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How many more will die.

edited March 2012 in Not Sports Related
I hope that this is not an unsuitable subject, but once again I am stunned by the loss of 6 of our young lads in Afghanisthan. We are fighting the taliban, but is there really anyone alive who does not know that as soon as we pull out the taliban will immediately be running the country again ? There is plenty of history to show, but how stupid are these politicians going to become. We had the romance between Maggie and Ronald, and Blair willing to follow any president who patted him on the head. Politicians for me have now sunk below double glazing salesmen and estate agents. This country is now filled with people looking to feather their own nest, the stories are there every day. As I say many times these days, thank goodness I am reaching the end of my life, and not just starting out. Am I wrong ?
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Comments

  • No mate.
  • Will take decades & generations to change the culture in Afghanistan, as you say, the tribes & other factions have been at it for years. But, talk to many on the ground and they do see visible progress and want to finish the job they've started, otherwise many lives have been lost in vain.

    Still not totally sure why we wade into certain countries and let long term dictators slaughter & butcher in other countries...
  • "This country is now filled with people looking to feather their own nest"

    never a truer word spoken.

  • I hope that this is not an unsuitable subject, but once again I am stunned by the loss of 6 of our young lads in Afghanisthan. We are fighting the taliban, but is there really anyone alive who does not know that as soon as we pull out the taliban will immediately be running the country again ? There is plenty of history to show, but how stupid are these politicians going to become. We had the romance between Maggie and Ronald, and Blair willing to follow any president who patted him on the head. Politicians for me have now sunk below double glazing salesmen and estate agents. This country is now filled with people looking to feather their own nest, the stories are there every day. As I say many times these days, thank goodness I am reaching the end of my life, and not just starting out. Am I wrong ?
    totally agree with that but what to do? One Army Major has been quoted as saying `we can kill them over there or wait til they get to Dover'.
    Also, The Americans have built huge airbases in Afghanistan and Iraq, which are next to......Iran.
  • In a restaurant in Bournemouth, there was a very lively group of young people saying good luck and see you soon to a young man (in communications) who will just have arrived in Afghanistan. His best mate was very upset that, for medical reasons, he was unable to sign up and join in. We've had our family ripped open by the aftermath of Iraq. All I know is that I agree with Sparrow but the young servicemen concerned would totally disagree. I don't think the politicians are being dishonourable or seeking to feather their own nests. They may perhaps be fairly accused of being profoundly ignorant, blinded by ego, misguided and getting caught in a mess that they can't find a way out of. All very messy.
  • edited March 2012
    A very deep and complex subject re sending young men off to far flung corners of the world to lay down their lives.

    At the risk of being accused of 'over simplification' I'd say.........

    "Evil prevails when good men do nothing".
  • We need to get the troops out of the middle east .. N O W. If 'protection against terrorism and a war on drugs' are two of the main criteria for our involvement, the troops would be better served in this country guarding airports, docks and even the streets if necessary
  • edited March 2012
    We'll (God forbid) be in Iran in the next few years and the literati will be debating the rights and wrongs of that campaign against another "scary bearded bogeyman" who wants to blow all the good guys to kingdom come no doubt and continue to be sceptical of Muslims in this country as to what their true motives are based on a few fruitcakes of the same religion and because that's what the media post 9/11 has subconciously told us to do.

    To keep the ever increasing gulf between the haves and have nots ticking over Capitalism needs a common tangible enemy. Communism snuffed it so now it's Islamic terrorism that keeps us quaking in our beds in fear and grateful that those in charge are protecting us and our babies from the baddies. Whilst there is no doubt that the utter loons that make up fanatical Islamic terrorism need addressing it's pretty obvious that troops dying in a shithole in Afghanistan isn't really gonna stop some severely deluded lunatic from Birmingham or Leeds blowing himself up on public transport if he's already been brainwashed to commit such an atrcocity

    Whilst us peasants still have junk food in our bellies and sky tv, football, X factor and The only way is big brother or whatever nothing will change sadly. We'll keep paying more for less and working harder for reduced payback and young men (practically kids) will keep sacrificing their lives vainly to pursue an agenda that probably only serves to achieve the interests of those calling the shots.

    Can't remember who said it but "Bread and Circuses" and "Divide and rule" is a pretty good summation of how this country is ruled it appears to me and will continue to keep us peasants from revolting.

    image
  • We need to get the troops out of the middle east .. N O W. If 'protection against terrorism and a war on drugs' are two of the main criteria for our involvement, the troops would be better served in this country guarding airports, docks and even the streets if necessary
    Spot on.
  • edited March 2012
    I hope that this is not an unsuitable subject, but once again I am stunned by the loss of 6 of our young lads in Afghanisthan. We are fighting the taliban, but is there really anyone alive who does not know that as soon as we pull out the taliban will immediately be running the country again ? There is plenty of history to show, but how stupid are these politicians going to become. We had the romance between Maggie and Ronald, and Blair willing to follow any president who patted him on the head. Politicians for me have now sunk below double glazing salesmen and estate agents. This country is now filled with people looking to feather their own nest, the stories are there every day. As I say many times these days, thank goodness I am reaching the end of my life, and not just starting out. Am I wrong ?
    Our soldiers have made the ultimate sacrifice to ensure peace and stability in the region, to give people a real chance to live their lives without fear of capital punishment and summary executions. Let us not forget the attacks on NY, London and other countries around the world.

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  • edited March 2012
    We need to get the troops out of the middle east .. N O W. If 'protection against terrorism and a war on drugs' are two of the main criteria for our involvement, the troops would be better served in this country guarding airports, docks and even the streets if necessary
    Spot on.
    According to Call me Dave there is "no more urgent task for the government" than speeding up the adoption process and removing "absurd" barriers to mixed race adoption" if today's news is to be believed... so might have to wait a bit. Of course a great cause but I think stopping British kids being blown to bits in the middle east should also be up there on the urgent to do list as well.

    Great soundbite though and makes him come across all touchy feely and as someone who truly cares about ordinary folk. ;- {
  • edited March 2012
    I hope that this is not an unsuitable subject, but once again I am stunned by the loss of 6 of our young lads in Afghanisthan. We are fighting the taliban, but is there really anyone alive who does not know that as soon as we pull out the taliban will immediately be running the country again ? There is plenty of history to show, but how stupid are these politicians going to become. We had the romance between Maggie and Ronald, and Blair willing to follow any president who patted him on the head. Politicians for me have now sunk below double glazing salesmen and estate agents. This country is now filled with people looking to feather their own nest, the stories are there every day. As I say many times these days, thank goodness I am reaching the end of my life, and not just starting out. Am I wrong ?
    Our soldiers have made the ultimate sacrifice to ensure peace and stability in the region, to give people a real chance to live their lives without fear of capital punishment and summary executions. Let us not forget the attacks on NY, London and other countries around the world.


    Take it we will be heading to Saudi Arabia next then to stop the abhorrent treatment of women and the underclass and fear of capital punishment and summary executions over there too then. Mainly saudis and Egyptians on those planes wasnt it led by another saudi nutter.
  • My nephew is a Royal Marine, before he went to Afghanistan last year we as a family clubbed together to buy him the best equipment we could because they are being sent out there with stuff that isn't the best. They are putting their lives on the line for this country and there should be no cost cutting when it comes down to basic safety equipment
  • I hope that this is not an unsuitable subject, but once again I am stunned by the loss of 6 of our young lads in Afghanisthan. We are fighting the taliban, but is there really anyone alive who does not know that as soon as we pull out the taliban will immediately be running the country again ? There is plenty of history to show, but how stupid are these politicians going to become. We had the romance between Maggie and Ronald, and Blair willing to follow any president who patted him on the head. Politicians for me have now sunk below double glazing salesmen and estate agents. This country is now filled with people looking to feather their own nest, the stories are there every day. As I say many times these days, thank goodness I am reaching the end of my life, and not just starting out. Am I wrong ?
    Our soldiers have made the ultimate sacrifice to ensure peace and stability in the region, to give people a real chance to live their lives without fear of capital punishment and summary executions. Let us not forget the attacks on NY, London and other countries around the world.


    Take it we will be heading to Saudi Arabia next then to stop the abhorrent treatment of women and the underclass and fear of capital punishment and summary executions over there too then. Mainly saudis and Egyptians on those planes wasnt it led by another saudi nutter.
    Not sure Saudi Arabia allow terrorist organisations to set up military camps for the sole purpose of attacking the US and ourselves.
  • edited March 2012
    Nope they dont but having lived there and seen it first hand the treatment of women and the underclass is not a million miles away from what went on in Afghanistan just less reported. As for the terrorism aspect I dont buy 100% at face value the argument we are are sold that it's for our national security ...whilst there may be an element of that i dont think you need to go on a training camp over there to learn how to blow up a tube train and i cant see how having our soldiers out there is stopping anything. Those with evil intentions will just plan things elsewhere out of the sight and reach of armed forces.

    They are deluded nutters and I cant see how losing young British soldiers lives over there on an all too frequent basis is justified. We are now supposedly "negotiating" with the scum that is the Taliban and when we pull out eventually I doubt itll take long before they revert to what they were like leading up to the conflict in the 90s onwards.
  • We'll (God forbid) be in Iran in the next few years and the literati will be debating the rights and wrongs of that campaign against another "scary bearded bogeyman" who wants to blow all the good guys to kingdom come no doubt and continue to be sceptical of Muslims in this country as to what their true motives are based on a few fruitcakes of the same religion and because that's what the media post 9/11 has subconciously told us to do.

    To keep the ever increasing gulf between the haves and have nots ticking over Capitalism needs a common tangible enemy. Communism snuffed it so now it's Islamic terrorism that keeps us quaking in our beds in fear and grateful that those in charge are protecting us and our babies from the baddies. Whilst there is no doubt that the utter loons that make up fanatical Islamic terrorism need addressing it's pretty obvious that troops dying in a shithole in Afghanistan isn't really gonna stop some severely deluded lunatic from Birmingham or Leeds blowing himself up on public transport if he's already been brainwashed to commit such an atrcocity

    Whilst us peasants still have junk food in our bellies and sky tv, football, X factor and The only way is big brother or whatever nothing will change sadly. We'll keep paying more for less and working harder for reduced payback and young men (practically kids) will keep sacrificing their lives vainly to pursue an agenda that probably only serves to achieve the interests of those calling the shots.

    Can't remember who said it but "Bread and Circuses" and "Divide and rule" is a pretty good summation of how this country is ruled it appears to me and will continue to keep us peasants from revolting.

    image
    well argued Rodders. However, I can't see the UK ever being party to an Invasion and occupation of Iran. I belive that economics and the eventual death of the aging mullahs and religious fanatics will cause implosion in the current Iranian regime á la the USSR . It will take time though. And it's about time that Israel committed ground forces to protecting it's own sovereignty rather than relying on the USA and its' cohorts, although I suppose that if one owns the USA political system as does Israel, why pay lots for a dog and do your own biting. Bread and Circuses has been a panacea to overfed, overtaxed and over selfindulgent populi since Roman times. Marx called it 'opium for the masses', or was he referring to that omnipresent superstition religion.
  • Im sure years ago if it was suggested that after arming Saddam Hussein ahead of invading Iraq or arming the Taliban vs the Soviets before going to war on them it would seem just as unlikely links. Lets hope so though.
  • As long as you have fatwas with death penalties to punish those who do not show utmost respect for THEIR religion or even worse, abandon it for
    another one, the problem will never be solved.
    And as long as no prominent cleric has the courage and takes the risk explaining that if you die fulfilling the orders of a fatwa, there is no way
    you will ever go to heaven and help yourself to 40 virgins, then you will always find millions of uneducated nutters ready to sacrifice themselves
    for such an appealing prospect (some big deal!).
    Dictators' life expectations are falling rapidly but as long as the religious extremists flourish, we will not not be safe anywhere.
    We went through that situation during and after the Inquisition and survived but will those others today outgrow the present one? Probably not,
    that's why the future looks bleak.
  • As long as you have fatwas with death penalties to punish those who do not show utmost respect for THEIR religion or even worse, abandon it for
    another one, the problem will never be solved.
    And as long as no prominent cleric has the courage and takes the risk explaining that if you die fulfilling the orders of a fatwa, there is no way
    you will ever go to heaven and help yourself to 40 virgins, then you will always find millions of uneducated nutters ready to sacrifice themselves
    for such an appealing prospect (some big deal!).
    Dictators' life expectations are falling rapidly but as long as the religious extremists flourish, we will not not be safe anywhere.
    We went through that situation during and after the Inquisition and survived but will those others today outgrow the present one? Probably not,
    that's why the future looks bleak.
    Orange sacked their original marketing team after this proposed ad campaign ;-)

  • Not sure Saudi Arabia allow terrorist organisations to set up military camps for the sole purpose of attacking the US and ourselves.

    Evidence suggests that the Saudi's are the biggest funders of Islamic terrorist groups:

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/dec/05/wikileaks-cables-saudi-terrorist-funding

    Unfortunately Saudi Arabia is also one of the world's biggest exporters of oil and handily like to import a lot of luxury goods from the west as well as western made armaments, so there's zero chance of the UN or west generally doing anything to stem the support that the Saudi's give to some terrorist groups.

    Bear in mind that in the immediate aftermath of September 11 Bush let several members of the Saudi Royal Family leave the US in specially arranged flights, he was also equally generous to members of the bin Laden clan and when Congress investigated 9/11 he stalled about appearing before the committee and insisted that excerpts detailing Saudi support for Islamic terrorism be blanked out of the official report. The links between the House of Saud and the Bush family go back generations.
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  • This is all so depressing and such a futile waste of young men's lives - it is truly heartbreaking. The issues surrounding it are complex and neither side of the argument has a monopoly on the truth.

    Do you pull out and send the message to all the families of the bereaved that their lives were given up for nothing?

    Or do you see it out and try to make their sacrifice ultimately bear fruit and give us some sense of purpose knowing that more will have to pay with their lives to bring this about?

    I wish I knew the answer and I wish it was a simple one. All I know is that when I hear reports like yesterday's I find it very upsetting as it is difficult to see it as anything other than a waste of young life.
  • edited March 2012
    When you see brave young men being brought home in boxes, you have to question whether their sacrifice will make a difference or make things worse. These kids were heros and did their duty, but I'd rather see a few politicians out there instead, putting their money where their mouth is!

    You only have to walk down Whitehall and see the cenotaph and Lord Haig's statue facing it -the idiot who was responsible for the needles deaths of countless young men. Onn the 100th anniversary of WW1 it should be removed and thrown in the river. By criticising the idiots you should never undermine the sacrifice and respect you have for our heros though.
  • This is a tragic waste of life and an all too common occurence . Unfortunately many more will die for reasons that are not being told. War and fear mongering and propaganda are the unfortunate norm. Manipulating the news ("Syrian Danny" and Aljarrez exposed,check it out) and working with known terrorist organisations (US sos admission on recent BBC interview , check it out) are the unfortunate norm. Research hard and free your mind from the brainwashing and see a propaganda stunt bagged and tagged with ease. And tragically this propaganda ends up killing the young servicemen and women. As an earlier post said, Evil prevails when good men do nothing. Just gotta know where to look.
  • Will take decades & generations to change the culture in Afghanistan, as you say, the tribes & other factions have been at it for years. But, talk to many on the ground and they do see visible progress and want to finish the job they've started, otherwise many lives have been lost in vain.

    Still not totally sure why we wade into certain countries and let long term dictators slaughter & butcher in other countries...
    Because there's no money to be made / political gain from those countries.
  • totally agree with that but what to do? One Army Major has been quoted as saying `we can kill them over there or wait til they get to Dover'.
    Also, The Americans have built huge airbases in Afghanistan and Iraq, which are next to......Iran.
    This is to make people believe that they would in fact invade, and to make people belive that the war is worthwhile. We could do nothing over there and we would still not be in any danger.

  • We'll (God forbid) be in Iran in the next few years and the literati will be debating the rights and wrongs of that campaign against another "scary bearded bogeyman" who wants to blow all the good guys to kingdom come no doubt and continue to be sceptical of Muslims in this country as to what their true motives are based on a few fruitcakes of the same religion and because that's what the media post 9/11 has subconciously told us to do.

    To keep the ever increasing gulf between the haves and have nots ticking over Capitalism needs a common tangible enemy. Communism snuffed it so now it's Islamic terrorism that keeps us quaking in our beds in fear and grateful that those in charge are protecting us and our babies from the baddies. Whilst there is no doubt that the utter loons that make up fanatical Islamic terrorism need addressing it's pretty obvious that troops dying in a shithole in Afghanistan isn't really gonna stop some severely deluded lunatic from Birmingham or Leeds blowing himself up on public transport if he's already been brainwashed to commit such an atrcocity

    Whilst us peasants still have junk food in our bellies and sky tv, football, X factor and The only way is big brother or whatever nothing will change sadly. We'll keep paying more for less and working harder for reduced payback and young men (practically kids) will keep sacrificing their lives vainly to pursue an agenda that probably only serves to achieve the interests of those calling the shots.

    Can't remember who said it but "Bread and Circuses" and "Divide and rule" is a pretty good summation of how this country is ruled it appears to me and will continue to keep us peasants from revolting.

    image
    Excellent. Agree. I just don't understand while anyone would want to go and fight in such a pointless war.
  • edited March 2012
    Evil: UK government?
    Good men: General UK Public?
  • Research everything and judge for yourself JM. If they are beating their war drums then close scrutiny of all the propaganda would be recommended. It won't take long to realise what the SOPA bill was all about.
  • Research everything and judge for yourself JM. If they are beating their war drums then close scrutiny of all the propaganda would be recommended. It won't take long to realise what the SOPA bill was all about.
    How could you possible research everything? The best you could hope to do is read other peoples accounts. And most of that will be propoganda.

  • Perhaps research everything thats claimed to be the truth prior to wars etc would be easier and less time consuming. Researching everything would indeed be too much. Check out alternative news channels and make up your own mind
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