I don't earn a great deal of money but I do have a credit card with a big limit.
This lunch time I could walk to the Travel Agent up the road and spend £5k or more on a trip to Australia courtesy of that credit card.
Whilst on my jaunt I would be thinking how great life is and how much better things are than they have been.
However after a few weeks I'd have to return home and go back to work with a big debt plus interest.
That is the stark reality.
To try and answer your question Vincent I suspect many, like me, are wary as to how the Board are financing the comparatively good times you validly refer too in your opening post rather like my hypothetical trip Down Under.
Good analogy Len. From the time of the share issue to fans in 1994 (when, aside from raising a decent slug of capital from supporters, the existing directors converted loans to CAFC into equity), right up until Curbs' departure, all of the long-term capital injected by the largest backers (mainly a small group of directors, always including RM) was in the form of equity; once in, the funds couldn't be taken out and the backers could only realise their investment by selling their shares to others. There was NO debt to directors, other than occasional (and temporary provision of) working capital. The downside of perennial share issues to plug recurring deificits for other shareholders was that their shareholdings were continually diluted but most were content that the club was not taking on a growing debt obligation that, historically, has become a millstone around the neck of many football clubs. IMHO, this was truly a period when directors, shareholders (who were fans) and fans generally shared the same view of the world and the way that CAFC needed to operate. It may seem hard to believe but the main backers accepted that they may or may not see their money again, though of course they hoped that the club would continue to progress and perhaps one day their investments may bear fruit financially to complement the joy of the journey. When Dowie was given a shed load of cash to spend, it was done on the basis that Premier League revenues (due to rise sharply again) would continue and would fund the over-spend. The main backers pledged, in the worst-case, to cover the deficit. When the wotsit hit the fan some months later they did indeed inject the required capital but, now staring at very straightened times for the club financially, would only do so in the form of debt. That is, it would need to be repaid. From that point onwards, most of not all of the fund injected increased that debt due to directors, until of course they (at the time of RM's buyout) agreed to write off much of it and make repayment of the rest contingent on regaining Premier League status. How the current board has financed the recurring deficit I have not a clue - no doubt it can be deduced to some degree from the accounts but I would hazard a guess that it has been by debt from themselves and/or "third parties". Not being dyed-in-the-wool Addicks they will wish to see their money again one day............................preferably one day soon no doubt.
Peanuts Lens analogy does not reflect in any way shape or form how Charlton is managed. I don't know if the board borrowed money to buy out RM or if it were out of their own pockets. The way I see it, they have bought into a business that has assets, a strong fan base, if managed right a club that could make them a lot of money. What comes with that is great risk and so it should. The football club is losing money just like most other clubs in Britain. Do they have the skills to make savings whilst growing the club and do they have the resources and time it will take. I don't know but everyone and their dog thinks that someone will come along and buy the club so surely that must mean that money can be made. They way you explain the situation after 1994 was am I right in thinking made possible because it was Charlton fans running the club and being in the PL
I don't earn a great deal of money but I do have a credit card with a big limit.
This lunch time I could walk to the Travel Agent up the road and spend £5k or more on a trip to Australia courtesy of that credit card.
Whilst on my jaunt I would be thinking how great life is and how much better things are than they have been.
However after a few weeks I'd have to return home and go back to work with a big debt plus interest.
That is the stark reality.
To try and answer your question Vincent I suspect many, like me, are wary as to how the Board are financing the comparatively good times you validly refer too in your opening post rather like my hypothetical trip Down Under.
I don't earn a great deal of money but I do have a credit card with a big limit.
This lunch time I could walk to the Travel Agent up the road and spend £5k or more on a trip to Australia courtesy of that credit card.
Whilst on my jaunt I would be thinking how great life is and how much better things are than they have been.
However after a few weeks I'd have to return home and go back to work with a big debt plus interest.
That is the stark reality.
To try and answer your question Vincent I suspect many, like me, are wary as to how the Board are financing the comparatively good times you validly refer too in your opening post rather like my hypothetical trip Down Under.
Good analogy Len. From the time of the share issue to fans in 1994 (when, aside from raising a decent slug of capital from supporters, the existing directors converted loans to CAFC into equity), right up until Curbs' departure, all of the long-term capital injected by the largest backers (mainly a small group of directors, always including RM) was in the form of equity; once in, the funds couldn't be taken out and the backers could only realise their investment by selling their shares to others. There was NO debt to directors, other than occasional (and temporary provision of) working capital. The downside of perennial share issues to plug recurring deificits for other shareholders was that their shareholdings were continually diluted but most were content that the club was not taking on a growing debt obligation that, historically, has become a millstone around the neck of many football clubs. IMHO, this was truly a period when directors, shareholders (who were fans) and fans generally shared the same view of the world and the way that CAFC needed to operate. It may seem hard to believe but the main backers accepted that they may or may not see their money again, though of course they hoped that the club would continue to progress and perhaps one day their investments may bear fruit financially to complement the joy of the journey. When Dowie was given a shed load of cash to spend, it was done on the basis that Premier League revenues (due to rise sharply again) would continue and would fund the over-spend. The main backers pledged, in the worst-case, to cover the deficit. When the wotsit hit the fan some months later they did indeed inject the required capital but, now staring at very straightened times for the club financially, would only do so in the form of debt. That is, it would need to be repaid. From that point onwards, most of not all of the fund injected increased that debt due to directors, until of course they (at the time of RM's buyout) agreed to write off much of it and make repayment of the rest contingent on regaining Premier League status. How the current board has financed the recurring deficit I have not a clue - no doubt it can be deduced to some degree from the accounts but I would hazard a guess that it has been by debt from themselves and/or "third parties". Not being dyed-in-the-wool Addicks they will wish to see their money again one day............................preferably one day soon no doubt.
Peanuts Lens analogy does not reflect in any way shape or form how Charlton is managed. I don't know if the board borrowed money to buy out RM or if it were out of their own pockets. The way I see it, they have bought into a business that has assets, a strong fan base, if managed right a club that could make them a lot of money. What comes with that is great risk and so it should. The football club is losing money just like most other clubs in Britain. Do they have the skills to make savings whilst growing the club and do they have the resources and time it will take. I don't know but everyone and their dog thinks that someone will come along and buy the club so surely that must mean that money can be made. They way you explain the situation after 1994 was am I right in thinking made possible because it was Charlton fans running the club and being in the PL
It is precisely the point that it was fans running the club but, even so, it was an a-typical pattern for football clubs to inject all long-term capital (other than secured bank borrowings) in the form of equity. That pattern was established well before we made the PL.
I don't earn a great deal of money but I do have a credit card with a big limit.
This lunch time I could walk to the Travel Agent up the road and spend £5k or more on a trip to Australia courtesy of that credit card.
Whilst on my jaunt I would be thinking how great life is and how much better things are than they have been.
However after a few weeks I'd have to return home and go back to work with a big debt plus interest.
That is the stark reality.
To try and answer your question Vincent I suspect many, like me, are wary as to how the Board are financing the comparatively good times you validly refer too in your opening post rather like my hypothetical trip Down Under.
Len this is a misleading way of looking at our situation. The current board did not get us into debt they inherit it. Now rather then get into further debt by booking another holiday they are unable to afford they are making every effort to pay off the debt and earn more money before being able to afford an even better holiday in the future. For this year they are having a better holiday than last year and the year before and want to make sure that next years holiday will be better in not what they would really like
How is it misleading?
As you say yourself the Board inherited debt. As you say yourself we've not sold assets to finance that debt (or the bits of it that have not been deferred). High figures within the Club, including Slater, have mentioned that we are losing around £7m per annum.
Those losses have to be absorbed somehow.
I, and others it seems, suspect it is being done by the footballing equivalent of my maxing out my credit card for my holiday. In other words taking on yet more debt.
I have not abused the Board but the concerns I've mentioned above given the FACT that proven Charlton people like Peter Varney, Rick Everitt, Wendy Perfect and, latterly, Matt Wright have left in what I'll describe as questionable circumstances make it more than reasonable to ask searching questions of the Board and its motives, in my opinion anyway.
I have no idea how old you are, but suspect you maybe too young to remember September 1985. Up until then we had allowed the Board to "run the club in the way they see fit", not least because there had some investment on the playing side and we looked like we would challenge for promotion. Then we got a piece of paper telling us that we were moving to Selhurst Park next week, but that the 75 bus would take us directly there, and that the pitch at Selhurst is always in first class condition. We then "reacted when they gave us a reason". We invaded the pitch. Fat lot of good that did. The deal was done.
Some of us that day said 'never again'. That is why we take a closer interest in what goes on in the boardroom.
Prague I am 50 today and have been going to the Valley for 42 years. I remember our last game at home and was on the pitch at half time, but if my memory serves me well I am sure that everyone knew this was coming. I am all for fans taking an interest in what is going on behind the scenes but I want to know why there is so much criticism of the board.
Happy Birthday
Well you are the first person I ever met who claimed they knew it was coming. I never up to now met a single person who had the remotest idea. And to my knowledge nor did Airman Brown who was both a member of the supporters club and becoming interested in a career in journalism.
Mike Norris was a friend of my uncles. My uncle and Mike Bailey had the Valley Club at the time and it was common knowledge to a lot of people I knew that we were going. I am not sure who but Palace was not the first choice either.
Well this becomes interesting, at least for people like me of a certain age.
It happens that my brother was a schoolmate of Norris's son Doug, and that was the first bewildered call we made when we got home after getting the piece of paper. But that just illustrates how completely in the dark ordinary fans were.
The question is, why didn't you and these others who were in know, SAY SOMETHING?
I have no idea how old you are, but suspect you maybe too young to remember September 1985. Up until then we had allowed the Board to "run the club in the way they see fit", not least because there had some investment on the playing side and we looked like we would challenge for promotion. Then we got a piece of paper telling us that we were moving to Selhurst Park next week, but that the 75 bus would take us directly there, and that the pitch at Selhurst is always in first class condition. We then "reacted when they gave us a reason". We invaded the pitch. Fat lot of good that did. The deal was done.
Some of us that day said 'never again'. That is why we take a closer interest in what goes on in the boardroom.
Prague I am 50 today and have been going to the Valley for 42 years. I remember our last game at home and was on the pitch at half time, but if my memory serves me well I am sure that everyone knew this was coming. I am all for fans taking an interest in what is going on behind the scenes but I want to know why there is so much criticism of the board.
Happy Birthday
Well you are the first person I ever met who claimed they knew it was coming. I never up to now met a single person who had the remotest idea. And to my knowledge nor did Airman Brown who was both a member of the supporters club and becoming interested in a career in journalism.
Mike Norris was a friend of my uncles. My uncle and Mike Bailey had the Valley Club at the time and it was common knowledge to a lot of people I knew that we were going. I am not sure who but Palace was not the first choice either.
Well this becomes interesting, at least for people like me of a certain age.
It happens that my brother was a schoolmate of Norris's son Doug, and that was the first bewildered call we made when we got home after getting the piece of paper. But that just illustrates how completely in the dark ordinary fans were.
The question is, why didn't you and these others who were in know, SAY SOMETHING?
As I say I thought it was common knowledge, did we not have supports laying wreaths in front of the tunnel before the game and I may have got this wrong but did someone not lay a coffin in front of the directors box.
I don't earn a great deal of money but I do have a credit card with a big limit.
This lunch time I could walk to the Travel Agent up the road and spend £5k or more on a trip to Australia courtesy of that credit card.
Whilst on my jaunt I would be thinking how great life is and how much better things are than they have been.
However after a few weeks I'd have to return home and go back to work with a big debt plus interest.
That is the stark reality.
To try and answer your question Vincent I suspect many, like me, are wary as to how the Board are financing the comparatively good times you validly refer too in your opening post rather like my hypothetical trip Down Under.
Are you going to Australia, Len?
As that famous Australian Kylie has said on a number of occasions I should be so lucky!
I don't earn a great deal of money but I do have a credit card with a big limit.
This lunch time I could walk to the Travel Agent up the road and spend £5k or more on a trip to Australia courtesy of that credit card.
Whilst on my jaunt I would be thinking how great life is and how much better things are than they have been.
However after a few weeks I'd have to return home and go back to work with a big debt plus interest.
That is the stark reality.
To try and answer your question Vincent I suspect many, like me, are wary as to how the Board are financing the comparatively good times you validly refer too in your opening post rather like my hypothetical trip Down Under.
Len this is a misleading way of looking at our situation. The current board did not get us into debt they inherit it. Now rather then get into further debt by booking another holiday they are unable to afford they are making every effort to pay off the debt and earn more money before being able to afford an even better holiday in the future. For this year they are having a better holiday than last year and the year before and want to make sure that next years holiday will be better in not what they would really like
How is it misleading?
As you say yourself the Board inherited debt. As you say yourself we've not sold assets to finance that debt (or the bits of it that have not been deferred). High figures within the Club, including Slater, have mentioned that we are losing around £7m per annum.
Those losses have to be absorbed somehow.
I, and others it seems, suspect it is being done by the footballing equivalent of my maxing out my credit card for my holiday. In other words taking on yet more debt.
I have not abused the Board but the concerns I've mentioned above given the FACT that proven Charlton people like Peter Varney, Rick Everitt, Wendy Perfect and, latterly, Matt Wright have left in what I'll describe as questionable circumstances make it more than reasonable to ask searching questions of the Board and its motives, in my opinion anyway.
Len
1. How does spending money on something that you are unable to afford that has no assets and will not give you a return on your money, compare with buying a business with assets and if managed well MAY lead to you paying off your loan and some.
2. We are getting further into debt but how is this different to most other football clubs. When the current board took over we were in division 1 and the plan was to get to the PL and I would say so far so good. If they are unable to take us to the next level are we not in a better position than before they arrived to get a buy or more finance.
3. I did not say you have abused the board and have already said that supports have every right to keep a keen interest on what is going on behind the scenes, but to be honest with you I am not one of those.
4. From what I know on a personal level Rick and Wendy have severed the club really well for many years and I am sorry that neither is now connected to the club as for Matt I am not sure who he is. Peter, Richard and Curbs were an ideal combination not sure what Peter's motivation was for coming back to the club.
I have no idea how old you are, but suspect you maybe too young to remember September 1985. Up until then we had allowed the Board to "run the club in the way they see fit", not least because there had some investment on the playing side and we looked like we would challenge for promotion. Then we got a piece of paper telling us that we were moving to Selhurst Park next week, but that the 75 bus would take us directly there, and that the pitch at Selhurst is always in first class condition. We then "reacted when they gave us a reason". We invaded the pitch. Fat lot of good that did. The deal was done.
Some of us that day said 'never again'. That is why we take a closer interest in what goes on in the boardroom.
Prague I am 50 today and have been going to the Valley for 42 years. I remember our last game at home and was on the pitch at half time, but if my memory serves me well I am sure that everyone knew this was coming. I am all for fans taking an interest in what is going on behind the scenes but I want to know why there is so much criticism of the board.
Happy Birthday
Well you are the first person I ever met who claimed they knew it was coming. I never up to now met a single person who had the remotest idea. And to my knowledge nor did Airman Brown who was both a member of the supporters club and becoming interested in a career in journalism.
Mike Norris was a friend of my uncles. My uncle and Mike Bailey had the Valley Club at the time and it was common knowledge to a lot of people I knew that we were going. I am not sure who but Palace was not the first choice either.
Well this becomes interesting, at least for people like me of a certain age.
It happens that my brother was a schoolmate of Norris's son Doug, and that was the first bewildered call we made when we got home after getting the piece of paper. But that just illustrates how completely in the dark ordinary fans were.
The question is, why didn't you and these others who were in know, SAY SOMETHING?
As I say I thought it was common knowledge, did we not have supports laying wreaths in front of the tunnel before the game and I may have got this wrong but did someone not lay a coffin in front of the directors box.
That was all at the Stoke game, the final actual game. The announcement was made prior to the derby against Palace, two weeks earlier. Every single person I knew was utterly stunned at that game.
You said that you knew in advance because of your connections to the Valley Club, and as I understand it, you think a lot of other people knew in advance too. If that is so, and I appreciate its a long time ago, did you not find it to be a terrible idea? Did you not share this with fellow fans?
I don't earn a great deal of money but I do have a credit card with a big limit.
This lunch time I could walk to the Travel Agent up the road and spend £5k or more on a trip to Australia courtesy of that credit card.
Whilst on my jaunt I would be thinking how great life is and how much better things are than they have been.
However after a few weeks I'd have to return home and go back to work with a big debt plus interest.
That is the stark reality.
To try and answer your question Vincent I suspect many, like me, are wary as to how the Board are financing the comparatively good times you validly refer too in your opening post rather like my hypothetical trip Down Under.
Len this is a misleading way of looking at our situation. The current board did not get us into debt they inherit it. Now rather then get into further debt by booking another holiday they are unable to afford they are making every effort to pay off the debt and earn more money before being able to afford an even better holiday in the future. For this year they are having a better holiday than last year and the year before and want to make sure that next years holiday will be better in not what they would really like
How is it misleading?
As you say yourself the Board inherited debt. As you say yourself we've not sold assets to finance that debt (or the bits of it that have not been deferred). High figures within the Club, including Slater, have mentioned that we are losing around £7m per annum.
Those losses have to be absorbed somehow.
I, and others it seems, suspect it is being done by the footballing equivalent of my maxing out my credit card for my holiday. In other words taking on yet more debt.
I have not abused the Board but the concerns I've mentioned above given the FACT that proven Charlton people like Peter Varney, Rick Everitt, Wendy Perfect and, latterly, Matt Wright have left in what I'll describe as questionable circumstances make it more than reasonable to ask searching questions of the Board and its motives, in my opinion anyway.
Len
1. How does spending money on something that you are unable to afford that has no assets and will not give you a return on your money, compare with buying a business with assets and if managed well MAY lead to you paying off your loan and some.
2. We are getting further into debt but how is this different to most other football clubs. When the current board took over we were in division 1 and the plan was to get to the PL and I would say so far so good. If they are unable to take us to the next level are we not in a better position than before they arrived to get a buy or more finance.
3. I did not say you have abused the board and have already said that supports have every right to keep a keen interest on what is going on behind the scenes, but to be honest with you I am not one of those.
4. From what I know on a personal level Rick and Wendy have severed the club really well for many years and I am sorry that neither is now connected to the club as for Matt I am not sure who he is. Peter, Richard and Curbs were an ideal combination not sure what Peter's motivation was for coming back to the club.
1. If it all goes "tits up" bankruptcy is the end result in both scenarios.
In 1984 Charlton were famously 45 minutes from oblivion. A new board came in yet 18 months later we were playing our football in Croydon!
2. Don't know if we are in a better position or not. It all depends on how things have been financed. There are sufficient numbers of proven eminent Charlton people expressing concern to justify supporters having a ..." keen interest on what is going on behind the scenes".....as you acknowledge.
3. You used the term "abuse" in responding to DRF hence my mentioning that it is not something I personally have done.
4. Reference Peter Varney as far as I am aware it was he who introduced and recommended the present owners. I find it concerning that he of all people then subsequently left in "questionable" circumstances.
I have no idea how old you are, but suspect you maybe too young to remember September 1985. Up until then we had allowed the Board to "run the club in the way they see fit", not least because there had some investment on the playing side and we looked like we would challenge for promotion. Then we got a piece of paper telling us that we were moving to Selhurst Park next week, but that the 75 bus would take us directly there, and that the pitch at Selhurst is always in first class condition. We then "reacted when they gave us a reason". We invaded the pitch. Fat lot of good that did. The deal was done.
Some of us that day said 'never again'. That is why we take a closer interest in what goes on in the boardroom.
Prague I am 50 today and have been going to the Valley for 42 years. I remember our last game at home and was on the pitch at half time, but if my memory serves me well I am sure that everyone knew this was coming. I am all for fans taking an interest in what is going on behind the scenes but I want to know why there is so much criticism of the board.
Happy Birthday
Well you are the first person I ever met who claimed they knew it was coming. I never up to now met a single person who had the remotest idea. And to my knowledge nor did Airman Brown who was both a member of the supporters club and becoming interested in a career in journalism.
Mike Norris was a friend of my uncles. My uncle and Mike Bailey had the Valley Club at the time and it was common knowledge to a lot of people I knew that we were going. I am not sure who but Palace was not the first choice either.
Well this becomes interesting, at least for people like me of a certain age.
It happens that my brother was a schoolmate of Norris's son Doug, and that was the first bewildered call we made when we got home after getting the piece of paper. But that just illustrates how completely in the dark ordinary fans were.
The question is, why didn't you and these others who were in know, SAY SOMETHING?
As I say I thought it was common knowledge, did we not have supports laying wreaths in front of the tunnel before the game and I may have got this wrong but did someone not lay a coffin in front of the directors box.
That was all at the Stoke game, the final actual game. The announcement was made prior to the derby against Palace, two weeks earlier. Every single person I knew was utterly stunned at that game.
You said that you knew in advance because of your connections to the Valley Club, and as I understand it, you think a lot of other people knew in advance too. If that is so, and I appreciate its a long time ago, did you not find it to be a terrible idea? Did you not share this with fellow fans?
Again from memory. We had to leave the Valley due to the poor condition of the ground and no money to carry out major repairs. If I remember correctly the East Stand had been closed for some time. For whatever reason no one at the club at director level accepted ownership of the ground or more likely the lease. My uncle and Mike were unable to pay rent for the Valley Club because all those concerned with the Valley refused payment and responsibility for the ground. There was no security guards, the ground was derelict and despite there being a lot of angry supports at the Stoke game it was always going to happen. The ground had been neglected for years and again if memory serves me well was it not Mark Hulier and Sunley who ran the club into the ground.
Everyone I knew was gutted when we left the Valley, but back in the day I would not have had a clue who knew and who didn't let alone get it out to a wider audience.
I don't earn a great deal of money but I do have a credit card with a big limit.
This lunch time I could walk to the Travel Agent up the road and spend £5k or more on a trip to Australia courtesy of that credit card.
Whilst on my jaunt I would be thinking how great life is and how much better things are than they have been.
However after a few weeks I'd have to return home and go back to work with a big debt plus interest.
That is the stark reality.
To try and answer your question Vincent I suspect many, like me, are wary as to how the Board are financing the comparatively good times you validly refer too in your opening post rather like my hypothetical trip Down Under.
Len this is a misleading way of looking at our situation. The current board did not get us into debt they inherit it. Now rather then get into further debt by booking another holiday they are unable to afford they are making every effort to pay off the debt and earn more money before being able to afford an even better holiday in the future. For this year they are having a better holiday than last year and the year before and want to make sure that next years holiday will be better in not what they would really like
How is it misleading?
As you say yourself the Board inherited debt. As you say yourself we've not sold assets to finance that debt (or the bits of it that have not been deferred). High figures within the Club, including Slater, have mentioned that we are losing around £7m per annum.
Those losses have to be absorbed somehow.
I, and others it seems, suspect it is being done by the footballing equivalent of my maxing out my credit card for my holiday. In other words taking on yet more debt.
I have not abused the Board but the concerns I've mentioned above given the FACT that proven Charlton people like Peter Varney, Rick Everitt, Wendy Perfect and, latterly, Matt Wright have left in what I'll describe as questionable circumstances make it more than reasonable to ask searching questions of the Board and its motives, in my opinion anyway.
Len
1. How does spending money on something that you are unable to afford that has no assets and will not give you a return on your money, compare with buying a business with assets and if managed well MAY lead to you paying off your loan and some.
2. We are getting further into debt but how is this different to most other football clubs. When the current board took over we were in division 1 and the plan was to get to the PL and I would say so far so good. If they are unable to take us to the next level are we not in a better position than before they arrived to get a buy or more finance.
3. I did not say you have abused the board and have already said that supports have every right to keep a keen interest on what is going on behind the scenes, but to be honest with you I am not one of those.
4. From what I know on a personal level Rick and Wendy have severed the club really well for many years and I am sorry that neither is now connected to the club as for Matt I am not sure who he is. Peter, Richard and Curbs were an ideal combination not sure what Peter's motivation was for coming back to the club.
1. If it all goes "tits up" bankruptcy is the end result in both scenarios.
In 1984 Charlton were famously 45 minutes from oblivion. A new board came in yet 18 months later we were playing our football in Croydon!
2. Don't know if we are in a better position or not. It all depends on how things have been financed. There are sufficient numbers of proven eminent Charlton people expressing concern to justify supporters having a ..." keen interest on what is going on behind the scenes".....as you acknowledge.
3. You used the term "abuse" in responding to DRF hence my mentioning that it is not something I personally have done.
4. Reference Peter Varney as far as I am aware it was he who introduced and recommended the present owners. I find it concerning that he of all people then subsequently left in "questionable" circumstances.
1. How many teams have gone bankrupt? how many go into liquidation and come out better for it?
2. We are now a step closer to PL and that imo would make us more attractive to potential investors/buyers and where I sit there were a lot more positive views about where we are/going than when RM was trying to off load the club. And I reply to you saying it is good that supporters take an interest in what is going on. I want someone to post facts which show the club is not being run correctly and up to now this has not happened.
3. People on here have been abusive towards the board take another look at the £40 million thread.
4. I understand why you should be concerned about Peter, Wendy and Rick's treatment but I am not because I do not have a clue why any of them is no longer with the Club, and again I am only interested in facts
I have no idea how old you are, but suspect you maybe too young to remember September 1985. Up until then we had allowed the Board to "run the club in the way they see fit", not least because there had some investment on the playing side and we looked like we would challenge for promotion. Then we got a piece of paper telling us that we were moving to Selhurst Park next week, but that the 75 bus would take us directly there, and that the pitch at Selhurst is always in first class condition. We then "reacted when they gave us a reason". We invaded the pitch. Fat lot of good that did. The deal was done.
Some of us that day said 'never again'. That is why we take a closer interest in what goes on in the boardroom.
Prague I am 50 today and have been going to the Valley for 42 years. I remember our last game at home and was on the pitch at half time, but if my memory serves me well I am sure that everyone knew this was coming. I am all for fans taking an interest in what is going on behind the scenes but I want to know why there is so much criticism of the board.
Happy Birthday
Well you are the first person I ever met who claimed they knew it was coming. I never up to now met a single person who had the remotest idea. And to my knowledge nor did Airman Brown who was both a member of the supporters club and becoming interested in a career in journalism.
Mike Norris was a friend of my uncles. My uncle and Mike Bailey had the Valley Club at the time and it was common knowledge to a lot of people I knew that we were going. I am not sure who but Palace was not the first choice either.
Well this becomes interesting, at least for people like me of a certain age.
It happens that my brother was a schoolmate of Norris's son Doug, and that was the first bewildered call we made when we got home after getting the piece of paper. But that just illustrates how completely in the dark ordinary fans were.
The question is, why didn't you and these others who were in know, SAY SOMETHING?
As I say I thought it was common knowledge, did we not have supports laying wreaths in front of the tunnel before the game and I may have got this wrong but did someone not lay a coffin in front of the directors box.
That was all at the Stoke game, the final actual game. The announcement was made prior to the derby against Palace, two weeks earlier. Every single person I knew was utterly stunned at that game.
You said that you knew in advance because of your connections to the Valley Club, and as I understand it, you think a lot of other people knew in advance too. If that is so, and I appreciate its a long time ago, did you not find it to be a terrible idea? Did you not share this with fellow fans?
Again from memory. We had to leave the Valley due to the poor condition of the ground and no money to carry out major repairs. If I remember correctly the East Stand had been closed for some time. For whatever reason no one at the club at director level accepted ownership of the ground or more likely the lease. My uncle and Mike were unable to pay rent for the Valley Club because all those concerned with the Valley refused payment and responsibility for the ground. There was no security guards, the ground was derelict and despite there being a lot of angry supports at the Stoke game it was always going to happen. The ground had been neglected for years and again if memory serves me well was it not Mark Hulier and Sunley who ran the club into the ground.
Everyone I knew was gutted when we left the Valley, but back in the day I would not have had a clue who knew and who didn't let alone get it out to a wider audience.
Sunley was part of the consortium which took us to Selhurst. I think I will leave any further discussion on this to Airman Brown, assuming he has the time and inclination.
"Lens analogy does not reflect in any way shape or form how Charlton is managed"
I don't know how to run a football club, nor any real understanding of how the various directors/ owners have run it in the past. But I know that I wouldn't argue with Prague/ Airmen/ Len at al when it comes to that stuff. If you're genuinely interested in understanding why people feel the way they do, then you'd listen, rather than counter every single point. Nobody is wrong to feel a certain way, how you feel is how you feel. You're not extending your understanding, you're trying to convince them they're wrong.
I don't respond to any of these threads because I have nothing to add. But this one is really irritating, 'cos you've asked people to explain, but argued with every single one of them.
As for your bankruptcy opinion - do you not care that all the small businesses we potentially owe money to would get nothing? I'm proud of RM for refusing to go down that road, for trying to do everything responsibly.
As for Peter/ Rick etc. - I don't know these guys personally. I just know they've done more than enough to earn our trust, and if they say they've been treated badly, I take their word for it. Each time I read that kind of message about them I get annoyed. If they want me to do anything to help their cause, I'd be there for them. Without the likes of Rick and co, we might not have a club to be concerned about in the first place.
"Lens analogy does not reflect in any way shape or form how Charlton is managed"
I don't know how to run a football club, nor any real understanding of how the various directors/ owners have run it in the past. But I know that I wouldn't argue with Prague/ Airmen/ Len at al when it comes to that stuff. If you're genuinely interested in understanding why people feel the way they do, then you'd listen, rather than counter every single point. Nobody is wrong to feel a certain way, how you feel is how you feel. You're not extending your understanding, you're trying to convince them they're wrong.
I don't respond to any of these threads because I have nothing to add. But this one is really irritating, 'cos you've asked people to explain, but argued with every single one of them.
As for your bankruptcy opinion - do you not care that all the small businesses we potentially owe money to would get nothing? I'm proud of RM for refusing to go down that road, for trying to do everything responsibly.
As for Peter/ Rick etc. - I don't know these guys personally. I just know they've done more than enough to earn our trust, and if they say they've been treated badly, I take their word for it. Each time I read that kind of message about them I get annoyed. If they want me to do anything to help their cause, I'd be there for them. Without the likes of Rick and co, we might not have a club to be concerned about in the first place.
Jimmy point to one thing that has been said on this post that tells you or me what the board are doing wrong. All I have mentioned is how much better it has been since they have taken over. Remember we could not afford to fix the big screen before they arrived.
All everyone goes on about it debt but they inherited the debt and are keeping the club afloat.
I don't have a bankruptcy opinion all what I said was how many teams have gone bankrupt as far as I know none so this not something that is going to happen and I do care that is why I spend what little money I have at the Valley.
As for Rick and Wendy I agree 100% with you Peter on the other hand I would imagine was well paid for his efforts
the easiest thing to say what they have done wrong is on every thread about TJ or his cronnies
there are 18 players out of contract in 10 months
plus SCP and all his staff
END OF
And this time next year we will have a squad manager and backroom staff which will be as good as we can afford. It is in the best interests of TJ and his cronnies to make sure of that. If we get promoted 14 of those players will need shifting IMO the same number as those that need shifting next season if we want promotion any time soon. Everyone wants us to do well yet if I were an investor with money to put into the playing staff I would not want to many of our current squad on long term contracts and may wish to have my own manager, they would have to take this into account when selling would they not.
the easiest thing to say what they have done wrong is on every thread about TJ or his cronnies
there are 18 players out of contract in 10 months
plus SCP and all his staff
END OF
And this time next year we will have a squad manager and backroom staff which will be as good as we can afford. It is in the best interests of TJ and his cronnies to make sure of that. If we get promoted 14 of those players will need shifting IMO the same number as those that need shifting next season if we want promotion any time soon. Everyone wants us to do well yet if I were an investor with money to put into the playing staff I would not want to many of our current squad on long term contracts and may wish to have my own manager, they would have to take this into account when selling would they not.
Good try of convincing me Vincent however
Hamer Morrison Solly Wiggins Yann
would command a fee that is reasonable between them had we kept them in contract I would suggest a figure close to 6 million for the whole group of 5 players
next season however when we are in either the championship or lge 1 they can all leave for free and that 6 million buffer that would have kept our club alive will Big tone and his cronies lick their wounds will see cafc in admin or worse
10 of the 19 yep I understand, SCP, DM, AD no way should they be free to leave next season for no money
This thread is absolutely insane. The man asks for examples of things that aren't right in the administration of the club and then is presented with evidence (i.e. the entire squad and management being out of contract in 10 months) and he doesn't see anything wrong with it.
Vincent, if the board said we could no longer afford the Valley and we were going to play at Welling to cut costs would you say "fair enough" ? I'm just trying to figure out where you personally draw the line before you realise something isn't quite right. Most football fans would not be best pleased if they found their club with the contract situation that we find at ours.
Peter Varney introduced the owners. Peter Varney then left in questionable circumstances.
The general lack of transparency means that "facts" as you define them are inevitably hard to come by.
However it is a fact that Peter has left, not amicably it would appear, thus it is not at all unreasonable to infer that things may not be as healthy as we would like behind the scenes.
This thread is absolutely insane. The man asks for examples of things that aren't right in the administration of the club and then is presented with evidence (i.e. the entire squad and management being out of contract in 10 months) and he doesn't see anything wrong with it.
Vincent, if the board said we could no longer afford the Valley and we were going to play at Welling to cut costs would you say "fair enough" ? I'm just trying to figure out where you personally draw the line before you realise something isn't quite right. Most football fans would not be best pleased if they found their club with the contract situation that we find at ours.
IMHO Solly and Kermo are the only players I would give extended contracts to. This is based on their quality and value. I have to assume that you would have to increase a players salary when extending his contract and how does that benefit a club that is losing money and how would it make us more attractive to potential buyers.
If Wiggins, Stephens or Pritchard are sold to make way for Obika then they have to be taken out of the equation.
Leaving the Valley would only be an option to me if we went to the GP with a bigger stadium. You like myself support the Club, the problem is with those 9000 that you won't see at the Valley until we are back in the PL when their financial contribution will count for nothing.
Comments
As you say yourself the Board inherited debt. As you say yourself we've not sold assets to finance that debt (or the bits of it that have not been deferred). High figures within the Club, including Slater, have mentioned that we are losing around £7m per annum.
Those losses have to be absorbed somehow.
I, and others it seems, suspect it is being done by the footballing equivalent of my maxing out my credit card for my holiday. In other words taking on yet more debt.
I have not abused the Board but the concerns I've mentioned above given the FACT that proven Charlton people like Peter Varney, Rick Everitt, Wendy Perfect and, latterly, Matt Wright have left in what I'll describe as questionable circumstances make it more than reasonable to ask searching questions of the Board and its motives, in my opinion anyway.
It happens that my brother was a schoolmate of Norris's son Doug, and that was the first bewildered call we made when we got home after getting the piece of paper. But that just illustrates how completely in the dark ordinary fans were.
The question is, why didn't you and these others who were in know, SAY SOMETHING?
1. How does spending money on something that you are unable to afford that has no assets and will not give you a return on your money, compare with buying a business with assets and if managed well MAY lead to you paying off your loan and some.
2. We are getting further into debt but how is this different to most other football clubs. When the current board took over we were in division 1 and the plan was to get to the PL and I would say so far so good. If they are unable to take us to the next level are we not in a better position than before they arrived to get a buy or more finance.
3. I did not say you have abused the board and have already said that supports have every right to keep a keen interest on what is going on behind the scenes, but to be honest with you I am not one of those.
4. From what I know on a personal level Rick and Wendy have severed the club really well for many years and I am sorry that neither is now connected to the club as for Matt I am not sure who he is. Peter, Richard and Curbs were an ideal combination not sure what Peter's motivation was for coming back to the club.
You said that you knew in advance because of your connections to the Valley Club, and as I understand it, you think a lot of other people knew in advance too. If that is so, and I appreciate its a long time ago, did you not find it to be a terrible idea? Did you not share this with fellow fans?
1. If it all goes "tits up" bankruptcy is the end result in both scenarios.
In 1984 Charlton were famously 45 minutes from oblivion. A new board came in yet 18 months later we were playing our football in Croydon!
2. Don't know if we are in a better position or not. It all depends on how things have been financed. There are sufficient numbers of proven eminent Charlton people expressing concern to justify supporters having a ..." keen interest on what is going on behind the scenes".....as you acknowledge.
3. You used the term "abuse" in responding to DRF hence my mentioning that it is not something I personally have done.
4. Reference Peter Varney as far as I am aware it was he who introduced and recommended the present owners. I find it concerning that he of all people then subsequently left in "questionable" circumstances.
Everyone I knew was gutted when we left the Valley, but back in the day I would not have had a clue who knew and who didn't let alone get it out to a wider audience.
2. We are now a step closer to PL and that imo would make us more attractive to potential investors/buyers and where I sit there were a lot more positive views about where we are/going than when RM was trying to off load the club. And I reply to you saying it is good that supporters take an interest in what is going on. I want someone to post facts which show the club is not being run correctly and up to now this has not happened.
3. People on here have been abusive towards the board take another look at the £40 million thread.
4. I understand why you should be concerned about Peter, Wendy and Rick's treatment but I am not because I do not have a clue why any of them is no longer with the Club, and again I am only interested in facts
"Lens analogy does not reflect in any way shape or form how Charlton is managed"
I don't know how to run a football club, nor any real understanding of how the various directors/ owners have run it in the past. But I know that I wouldn't argue with Prague/ Airmen/ Len at al when it comes to that stuff. If you're genuinely interested in understanding why people feel the way they do, then you'd listen, rather than counter every single point. Nobody is wrong to feel a certain way, how you feel is how you feel. You're not extending your understanding, you're trying to convince them they're wrong.
I don't respond to any of these threads because I have nothing to add. But this one is really irritating, 'cos you've asked people to explain, but argued with every single one of them.
As for your bankruptcy opinion - do you not care that all the small businesses we potentially owe money to would get nothing? I'm proud of RM for refusing to go down that road, for trying to do everything responsibly.
As for Peter/ Rick etc. - I don't know these guys personally. I just know they've done more than enough to earn our trust, and if they say they've been treated badly, I take their word for it. Each time I read that kind of message about them I get annoyed. If they want me to do anything to help their cause, I'd be there for them. Without the likes of Rick and co, we might not have a club to be concerned about in the first place.
All everyone goes on about it debt but they inherited the debt and are keeping the club afloat.
I don't have a bankruptcy opinion all what I said was how many teams have gone bankrupt as far as I know none so this not something that is going to happen and I do care that is why I spend what little money I have at the Valley.
As for Rick and Wendy I agree 100% with you Peter on the other hand I would imagine was well paid for his efforts
there are 18 players out of contract in 10 months
plus SCP and all his staff
END OF
Everyone wants us to do well yet if I were an investor with money to put into the playing staff I would not want to many of our current squad on long term contracts and may wish to have my own manager, they would have to take this into account when selling would they not.
Hamer
Morrison
Solly
Wiggins
Yann
would command a fee that is reasonable between them had we kept them in contract I would suggest a figure close to 6 million for the whole group of 5 players
next season however when we are in either the championship or lge 1 they can all leave for free and that 6 million buffer that would have kept our club alive will Big tone and his cronies lick their wounds will see cafc in admin or worse
10 of the 19 yep I understand, SCP, DM, AD no way should they be free to leave next season for no money
Vincent, if the board said we could no longer afford the Valley and we were going to play at Welling to cut costs would you say "fair enough" ? I'm just trying to figure out where you personally draw the line before you realise something isn't quite right. Most football fans would not be best pleased if they found their club with the contract situation that we find at ours.
To wind up people like you :-)
Next question
Peter Varney introduced the owners. Peter Varney then left in questionable circumstances.
The general lack of transparency means that "facts" as you define them are inevitably hard to come by.
However it is a fact that Peter has left, not amicably it would appear, thus it is not at all unreasonable to infer that things may not be as healthy as we would like behind the scenes.
We will have to agree to disagree I think.
I have to assume that you would have to increase a players salary when extending his contract and how does that benefit a club that is losing money and how would it make us more attractive to potential buyers.
If Wiggins, Stephens or Pritchard are sold to make way for Obika then they have to be taken out of the equation.
Leaving the Valley would only be an option to me if we went to the GP with a bigger stadium. You like myself support the Club, the problem is with those 9000 that you won't see at the Valley until we are back in the PL when their financial contribution will count for nothing.
AFKA to you really think I get would up by people like them.
When the current board took over at Charlton RM could not give the club away.