haul but how are we going to break even next season, even in the championship? We're not putting season ticket prices up so it can't be by increasing incoming so that leaves cutting costs or selling players?
Maybe there is some other way we're going to break even next season or the Burnley Chairman has got it wrong but wouldn't it be nice if our club told its own fans about it.
PS I do feel for our Comms teams, programmes to fill, websites to populate, twitter to feed and the news goes to the Burnley programme.
I think criticism of RD for not communicating is unfair. I think he's actually been quite open with us since he came in - can't see the previous owners putting a 10 minute interview on the website. Is there anything at all in this Burnley article that we didn't already know? Ever since RD arrived he's been telling us that he plans to run the club on a sensible, stable financial footing, which of course in the short term means moving to a break-even position. (I agree with Hartleypete that breaking even doesn't make sense as a long-term objective, but if you take over a loss-making business it has to be the first step).
Is he going to make public his detailed business plan explaining exactly where he's planning to cut costs? Of course not - no business would for a whole host of reasons from alienating employees to undermining negotiations with suppliers. The important thing is he's been quite open and honest (IMO) about his high level strategy and the direction in which he wants to take the club.
Finally, I think it's a sad situation when a club owner takes criticism for wanting to make a club self-sustaining. The 'invest and win things' mentality only works for the mega-rich - for everyone else it's a disaster and there are countless examples to prove it. We used to have a reputation for being a well-run club which we were all proud of - and I would much rather have this than an FA Cup win followed by years rotting in League 2.
If you compare anyone with TJ and MS they are going to come out looking good. I'm not knocking RD, I've said before I think he'll be good for the club in the long run but this should be in our programme, not theirs (I doubt RD expected a casual conversation to be repeated like this).
Yes, RD has hinted that he wants the club to break even but I've not seen anywhere that that is going to be from NEXT SEASON. That is crucial bit of info here and it came not in one of those videos but in the Burnley programme.
Nor did we know that RD plans to be around in the LONG TERM. Again a key bit of info we've not had before. As I said very welcome news to me but how long is "long term"?
I have no problem with the club being "self-sustaining" (your words, the Burnley chairman said "break even") but the question I asked is HOW? As I said it's not by increasing ST prices so how will we pay for the pitch, the new academy building, strengthen the squad so we can at least compete and still break even?
Does RD mean comply with FFP or does he mean we won't spend more than we earn. If the latter then there is something around £5m of cuts to be made. And as the largest cost in players wages it has to nearly all come from there. Lots of players we could release but that could leave the squad very thin and weak. Can we rely of Polish Pete, Reza and the academy kids next year?
no one is asking for every single figure from the business plan but why can't he share more than he has which is next to nothing.
I disagree that he's been quite open about his high level strategy. What is it? There is a network but each club is run locally? How does that work? We're not a feeder club but players can move between clubs? How does that work? We're going to break even? How? Sell players, cut wages?, run on a much smaller squad, increase sponsorship or some or all of the above. We just don't know because he hasn't told us.
As much as I like to know what is going on, I'm not sure there is any need for the club to provide more than the web site, program and twitter. I also think that there are very few other clubs that have much more access to the owners (and players and management) than we do.
As much as I want the Trust to be successful I'm not sure that PR needs to be routed through it. The club has access to more, and much better funded, resources that the Trust does and if there is a message to put out I think the club would reach more fans by using their own media than using the Trust's.
It is depressing when Burnley fans are getting more of an insight as to the Charlton owner's plans than our fans are.
Good news that he "definitely appears" to be in it for the long haul but how are we going to break even next season, even in the championship? We're not putting season ticket prices up so it can't be by increasing incoming so that leaves cutting costs or selling players?
Maybe there is some other way we're going to break even next season or the Burnley Chairman has got it wrong but wouldn't it be nice if our club told its own fans about it.
PS I do feel for our Comms teams, programmes to fill, websites to populate, twitter to feed and the news goes to the Burnley programme.
I think criticism of RD for not communicating is unfair. I think he's actually been quite open with us since he came in - can't see the previous owners putting a 10 minute interview on the website. Is there anything at all in this Burnley article that we didn't already know? Ever since RD arrived he's been telling us that he plans to run the club on a sensible, stable financial footing, which of course in the short term means moving to a break-even position. (I agree with Hartleypete that breaking even doesn't make sense as a long-term objective, but if you take over a loss-making business it has to be the first step).
Is he going to make public his detailed business plan explaining exactly where he's planning to cut costs? Of course not - no business would for a whole host of reasons from alienating employees to undermining negotiations with suppliers. The important thing is he's been quite open and honest (IMO) about his high level strategy and the direction in which he wants to take the club.
Finally, I think it's a sad situation when a club owner takes criticism for wanting to make a club self-sustaining. The 'invest and win things' mentality only works for the mega-rich - for everyone else it's a disaster and there are countless examples to prove it. We used to have a reputation for being a well-run club which we were all proud of - and I would much rather have this than an FA Cup win followed by years rotting in League 2.
If you compare anyone with TJ and MS they are going to come out looking good.
Yes, RD has hinted that he wants the club to break even but I've not seen anywhere that that is going to be from NEXT SEASON. That is crucial bit of info here and it came not in one of those videos but in the Burnley programme.
Nor did we know that RD plans to be around in the LONG TERM. Again a key bit of info we've not had before.
I have no problem with the club being "self-sustaining" (your words, the Burnley chairman said "break even") but the question I asked is HOW? As I said it's not by increasing ST prices so how will we pay for the pitch, the new academy building, strengthen the squad so we can at least compete and still break even?
no one is asking for every single figure from the business plan but why can't he share more than he has which is next to nothing.
I disagree that he's been quite open about his high level strategy. What is it? There is a network but each club is run locally? How does that work? We're not a feeder club but players can move between clubs? How does that work? We're going to break even? How? Sell players, cut wages?, run on a much smaller squad, increase sponsorship or some or all of the above. We just don't know because he hasn't told us.
And I don't suppose for one minute that he ever will.
As much as I like to know what is going on, I'm not sure there is any need for the club to provide more than the web site, program and twitter. I also think that there are very few other clubs that have much more access to the owners (and players and management) than we do.
As much as I want the Trust to be successful I'm not sure that PR needs to be routed through it. The club has access to more, and much better funded, resources that the Trust does and if there is a message to put out I think the club would reach more fans by using their own media than using the Trust's.
I don't think its about numbers or outlets so much but more about partnership and collaboration
It is depressing when Burnley fans are getting more of an insight as to the Charlton owner's plans than our fans are.
Good news that he "definitely appears" to be in it for the long haul but how are we going to break even next season, even in the championship? We're not putting season ticket prices up so it can't be by increasing incoming so that leaves cutting costs or selling players?
Maybe there is some other way we're going to break even next season or the Burnley Chairman has got it wrong but wouldn't it be nice if our club told its own fans about it.
PS I do feel for our Comms teams, programmes to fill, websites to populate, twitter to feed and the news goes to the Burnley programme.
I think criticism of RD for not communicating is unfair. I think he's actually been quite open with us since he came in - can't see the previous owners putting a 10 minute interview on the website. Is there anything at all in this Burnley article that we didn't already know? Ever since RD arrived he's been telling us that he plans to run the club on a sensible, stable financial footing, which of course in the short term means moving to a break-even position. (I agree with Hartleypete that breaking even doesn't make sense as a long-term objective, but if you take over a loss-making business it has to be the first step).
Is he going to make public his detailed business plan explaining exactly where he's planning to cut costs? Of course not - no business would for a whole host of reasons from alienating employees to undermining negotiations with suppliers. The important thing is he's been quite open and honest (IMO) about his high level strategy and the direction in which he wants to take the club.
Finally, I think it's a sad situation when a club owner takes criticism for wanting to make a club self-sustaining. The 'invest and win things' mentality only works for the mega-rich - for everyone else it's a disaster and there are countless examples to prove it. We used to have a reputation for being a well-run club which we were all proud of - and I would much rather have this than an FA Cup win followed by years rotting in League 2.
If you compare anyone with TJ and MS they are going to come out looking good.
Yes, RD has hinted that he wants the club to break even but I've not seen anywhere that that is going to be from NEXT SEASON. That is crucial bit of info here and it came not in one of those videos but in the Burnley programme.
Nor did we know that RD plans to be around in the LONG TERM. Again a key bit of info we've not had before.
I have no problem with the club being "self-sustaining" (your words, the Burnley chairman said "break even") but the question I asked is HOW? As I said it's not by increasing ST prices so how will we pay for the pitch, the new academy building, strengthen the squad so we can at least compete and still break even?
no one is asking for every single figure from the business plan but why can't he share more than he has which is next to nothing.
I disagree that he's been quite open about his high level strategy. What is it? There is a network but each club is run locally? How does that work? We're not a feeder club but players can move between clubs? How does that work? We're going to break even? How? Sell players, cut wages?, run on a much smaller squad, increase sponsorship or some or all of the above. We just don't know because he hasn't told us.
And I don't suppose for one minute that he ever will.
Maybe not but that is no reason to stop asking IMO
As much as I like to know what is going on, I'm not sure there is any need for the club to provide more than the web site, program and twitter. I also think that there are very few other clubs that have much more access to the owners (and players and management) than we do.
As much as I want the Trust to be successful I'm not sure that PR needs to be routed through it. The club has access to more, and much better funded, resources that the Trust does and if there is a message to put out I think the club would reach more fans by using their own media than using the Trust's.
I agree.
But having the OS, Twitter, the programme etc then use them pro-actively to inform, promote, encourage. Sell the vision (sic), get people on board figuratively and financially, talk up the good news to lessen the blow of the bad news (we might be struggling on the pitch but we are investing in the future).
"It’s been ain interesting an exciting week, which began with an excellent win down in the capital against Charlton Athletic, a team now owned by a Belgium who also owns four other clubs in Spain, Hungary and two in his native country!
I did manage to chat to their new owners briefly and although I’m not necessarily a fan of foreign ownership, I have a say he seemed to have some good plans for the club; the main one being to become self-sustaining and to break even next season.
It’s fair to say he definitely appears to be in it for the long haul, which is to be admired.
Strangely, although he lives in Belgium he commutes to Charlton on Eurostar and his journey time to Charlton (two and a half hours) is less than mine from my home in Hertfordshire to Burnley. The wonders of modern transportation! "
It is depressing when Burnley fans are getting more of an insight as to the Charlton owner's plans than our fans are.
Good news that he "definitely appears" to be in it for the long haul but how are we going to break even next season, even in the championship? We're not putting season ticket prices up so it can't be by increasing incoming so that leaves cutting costs or selling players?
Maybe there is some other way we're going to break even next season or the Burnley Chairman has got it wrong but wouldn't it be nice if our club told its own fans about it.
PS I do feel for our Comms teams, programmes to fill, websites to populate, twitter to feed and the news goes to the Burnley programme.
To be fair there isn't really much revealed here is there. Most of it I think I already knew, even if it'd not been communicated to us directly. Also I would imagine that if the club released a statement telling us how RD gets to games and how long it takes there would be many wondering why they felt the need to tell us that.
I am normally rather cynical but everything I've seen so far makes it look like the man has a plan, all be it it might not work, and that it is a long term project. The short term success on the field is, obviously, paramount to fans, but I don't think there is a magic solution to that - either the club throws money at it or it takes time to improve the performances and results.
It, certainly, came as no surprise to me that the club wants to break even next season. I'm sure I read or heard that already. Clearly there is no detail as to how that will be achieved, and maybe they don't know how they will achieve it yet, but the days of buying a club and spending the sort of money the Premier League clubs get from Sky to get promoted are over. They have to be because with FFP, even if it gets watered down, failing to get promoted could be fatal for a club.
I'd also point out, and this is not aimed at you Henry, that we have been told that we are not a feeder club and that we will be able to sign our own players but it hasn't stopped some people from continually asking that the club provide more clarity. If we are not going to believe what is said then it does, somewhat, justify the club not bothering to tell us anything and leave us to judge on what they do, opposed to trusting that they will do what they say they will.
I think we are the only club in the league embracing FFP. Loan signings by our fellow relegation candidates, who have much smaller crowds bear this out. As usual the FA bottle issue by not making points penalties merely pounds for their coffers. As suggested before someone falling foul will challenge in court and likely win.
Maybe we will see some creative accounting during the close season providing additional Funds. Most likely with a new sponsor being brought onboard from a company within the RD network or his network of business contacts to provide a significant investment.
I also think that if Reza has a decent World Cup he will be flogged to anyone willing to pay a decent fee (rumours circulating that he is looking for a big money move to the Middle East in the Summer). If so then this could be a good example of 'exploiting' the network with him coming in on a free and then being moved on at a profit.
I think Pete the Pol may also be moved onto Standard Liege for a decent fee and profit in another example of this.
but how are we going to break even next season, even in the championship? We're not putting season ticket prices up so it can't be by increasing incoming so that leaves cutting costs or selling players?
Maybe there is some other way we're going to break even next season or the Burnley Chairman has got it wrong but wouldn't it be nice if our club told its own fans about it.
The only way I can think of is if next year's club sponsor, whoever that might be, pumps in a very large "contribution" indeed. It will be interesting to see what firm's name is going to be on the shirts next year.
I'd also point out, and this is not aimed at you Henry, that we have been told that we are not a feeder club and that we will be able to sign our own players but it hasn't stopped some people from continually asking that the club provide more clarity. If we are not going to believe what is said then it does, somewhat, justify the club not bothering to tell us anything and leave us to judge on what they do, opposed to trusting that they will do what they say they will.
I never bought the feeder club idea and said so.
The clarity sort is if it is not a feeder club situation, As RD indeed said, then what is the network and how does it benefit Charlton? I'm not saying it doesn't or won't but would like to know how it does.
But the "feeder club" story is a classic example of how to communicate well using your own avenues.
A BBC story made it seem like RD was saying we were a feeder club.
RD thought that was "misleading" so he did a video with the Club's own comms team to clear that point up.
So RD is concerned about misleading stories and getting his view of things out there. He does care so he made the effort to correct the mistake made by the BBC.
That means that when people on here say "We're a feeder club" people like you and me can point to that interview and say "No, and here's the evidence why".
Maybe we will see some creative accounting during the close season providing additional Funds. Most likely with a new sponsor being brought onboard from a company within the RD network or his network of business contacts to provide a significant investment.
I also think that if Reza has a decent World Cup he will be flogged to anyone willing to pay a decent fee (rumours circulating that he is looking for a big money move to the Middle East in the Summer). If so then this could be a good example of 'exploiting' the network with him coming in on a free and then being moved on at a profit.
I think Pete the Pol may also be moved onto Standard Liege for a decent fee and profit in another example of this.
But these are exactly examples of what I think needs to be clarified.
In the Reza example: Profit for whom CAFC? or Staprix?
In the Polish Pete example. No, the "decent" fee and "profit" will not happen because he owns Standard. It means that the price Standard would pay for PP, and the "profit" we make is bound to be less than if another club buys him. But of course unless he starts to play there will not be any profit for anyone.. And in that case, who bears the loss, the 700-800k fee that was paid? Do Staprix absorb it (since it must have been a Staprix employee who decided to buy him) or will CAFC have to absorb the loss?
And yes, on these matters I believe we have a right to clarification. We are stakeholders, not sheep.
but how are we going to break even next season, even in the championship? We're not putting season ticket prices up so it can't be by increasing incoming so that leaves cutting costs or selling players?
Maybe there is some other way we're going to break even next season or the Burnley Chairman has got it wrong but wouldn't it be nice if our club told its own fans about it.
The only way I can think of is if next year's club sponsor, whoever that might be, pumps in a very large "contribution" indeed. It will be interesting to see what firm's name is going to be on the shirts next year.
Derby get £7 over 10 years for their stadium naming rights. So that's £700k pa for a lot more than a shirt.
Charlton already have a shirt sponsorship deal in the top four or five in the division at around £180k pa (down from £220) the year before.
So unless we get someone like, picking a name at random, Staprix we will do every will to get more than what we are getting now.
Maybe we will see some creative accounting during the close season providing additional Funds. Most likely with a new sponsor being brought onboard from a company within the RD network or his network of business contacts to provide a significant investment.
I also think that if Reza has a decent World Cup he will be flogged to anyone willing to pay a decent fee (rumours circulating that he is looking for a big money move to the Middle East in the Summer). If so then this could be a good example of 'exploiting' the network with him coming in on a free and then being moved on at a profit.
I think Pete the Pol may also be moved onto Standard Liege for a decent fee and profit in another example of this.
But these are exactly examples of what I think needs to be clarified.
In the Reza example: Profit for whom CAFC? or Staprix?
In the Polish Pete example. No, the "decent" fee and "profit" will not happen because he owns Standard. It means that the price Standard would pay for PP, and the "profit" we make is bound to be less than if another club buys him. But of course unless he starts to play there will not be any profit for anyone.. And in that case, who bears the loss, the 700-800k fee that was paid? Do Staprix absorb it (since it must have been a Staprix employee who decided to buy him) or will CAFC have to absorb the loss?
And yes, on these matters I believe we have a right to clarification. We are stakeholders, not sheep.
The thing is, we need to start seeing ourselves as effectively part of a group, rather than an individual financial entity.
Starting from the assumption that RD is in for the long haul, as opposed to an asset-stripper (which I am fairly confident is correct), he will be looking to make a profit overall. It doesn't really matter to him, in the grand scheme of things, which of his companies' books the profit is shown in. Equally, there seems little point or benefit to him in shifting money around.* People seem paranoid about Charlton buying players, selling them on the cheap to Standard (or other network clubs), and Charlton bearing the loss. This makes little financial sense for the owner, and arguably doesn't really matter to the club unless and until he decides to sell it. What is surely far more important is how much of the 'group' resource he is willing to allocate to CAFC.
Things would be different if CAFC was turning a profit and RD was using the transfer market to move this into other clubs, but as it is we have moved from being a loss making club to a member of a group which will hopefully make a profit over the medium-term. Whether or not it succeeds is yet to be seen, but it's surely a good intention?
* The one exception to this is where there may be tax benefits from showing a profit or loss in a particular jurisdiction. However, I'm not a tax expert so I'll stay away from that!
This thread (and others) raises the very pertinent question about how much Duchatelet will explain about the direction of travel. And this in turn raises the issue of how much the fans and in particular the supporter's Trust should ask ... and then communicate explicit inferred strategy or perhaps gaps where there are no answers forthcoming. There have been monthly communications so what can we expect in April?
The January player sales and the cup run have probably contributed £2M to the bottom line so we are getting very close to break even this season. Perhaps losses as small as £3M? And when one adds back depreciation and the Academy then the FFP result might well be very close to £1M loss - virtually break even!
The two simplest way to improve revenue would be: 1) to win a cup quarter final for a change! That would add another£1.4M. 2) Better football and win more home games?! Revolutionary I know! But that will sell more tickets - The top six clubs attract an average gate of 21,000 and that is a big difference to whatever our average is right now. I have posted elsewhere that I believe that the season ticket revenue will remain unchanged but that there will be many more season tickets sold because of the various price drops. So how else to increase revenue and/or cut costs? In just a couple of years with the right comms, right players and right results CAFC could be at the right end of the table with decent crowds? Duchatelet could run some detail past the fans but first I think he needs to see what division we are in AND if the current management team are able to deliver both plan and execution. To me it is inevitable that there will be changes in the management structure to prepare the club for some quite big changes.
As posted above player salaries are a large part of the club costs but the non football related look high too starting with £500K business rates to RBG. All of the amateur and professional analysts amongst the support can speculate about where money might be saved but perhaps Duchatelet might simply be asked what % cost savings he is looking for and just as importantly over what time frame. Or is it more constructive to break even with revenue increases.
Much of this comes back to the fundamental question for any professional football club - attracting and retaining some good players over the summer to add to what is a half decent squad [yeah I know half is not so good but I am talking the players who are definitely here for 2014/15]. And at what price are players sold?
To know whether Duchatelet can do this on the cheap I would first start by analysing the transfer dealings of Standard Liege over the last three years or so - I see they beat Anderlecht last night to go back top of the league. Instead of fretting about networks, go find out who and how they have acquired players and whether CAFC can do the same. I will ask our son to give a briefing from FIFA tonight!
The summer window of 2014 is going to very different to January and probably similar to 2011 - a lot more players going and hopefully many coming in. After six months Duchatelet, Meire, the head coach (Riga?) and assistants Fraeye +? should know a lot more about the challenge of Championship football. And please bear in mind that Meire and Fraeye have been on the Duchatelet payroll since October 2013 and that Duchatelet has four years experience of running Liege - these are not novices nor stupid people. And they have resource behind them. I see the concerns about these so called group synergies but personally I think these synergies are peripheral. The single biggest gain that CAFC can expect to make is that it is now plugged into a pan European and African scouting Network as well as having one of the best academies in the division. Again take a look at the Liege website and you will see young players from Ghana and elsewhere.
Will players scouted by the network go to Liege or CAFC - and who makes the final call?
Finally can the fans and the Trust become partners and ask questions or will they be fobbed off? What is reasonable to ask. And in what tone? An aggressive way or in a very analytical fashion? Will the Trust and Fans Forum act separately or come together? Is fans consultation part of the Duchatelet vision to grow the club or will he ask his team to pay lip service while they get on with it? There are a whole number of complex dynamics at play including many I have not mentioned - especially lady luck!
Here's hoping we have some of that tomorrow at Elland Road.
The thing is, we need to start seeing ourselves as effectively part of a group, rather than an individual financial entity.
Excuse me if this sounds a bit arsey, but is that not exactly what my post at 1.34 (12.34BST) about? the possible implications of it? I am not 'paranoid' about anything. I just want to know how it will work.
I can certainly agree with you that in principal it is safer for a business which was previously making losses on its own, to be part of a profitable group. Henry has pointed out that for the first time RD has now said that we will run at break-even next season I simply do not understand how he will make that happen. Do you? Considering that:
- even with cost-cutting measures this season the Trust has estimated that losses will be around £5m, and we were told that this is a good estimate - we receive TV money of around £3m/year, yet face numerous teams with up to five times as much TV money; and not forgetting teams like Bournemouth who have found a rich benefactor. How can we compete with them for players if we have to cut costs further.? - season ticket + match day revenues will almost certainly be lower next season, and certainly not going to increase to close the 5m revenue gap
If you could help me understand how break-even next season can happen without savage cuts to the main cost - player wages, i would certainly be interested. But in the meantime I will try to look up that BDO report on finances that was flagged up on here a few months ago, which shows how the Championship is the worst league of the four for operating at break-even.
Simple answer to break even is develop academy players and sell them for a big profit. If Poyet signs his contract and we then sell him for 5-6m we will break even. Crewe did this for years when Dario was in charge. You won't necessarily challenge for anything but conversely you will attract better players to your academy as they will get the chance to play regularly and move to bigger clubs.
The thing is, we need to start seeing ourselves as effectively part of a group, rather than an individual financial entity.
Excuse me if this sounds a bit arsey, but is that not exactly what my post at 1.34 (12.34BST) about? the possible implications of it? I am not 'paranoid' about anything. I just want to know how it will work.
I can certainly agree with you that in principal it is safer for a business which was previously making losses on its own, to be part of a profitable group. Henry has pointed out that for the first time RD has now said that we will run at break-even next season I simply do not understand how he will make that happen. Do you? Considering that:
- even with cost-cutting measures this season the Trust has estimated that losses will be around £5m, and we were told that this is a good estimate - we receive TV money of around £3m/year, yet face numerous teams with up to five times as much TV money; and not forgetting teams like Bournemouth who have found a rich benefactor. How can we compete with them for players if we have to cut costs further.? - season ticket + match day revenues will almost certainly be lower next season, and certainly not going to increase to close the 5m revenue gap
If you could help me understand how break-even next season can happen without savage cuts to the main cost - player wages, i would certainly be interested. But in the meantime I will try to look up that BDO report on finances that was flagged up on here a few months ago, which shows how the Championship is the worst league of the four for operating at break-even.
Sorry, maybe paranoid wasn't the right word to use. I guess what I'm trying to say is that RD will undoubtably be looking at finances from a group perspective, and maybe that's where our focus should be as well, rather than focussing too much on the impact of intra-group transactions on individual clubs (which, as you know, can be manipulated in a number of ways). Are we paying full wages for AA, for example? (Genuine question as I don't know the answer). I agree that a little more clarity around how RD makes these sorts of decisions would be nice in an ideal world, but realistically I think we're unlikely to get it.
Regarding your other points, it's a fact of life that we will get less revenue than other Championship clubs next season for the reasons you've given. However, where I think I differ from the majority of supporters is that I don't think it's sustainable or sensible to keep looking at other clubs and saying, "they are spending £Xm so we have to as well in order to compete." Too many clubs have been doing this for too long, and that's how we've ended up in the situation where the Championship itself is unsustainable. We can't affect TV money, so we will need to cut our cloth accordingly. If that means we have to lower the wage bill then unfortunately it might have to be done. It then becomes important to buy smart, use Academy players etc to remain competitive. And this is where I think that membership of RD's Network might help. Theoretically, we have a wider pool of players to draw upon.
I also don't personally believe that ST and match day revenue will fall next year. RD seems a shrewd businessman, and the club is clearly putting a lot of effort into improving the matchday experience which should translate into revenue. Not everyone will be a fan of the changes (e.g. Crossbars), but they will bring revenue in. And as for people not renewing, we seem to have this every year but ultimately the majority of ST holders will renew, even if they are unhappy with the current owners. It's in our blood.
I think our posts crossed but have already explained @pragueaddick how the original forecast needs updating for player sales and the cup run leading to losses of £3M or £1M FFP result so I can't take your bottle but thanks These numbers are only going to move a lot if there is a big chunk of cash for Jenkinson appearances for the Gooners or perhaps a player sale before June 30th?
I replied to Airman on another thread but before we get excited about the implications of "breakeven" and horrendous cuts we need to be crystal clear about what the term means. If Duchatelet is referring to the FFP result then guess what? A win vs Sheffield United would have delivered "breakeven" in Duchatelet's first six months!
5,300 fans watching that game were pretty pissed off plus all the Addicks watching on TV - imagine how Duchatelet felt as £1.4M went up in smoke!
You might suggest I am playing with terminology but what I am seeking to do is outline the type of precise questioning which need to be asked for the Trust and wider fanbase to understand the regular communications coming out of the club - and I don't work in corporate analyst "stuff".
Simple answer to break even is develop academy players and sell them for a big profit. If Poyet signs his contract and we then sell him for 5-6m we will break even. Crewe did this for years when Dario was in charge. You won't necessarily challenge for anything but conversely you will attract better players to your academy as they will get the chance to play regularly and move to bigger clubs.
Spot on, chuck in the fact we will be getting players from teams within the network match fit, strengthened up and in form for them, there we have our future for the medium term. England is a bright prospect for footballers, but we will get 1-2 seasons out of our talent, FWIW I think we are stuck in League One for a long time once we drop to it, my personal opinion because experience and determination is the way out of these leagues, soon enough we won't have it.
Comments
I did manage to chat to their new owners briefly and although I’m not necessarily a fan of foreign ownership, I have a say he seemed to have some good plans for the club; the main one being to become self-sustaining and to break even next season.
It’s fair to say he definitely appears to be in it for the long haul, which is to be admired.
Strangely, although he lives in Belgium he commutes to Charlton on Eurostar and his journey time to Charlton (two and a half hours) is less than mine from my home in Hertfordshire to Burnley.
The wonders of modern transportation! "
Read more at http://www.burnleyfootballclub.com/news/article/chairmans-notes-leicester-310314-1457311.aspx#LQ1RoHYiDhzZYJfp.99
It is depressing when Burnley fans are getting more of an insight as to the Charlton owner's plans than our fans are.
Good news that he "definitely appears" to be in it for the long haul but how are we going to break even next season, even in the championship? We're not putting season ticket prices up so it can't be by increasing incoming so that leaves cutting costs or selling players?
Maybe there is some other way we're going to break even next season or the Burnley Chairman has got it wrong but wouldn't it be nice if our club told its own fans about it.
PS I do feel for our Comms teams, programmes to fill, websites to populate, twitter to feed and the news goes to the Burnley programme.
Does it mean that the network - Staprix - breaks even, or each individual club? Every one of the clubs?
If each club is expected to break even, then it means that the local management have to have complete autonomy to manage, provided they break even. Currently it is not clear how this will work, if, as it seems, Charlton took onto their books several players which the management probably would not have chosen for the task in hand. Who pays the wages of these players? The extreme example is Polish Pete. In this case it seems we paid a significant transfer fee, and, if you believe the thread on him running now, we pay his wages while he "settles in" .
There may be some joined up financial thinking going on here, but I am struggling to see it, and I doubt we will understand until RD explains it. And if he doesn't choose to explain it, then he cannot complain if he gets criticism which he might consider to be ignorant. He may not care about that either, but sooner or later this translates into gate revenue.
You either run it to be successful in terms of silverware, or because you have a passion for the club or you run it to make a profit.
Can not really see RD in the first 2 categories, so surely he is running it to make money, either by investing money & winning things, then sell the club at a profit or by bringing the youth through & selling players.
With the noises made so far I know what one I think he will do, but just my opinion of course.
Is he going to make public his detailed business plan explaining exactly where he's planning to cut costs? Of course not - no business would for a whole host of reasons from alienating employees to undermining negotiations with suppliers. The important thing is he's been quite open and honest (IMO) about his high level strategy and the direction in which he wants to take the club.
Finally, I think it's a sad situation when a club owner takes criticism for wanting to make a club self-sustaining. The 'invest and win things' mentality only works for the mega-rich - for everyone else it's a disaster and there are countless examples to prove it. We used to have a reputation for being a well-run club which we were all proud of - and I would much rather have this than an FA Cup win followed by years rotting in League 2.
After an initial flurry of meet and greets, there is now no collaborative effort in place with the CAFC management.
The ST consultation was very limited and not of the format we (CAS Trust) preferred being a smaller 'target' style group, that broke out to a larger consultation).
I am however hoping this is a temporary lull during the transition period and of course avoiding relegation being a focus - we will as a Trust keep asking (and have been), just like we did before.
If you compare anyone with TJ and MS they are going to come out looking good. I'm not knocking RD, I've said before I think he'll be good for the club in the long run but this should be in our programme, not theirs (I doubt RD expected a casual conversation to be repeated like this).
Yes, RD has hinted that he wants the club to break even but I've not seen anywhere that that is going to be from NEXT SEASON. That is crucial bit of info here and it came not in one of those videos but in the Burnley programme.
Nor did we know that RD plans to be around in the LONG TERM. Again a key bit of info we've not had before. As I said very welcome news to me but how long is "long term"?
I have no problem with the club being "self-sustaining" (your words, the Burnley chairman said "break even") but the question I asked is HOW? As I said it's not by increasing ST prices so how will we pay for the pitch, the new academy building, strengthen the squad so we can at least compete and still break even?
Does RD mean comply with FFP or does he mean we won't spend more than we earn. If the latter then there is something around £5m of cuts to be made. And as the largest cost in players wages it has to nearly all come from there. Lots of players we could release but that could leave the squad very thin and weak. Can we rely of Polish Pete, Reza and the academy kids next year?
no one is asking for every single figure from the business plan but why can't he share more than he has which is next to nothing.
I disagree that he's been quite open about his high level strategy. What is it? There is a network but each club is run locally? How does that work? We're not a feeder club but players can move between clubs? How does that work? We're going to break even? How? Sell players, cut wages?, run on a much smaller squad, increase sponsorship or some or all of the above. We just don't know because he hasn't told us.
As much as I want the Trust to be successful I'm not sure that PR needs to be routed through it. The club has access to more, and much better funded, resources that the Trust does and if there is a message to put out I think the club would reach more fans by using their own media than using the Trust's.
I agree.
But having the OS, Twitter, the programme etc then use them pro-actively to inform, promote, encourage. Sell the vision (sic), get people on board figuratively and financially, talk up the good news to lessen the blow of the bad news (we might be struggling on the pitch but we are investing in the future).
I am normally rather cynical but everything I've seen so far makes it look like the man has a plan, all be it it might not work, and that it is a long term project. The short term success on the field is, obviously, paramount to fans, but I don't think there is a magic solution to that - either the club throws money at it or it takes time to improve the performances and results.
It, certainly, came as no surprise to me that the club wants to break even next season. I'm sure I read or heard that already. Clearly there is no detail as to how that will be achieved, and maybe they don't know how they will achieve it yet, but the days of buying a club and spending the sort of money the Premier League clubs get from Sky to get promoted are over. They have to be because with FFP, even if it gets watered down, failing to get promoted could be fatal for a club.
I'd also point out, and this is not aimed at you Henry, that we have been told that we are not a feeder club and that we will be able to sign our own players but it hasn't stopped some people from continually asking that the club provide more clarity. If we are not going to believe what is said then it does, somewhat, justify the club not bothering to tell us anything and leave us to judge on what they do, opposed to trusting that they will do what they say they will.
I also think that if Reza has a decent World Cup he will be flogged to anyone willing to pay a decent fee (rumours circulating that he is looking for a big money move to the Middle East in the Summer). If so then this could be a good example of 'exploiting' the network with him coming in on a free and then being moved on at a profit.
I think Pete the Pol may also be moved onto Standard Liege for a decent fee and profit in another example of this.
I never bought the feeder club idea and said so.
The clarity sort is if it is not a feeder club situation, As RD indeed said, then what is the network and how does it benefit Charlton? I'm not saying it doesn't or won't but would like to know how it does.
But the "feeder club" story is a classic example of how to communicate well using your own avenues.
A BBC story made it seem like RD was saying we were a feeder club.
RD thought that was "misleading" so he did a video with the Club's own comms team to clear that point up.
So RD is concerned about misleading stories and getting his view of things out there. He does care so he made the effort to correct the mistake made by the BBC.
That means that when people on here say "We're a feeder club" people like you and me can point to that interview and say "No, and here's the evidence why".
It really is that simple.
But these are exactly examples of what I think needs to be clarified.
In the Reza example: Profit for whom CAFC? or Staprix?
In the Polish Pete example. No, the "decent" fee and "profit" will not happen because he owns Standard. It means that the price Standard would pay for PP, and the "profit" we make is bound to be less than if another club buys him. But of course unless he starts to play there will not be any profit for anyone.. And in that case, who bears the loss, the 700-800k fee that was paid? Do Staprix absorb it (since it must have been a Staprix employee who decided to buy him) or will CAFC have to absorb the loss?
And yes, on these matters I believe we have a right to clarification. We are stakeholders, not sheep.
Charlton already have a shirt sponsorship deal in the top four or five in the division at around £180k pa (down from £220) the year before.
So unless we get someone like, picking a name at random, Staprix we will do every will to get more than what we are getting now.
Starting from the assumption that RD is in for the long haul, as opposed to an asset-stripper (which I am fairly confident is correct), he will be looking to make a profit overall. It doesn't really matter to him, in the grand scheme of things, which of his companies' books the profit is shown in. Equally, there seems little point or benefit to him in shifting money around.* People seem paranoid about Charlton buying players, selling them on the cheap to Standard (or other network clubs), and Charlton bearing the loss. This makes little financial sense for the owner, and arguably doesn't really matter to the club unless and until he decides to sell it. What is surely far more important is how much of the 'group' resource he is willing to allocate to CAFC.
Things would be different if CAFC was turning a profit and RD was using the transfer market to move this into other clubs, but as it is we have moved from being a loss making club to a member of a group which will hopefully make a profit over the medium-term. Whether or not it succeeds is yet to be seen, but it's surely a good intention?
* The one exception to this is where there may be tax benefits from showing a profit or loss in a particular jurisdiction. However, I'm not a tax expert so I'll stay away from that!
The January player sales and the cup run have probably contributed £2M to the bottom line so we are getting very close to break even this season. Perhaps losses as small as £3M? And when one adds back depreciation and the Academy then the FFP result might well be very close to £1M loss - virtually break even!
The two simplest way to improve revenue would be:
1) to win a cup quarter final for a change! That would add another£1.4M.
2) Better football and win more home games?! Revolutionary I know! But that will sell more tickets - The top six clubs attract an average gate of 21,000 and that is a big difference to whatever our average is right now.
I have posted elsewhere that I believe that the season ticket revenue will remain unchanged but that there will be many more season tickets sold because of the various price drops. So how else to increase revenue and/or cut costs? In just a couple of years with the right comms, right players and right results CAFC could be at the right end of the table with decent crowds? Duchatelet could run some detail past the fans but first I think he needs to see what division we are in AND if the current management team are able to deliver both plan and execution. To me it is inevitable that there will be changes in the management structure to prepare the club for some quite big changes.
As posted above player salaries are a large part of the club costs but the non football related look high too starting with £500K business rates to RBG. All of the amateur and professional analysts amongst the support can speculate about where money might be saved but perhaps Duchatelet might simply be asked what % cost savings he is looking for and just as importantly over what time frame. Or is it more constructive to break even with revenue increases.
Much of this comes back to the fundamental question for any professional football club - attracting and retaining some good players over the summer to add to what is a half decent squad [yeah I know half is not so good but I am talking the players who are definitely here for 2014/15]. And at what price are players sold?
To know whether Duchatelet can do this on the cheap I would first start by analysing the transfer dealings of Standard Liege over the last three years or so - I see they beat Anderlecht last night to go back top of the league. Instead of fretting about networks, go find out who and how they have acquired players and whether CAFC can do the same. I will ask our son to give a briefing from FIFA tonight!
The summer window of 2014 is going to very different to January and probably similar to 2011 - a lot more players going and hopefully many coming in. After six months Duchatelet, Meire, the head coach (Riga?) and assistants Fraeye +? should know a lot more about the challenge of Championship football. And please bear in mind that Meire and Fraeye have been on the Duchatelet payroll since October 2013 and that Duchatelet has four years experience of running Liege - these are not novices nor stupid people. And they have resource behind them.
I see the concerns about these so called group synergies but personally I think these synergies are peripheral. The single biggest gain that CAFC can expect to make is that it is now plugged into a pan European and African scouting Network as well as having one of the best academies in the division. Again take a look at the Liege website and you will see young players from Ghana and elsewhere.
Will players scouted by the network go to Liege or CAFC - and who makes the final call?
Finally can the fans and the Trust become partners and ask questions or will they be fobbed off? What is reasonable to ask. And in what tone? An aggressive way or in a very analytical fashion? Will the Trust and Fans Forum act separately or come together? Is fans consultation part of the Duchatelet vision to grow the club or will he ask his team to pay lip service while they get on with it? There are a whole number of complex dynamics at play including many I have not mentioned - especially lady luck!
Here's hoping we have some of that tomorrow at Elland Road.
The thing is, we need to start seeing ourselves as effectively part of a group, rather than an individual financial entity.
Excuse me if this sounds a bit arsey, but is that not exactly what my post at 1.34 (12.34BST) about? the possible implications of it? I am not 'paranoid' about anything. I just want to know how it will work.
I can certainly agree with you that in principal it is safer for a business which was previously making losses on its own, to be part of a profitable group.
Henry has pointed out that for the first time RD has now said that we will run at break-even next season
I simply do not understand how he will make that happen. Do you? Considering that:
- even with cost-cutting measures this season the Trust has estimated that losses will be around £5m, and we were told that this is a good estimate
- we receive TV money of around £3m/year, yet face numerous teams with up to five times as much TV money; and not forgetting teams like Bournemouth who have found a rich benefactor. How can we compete with them for players if we have to cut costs further.?
- season ticket + match day revenues will almost certainly be lower next season, and certainly not going to increase to close the 5m revenue gap
If you could help me understand how break-even next season can happen without savage cuts to the main cost - player wages, i would certainly be interested. But in the meantime I will try to look up that BDO report on finances that was flagged up on here a few months ago, which shows how the Championship is the worst league of the four for operating at break-even.
I think people will be bored rigid if we play out on here the private discussions we had about the current P&L in the last six months.
So how about keeping it to a bet.A bottle of something decent; you name it.
Loss of less than £2.5m, you win. Loss of more than £3.5m, I win. In-between, we are quits.
That still leaves open the question of how we get from minus 3m to zero next season without selling, well, who exactly?
If Poyet signs his contract and we then sell him for 5-6m we will break even.
Crewe did this for years when Dario was in charge.
You won't necessarily challenge for anything but conversely you will attract better players to your academy as they will get the chance to play regularly and move to bigger clubs.
Regarding your other points, it's a fact of life that we will get less revenue than other Championship clubs next season for the reasons you've given. However, where I think I differ from the majority of supporters is that I don't think it's sustainable or sensible to keep looking at other clubs and saying, "they are spending £Xm so we have to as well in order to compete." Too many clubs have been doing this for too long, and that's how we've ended up in the situation where the Championship itself is unsustainable. We can't affect TV money, so we will need to cut our cloth accordingly. If that means we have to lower the wage bill then unfortunately it might have to be done. It then becomes important to buy smart, use Academy players etc to remain competitive. And this is where I think that membership of RD's Network might help. Theoretically, we have a wider pool of players to draw upon.
I also don't personally believe that ST and match day revenue will fall next year. RD seems a shrewd businessman, and the club is clearly putting a lot of effort into improving the matchday experience which should translate into revenue. Not everyone will be a fan of the changes (e.g. Crossbars), but they will bring revenue in. And as for people not renewing, we seem to have this every year but ultimately the majority of ST holders will renew, even if they are unhappy with the current owners. It's in our blood.
These numbers are only going to move a lot if there is a big chunk of cash for Jenkinson appearances for the Gooners or perhaps a player sale before June 30th?
I replied to Airman on another thread but before we get excited about the implications of "breakeven" and horrendous cuts we need to be crystal clear about what the term means. If Duchatelet is referring to the FFP result then guess what? A win vs Sheffield United would have delivered "breakeven" in Duchatelet's first six months!
5,300 fans watching that game were pretty pissed off plus all the Addicks watching on TV - imagine how Duchatelet felt as £1.4M went up in smoke!
You might suggest I am playing with terminology but what I am seeking to do is outline the type of precise questioning which need to be asked for the Trust and wider fanbase to understand the regular communications coming out of the club - and I don't work in corporate analyst "stuff".