1% Rise in benefits

Fortune 82nd Minute

OK, whilst we all debate the merits, or otherwise, of Charlton's last game/Red Division/latest rumoured signing, in the real world a debate is currently taking place in the House of Commons which will limit the increase in certain benefits to 1 per cent over the next three years.

I will nail my colours firmly to the mast. I hate this Government more and more as their continued attacks on the sick, unemployed and disabled get more vitrolic every day. Sure, we all know the odd person who is content to live on benefits but I refuse to believe this country is full of ""shirkers" as the rich boy Gideon suggests. Indeed, I currently have 2 friends who have been made redundant through no fault of their own who are struggling hugely to put food on their table AND heat their house at the moment. And the "Looking for work thread" on this site is full of sad stories from fellow CAFC fans who find themselves in the same situation.

This 1 per cent cap is morally wrong, hitting as it does the poorest in our society the most. I urge you to remember who implemented it when the time next comes to vote.

Blinkant

What do you expect from the Tory?

soapy_jones

Half an hour for this one. "ADMIN"

Covered End

I agree we need to keep borrowing billions more. If we don't how will Nathan be able to afford his train, beer & match tickets. We only owe a trillion don't we ? We might as well work towards the 2nd trillion.

Alternatively, let's increase the taxes of the workers.

PS I know plenty of shirkers. When I worked in Welling a whole family used to sit in Weatherspoons all day long, eating & drinking. Aged between 18-45. Our taxes were paying for them to do that daily, whilst we went to work to pay for them.

1 hr 59m & counting.

ShootersHillGuru

Easy target. I'm all for coming down hard on the work shy and cheats but there are an awful lot of genuinely struggling people for any number of reasons from unemployment to disability. How the elderly, disabled and other groups on benefit can afford to heat their homes is just beyond me.

charltonkeston

we're all in it together. Some more than others.............

Algarveaddick

Covered End said:

I agree we need to keep borrowing billions more. If we don't how will Nathan be able to afford his train, beer & match tickets. We only owe a trillion don't we ? We might as well work towards the 2nd trillion.

Alternatively, let's increase the taxes of the workers.

1 hr 59m & counting.

Extraordinary.

LenGlover

I'm no defender of the Conservatives and "Cast Iron Guarantee" Dave but the disparity between rich and poor increased under Labour beween 1997 and 2010.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/8481534.stm

and

http://fullfact.org/factchecks/ids_on_income_inequality-28478

In other words Labour are no better!

The LibLabCon do not represent the ordinary, decent people of this country yet, dependent on where one lives, a pig wearing a blue or red rosette would be elected by the 40% or so that can be bothered to vote these days.

Spoil your paper or vote UKIP who, despite some shortcomings, at least offer something different.

There's not a fag paper to choose between the main 3. It's all green taxes, give more to the EU and reward incompetence at director level in both the Public and Private sectors.

Jodaius

My understanding is that the proposed cap applies only to certain working age benefits, i.e. it doesn't affect the state pension or disability benefits. In which case comments about the government attacking the elderly and disabled are misleading. I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong.

The fact is that there is an element within the population that views the benefit system as a way of life. It's not all claimants, it's not even most, but it does exist and needs to be tackled. At a time when workers in both the public and private sectors are facing wage freezes and cuts, taking steps to attempt to make work more attractive than benefits doesn't seem an unreasonable step.

nth_london_addick

As a family my household has been hit quite bad via the working and family tax credit cuts

I am totally annoyed by it but I accept it and I get on with it because things can't continue the same

It has meant a lot of cuts to things I our lives and some months my money doesn't seem to stretch enough and I have to find alternative means if earning

However I have two kids my choice , house mine not rented my choice

A car my choice

Ballet lessons for my daughter my choice

All the impact cuts of my house hold are mine and the wife

I do not go to footie as much I try to pick the games carefully but I also get ten home games free a season which helps me

The wife doesn't go to the salons as much and has not gone out and bought clothing for herself in the manor she used to

The tax be fits we received Enabled us to be able to have the treats in life that we both liked and maintain the house and other things without having to be so cautious

Was that right , well we both work we both pay tax , not just on wages but fuel etc

We pay nearly 400 a month to have child care and about 100 a month in nursery fees

Now we have about 50 quid a month each as disposable cash

We don't own credit cards as I am ashamed to say we ran up huge debts that took a long while to fix

But we done it mainly because we had the safety net of the tax credits to help ensure there was food on the cupboard and gas , water elec

It drives me to madness when I see the scroungers come summer In the parks drinking chilling out with their 80 quid t shirts and 200 quid phones

Dossing it off , the same people I see in the post office / shop collecting their giro whilst I am in there getting my fags and paper on way to work

I listen to Nathan going to game after game

I hear them in the super markets on the tax free loan they got of over 500 quid to help them get through Xmas and watch them fill the trolley with booze and fags to last them

Whilst I have saved all my reward points from filling up my (work car part of my job) and the wifes all year and my work social club 50 quid voucher

To pay for my booze and fags for Xmas plus add money to it

This month totally skint because I don't let the kids feel the pinch it's not their fault

I am sorry if I don't hold any concern to those not working and not getting a great rise in benefit

I worked hard this year really hard and due to the business I am in not hitting its shareholder value, I may have to go back to a role I hate and not get a rise for years because I am above the pay bracket

Every one must contribute e ery one must feel the burn

Everyone contributed to the mess now we all must pay


Darren

AFKABartram

Fortune,

Genuine question. In your real world analogy, is it right that those on benefits see annual increases when those in the working world don't ?

I'm on a pay freeze, have not had a pay increase in four years, as are many many others. In that time every bill other than mortgage has gone through the roof.

So should those on benefits see cost of living inflationary increases while many in the working world are having their cost of living reduced ?

IdleHans

Not everyone contributed to the mess - most people were just getting on with their daily lives and the banking crisis that lies at the root of the whole mess (with a helping hand of appalling financial management from the government) was so far removed from the ordinary wage slave that the population at large can't be blamed for the disaster we're now in.
But I agree we'll all have to pay for it...

LenGlover

IdleHans said:

Not everyone contributed to the mess - most people were just getting on with their daily lives and the banking crisis that lies at the root of the whole mess (with a helping hand of appalling financial management from the government) was so far removed from the ordinary wage slave that the population at large can't be blamed for the disaster we're now in.
But I agree we'll all have to pay for it...

The LibLabCon believe in "privatising" profits and "publicising" losses.

nth_london_addick

I would say pal that like me and the honesty I have said about how I contributed to the mess by spending money I was entitled to via the tax credit system on things that were not essential and the fact I was happy to run up debt via the buy now pay later culture did not help and thus contributed to the mess

GretnaGreenAddick

It is not right that for some aspects of society who could work if forced to or given the chance, continue to claim benefits but it is the sad fact that when everyone's is in trouble people start to punch down at the weaker members of society for someone to blame.

Don't want this to be to political as let's be honest Labour and the Lib Dems are as corrupt as the Tories, im just not sure any form of modern democracy can produce politicians that actually try to do what is best for the people.

Shrew

this is effecting masses of low waged hard working people, the government wants to divide us and put us into boxes of the hard working masses and the scroungers in reality no such divide exists. Many people are being paid for doing sweet fa and many people on benefits are working hard in the voluntary sector also there are many people who are working on low pay who cannot live without some help from family tax credit, we are all in this together.

Addickted

As from April this year there will be a benefit cap of £500 per week for a family.

That's £26k PA - tax free, or the equivalent of someone at work earning approx £32k. I work with plenty of people who earn less than that and won't be getting a 1% rise. And they have to pay a fortune just for the privelege of getting to work.

gilbertfilbert

@Shrew

Top post. We're all in this together, but Gideon and his mates in the boardrooms and the tax havens are certainly not in it with us.

nth_london_addick

IMO we are all to blame , people that make no effort to contribute to society via the tax system due to being none idle chancers more than most But there is very little difference to me taking the tax credit when inproberly could've done without it

To those who could work and don't and take their money via the benefit system

It's a harsh bit fair truth IMO

Shrew

Addickted said:

As from April this year there will be a benefit cap of £500 per week for a family.

That's £26k PA - tax free, or the equivalent of someone at work earning approx £32k. I work with plenty of people who earn less than that and won't be getting a 1% rise. And they have to pay a fortune just for the privelege of getting to work.

But the government wants people to look at the extremes, to make people feel bitter so they have support to go ahead with cuts which affect a wide cross section of mainly hard working people

Huskaris

I wouldn't mind a pay rise too :-)

nth_london_addick

If they just came out and said it how it was it would t make it any easier but it might make people accept it

moutuakilla

i'm on minimum wage and pretty much always have been, this is recognised as not being a living wage. I'm not too sure where i stand on this as i have never been in the position where i have needed benefits myself as i refused to get job seekers allowance whilst i was out of work - however this was because i had saved enough just incase of this event. I imagine if i was in the position where if needed job seekers allowance etc. i would find it pretty hard to cope and with the increasing cost of things. I don't think non workers should earn more than workers, but i like the fact that there is a benefit system in this country the support those that cannot work for whatever reason. If there weren't people cheating the system and refusing the work, then there probably wouldn't be the need for this cap. How on earth do you stop people from cheating the system though? i for one would not like to be tasked with that, people will always find an easy route. There's this new thing called communism though...

cafcvfr

Why don't we try to drag wages up rather than dragging support for the most vulnerable in society down?

nth_london_addick

Because a vast amount of wages are paid by private enterprise and the need to meet share holder value means it would be very difficult to sell in

IdleHans

nth london addick said:

I would say pal that like me and the honesty I have said about how I contributed to the mess by spending money I was entitled to via the tax credit system on things that were not essential and the fact I was happy to run up debt via the buy now pay later culture did not help and thus contributed to the mess

I apprecate your honesty, and you're right. And far from alone in that, which is why I have always had a huge problem with the tax credit mechanism, which is easily abused and in large measure tax is taken off you and then given back. Surely it's much more sensible simply to let people keep more of what they earn (ALL of it below whatever minimum wage @ 40 hours a week amounts to).

I think also the corporate tax situation is a bigger source of potential income. For all the handwringing about Starbucks/Google/Amazon (and I've worked for many companies who have transferred their IP offshore to the Caymans/Cyprus/Luxemburg to avoid paying UK tax - it's easy and it's cheap and it's legal, so why wouldn't you?) surely the simplest mechanism to correct that tax avoidance is a turnover tax of say 1-2% on UK sales, which can be offset against the normal UK tax liability (if any).
I have given this a fair bit of thought, and cant see an obvious downside. Companies cant relocate their UK sales, only their UK profits, so it becomes much more difficult to avoid.

Off_it

IdleHans said:

nth london addick said:

I would say pal that like me and the honesty I have said about how I contributed to the mess by spending money I was entitled to via the tax credit system on things that were not essential and the fact I was happy to run up debt via the buy now pay later culture did not help and thus contributed to the mess

I apprecate your honesty, and you're right. And far from alone in that, which is why I have always had a huge problem with the tax credit mechanism, which is easily abused and in large measure tax is taken off you and then given back. Surely it's much more sensible simply to let people keep more of what they earn (ALL of it below whatever minimum wage @ 40 hours a week amounts to).

I think also the corporate tax situation is a bigger source of potential income. For all the handwringing about Starbucks/Google/Amazon (and I've worked for many companies who have transferred their IP offshore to the Caymans/Cyprus/Luxemburg to avoid paying UK tax - it's easy and it's cheap and it's legal, so why wouldn't you?) surely the simplest mechanism to correct that tax avoidance is a turnover tax of say 1-2% on UK sales, which can be offset against the normal UK tax liability (if any).
I have given this a fair bit of thought, and cant see an obvious downside. Companies cant relocate their UK sales, only their UK profits, so it becomes much more difficult to avoid.

A turnover tax? What, like VAT you mean? I think that the last thing we need is another tax to add yet another layer of complexity.

IdleHans

No, a corporate tax, payable at the end of the financial year by the company (not passed on to the consumer, at least not directly) to be offset against the normal UK CT liability, if any, to guarantee that the government gets a contribution from significant businessses who might otherwise avoid all tax by artificially reducing their profits.

gilbertfilbert

I think a turnover tax would be a different thing to VAT. These companies will have to be forced to give up their parasitic habits somehow.

Addickted

Just to balance things out - benefits increased by 5.2% last year.

Anyone else get a similar cost of living rise?

soapy_jones

Well done CL. A balanced and measured thread. We can do it, most interesting.