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A little bit of unknown Charlton history ?

edited August 2013 in General Charlton
* as posted on the Charlton v Chelsea - War Cup Final * Thread.

I thought i would tell a little story about the war cup final against Chelsea that maybe nobody has ever heard before.

About 15 years ago i used to work with a man called Gordon Bates. He was in the Royal air force during the second word war and as one of the few British soldiers that survived the drop on Arnhem in Holland.
He told me of a story where his unit were given free tickets to the war cup final Charlton v Chelsea in 1944 .

During the game there was a lot of light hearted banter going around between the British and American military in the stands. That was until half time.

During the interval the British Army band were performing on the pitch when the trumpeter at the front tripped and fell over , followed by half a dozen others who fell over him.

At this point the Yanks laughed their heads of at what they had seen .

The royal Air force guys were having none of it. What happened next , according to Gordon , there was an almighty free for all between the British and Americans that involves at least 100 military scrapping with each other behind the goal !.

I can see his face now , chuckling , telling me how it kicked off at Wembley in 1944.

5 months later , most of that RAF unit who watched Charlton V Chelsea , died after being parachuted into a suicidal mission in , Arnhem , Holland.

I lost contact with Gordon. I don't expect he is around any more as he would be in his 90's but i will never forget that story along with the horrific ones he told me about Arnhem.
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Comments

  • Brilliant, love hearing old stories like this
  • Nice one Beds. Can just imagine them bouncing around before going toe to toe in their suit and ties. The real problem was when the 40k Brits were kept behind to let the yanks onto their train back to base.
  • That fella who owns millwall is a yank , typical
  • Next time you're grumbling about the old boy in front of you at the turnstile with his flask and blanket who can't find his season ticket, remember he could have been one of the top boys at Wembley that day.
  • bloody hooligans!!
  • Next time you're grumbling about the old boy in front of you at the turnstile with his flask and blanket who can't find his season ticket, remember he could have been one of the top boys at Wembley that day.

    This!



  • Great story Beds, were they Glider Pilot Regiment as opposed to RAF? I have a list of them all by names so may be able to help you with a bit of his military history
  • SE7toSG3 said:

    Great story Beds, were they Glider Pilot Regiment as opposed to RAF? I have a list of them all by names so may be able to help you with a bit of his military history

    I have no idea what regiment . All I know was that he parachuted into Arnhem and his name was Gordon Bates and he lived in Cambridgeshire .
  • let me be the first to say great work above ...fantastic ,sort of thing that makes our supporters so very special
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  • @SE7toSG3

    Fantastic work . Thank you very much .
    That Definitely is Gordon , I can see by the photo .
    He told me many stories about his time in WWII but it was Arnhem that I remember most. He was/is a superb bloke but very rarely showed emotion . The only time I ever saw emotion from him was when he recalled what happened in Holland.
    He told me that he got hit by something during an insuring battle and woke up in a temporary coffin along side his dead pals.
    He said that he panicked so badly , because he thought he was buried . While he told me this he cried.
    From that day on he always slept with the light on in his bedroom.

    I would love to think he was still alive but I doubt it. I last saw him 15 + years ago and he was in his mid seventies then and not in the greatest of health , despite playing a round of golf every day .

    Thanks again .
  • Great story, Beds. My old Dad was a stoker in the Navy in WWII and you don't see much fighting in the bowels of a ship. He said it regularly kicked off when in port between the Brits and the Yanks though. He might have been sunk twice, but that was the only actual fighting he did.

    In fact he got demoted because of one of them. They were in Japan (might have been the Korean War by then) and the Roysl Navy had access to booze but no women and the US had the reverse. him and a Yank swapped uniforms so the old man could have a crack at a geisha but the Yank didn't show up to swap uniforms back. As you can imagine, showing up at a Royal Navy ship in another country's uniform got him in major trouble and he was demoted from Leading Stoker. He's 92 now and still an avid, if armchair, supporter of CAFC.
  • Great story Beds and super research SE7toSG3. Gotta love Charlton Life.
  • edited August 2013
    I am one of those lucky people whose passion/hobby became my job so its my pleasure.

    I have taken a number of veterans back to Arnhem over the years and its a very humbling story, this chap Glenn Embury, was telling me how he believed that the Operation was in part down to pushing the line forward so to overrun the V weapon sites on the Walcheren Island's & take the pressure off London.

    He was a Canadian and so complimentary about London and Londoner's who opened their doors to him and offered all they had when he was homesick, he kept their hardships at the forefront of his mind during the darkest days of the battle, sadly the veterans are passing away fast now so treasure any time you get with them to keep stories like the one Bedsaddick told alive
  • Vincenzo said:

    Great story, Beds. My old Dad was a stoker in the Navy in WWII and you don't see much fighting in the bowels of a ship. He said it regularly kicked off when in port between the Brits and the Yanks though. He might have been sunk twice, but that was the only actual fighting he did.

    In fact he got demoted because of one of them. They were in Japan (might have been the Korean War by then) and the Roysl Navy had access to booze but no women and the US had the reverse. him and a Yank swapped uniforms so the old man could have a crack at a geisha but the Yank didn't show up to swap uniforms back. As you can imagine, showing up at a Royal Navy ship in another country's uniform got him in major trouble and he was demoted from Leading Stoker. He's 92 now and still an avid, if armchair, supporter of CAFC.

    Great story Vincenzo !
  • edited August 2013
    SE7toSG3 sorry to bother you, but my father told me of piece of our family history concerning Arnhem, but to my knowledge this has never been confirmed. Just to tell you that due to an argument prior to the war the family split apart a still haven't reunited, no idea what it was about. But 2 off our family almost certainly his brothers could have been twins parachuted into Arnhem, one was Phil Letchford, the other I don't his first name was, but obviously he was a Letchford as well, but the fact that I find amazing and not certain is true was that they where both 16 or 17, they where meant to have been captured early on, I believe they spent a long while in a prisoner of war camp. Be very interested if you could confirm or otherwise these stories.

    If you ever do a trip out, let me know, I would definitely be interested.
    Thanks in advance, Kerry
  • Hi Kerry I will look them up for you when back in the office Wednesday and see what I can find, leave it with me
  • edited August 2013
    SE7toSG3, thanks very much being the oldest left alive on my side of the split family feel I should pass the info on somehow, have done it with my father history, who fought in Burma for nearly 4 years. Just remembered the other one was Arthur Letchford.
  • Morning Kerry, both brothers were in 2 Para, part of the first airborne division, they were a little older than you thought, Arthur Letchford & Phil Letchford joined the battalion in North Africa after training in December 1942 aged 18.

    They had some excitement onroute when their ship the Strathallen was sunk by a torpedo but were rescued safely. The saw action in North Africa, both being wounded, Arthur a fairly serious stomach wound and were also involved in partisan operations in Yugoslavia before heading back to the UK to retrain for the NW Europe Campaign.

    During Operation Market Garden Philip served with C Company, evaded capture and was rescued by the Canadian Engineers across the Rhine whilst Arthur who was a 3" Mortar Man was captured on the Bridge after 3/4 days fighting, (his Company Commander John Greyburn was awarded a VC) he spend the remainder of the war in Stallag 11B near Fallingbostal.

    You should source a copy of "without tradition" by Robert Pealing as both the twins are heavily quoted in it, they were living in Herne Bay until recently and Arthur was still visiting Arnhem last September so may well be still alive, I think Phillip died a couple of years ago now there are quite a few pictures of Arthur taken by by people visiting Arnhem up on Flikr so if you google search his name you will see him in Beret with medals and stuff.

    Hope above is of interest, Operation Market Garden is the most well documented campaign I know of where as its a lot harder to obtain personal details on men who served in Normandy, North Africa, Italy or Burma.
  • Thanks very much, that's extremely interesting, will have to do a bit of research. I know what you mean about Burma been trying to do a bit of research on my father, he said very little about his time out there, other than he was never captured and they never took any prisoners, he wasn't a Chindit but he was behind the Japanese lines for long periods.

    Anyway thank again for the info on Phil and Arthur, wouldn't mind taking a wander out there one day and having a look around.
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  • edited August 2013
    It's threads like this that make Charlton Life so worthwhile despite all the bickering and point scoring elsewhere.

    Great work SE7 to SG3.
  • edited August 2013
    I would like to say thank you, to SE7toSG3 because without his help I wouldn't have been able to find out some history of my family and their bravery, I would have put a copy of an email I received today re Arthur's and Phillips war, unfortunately its to long. What a tremendous life my 2 uncles had. If anybody should want to read the email I would be willing to forward it to them and SE7toSG3 thanks, I think I will take a wander over to Arnhem so if you are doing a visit over there (for some reason I got it into my head you organise tours?) then let me know,

    Below is to just a small section of the info.

    Arnhem
    After fighting in North Africa, Sicily and Italy the 1st Airborne Division was brought home to Britain in preparation for the attack on Europe. The 6th Airborne Division was used in the D-Day assault whilst my Division was held in readiness for action as required; this involved some sixteen (as I recall) plans for operations, but the speed of the Allied advance made all these operations obsolete before being brought to fruition.

    However, General Montgomery devised Operation Market Garden to create a dagger thrust at the heart of Germany using the American 82 nd and 101st Airborne Divisions; and the British 1st Airborne Divisions and Polish Brigade. Enough has been written about the disaster of Arnhem to negate the need for me to enlarge upon that debacle, therefore I will only touch upon the battle as it affected me.

    The Arnhem Bridge
    I was a mortar man situated on a grassy traffic island just to the north of the bridge and my 3” mortar was brought into good use to cause considerable damage to the enemy forces. One of this weapon’s major disadvantages was the weight of the mortar bombs which limited the number which could be carried.

    After firing off all the bombs available we removed the mortar’s firing pin to render it inoperable, hid the weapon, and joined the rest of my company in a school yard which was surrounded by a wall. There was no shortage of rifles and Stens discarded by wounded or dead paratroopers, but there was a severe shortage of ammunition. We emptied the pouches of the dead and wounded and thus produced a tiny arsenal with which to drive back the Germans.

    For my part, as fast as the Germans were lobbing their potato-masher grenades over the wall, I kept poking my rifle over the top and fired blindly. It must have had some effect as the enemy beat a hasty retreat. This was during the latter stage of the fighting. We were dog tired, filthy, hungry, without medical supplies, and thirsty but still hopeful of being relieved. We were prepared to carry on but the time inevitably came when Col. John Frost realised that without anything left with which to fight we had no option but to surrender.

    Capture
    One of my first encounters face-to-face with Germans was with the young blackguards of the Hitler Youth who each tried to outdo the other in pushing. beating, and kicking their helpless enemy. Luckily the regular troops saw what was happening and with a few well directed kicks up the backside sent these little thugs packing. To our surprise we next had to remove our boots. It was alleged that they were to be sent to German troops who desperately needed footwear on the Russian front.

    With typical Para astuteness we cut off the large pockets from our para’ smocks to make improvised shoes. During the next interrogation we were warned that any escape equipment on our persons would result in severe penalties for the miscreant. In consequence silk maps and compasses were produced in abundance although a few men still tried to keep these items in the hope of using them during future escape attempts.
  • Wonderful thread. Great job SE7toSG3.
  • SE7toSG3 - once again I am astounded by your knowledge and dedication. Make sure you make time to meet for a drink soon.
  • What an eye opener. Great thread, and all because it kicked off against the shermans at Wembley!
  • edited August 2013
    Thanks Charlton Kerry, would love to see the email, I do run a tour company and we go to Arnhem every couple of years, 2014 is nearly all Great War stuff but I am happy to recommend another tour company for you, alternately if you could wait maybe we could do something over the winter when my tours season is over along a few mates in a car type arrangement?

    Our tours are pretty high end stuff so we could keep the costs minimal and equally I could enjoy the trip a little more, I am hoping to put together a similar trip to the Somme for a few lifers who have asked first but would also like to get to Arnhem soon.

    Ralph, will try and stick my head in the ROD for a beer over the next couple of home games or is there a Woolwich Gamesmaker reunion in the offing?
  • Stig said:

    Great story Beds and super research SE7toSG3. Gotta love Charlton Life.

    +1. What a great thread.
  • Philip Letchford is my dad, who is still alive. Therefore I feel need to clarify the facts. He is one of six children 4 boys, Arthur Letchford his twin, Dennis (known as Bill) and Robert who died over 25 years ago and 2 sisters. My dad Philip and his twin brother were at Arnhem, luckily they survived and are both still with us today and approaching their 90th Birthday. I am very interested in the post from Kerry, who believes she is related. There was definitely no other brothers, which has been confirmed not only by my dad but also from the family tree, or could it be by marriage?. There was more than one Letchford family in the area, but we have no evidence of being related. It would be helpful to know the name of the person who has passed on this story to see if there is a link somewhere along the line. It is really pleasing to read all of the recognition that has been generated from this post for my dad and Arthur who were very brave and has made us so proud.
  • Sensitive and heart-warming thread. Not only a unique Football Club but a special Charlton Family when it comes to the fans.
  • Wow, never read this thread before. Fantastic stuff
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