Got Friday off though thought I go to the first showing down our way..
Seen a couple of clips and Streep can certainly play the part - she makes me feel 21 again, watching and hearing her! I just hope the film lives up to her performance.
Thats the point, Howe proposed it, Thatcher dismissed it.....move on.
A lot of people have some sort of mother issue when it comes to thatcher. Think of Francis in malcolm in the middle. Hates Lois' guts but can't stop talking about her, even though its been years and years since he's had to live with her.
Get over it guys.
I think a lot of people who were young and on the left then cling on to Thatcher hatred. As you grow older and (perhaps) wiser, the world no longer seems as black and whiite as it once did. You start to admit to yourself that maybe the unions did have too much power or that iunilateral disarmament was perhaps a bit naive. You are no longer so certain in your political positions, you stop supporting a party like it's a football team. But Maggie is preserved in 1983 aspic. She hasn't changed and so your view of her doesn't need to either, She can remain a safe hate figure and you can kid yourself that you haven't sold out, not really.
So true.
One thing for sure is that when she pops her clogs later this year, I'm dreading some of the disrespect that a few people will show. I can understand dislike, but the vitriol that is spat just with mention of her name by some people makes me shudder.
God knows how some people would have reacted to Churchill with some of decisions he had to make throughout his political career.
Thats the point, Howe proposed it, Thatcher dismissed it.....move on.
A lot of people have some sort of mother issue when it comes to thatcher. Think of Francis in malcolm in the middle. Hates Lois' guts but can't stop talking about her, even though its been years and years since he's had to live with her.
Get over it guys.
I think a lot of people who were young and on the left then cling on to Thatcher hatred. As you grow older and (perhaps) wiser, the world no longer seems as black and whiite as it once did. You start to admit to yourself that maybe the unions did have too much power or that iunilateral disarmament was perhaps a bit naive. You are no longer so certain in your political positions, you stop supporting a party like it's a football team. But Maggie is preserved in 1983 aspic. She hasn't changed and so your view of her doesn't need to either, She can remain a safe hate figure and you can kid yourself that you haven't sold out, not really.
That's an interesting point. A few months ago I switched on the radio and there were two old guys having a really sensible discussion. They had different views, but I could see a sense and a logic to what both of them said and they were discussing quite amicably. One I immediately recognised as Tony Benn, who has always been a hero of mine. The other I couldn't quite place at first, but listened on and was was very surprised to hear that it was Norman Tebbitt. A man who I had absolutely loathed in the '80s but who now sounded, to my ears, quite reasonable. I still can't imagine Tatch sounding reasonable though. I think she has come to personify values to which I am absolutely opposed whereas Lord Tebbitt was just occupying a certain territory at the time.
I think a lot of people from my generation will hate Blair and Brown for single handedly destroying our aspirations and selling our soul.
Edward Heath sold the souls of the British people, Thatcher destroyed the morale of the British people..........Blair merely followed the tradition. Incidentally, they wrre all voted in by the public, so perhaps it was 'self destruct'
Thats the point, Howe proposed it, Thatcher dismissed it.....move on.
A lot of people have some sort of mother issue when it comes to thatcher. Think of Francis in malcolm in the middle. Hates Lois' guts but can't stop talking about her, even though its been years and years since he's had to live with her.
Get over it guys.
I think a lot of people who were young and on the left then cling on to Thatcher hatred. As you grow older and (perhaps) wiser, the world no longer seems as black and whiite as it once did. You start to admit to yourself that maybe the unions did have too much power or that iunilateral disarmament was perhaps a bit naive. You are no longer so certain in your political positions, you stop supporting a party like it's a football team. But Maggie is preserved in 1983 aspic. She hasn't changed and so your view of her doesn't need to either, She can remain a safe hate figure and you can kid yourself that you haven't sold out, not really.
So true.
One thing for sure is that when she pops her clogs later this year, I'm dreading some of the disrespect that a few people will show. I can understand dislike, but the vitriol that is spat just with mention of her name by some people makes me shudder.
God knows how some people would have reacted to Churchill with some of decisions he had to make throughout his political career.
Thatcher or her acolytes really cannot whinge too much about many people’s vitriolic feelings towards her – her unpopularity was a badge she wore with pride and used it as much to her own advantage as anything else in her armoury by ‘wedging’ the nation on so many issues.
I am a lifelong Labour man but really did not have a huge problem with John Major as Prime Minister, nor do I have any real issue with David Cameron as Prime Minister, I would not vote for either of them but they are both reasonable, civilised people who were/are prepared to listed to both sides of an argument.
By contrast, Thatcher ritually ignored and humiliated her cabinet – including her most senior lieutenants like Lawson, Howe and Heseltine – and made it clear in more ways than ten that this was her show and she would run it as she damned well pleased.
The Poll Tax was a classic example of her arrogance and refusal to listen to her advisers, she was told by nearly 2/3 of her cabinet and by everyone in Whitehall that it was unworkable and would lead to chaos and pushed on anyway – and we all know what happened next.
Moreover, Thatcher or her supporters can hardly complain about personal vilification, she and her backers in the right wing press spent most of the 80’s/90’s ridiculing and making nasty personal attacks on Foot, Kinnock, Ashdown and any other leader who was in opposition to her – and I did not hear her complain about those tactics at the time.
Having now met and worked with politicians from both side of the left/right divide I realise that party affiliation is a pretty meagre reason to hate someone, there are good and bad people on both sides of politics and, funnily enough, despite my own political views most of the people I have gotten on with best have been conservatives, albeit normally those of a more liberal persuasion.
Worthy of note that as a war leader Churchill was adored but as soon as the war ended he was swept out of office. To return later admittedly.
Not entirely true, he was well known as a drunk, a womaniser, arrogant, and generally unpleasant fellow to know.
If he had been around today he would not be a success as his exploits would have all over the media. It would also be highlighted that post war he made several speeches which were almost identical except for the last word - "success in the war was entirely thanks to the actions of: delete as apporiate soldiers, air force, royal navy, merchant navy, home guard, intelliegance service etc etc.
It is hard to say if the world would be worse off because the media would have put him out of a job as you don't know who would have been there instead.
Thats the point, Howe proposed it, Thatcher dismissed it.....move on.
A lot of people have some sort of mother issue when it comes to thatcher. Think of Francis in malcolm in the middle. Hates Lois' guts but can't stop talking about her, even though its been years and years since he's had to live with her.
Get over it guys.
I think a lot of people who were young and on the left then cling on to Thatcher hatred. As you grow older and (perhaps) wiser, the world no longer seems as black and whiite as it once did. You start to admit to yourself that maybe the unions did have too much power or that iunilateral disarmament was perhaps a bit naive. You are no longer so certain in your political positions, you stop supporting a party like it's a football team. But Maggie is preserved in 1983 aspic. She hasn't changed and so your view of her doesn't need to either, She can remain a safe hate figure and you can kid yourself that you haven't sold out, not really.
So true.
One thing for sure is that when she pops her clogs later this year, I'm dreading some of the disrespect that a few people will show. I can understand dislike, but the vitriol that is spat just with mention of her name by some people makes me shudder.
God knows how some people would have reacted to Churchill with some of decisions he had to make throughout his political career.
Thatcher or her acolytes really cannot whinge too much about many people’s vitriolic feelings towards her – her unpopularity was a badge she wore with pride and used it as much to her own advantage as anything else in her armoury by ‘wedging’ the nation on so many issues.
I am a lifelong Labour man but really did not have a huge problem with John Major as Prime Minister, nor do I have any real issue with David Cameron as Prime Minister, I would not vote for either of them but they are both reasonable, civilised people who were/are prepared to listed to both sides of an argument.
By contrast, Thatcher ritually ignored and humiliated her cabinet – including her most senior lieutenants like Lawson, Howe and Heseltine – and made it clear in more ways than ten that this was her show and she would run it as she damned well pleased.
The Poll Tax was a classic example of her arrogance and refusal to listen to her advisers, she was told by nearly 2/3 of her cabinet and by everyone in Whitehall that it was unworkable and would lead to chaos and pushed on anyway – and we all know what happened next.
Moreover, Thatcher or her supporters can hardly complain about personal vilification, she and her backers in the right wing press spent most of the 80’s/90’s ridiculing and making nasty personal attacks on Foot, Kinnock, Ashdown and any other leader who was in opposition to her – and I did not hear her complain about those tactics at the time.
Having now met and worked with politicians from both side of the left/right divide I realise that party affiliation is a pretty meagre reason to hate someone, there are good and bad people on both sides of politics and, funnily enough, despite my own political views most of the people I have gotten on with best have been conservatives, albeit normally those of a more liberal persuasion.
I hate to say this but I question some of your arguments.
Thatcher did indeed not listen to her cabinet as much as her predecessors. But Blair stopped having regular cabinet meetings altogether.
Thatcher would never have gotten away with what Blair did, she may have not followed her cabinets advice but they had the chance to give it. Blair regularly made decisions which were not even put to the cabinet, and the whips were much more vicious in his time than they had been in hers.
I am not backing Blair or Thatcher but for every argument there is a counter.
You say poll tax I say Iraq war.
Blair not only ignored all his cabinet advisors, he also ignored the legal advisors who warned him the whole thing was illegal.
"I am a lifelong Labour man but really did not have a huge problem with John Major as Prime Minister,"
I agree. (although I am not lifelong Labour, more anti-Tory centre left, blah, blah) You know, I guess, that Vaclav Havel passed away before Christmas. Cameron attended the funeral (good, but to be expected) But a big surprise was to see John Major with him. Major would simply have decided to go off his own bat, because he knew VH as the Czech president when he was PM. That reaffirmed my impression of Major as a decent person. I have no such impression of Thatcher. Heartless small-minded old bat. And she really detested all football fans, not just 'hooligans', she didn't make a distinction.
This thread has gone off at a tangent though. Pity, because I am working on a FOI website (version of whatdotheyknow.com) here in Czech, and any UK experience interests me.
"I am a lifelong Labour man but really did not have a huge problem with John Major as Prime Minister,"
I agree. (although I am not lifelong Labour, more anti-Tory centre left, blah, blah) You know, I guess, that Vaclav Havel passed away before Christmas. Cameron attended the funeral (good, but to be expected) But a big surprise was to see John Major with him. Major would simply have decided to go off his own bat, because he knew VH as the Czech president when he was PM. That reaffirmed my impression of Major as a decent person. I have no such impression of Thatcher. Heartless small-minded old bat. And she really detested all football fans, not just 'hooligans', she didn't make a distinction.
This thread has gone off at a tangent though. Pity, because I am working on a FOI website (version of whatdotheyknow.com) here in Czech, and any UK experience interests me.
Aah, that would perhaps explain your eagerness to question the FL on the festive fixtures.
I have always worked in roles where everything I do was placed under constant and ruthless scrutiny, so maybe I think other well-paid people should have similar scrutiny, especially when they are paid from my and your money, be it through tax or what we spend on football.
But actually, since school days I've always been a trouble-maker :-)
Blair not only ignored all his cabinet advisors, he also ignored the legal advisors who warned him the whole thing was illegal. .................
I don't think you'll get any argument from most people who are left of centre politically that the Iraq war was illegal and immoral, but the problem was that most people right of centre queued up to support it, as did the Tory media. In essence it was typical Blairism - triangulate the opposition and then once they were divided, rule.
Since you want to compare Thatcher with Blair I don't recall any mass defections or opposition to her from with the Tory party over the poll tax. I can remember the day she resigned - well carted away in tears after her party had told her enough - in our office there was an outbreaking of cheering, when Blair went it was more muted "so he's off then" and that was it.
Thatcher left us with a mixed legacy - undoubtedly there was some good but we squandered a once in a lifetime thing with North Sea oil revenues and then sold off far too cheaply the nationalised industries to pay for her pretty disastrous economic policies. Part of Thatcher's problem - maybe allied to the lack of a devil's advocate figure in her cabinet - was that she couldn't and didn't have a plan for the consequences of her actions - there was too much wishfull thinking. The Falkands were left unprotected and the Argentinians marched in thanking us for leaving the door ajar. Coal, steel, car building and other industries involving significant investment were starved of funds or shut down because interest rates were too high and the costs therefore too great. What about the millions thrown onto the dole? Where was the plan to re-train them to meet the needs of a changing economy? That legacy - of high unemployment and a benefit culture has been with us since and only goes unseen because we choose to ignore it. In the Thatcher era a sycophantic press blamed the unemployed and that too has lingered. Other nations - Germany notably invested their way out of the 1980s, we shrunk our government and suffered. Another legacy is that we have in Cmaeron and Osborne two Tory politicians who are trying to recreate Thatcherism and we've just put out Blair and Brown who kept the meme going. We need to fundamentally reconsider where we are going and learn from the past, to paraphrase Santayana - those who don't learn from it wil repeat its mistakes.
What this has to do with Freedom of Information requests I don't know...
Worthy of note that as a war leader Churchill was adored but as soon as the war ended he was swept out of office. To return later admittedly.
Not entirely true, he was well known as a drunk, a womaniser, arrogant, and generally unpleasant fellow to know.
If he had been around today he would not be a success as his exploits would have all over the media. It would also be highlighted that post war he made several speeches which were almost identical except for the last word - "success in the war was entirely thanks to the actions of: delete as apporiate soldiers, air force, royal navy, merchant navy, home guard, intelliegance service etc etc.
It is hard to say if the world would be worse off because the media would have put him out of a job as you don't know who would have been there instead.
Chruchill wouldn't have survived modern press scrutiny (he was off work for six months during his second premiership - the press knew but didn'y say a word). Equally Attlee would struggle to have got elected to anything.
Thats the point, Howe proposed it, Thatcher dismissed it.....move on.
A lot of people have some sort of mother issue when it comes to thatcher. Think of Francis in malcolm in the middle. Hates Lois' guts but can't stop talking about her, even though its been years and years since he's had to live with her.
Get over it guys.
I think a lot of people who were young and on the left then cling on to Thatcher hatred. As you grow older and (perhaps) wiser, the world no longer seems as black and whiite as it once did. You start to admit to yourself that maybe the unions did have too much power or that iunilateral disarmament was perhaps a bit naive. You are no longer so certain in your political positions, you stop supporting a party like it's a football team. But Maggie is preserved in 1983 aspic. She hasn't changed and so your view of her doesn't need to either, She can remain a safe hate figure and you can kid yourself that you haven't sold out, not really.
So true.
One thing for sure is that when she pops her clogs later this year, I'm dreading some of the disrespect that a few people will show. I can understand dislike, but the vitriol that is spat just with mention of her name by some people makes me shudder.
God knows how some people would have reacted to Churchill with some of decisions he had to make throughout his political career.
Thatcher or her acolytes really cannot whinge too much about many people’s vitriolic feelings towards her – her unpopularity was a badge she wore with pride and used it as much to her own advantage as anything else in her armoury by ‘wedging’ the nation on so many issues.
I am a lifelong Labour man but really did not have a huge problem with John Major as Prime Minister, nor do I have any real issue with David Cameron as Prime Minister, I would not vote for either of them but they are both reasonable, civilised people who were/are prepared to listed to both sides of an argument.
By contrast, Thatcher ritually ignored and humiliated her cabinet – including her most senior lieutenants like Lawson, Howe and Heseltine – and made it clear in more ways than ten that this was her show and she would run it as she damned well pleased.
The Poll Tax was a classic example of her arrogance and refusal to listen to her advisers, she was told by nearly 2/3 of her cabinet and by everyone in Whitehall that it was unworkable and would lead to chaos and pushed on anyway – and we all know what happened next.
Moreover, Thatcher or her supporters can hardly complain about personal vilification, she and her backers in the right wing press spent most of the 80’s/90’s ridiculing and making nasty personal attacks on Foot, Kinnock, Ashdown and any other leader who was in opposition to her – and I did not hear her complain about those tactics at the time.
Having now met and worked with politicians from both side of the left/right divide I realise that party affiliation is a pretty meagre reason to hate someone, there are good and bad people on both sides of politics and, funnily enough, despite my own political views most of the people I have gotten on with best have been conservatives, albeit normally those of a more liberal persuasion.
I hate to say this but I question some of your arguments.
Thatcher did indeed not listen to her cabinet as much as her predecessors. But Blair stopped having regular cabinet meetings altogether.
Thatcher would never have gotten away with what Blair did, she may have not followed her cabinets advice but they had the chance to give it. Blair regularly made decisions which were not even put to the cabinet, and the whips were much more vicious in his time than they had been in hers.
I am not backing Blair or Thatcher but for every argument there is a counter.
You say poll tax I say Iraq war.
Blair not only ignored all his cabinet advisors, he also ignored the legal advisors who warned him the whole thing was illegal.
This debate is about Thatcher, not Blair, isn’t it?
You won’t find many people with as much contempt for Blair as me, I can assure you of that.
Anyone remember the winter of discontent? As a Liberal, I cant wait for the FOI disclosures of that period. Jim Callaghan's Labour government sought to hold a pay freeze to control inflation? No wonder the country demanded a change.
Anyone remember the winter of discontent? As a Liberal, I cant wait for the FOI disclosures of that period. Jim Callaghan's Labour government sought to hold a pay freeze to control inflation? No wonder the country demanded a change.
Er, should that stuff not be out already?
It happened in 78-79 before Thatcher even came to power.
Anyone remember the winter of discontent? As a Liberal, I cant wait for the FOI disclosures of that period. Jim Callaghan's Labour government sought to hold a pay freeze to control inflation? No wonder the country demanded a change.
Quite. The give away may be the mention of Jim Callaghan's Labour Government?
Do keep up.
You said that you "can't wait for FOI disclosures of that period."
Given that FOI lasts 30 years and we have just had the release of the 1981 information then all of the stuff relating to the WOD was released in 2009-2010.
The likelihood is that there was nothing very exciting in that batch of papers.
Interesting piece but nothing too revelatory in there, there were more leaks in the Labour Party in the 1980's than a sieve so most of the good stuff has already come out.
The Tories - for their first two terms - had a much tighter cabinet, it did not really start unravelling until after the 1987 election.
Comments
Got Friday off though thought I go to the first showing down our way..
Seen a couple of clips and Streep can certainly play the part - she makes me feel 21 again, watching and hearing her! I just hope the film lives up to her performance.
So true.
One thing for sure is that when she pops her clogs later this year, I'm dreading some of the disrespect that a few people will show. I can understand dislike, but the vitriol that is spat just with mention of her name by some people makes me shudder.
God knows how some people would have reacted to Churchill with some of decisions he had to make throughout his political career.
Thatcher swept back into power after the Falklands War.
The Tories love a bit of jingoism.
Edward Heath sold the souls of the British people, Thatcher destroyed the morale of the British people..........Blair merely followed the tradition. Incidentally, they wrre all voted in by the public, so perhaps it was 'self destruct'
Thatcher or her acolytes really cannot whinge too much about many people’s vitriolic feelings towards her – her unpopularity was a badge she wore with pride and used it as much to her own advantage as anything else in her armoury by ‘wedging’ the nation on so many issues.
I am a lifelong Labour man but really did not have a huge problem with John Major as Prime Minister, nor do I have any real issue with David Cameron as Prime Minister, I would not vote for either of them but they are both reasonable, civilised people who were/are prepared to listed to both sides of an argument.
By contrast, Thatcher ritually ignored and humiliated her cabinet – including her most senior lieutenants like Lawson, Howe and Heseltine – and made it clear in more ways than ten that this was her show and she would run it as she damned well pleased.
The Poll Tax was a classic example of her arrogance and refusal to listen to her advisers, she was told by nearly 2/3 of her cabinet and by everyone in Whitehall that it was unworkable and would lead to chaos and pushed on anyway – and we all know what happened next.
Moreover, Thatcher or her supporters can hardly complain about personal vilification, she and her backers in the right wing press spent most of the 80’s/90’s ridiculing and making nasty personal attacks on Foot, Kinnock, Ashdown and any other leader who was in opposition to her – and I did not hear her complain about those tactics at the time.
Having now met and worked with politicians from both side of the left/right divide I realise that party affiliation is a pretty meagre reason to hate someone, there are good and bad people on both sides of politics and, funnily enough, despite my own political views most of the people I have gotten on with best have been conservatives, albeit normally those of a more liberal persuasion.
Be careful what you wish for, you might get it.
Brilliant!
Not entirely true, he was well known as a drunk, a womaniser, arrogant, and generally unpleasant fellow to know.
If he had been around today he would not be a success as his exploits would have all over the media. It would also be highlighted that post war he made several speeches which were almost identical except for the last word - "success in the war was entirely thanks to the actions of: delete as apporiate soldiers, air force, royal navy, merchant navy, home guard, intelliegance service etc etc.
It is hard to say if the world would be worse off because the media would have put him out of a job as you don't know who would have been there instead.
I hate to say this but I question some of your arguments.
Thatcher did indeed not listen to her cabinet as much as her predecessors. But Blair stopped having regular cabinet meetings altogether.
Thatcher would never have gotten away with what Blair did, she may have not followed her cabinets advice but they had the chance to give it. Blair regularly made decisions which were not even put to the cabinet, and the whips were much more vicious in his time than they had been in hers.
I am not backing Blair or Thatcher but for every argument there is a counter.
You say poll tax I say Iraq war.
Blair not only ignored all his cabinet advisors, he also ignored the legal advisors who warned him the whole thing was illegal.
Aah, that would perhaps explain your eagerness to question the FL on the festive fixtures.
.................
I don't think you'll get any argument from most people who are left of centre politically that the Iraq war was illegal and immoral, but the problem was that most people right of centre queued up to support it, as did the Tory media. In essence it was typical Blairism - triangulate the opposition and then once they were divided, rule.
Since you want to compare Thatcher with Blair I don't recall any mass defections or opposition to her from with the Tory party over the poll tax. I can remember the day she resigned - well carted away in tears after her party had told her enough - in our office there was an outbreaking of cheering, when Blair went it was more muted "so he's off then" and that was it.
Thatcher left us with a mixed legacy - undoubtedly there was some good but we squandered a once in a lifetime thing with North Sea oil revenues and then sold off far too cheaply the nationalised industries to pay for her pretty disastrous economic policies. Part of Thatcher's problem - maybe allied to the lack of a devil's advocate figure in her cabinet - was that she couldn't and didn't have a plan for the consequences of her actions - there was too much wishfull thinking. The Falkands were left unprotected and the Argentinians marched in thanking us for leaving the door ajar. Coal, steel, car building and other industries involving significant investment were starved of funds or shut down because interest rates were too high and the costs therefore too great. What about the millions thrown onto the dole? Where was the plan to re-train them to meet the needs of a changing economy? That legacy - of high unemployment and a benefit culture has been with us since and only goes unseen because we choose to ignore it. In the Thatcher era a sycophantic press blamed the unemployed and that too has lingered. Other nations - Germany notably invested their way out of the 1980s, we shrunk our government and suffered. Another legacy is that we have in Cmaeron and Osborne two Tory politicians who are trying to recreate Thatcherism and we've just put out Blair and Brown who kept the meme going. We need to fundamentally reconsider where we are going and learn from the past, to paraphrase Santayana - those who don't learn from it wil repeat its mistakes.
What this has to do with Freedom of Information requests I don't know...
Welcome to the dark side....
I am making a few phone calls and sending some emails tomorrow afternoon and will keep you very interested souls updated
This debate is about Thatcher, not Blair, isn’t it?
You won’t find many people with as much contempt for Blair as me, I can assure you of that.Can I volunteer myself?
Rifleman Sachin Limbu RIP
As a Liberal, I cant wait for the FOI disclosures of that period.
Jim Callaghan's Labour government sought to hold a pay freeze to control inflation?
No wonder the country demanded a change.
Er, should that stuff not be out already?
It happened in 78-79 before Thatcher even came to power.
The give away may be the mention of Jim Callaghan's Labour Government?
ah yes....
Do keep up.
You said that you "can't wait for FOI disclosures of that period."
Given that FOI lasts 30 years and we have just had the release of the 1981 information then all of the stuff relating to the WOD was released in 2009-2010.
The likelihood is that there was nothing very exciting in that batch of papers.
Must have missed the release of the inner workings of that descent into chaos!
As you say, I really should keep up!
Some interesting insights now you've spurred me into some research
Hattersley in the Guardian
http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2009/mar/22/james-callaghan-labour-1979-thatcher
Interesting piece but nothing too revelatory in there, there were more leaks in the Labour Party in the 1980's than a sieve so most of the good stuff has already come out.
The Tories - for their first two terms - had a much tighter cabinet, it did not really start unravelling until after the 1987 election.