This is why we can't get to host the World Cup and why we will never win Eurovision again.
Nobody likes us and we don't care (much).
I think this is a extemely untrue comment. We can't be compared to the states. Infact personal experience would dictate that everyone seems to love us. *edit*. (at least when we ain't drunkenly throwing sun loungers over pools*
It makes me feel immensely proud that, in a time when half the world were "at it", we were the best "at it".
I'm on me blower atm, but if I was at me PC right now I'd have to attach a clip of the band of The Royal Marines playing Jerusalem and have a blaaaady good sing along!
It makes you feel "immensely proud" ?
It's an interesting fact but it doesn't fill me with pride in the slightest, and I don't think that others were "at it" too is a good enough to explain away the misery the empire and it's many associated atrocities caused.
Bore off ffs
I would argue, Big Rob, that if a tiny island the other side of the world kept invading countries which included yours, and there was a bloke with a massive gun patrolling outside your house, and someone told you to 'bore off' after making a point about it - you'd probably be a bit pis*ed off...?
Big "what if" there Neil.
My point is that if we were doing it now ie invading and conquering it would be different, but it was done in a time where anyone with the ability to do it, done it! Invade or be invaded!
I assume you're kidding? Actually I know you're not. So Afghanistan and Iraq aren't happening?
That 'what if' has been the reality for real people time and again in countless countries, and is the current reality for Afghans and Iraqis right now. That was the point I was making - that you wouldn't enjoy it one bit of you were on the receiving end - but generally people with your views seem incapable of putting yourself in others' shoes. Not a dig at you, just a dig at the whole train of thought...
Iraq and Afghanistan are completely different, what we are doing in those countries is helping the general population break off from some evil dictators, without our history we would have no Queen which means the summer that just past with the Royal family would not have happened.
What we are doing in Iran ad Afghanistan had nothing to do with getting rid of dictators. Blair simply backed up Bush, who was blindly retaliating for 9/11 and trying to finish daddy's business
I don't care if you feel ashamed by it, because what's done is done and you cannot turn back 400 odd years. It set us up as an economic powerhouse, a world leader and ultimately built the country we all live in. Think of what we would have gone through if it wasn't for the empire we built?
Dieses Forum würde in Deutscher sprache, für den anfang!
From an historical perspective, it is arguable that countries ruled by colonial Britain fared somewhat better and progressed substantially faster than those which were not. Many of those now independent have struggled on their own. Not saying it was right, but we were probably best described as somewhat incompetent, self-serving rulers - much preferable to some of the brutal regimes which had their own colonies.
I agree with a lot of this, it was largely considered a benign empire mainly held together by trade agreements and not invasion, it was also normally self-policing with only 50,000 British troups spread across the whole of the empire. It is interesting that virtually all former countries of the empire continue the link via the comonwealth voluntarily. Also most of our ancestors did not benfit from the empire whilst they were up chimneys, in the mills and the on the farms. As someone of working-class stock I have nothing to feel gulty for even if the middle-class left-wing student bores of today think I should.
It's not about feeling guilty, but it's 100% about not seeking out a warped pride like some do.
I can understand some of these arguments, but there are just too many incidences of the British being responsible for the deaths of countless people to call it 'benign'. From causing incomprehensible famines in India to brutal killing campaigns in Kenya, simple historical fact - not necessarily just 'lefty', '6th form politics' or whatever people want to call it - shows British foreign policy has been anything but benign.
"Iraq and Afghanistan are completely different, what we are doing in those countries is helping the general population break off from some evil dictators, without our history we would have no Queen which means the summer that just past with the Royal family would not have happened."
It's not really that different though. Speak to anyone far more qualified than me to talk about British policy in the Middle East and they'd argue it's about geopolitical power and oil, not about removing evil dictators. If it was about that, why would we have given Sadam Hussain millions in economic support and trade credits when he was systematically gassing the Kurds? Why would we have consistently funded and supported violent warlords in Afghanistan? Why would we continually support dictators like Muburak in Egypt, and the ruling families of Bahrain, Saudi Arabia and others? Why would we forcibly remove and imprison the democratic, peaceful leader of Iran in the 1950s to help install an evil dictatorship there?
Just so many historical events show evil dictators are not, and never have been our concern. Economic exploitation and wanting far-reaching influence is what dictated both the empire, and modern day invasions.
And also we shouldn't need a symbol of our rather embarrassing imperial past to have some nice street parties during the summer.
It makes me feel immensely proud that, in a time when half the world were "at it", we were the best "at it".
I'm on me blower atm, but if I was at me PC right now I'd have to attach a clip of the band of The Royal Marines playing Jerusalem and have a blaaaady good sing along!
It makes you feel "immensely proud" ?
It's an interesting fact but it doesn't fill me with pride in the slightest, and I don't think that others were "at it" too is a good enough to explain away the misery the empire and it's many associated atrocities caused.
Bore off ffs
I would argue, Big Rob, that if a tiny island the other side of the world kept invading countries which included yours, and there was a bloke with a massive gun patrolling outside your house, and someone told you to 'bore off' after making a point about it - you'd probably be a bit pis*ed off...?
Big "what if" there Neil.
My point is that if we were doing it now ie invading and conquering it would be different, but it was done in a time where anyone with the ability to do it, done it! Invade or be invaded!
I assume you're kidding? Actually I know you're not. So Afghanistan and Iraq aren't happening?
That 'what if' has been the reality for real people time and again in countless countries, and is the current reality for Afghans and Iraqis right now. That was the point I was making - that you wouldn't enjoy it one bit of you were on the receiving end - but generally people with your views seem incapable of putting yourself in others' shoes. Not a dig at you, just a dig at the whole train of thought...
Iraq and Afghanistan are completely different, what we are doing in those countries is helping the general population break off from some evil dictators, without our history we would have no Queen which means the summer that just past with the Royal family would not have happened.
When did I say that I agree with our troops being anywhere near either Iraq or Afghan? Two wars that are being waged for very different reasons. We were talking about the British Empire.....
Yeah why should invading other people's lands with at best an arrogant disregard for their way of life, and at worst a willingness to oppress and kill, all for the economic benefits of a small elite at home be a cause of shame? How ridiculous. Rule Brittania!
Do you have an up to date British passport ?
I don't know what you mean by this.
Assuming you have the miserable pleasure of living in the UK and hate the way The British acted over the years then you should distance yourself from it all.
What a ridiculous comment.
Oh you are so right SE9, I bow to your opinion and retract the comment.
I'm really really sorry for what I said Neil - but seriously if it is so crap being tainted with being British then please do leave.
I'm proud of the british empire because, being just a small island of the coast of continental europe we managed to take over virtually the entire globe. I'm also proud of it because we were the first major power to outlaw the trading of people as slaves. Being ashamed of a huge part of our history is flimsy apologist nonsense. Don't think you'll find one country that hasnt committed atrocities or done bad things in its history and i think you'll find most people in their countries are proud of their history. It's part of what being british is, being ashamed of it is being ashamed of who you, your friends and your family are.
Yeah why should invading other people's lands with at best an arrogant disregard for their way of life, and at worst a willingness to oppress and kill, all for the economic benefits of a small elite at home be a cause of shame? How ridiculous. Rule Brittania!
Do you have an up to date British passport ?
I don't know what you mean by this.
Assuming you have the miserable pleasure of living in the UK and hate the way The British acted over the years then you should distance yourself from it all.
What a ridiculous comment.
Oh you are so right SE9, I bow to your opinion and retract the comment.
I'm really really sorry for what I said Neil - but seriously if it is so crap being tainted with being British then please do leave.
Anyone got a spare bed overseas ?
But the fella didn't say he wasn't proud to be British. it's possible to be a proud Brit (which I am) and still be critical of some of the mayhem and destruction which the empire caused.
Infact one of the real reasons to be proud to be British is our belief in tolerance and freedom of speech - but you don't seem to agree with this since you demand that anyone with a differing point of view to you hand back their passport and move overseas.
"Iraq and Afghanistan are completely different, what we are doing in those countries is helping the general population break off from some evil dictators, without our history we would have no Queen which means the summer that just past with the Royal family would not have happened."
It's not really that different though. Speak to anyone far more qualified than me to talk about British policy in the Middle East and they'd argue it's about geopolitical power and oil, not about removing evil dictators. If it was about that, why would we have given Sadam Hussain millions in economic support and trade credits when he was systematically gassing the Kurds? Why would we have consistently funded and supported violent warlords in Afghanistan? Why would we continually support dictators like Muburak in Egypt, and the ruling families of Bahrain, Saudi Arabia and others? Why would we forcibly remove and imprison the democratic, peaceful leader of Iran in the 1950s to help install an evil dictatorship there?
Just so many historical events show evil dictators are not, and never have been our concern. Economic exploitation and wanting far-reaching influence is what dictated both the empire, and modern day invasions.
And also we shouldn't need a symbol of our rather embarrassing imperial past to have some nice street parties during the summer.
This thread could and probably will go on for years, I am proud we accomplished so much as a tiny island. It shows what strength power and courage it took to take countries over, we have so much influence in this world it is unbelievable because of the size of are tiny little country. When this country starts to lose it's identity which will happen one day it will be sad to look back and think what all those people spilled blood over was worthless. With the Middle East if you read up about it the reasons we went to war was 1) 9/11 2) Hussain tried to get other countries which produced Oil to fix the price so they could charge a higher price to the west, some countries agreed but certain ones didn't. Western Europe felt un easy about this as it would put greater power into the hands of the extremist east and the best way to fight this is to show your strength.
But the point is if we didn't have that "embarrassing past" we would have no Royal Family so we wouldn't have street parties celebrating. The Royal family bring in so many tourist each year from other countries we would lose all that income in this day and age but i suppose we still have the glorious Margate beach for the Asians to visit. Spain once had a massive chunk of the world I wonder if they are "embarrassed by it?" probably not.
I'm proud of the british empire because, being just a small island of the coast of continental europe we managed to take over virtually the entire globe. I'm also proud of it because we were the first major power to outlaw the trading of people as slaves. Being ashamed of a huge part of our history is flimsy apologist nonsense. Don't think you'll find one country that hasnt committed atrocities or done bad things in its history and i think you'll find most people in their countries are proud of their history. It's part of what being british is, being ashamed of it is being ashamed of who you, your friends and your family are.
Though alot of what the British Empire achieved was mainly driven by selfish gains there has been alot of good not just for our country but for others as well. If we didn’t go to the new world and populate it someone else would have done. We helped with infrastructure, used our inventions to help people across the world, provided vastly superior health care but at the same time we pillaged certain countries and killed/in slaved innocent people. What did the Romans ever do for us kind of situation.
What people nowadays seem to forget is that it was a dog eat dog kind of world. We were in competition with some fierce European rivals to conquer that world. However finally we grew up past the mentality of our rivals and our government went against the slave trade before any other. We give to charity far more than any other country. We started to fight for good causes and though we bungled around, it was mainly with good intentions. As such a huge political power we tried to influence other countries to do what we thought was the right thing. Yes we got involved more than we should and we probably still do.
Invention, art, health care, culture, mentality, we have provided so much and we have gained as much from the countries we have explored. We have become a well-rounded country who no longer needs an empire, who boasts a mix of cultures that no other country could come close to boasting. The decedents of the proud people who were part of the empire are some of the most open minded. With free speech being a key part of this. Yeah our country is pretty screwed right now and has been for a long time in certain areas, but you can’t be shameful of a history that has made us into what we are. We look back at it and its full of regrets but also full of inspirational moments. Now to look forward. No doubt it will be full of mistakes because we are only human. We do let ourselves down but that is mainly due to the capitalist way of life that we are part of and the greed that has driven us in the past to make an Empire unfortunately can still rear its ugly head. As long as we try to do the right thing, (though sometimes it can be hard to know what the right thing is) in our own lives and a nation as a whole, we can be proud.
Agree with most of that other than populating north america. I think the people who already lived there would see it differently (even if it wasn't us it would have been the French or Spanish or Dutch.)
And there's the rub. I'm proud of our history but not blindly. We did a lot of good, some bad and some inbetween.
And we see it from our perspective not that of the other countries we were involved in.
Though alot of what the British Empire achieved was mainly driven by selfish gains there has been alot of good not just for our country but for others as well. If we didn’t go to the new world and populate it someone else would have done. We helped with infrastructure, used our inventions to help people across the world, provided vastly superior health care but at the same time we pillaged certain countries and killed/in slaved innocent people. What did the Romans ever do for us kind of situation.
What people nowadays seem to forget is that it was a dog eat dog kind of world. We were in competition with some fierce European rivals to conquer that world. However finally we grew up past the mentality of our rivals and our government went against the slave trade before any other. We give to charity far more than any other country. We started to fight for good causes and though we bungled around, it was mainly with good intentions. As such a huge political power we tried to influence other countries to do what we thought was the right thing. Yes we got involved more than we should and we probably still do.
Invention, art, health care, culture, mentality, we have provided so much and we have gained as much from the countries we have explored. We have become a well-rounded country who no longer needs an empire, who boasts a mix of cultures that no other country could come close to boasting. The decedents of the proud people who were part of the empire are some of the most open minded. With free speech being a key part of this. Yeah our country is pretty screwed right now and has been for a long time in certain areas, but you can’t be shameful of a history that has made us into what we are. We look back at it and its full of regrets but also full of inspirational moments. Now to look forward. No doubt it will be full of mistakes because we are only human. We do let ourselves down but that is mainly due to the capitalist way of life that we are part of and the greed that has driven us in the past to make an Empire unfortunately can still rear its ugly head. As long as we try to do the right thing, (though sometimes it can be hard to know what the right thing is) in our own lives and a nation as a whole, we can be proud.
It makes me feel immensely proud that, in a time when half the world were "at it", we were the best "at it".
I'm on me blower atm, but if I was at me PC right now I'd have to attach a clip of the band of The Royal Marines playing Jerusalem and have a blaaaady good sing along!
It makes you feel "immensely proud" ?
It's an interesting fact but it doesn't fill me with pride in the slightest, and I don't think that others were "at it" too is a good enough to explain away the misery the empire and it's many associated atrocities caused.
Bore off ffs
I would argue, Big Rob, that if a tiny island the other side of the world kept invading countries which included yours, and there was a bloke with a massive gun patrolling outside your house, and someone told you to 'bore off' after making a point about it - you'd probably be a bit pis*ed off...?
Big "what if" there Neil.
My point is that if we were doing it now ie invading and conquering it would be different, but it was done in a time where anyone with the ability to do it, done it! Invade or be invaded!
How many times were we invaded before we learnt to invade back?
This is pretty ludicrous stretching of teh word "invasion". It includes all th etimes a boatload of pirates raided a coastal town or village and such "invasions" as the disastrous attempt to support Norway against the Nazi invasion (whihc really was an invasion).
But the guy's got to sell his "history" book, I guess and how else is he going to get free advertising.
I think we should get the Romans to apologise to us for being a bit naughty to us. And the Vikings. And the Normans.
The Danes?
In the main, The Danes were the Vikings. If the UK can be sued by Kenyans for the way they were treated by the British, we should sue Denmark to get all the Danegeld back.
An invasion is an invasion no matter who did it. The Romans,Vikings, British, Normans ,Germans ,Americans or whoever. It is all the same,just different periods of history ( including todays). If one nation is proud of their history then shouldnt they all be? It one nation condones its own invasions and condemes that of another , isn't that hypocrisy? On that basis I choose to condeme all invasions:) Occupation brings blowback unfortunately. Time for peace surely.
Comments
That 'what if' has been the reality for real people time and again in countless countries, and is the current reality for Afghans and Iraqis right now. That was the point I was making - that you wouldn't enjoy it one bit of you were on the receiving end - but generally people with your views seem incapable of putting yourself in others' shoes. Not a dig at you, just a dig at the whole train of thought...
Iraq and Afghanistan are completely different, what we are doing in those countries is helping the general population break off from some evil dictators, without our history we would have no Queen which means the summer that just past with the Royal family would not have happened.
Dieses Forum würde in Deutscher sprache, für den anfang!
I can understand some of these arguments, but there are just too many incidences of the British being responsible for the deaths of countless people to call it 'benign'. From causing incomprehensible famines in India to brutal killing campaigns in Kenya, simple historical fact - not necessarily just 'lefty', '6th form politics' or whatever people want to call it - shows British foreign policy has been anything but benign.
It's not really that different though. Speak to anyone far more qualified than me to talk about British policy in the Middle East and they'd argue it's about geopolitical power and oil, not about removing evil dictators. If it was about that, why would we have given Sadam Hussain millions in economic support and trade credits when he was systematically gassing the Kurds? Why would we have consistently funded and supported violent warlords in Afghanistan? Why would we continually support dictators like Muburak in Egypt, and the ruling families of Bahrain, Saudi Arabia and others? Why would we forcibly remove and imprison the democratic, peaceful leader of Iran in the 1950s to help install an evil dictatorship there?
Just so many historical events show evil dictators are not, and never have been our concern. Economic exploitation and wanting far-reaching influence is what dictated both the empire, and modern day invasions.
And also we shouldn't need a symbol of our rather embarrassing imperial past to have some nice street parties during the summer.
When did I say that I agree with our troops being anywhere near either Iraq or Afghan? Two wars that are being waged for very different reasons. We were talking about the British Empire.....
I'm really really sorry for what I said Neil - but seriously if it is so crap being tainted with being British then please do leave.
Anyone got a spare bed overseas ?
About time we invaded France again.
Infact one of the real reasons to be proud to be British is our belief in tolerance and freedom of speech - but you don't seem to agree with this since you demand that anyone with a differing point of view to you hand back their passport and move overseas.
Just so many historical events show evil dictators are not, and never have been our concern. Economic exploitation and wanting far-reaching influence is what dictated both the empire, and modern day invasions.
And also we shouldn't need a symbol of our rather embarrassing imperial past to have some nice street parties during the summer.
This thread could and probably will go on for years, I am proud we accomplished so much as a tiny island. It shows what strength power and courage it took to take countries over, we have so much influence in this world it is unbelievable because of the size of are tiny little country. When this country starts to lose it's identity which will happen one day it will be sad to look back and think what all those people spilled blood over was worthless. With the Middle East if you read up about it the reasons we went to war was 1) 9/11 2) Hussain tried to get other countries which produced Oil to fix the price so they could charge a higher price to the west, some countries agreed but certain ones didn't. Western Europe felt un easy about this as it would put greater power into the hands of the extremist east and the best way to fight this is to show your strength.
But the point is if we didn't have that "embarrassing past" we would have no Royal Family so we wouldn't have street parties celebrating. The Royal family bring in so many tourist each year from other countries we would lose all that income in this day and age but i suppose we still have the glorious Margate beach for the Asians to visit. Spain once had a massive chunk of the world I wonder if they are "embarrassed by it?" probably not.
Though alot of what the British Empire achieved was mainly driven by selfish gains there has been alot of good not just for our country but for others as well. If we didn’t go to the new world and populate it someone else would have done. We helped with infrastructure, used our inventions to help people across the world, provided vastly superior health care but at the same time we pillaged certain countries and killed/in slaved innocent people. What did the Romans ever do for us kind of situation.
What people nowadays seem to forget is that it was a dog eat dog kind of world. We were in competition with some fierce European rivals to conquer that world. However finally we grew up past the mentality of our rivals and our government went against the slave trade before any other. We give to charity far more than any other country. We started to fight for good causes and though we bungled around, it was mainly with good intentions. As such a huge political power we tried to influence other countries to do what we thought was the right thing. Yes we got involved more than we should and we probably still do.
Invention, art, health care, culture, mentality, we have provided so much and we have gained as much from the countries we have explored. We have become a well-rounded country who no longer needs an empire, who boasts a mix of cultures that no other country could come close to boasting. The decedents of the proud people who were part of the empire are some of the most open minded. With free speech being a key part of this.
Yeah our country is pretty screwed right now and has been for a long time in certain areas, but you can’t be shameful of a history that has made us into what we are. We look back at it and its full of regrets but also full of inspirational moments. Now to look forward. No doubt it will be full of mistakes because we are only human.
We do let ourselves down but that is mainly due to the capitalist way of life that we are part of and the greed that has driven us in the past to make an Empire unfortunately can still rear its ugly head.
As long as we try to do the right thing, (though sometimes it can be hard to know what the right thing is) in our own lives and a nation as a whole, we can be proud.
bit speechy i know.
Agree with most of that other than populating north america. I think the people who already lived there would see it differently (even if it wasn't us it would have been the French or Spanish or Dutch.)
And there's the rub. I'm proud of our history but not blindly. We did a lot of good, some bad and some inbetween.
And we see it from our perspective not that of the other countries we were involved in.
Big "what if" there Neil.
My point is that if we were doing it now ie invading and conquering it would be different, but it was done in a time where anyone with the ability to do it, done it! Invade or be invaded!
How many times were we invaded before we learnt to invade back?
But the guy's got to sell his "history" book, I guess and how else is he going to get free advertising.
On that basis I choose to condeme all invasions:) Occupation brings blowback unfortunately. Time for peace surely.