Can someone, please, in one or two sentences let us know the latest on "New Investors" ? Thanks.
Looked at books. Didn't like what they saw and heard so headed back to Turkey. Swede no longer on the scene Jimenez no longer on my Christmas card list
Can someone, please, in one or two sentences let us know the latest on "New Investors" ? Thanks.
Looked at books. Didn't like what they saw and heard so headed back to Turkey. Swede no longer on the scene Jimenez no longer on my Christmas card list
No ITK, no absolute facts just a summary of the rumours bouncing around here, other sites, text messages etc
Don't shoot the messanger. Some people asked, I replied.
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There was serious interest from Koc holdings and some representatives came to a game.
There were said to be other interested parties including the Swedish owner of H&M
Initially the word was that the Koc deal was done but this quickly turned out to be false.
The South London Press ran a small story on the Koc rumours and was banned by the Club.
The story then became that Koc would buy in March or if we were challenging etc,etc. This was still believed by some despite the version of events changing almost weekly. IMHO this was all bluster and bluff to hide the fact that Koc had pulled out.
No clear evidence is available as to why Koc withdrew (or if they had or if they had ever been seriously in) but some sources suggested irregularities were found when the books were examined.
TJ was said to be unhappy with SCP after the poor results and losing Koc and so had sacked him, partially blaming SCP for Koc pulling out. This was denied by others close to board very quickly. These sources poured cold water on the idea that SCP was going or that his dismissal had even been discussed.
Other sources suggested that TJ continues to borrow money to cover monthly loses. The lenders of this money are unknown but are very much lenders looking for a repayment+profit not investors in CAFC.
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There you go. None of this is LOCKED ON FACT imho. Some sources I believe to be very reliable and others not. But even reliable sources can be wrong or can be fed misinformation (as I think is the case with source most quoted by ROV on Into the Valley and could well be with others)
And before you say it I'm not doom mongering or shit stirring. These are the stories doing to rounds retold in many cases in far less emotive lanaguage than used originally. As I understand it a few lifers who were very much in the "its all nonsense, there are no problems" camp in the summer have changed their views based on new information received. Nothing wrong in that.
As AFKA has said, it's TJ's personal financial situation that is the worry. There is only so long that anybody can keep borrowing to fund ongoing losses & I assume that TJ was expecting the new investors to solve this problem. As it appears there are no new investors (yet) don't be surprised to see some players being sold in January and the cash being used to pay off creditors rather than being re-invested back in the team. But, at the end of the day, who really knows?
Thanks Sir Henry. So where's the money actually coming from? Presumably we're high risk so can't see the banks coughing up, so looking elsewhere means short term high interest loans . So, is it possible that TJ thought the KOC deal was in the bag and borrowed on the strength of new money coming in thinking that he would be able to pay it back quickly? Someone please tell me that this is a totally ludicrous notion, please nicely.
The only positive you can take out of that (and to be perfectly honest its very positive at all) is that at least he has the links to bring people like KOC to the table, the real problem is converting that into investment !! My major concern is that we end of selling up to another dubious set up - I think at this stage I'm not convinced in the slightest that the long term interests of CAFC figure highly amounst TJ's exit plans or come to mention it MS.
it only matters if he is the OWNER of CAFC. is he ? if he has borrowed the money what has he put up as capital it cant be the club as he dosnt own it in total-------he could have put his own or his backers capital up.
Or it could all be codswallop/bollox but i think we will know soon. If we sell Solly etc and get loan players in then it has to be kosher.
it could also be a ploy by slater and co to freeze out TJ. Think about it for a minute, TJ cannot fund cafc out of his own money for long and this could force him to sell to other people cheaply. Who knows whats going on and to be fair their is nothing any of us can do about it except speculate. All can do now is sit back and watch the latest episode of the cafc soap opera unravel
I don't know whether the Koc and/or Swede rumours ever had any serious foundation and it may well be that the latest noises about them withdrawing are simply a way out for those who started the rumours in the first place. What seems clear to me is that the need for new investment (assuming that Cash has taken his ball away) remains and that TJ will be seeking financial input. If not Koc and/or the Swede then there will be other potential suitors. Don't know when, don't know who. January transfer dealings (or lack of) will tell us how acute the current situation is.
cooking the books , no way .... creative accounting , no way
What the current lot or those who sold to the current lot?
Heard rumours in the summer that the current lot were misled and club was oversold to them. Not saying there is any fact or even an ounce of truth in that or that I believe it but would put a different perspective on things if TJ, MS and co were misold the club in the first place.
Didn't someone on here earlier post that their due diligence wasn't substantial.
cooking the books , no way .... creative accounting , no way
What the current lot or those who sold to the current lot?
Heard rumours in the summer that the current lot were misled and club was oversold to them. Not saying there is any fact or even an ounce of truth in that or that I believe it but would put a different perspective on things if TJ, MS and co were misold the club in the first place.
Didn't someone on here earlier post that their due diligence wasn't substantial.
If this were true, then relations between Slater/Jiminez and Murray would be at freezing point, since they would blame him. But no one has ever heard that, while there are plenty of rumors that Slater and Jiminez fell out with each other.
If you don't do proper due diligence it is no use crying that you were misled....
January will be interesting. Will we sell our best players leading to a real problem sustaining Champ football and evidence of financial woe. Will we stay as we are, not really shedding any light or will we buy a couple and keep our existing players and find out the KOC out rumours were just a ploy to stop greedy agents (who I can assure you already knew about the Turks interest!)
No ITK, no absolute facts just a summary of the rumours bouncing around here, other sites, text messages etc
Don't shoot the messanger. Some people asked, I replied.
-------------
There was serious interest from Koc holdings and some representatives came to a game.
There were said to be other interested parties including the Swedish owner of H&M
Initially the word was that the Koc deal was done but this quickly turned out to be false.
The South London Press ran a small story on the Koc rumours and was banned by the Club.
The story then became that Koc would buy in March or if we were challenging etc,etc. This was still believed by some despite the version of events changing almost weekly. IMHO this was all bluster and bluff to hide the fact that Koc had pulled out.
No clear evidence is available as to why Koc withdrew (or if they had or if they had ever been seriously in) but some sources suggested irregularities were found when the books were examined.
TJ was said to be unhappy with SCP after the poor results and losing Koc and so had sacked him, partially blaming SCP for Koc pulling out. This was denied by others close to board very quickly. These sources poured cold water on the idea that SCP was going or that his dismissal had even been discussed.
Other sources suggested that TJ continues to borrow money to cover monthly loses. The lenders of this money are unknown but are very much lenders looking for a repayment+profit not investors in CAFC.
------------------------------------
There you go. None of this is LOCKED ON FACT imho. Some sources I believe to be very reliable and others not. But even reliable sources can be wrong or can be fed misinformation (as I think is the case with source most quoted by ROV on Into the Valley and could well be with others)
And before you say it I'm not doom mongering or shit stirring. These are the stories doing to rounds retold in many cases in far less emotive lanaguage than used originally. As I understand it a few lifers who were very much in the "its all nonsense, there are no problems" camp in the summer have changed their views based on new information received. Nothing wrong in that.
Interesting and instructive post.
A few comments – all based on inference not fact.
The rumoured takeover
I’m not terribly surprised that this has fallen through – if indeed that’s the case. There were and will remain three important issues to resolve before any deal can be consummated. These are;
Price – The Club is very hard to value. In reality ownership represents the combination of a significant liability, i.e. funding costs of circa £10m p.a., or more potentially, along with an option which is obviously worth a lot if, but only if, the Club is promoted to the Premier League. If you are an optimistic owner you might think the option “dominates” the liability. If you were a buyer your valuation might be close to zero. All other things being equal you need a desperate seller or a gullible buyer for a deal to complete.
Control – A key issue. Who decides on the annual operating plan, transfer outlays etc? There has to be a dominant partner, but whom? Who is going to commit serious money without control?
Trust – Is critical in any partnership. The murkiness of the offshore vehicle that owns the Football Club along with evidence of late payment of bills would not have inspired confidence.
It’s likely that any serious investor would want to acquire the entirety of the CAFCH holding in Baton and wave goodbye to Jimenez, Cash et al, but they may not have been up for that, especially at the price on offer. Just speculation, but not unreasonable.
What happens next?
There really is no easy way out for Jimenez, Cash et al. If they want their money back, let alone to make a profit, they need to keep funding ongoing losses and hope for promotion or sell. There is no walk-away option. Administration doesn’t help them. Only Jimenez knows how tenuous the funding model is. An optimistic interpretation is that this season is covered with recent discussions about new investment designed either to accelerate a promotion push, but only on his terms, or to convince Cash that there are buyers around if needed. The alternative scenario is that he needs to sell and has messed up. If so, he’ll need to lower his price and keep looking. In the meantime, he’ll be desperate to avoid relegation. Let’s wish him luck!!
The key issues
I’d say there are two.
First, are there potential buyers out there or not? If Jimenez and/or Cash can’t sustain the current level of funding he’ll/they’ll eventually have to swallow his/their pride and sell. A nothing up front, £Xm on promotion to the Premier League deal might, ultimately, be the best they can get. Critically though, this would still be a better outcome for both TJ and the Club than simply walking away. There is some comfort in this – provided there are buyers.
Second, can we avoid relegation this season? If not, buyers would be much thinner on the ground and the outlook much worse. This would be my biggest concern, especially so having studied our home form and the away fixture list.
Very good post MF? I think that there is one element not allowed for in your very considered post. The Valley. The team and our future be it Premier league or Div One is as you say hard to value but the The Valley would I assume be much easier to put a price on should it ever be separate from the requirements of the football club.
January will be interesting. Will we sell our best players leading to a real problem sustaining Champ football and evidence of financial woe. Will we stay as we are, not really shedding any light or will we buy a couple and keep our existing players and find out the KOC out rumours were just a ploy to stop greedy agents (who I can assure you already knew about the Turks interest!)
As in current players agents or possible new player agents ?
There really is no easy way out for Jimenez, Cash et al. If they want their money back, let alone to make a profit, they need to keep funding ongoing losses and hope for promotion or sell. There is no walk-away option. Administration doesn’t help them. Only Jimenez knows how tenuous the funding model is. An optimistic interpretation is that this season is covered with recent discussions about new investment designed either to accelerate a promotion push, but only on his terms, or to convince Cash that there are buyers around if needed. The alternative scenario is that he needs to sell and has messed up. If so, he’ll need to lower his price and keep looking. In the meantime, he’ll be desperate to avoid relegation. Let’s wish him luck! ---------------------------------
This, combined with Henry's post make for very enlightening reading. TJ is rumoured to be spitting blood and thus the above 'alternative scenario' IMO, becomes the more credible and would suggest that TJ is well and truly hoist. If he sells key players to free up some money then the threat of relegation increases. If he chucks out CP, he will need money that he hasn't got to fund it and he also risks making things a whole lot worse by succeeding in alienating both supporters and the squad.
If you were a potential investor what would you do? Trust in TJ & co. or quietly sit on the sidelines until they are forced to sell at reduced rates?
Very good post MF? I think that there is one element not allowed for in your very considered post. The Valley. The team and our future be it Premier league or Div One is as you say hard to value but the The Valley would I assume be much easier to put a price on should it ever be separate from the requirements of the football club.
However, the bank has first charge over The Valley and, while I'm not clear on this, presumably the former directors have second charge. So its value to the regime is limited.
Another tour de force, Mr Fleming, which makes uncomfortable reading. The only comfort I can take from it, is that there are surely several other clubs in the same boat in this league, particularly, as another CL'er pointed out last night in the pub, the relegated teams, who are all down there with us in the league, and have huge wage bills eating up their parachute money.
January will be interesting. Will we sell our best players leading to a real problem sustaining Champ football and evidence of financial woe. Will we stay as we are, not really shedding any light or will we buy a couple and keep our existing players and find out the KOC out rumours were just a ploy to stop greedy agents (who I can assure you already knew about the Turks interest!)
As in current players agents or possible new player agents ?
Current players. Although I assume that the Agents world is a small one so if current players agents know i am sure others will too.
Comments
Swede no longer on the scene
Jimenez no longer on my Christmas card list
No ITK, no absolute facts just a summary of the rumours bouncing around here, other sites, text messages etc
Don't shoot the messanger. Some people asked, I replied.
-------------
There was serious interest from Koc holdings and some representatives came to a game.
There were said to be other interested parties including the Swedish owner of H&M
Initially the word was that the Koc deal was done but this quickly turned out to be false.
The South London Press ran a small story on the Koc rumours and was banned by the Club.
The story then became that Koc would buy in March or if we were challenging etc,etc. This was still believed by some despite the version of events changing almost weekly. IMHO this was all bluster and bluff to hide the fact that Koc had pulled out.
No clear evidence is available as to why Koc withdrew (or if they had or if they had ever been seriously in) but some sources suggested irregularities were found when the books were examined.
TJ was said to be unhappy with SCP after the poor results and losing Koc and so had sacked him, partially blaming SCP for Koc pulling out. This was denied by others close to board very quickly. These sources poured cold water on the idea that SCP was going or that his dismissal had even been discussed.
Other sources suggested that TJ continues to borrow money to cover monthly loses. The lenders of this money are unknown but are very much lenders looking for a repayment+profit not investors in CAFC.
------------------------------------
There you go. None of this is LOCKED ON FACT imho. Some sources I believe to be very reliable and others not. But even reliable sources can be wrong or can be fed misinformation (as I think is the case with source most quoted by ROV on Into the Valley and could well be with others)
And before you say it I'm not doom mongering or shit stirring. These are the stories doing to rounds retold in many cases in far less emotive lanaguage than used originally. As I understand it a few lifers who were very much in the "its all nonsense, there are no problems" camp in the summer have changed their views based on new information received. Nothing wrong in that.
Or it could all be codswallop/bollox but i think we will know soon. If we sell Solly etc and get loan players in then it has to be kosher.
Is this really the kind of things we should be reading on a family forum?
The big unknown in this whole saga is why did Kevin Cash stop funding the Club?
Everything was going great till March when he stopped his funding.
He's still involved as his frontman Slater is still here but all the uncertainty comes from Cash's withdrawl.
What can we do? Three things.
1 Keep getting behind SCP and the team
2 Keep asking questions
3 Join the supporters' trust
What can we do? Three things.
1 Keep getting behind SCP and the team
2 Keep asking questions
3 Join the supporters' trust
Thank You (Sir) Henry.
Will do my best.
Heard rumours in the summer that the current lot were misled and club was oversold to them. Not saying there is any fact or even an ounce of truth in that or that I believe it but would put a different perspective on things if TJ, MS and co were misold the club in the first place.
Didn't someone on here earlier post that their due diligence wasn't substantial.
If you don't do proper due diligence it is no use crying that you were misled....
A few comments – all based on inference not fact.
The rumoured takeover
I’m not terribly surprised that this has fallen through – if indeed that’s the case. There were and will remain three important issues to resolve before any deal can be consummated. These are;
Price – The Club is very hard to value. In reality ownership represents the combination of a significant liability, i.e. funding costs of circa £10m p.a., or more potentially, along with an option which is obviously worth a lot if, but only if, the Club is promoted to the Premier League. If you are an optimistic owner you might think the option “dominates” the liability. If you were a buyer your valuation might be close to zero. All other things being equal you need a desperate seller or a gullible buyer for a deal to complete.
Control – A key issue. Who decides on the annual operating plan, transfer outlays etc? There has to be a dominant partner, but whom? Who is going to commit serious money without control?
Trust – Is critical in any partnership. The murkiness of the offshore vehicle that owns the Football Club along with evidence of late payment of bills would not have inspired confidence.
It’s likely that any serious investor would want to acquire the entirety of the CAFCH holding in Baton and wave goodbye to Jimenez, Cash et al, but they may not have been up for that, especially at the price on offer. Just speculation, but not unreasonable.
What happens next?
There really is no easy way out for Jimenez, Cash et al. If they want their money back, let alone to make a profit, they need to keep funding ongoing losses and hope for promotion or sell. There is no walk-away option. Administration doesn’t help them. Only Jimenez knows how tenuous the funding model is. An optimistic interpretation is that this season is covered with recent discussions about new investment designed either to accelerate a promotion push, but only on his terms, or to convince Cash that there are buyers around if needed. The alternative scenario is that he needs to sell and has messed up. If so, he’ll need to lower his price and keep looking. In the meantime, he’ll be desperate to avoid relegation. Let’s wish him luck!!
The key issues
I’d say there are two.
First, are there potential buyers out there or not? If Jimenez and/or Cash can’t sustain the current level of funding he’ll/they’ll eventually have to swallow his/their pride and sell. A nothing up front, £Xm on promotion to the Premier League deal might, ultimately, be the best they can get. Critically though, this would still be a better outcome for both TJ and the Club than simply walking away. There is some comfort in this – provided there are buyers.
Second, can we avoid relegation this season? If not, buyers would be much thinner on the ground and the outlook much worse. This would be my biggest concern, especially so having studied our home form and the away fixture list.
'What happens next?
There really is no easy way out for Jimenez, Cash et al. If they want their money back, let alone to make a profit, they need to keep funding ongoing losses and hope for promotion or sell. There is no walk-away option. Administration doesn’t help them. Only Jimenez knows how tenuous the funding model is. An optimistic interpretation is that this season is covered with recent discussions about new investment designed either to accelerate a promotion push, but only on his terms, or to convince Cash that there are buyers around if needed. The alternative scenario is that he needs to sell and has messed up. If so, he’ll need to lower his price and keep looking. In the meantime, he’ll be desperate to avoid relegation. Let’s wish him luck!
---------------------------------
This, combined with Henry's post make for very enlightening reading. TJ is rumoured to be spitting blood and thus the above 'alternative scenario' IMO, becomes the more credible and would suggest that TJ is well and truly hoist. If he sells key players to free up some money then the threat of relegation increases. If he chucks out CP, he will need money that he hasn't got to fund it and he also risks making things a whole lot worse by succeeding in alienating both supporters and the squad.
If you were a potential investor what would you do? Trust in TJ & co. or quietly sit on the sidelines until they are forced to sell at reduced rates?