Bolton In The Championship

Kap10

I have always thought that if Bolton came down they would "do a Charlton" and go into free fall, but just reading about the way they are going to take the drop, clearing a lot of players and just the sensible way they are talking, and the voluminous parachuite money, I think they will be OK next season and be a good shout to get back up.

ShootersHillGuru

Clearing out lots of players and bringing in a completely new team is madness. When has that strategy ever worked ?

Uboat

This bit made me laugh:
Manager Owen Coyle told the club website: "I was clear with Nigel [Reo-Coker]. I asked him straight away whether he wanted to be a part of what we are going to do next season.
"He was honest and up front with us, because that is the type of man that he is, and said that he wanted to exercise the clause in his contract, so we wish him well."

Yeah, that's the kind of man he is. First sign of trouble and he wants to bail out.

Lincsaddick

I agree, Bolton will be a major force next season

Addick90

especially as theyve kept kevin davies on a 12 month contract, will be good bet for top scorer

Henry Irving

Yeah, that's the kind of man he is. First sign of trouble and he wants to bail out.

waiting till the team are relegated is hardly the "first sign of trouble". Not the first player to leave a relegated club and he won't be the last. Remember us buying a striker from Grimsby when they went down. Clive someone.

Ormiston_Addick

How can anyone tell how they are going to do when they have not signed anybody?

Bolton have cash but no team, what Powell did last year was the exception not the rule.

dave85

is nice talk about very recent premier league clubs that we'll be playing next season.

Wheresmeticket

is nice talk about very recent premier league clubs that we'll be playing next season.

Yes, is nice, isn't it. Eh?

Wheresmeticket

I have always thought that if Bolton came down they would "do a Charlton" and go into free fall, but just reading about the way they are going to take the drop, clearing a lot of players and just the sensible way they are talking, and the voluminous parachuite money, I think they will be OK next season and be a good shout to get back up.

But isn't that what we did when we went down. Drpped / lost our best players, parachute money spunked on players who couldn't / wouldn't do the business, hey presto, hello to Wycombe, Yeovil etc...

WSS

Mendonca Henry.

LargeAddick

How can anyone tell how they are going to do when they have not signed anybody?

Bolton have cash but no team, what Powell did last year was the exception not the rule.

have they the cash though? Thought they were 100m in debt.

cafcdan18

They still could do a Charlton, but Coyle is a good manager imho and will get them into shape. They lost all their best players from 2010/2011- Elmander, Sturridge, Lee, Holden and then Cahill and Muamba later on, so no surprise they failed to stay up. If they can keep a couple of their better players then they have a good chance of bouncing back.

Oggy Red

Bolton have cash but no team ......

Don't they also have a huge unsustainable debt?

They'll need to clear out nearly everyone who is on a Prem contract.
Charlton did that too ....but it was still not enough to halt the downward spiral.

ShootersHillGuru

This bit made me laugh:
Manager Owen Coyle told the club website: "I was clear with Nigel [Reo-Coker]. I asked him straight away whether he wanted to be a part of what we are going to do next season.
"He was honest and up front with us, because that is the type of man that he is, and said that he wanted to exercise the clause in his contract, so we wish him well."

Yeah, that's the kind of man he is. First sign of trouble and he wants to bail out.

That's actually so funny and yet Coyle obviously can't even see it.

RodneyCharltonTrotta

This bit made me laugh:
Manager Owen Coyle told the club website: "I was clear with Nigel [Reo-Coker]. I asked him straight away whether he wanted to be a part of what we are going to do next season.
"He was honest and up front with us, because that is the type of man that he is, and said that he wanted to exercise the clause in his contract, so we wish him well."

Yeah, that's the kind of man he is. First sign of trouble and he wants to bail out.

Doubt many people would take a massive pay cut to do the same job with less prestige all the while reducing your future career prospects and value to be fair.

Henry Irving

Mendonca Henry.

That was it.

And remember how that Darren Bent left us "at the first sign of trouble".

It happens.

Valley27000

We needed the £16.5m Darren Bent money.

MrOneLung

This bit made me laugh:
Manager Owen Coyle told the club website: "I was clear with Nigel [Reo-Coker]. I asked him straight away whether he wanted to be a part of what we are going to do next season.
"He was honest and up front with us, because that is the type of man that he is, and said that he wanted to exercise the clause in his contract, so we wish him well."

Yeah, that's the kind of man he is. First sign of trouble and he wants to bail out.

That's actually so funny and yet Coyle obviously can't even see it.

Any difference between this and Bolton exercising their right to let 12 players go?

Uboat

Mendonca Henry.

That was it.

And remember how that Darren Bent left us "at the first sign of trouble".

It happens.

Yes, yes, yes, but it's the 'that's the kind of man he is' stuff that makes it funny (to me).
Apologies to all you Reo-Coker fans out there for any upset caused.

CrayAddick

This bit made me laugh:
Manager Owen Coyle told the club website: "I was clear with Nigel [Reo-Coker]. I asked him straight away whether he wanted to be a part of what we are going to do next season.
"He was honest and up front with us, because that is the type of man that he is, and said that he wanted to exercise the clause in his contract, so we wish him well."

Yeah, that's the kind of man he is. First sign of trouble and he wants to bail out.

Typical footballer. No loyalty. But then again you could argue he just wants to play at the highest level.

Covered End

Bolton are thought to be £110M in debt. However, the vast majority of this is to the owner. So they have no drastic problems unless he wants it back. However, they will have problems with their massively reduced Championship income.

kings hill addick

Bolton are thought to be £110M in debt. However, the vast majority of this is to the owner. So they have no drastic problems unless he wants it back. However, they will have problems with their massively reduced Championship income.

On Wikipedia their owner is said to be worth £65m in total, so at best he could reduce that loan by 60% - assuming he was willing to sell everything he owns and give it all away to the club. They are currently paying 5% interest on the loan (according to the Telegraph) negotiated due to Davis's interest in the company that the debt is with - something he wouldn't have if he liquidated everything he owns. Thus we have to assume that the debt will likely be staying at the same level for some time to come. The interest on the £99m loan is at least £4.95m, and this assumes that there is no amortisation - something that is becoming more and more rare. Incidentally it is close to impossible to get interest only loans for commercial purposes, and even with a 60% loan to value of an asset, 5% is a good rate. A £99m loan with what would be best described as negative equity on a commercial loan is ridiculous, and is not likely to get any cheaper.

Releasing ten players is all well and good, but if the other fifteen (or what ever it is) are all earning, on average, £1m a year then they already have a wage bill of c. £15m and that is most of the parachute money. With interest charges of £4.95m plus other debts of £10.5m I think we can assume that they will not be spending significant sums of money on new players. I have no idea how good the rest of the players they have are, or which of them will want to move on or will need to be sold to raise money. The players they have there now might be good enough to storm the division and win promotion. They might not! It is unlikely that all the players whos contracts were coming up for renewal were the ones they wanted to get rid of, and they may well have a couple that, like Marcus Bent and and Amady Faye, they, literally, can't give away with their current contracts. That could well drain another couple of million a season.

Coyle's comments do, indeed, sound positive, but what else can he say? "Yes we're in a shit state, we are releasing all but Kevin Davis because he agreed to stay for almost nothing, and we still don't know how we are going to pay the remaining players salaries in June. The Chairman says I need to raise, net, £20m from the sale of players before the start of next season and every player is for sale. Actually I'm hoping, like crazy, that I get offered a new job soon then I can leave this terminal football club before it becomes apparent that we are going to go the exact same way as Portsmouth."

What is certain is that without a new investor, or promotion, things are going to become very difficult for them. It is no surprise, to me, that Bolton have been leading the charge for a Premier League two to protect those clubs that can't finish in the top 17 for ever.

I have nothing against Bolton, but having spent more than us to stay in the Premier League for longer than us I can't quite find myself feeling sorry for them. Leeds, Norwich, Southampton, Sheffield Wednesday, Sheffield United and Portsmouth have all fallen into the third division following relegation from the Premier League, and only Portsmouth had debts anywhere near as much. They haven't defaulted on those loans, so I have no desire for them to suffer, I just can't see how they can survive long term when their debt levels are high.

Valley27000

Blackburn will be the team to beat next season?.

ShootersHillGuru

KHA

How accurate are the reported debt figures ? Is that 110 million really what they owe or is this figure an amount being bandied about by the press ? I have no idea so just a genuine question.

Covered End

kha, could Bolton not just wipe out the loan overnight, by converting it to an equity stake for Davis ?
Alternatively, if it's owed to Davis, he could just write it off, couldn't he ?

Exiled_Addick

Jesus, I knew Bolton were not in great shape financially but I had no idea they were that deep in it. I know from a football only perspective the Premiership is 'the place to be' but for a mid-sized club like us or Bolton it seems increasingly that the only way to even just survive is to overstretch yourself financially and keeps all your fingers and toes crossed, unless you have seriously wealthy backers who don;t mind losing money eacjh year to prop the club up. When the luck runs out and you ineveitably get relegated you're staring into the abyss - personally I'm still not convinced it's worth it, hopefully financial fair play will help bring things under control but I'm not convinced.

ShootersHillGuru

Jesus, I knew Bolton were not in great shape financially but I had no idea they were that deep in it. I know from a football only perspective the Premiership is 'the place to be' but for a mid-sized club like us or Bolton it seems increasingly that the only way to even just survive is to overstretch yourself financially and keeps all your fingers and toes crossed, unless you have seriously wealthy backers who don;t mind losing money eacjh year to prop the club up. When the luck runs out and you ineveitably get relegated you're staring into the abyss - personally I'm still not convinced it's worth it, hopefully financial fair play will help bring things under control but I'm not convinced.

It's what's so sick about the greed of the PL.

Nadou

Jesus, I knew Bolton were not in great shape financially but I had no idea they were that deep in it. I know from a football only perspective the Premiership is 'the place to be' but for a mid-sized club like us or Bolton it seems increasingly that the only way to even just survive is to overstretch yourself financially and keeps all your fingers and toes crossed, unless you have seriously wealthy backers who don;t mind losing money eacjh year to prop the club up. When the luck runs out and you ineveitably get relegated you're staring into the abyss - personally I'm still not convinced it's worth it, hopefully financial fair play will help bring things under control but I'm not convinced.

Yes it's the Promised Land! ;-)

kings hill addick

kha, could Bolton not just wipe out the loan overnight, by converting it to an equity stake for Davis ?
Alternatively, if it's owed to Davis, he could just write it off, couldn't he ?

Davis is only reported to be worth £65m so even if he gave it all away it wouldn't cover the debt. Also the debt is on special terms, I imagine because of his position, if he was not worth £65m I suspect the remaining debt would be more expensive to finance. The debt is not to Davis, it's a company he has interests in.

The figure was in the Telegraph - it could still be wrong, but they did have their accounts, so I'm guessing it's accurate-ish.

The more frightening thing was that they have made losses of c. £60m in the last two years, in the Premier League.

The article is here:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/teams/bolton-wanderers/9014275/Bolton-Wanderers-must-avoid-Premier-League-relegation-to-tackle-110m-debt.html

Covered End

Thanks. I still think it's possible that the loan could be converted to equity or written off, as the investment company is probably mainly Davis in any case. It's down to Davis really isn't it.