I think all this and AVB defending Terry does is show just how important money is in football. The clubs will play lip service to anything as long as it doesn't cost them money. Ultimately, if Dalglish and AVB are silent or discipline their players, they will devalue an asset and that is all they care about. They are both going to look to turn this into a positive to galvanise the squads and have a siege mentality. Right and wrong is never really a consideration in football, not nowadays anyway.
Sigh. Read the post I made above. Whilst the literal translation of 'negrito' is 'little black', the real meaning of the word is 'little coon'. The Spanish language is nice and flexible in the way it often enables a word to take on the form of something smaller by adding 'ita' or 'ita' to the end of it (e.g. 'Senorita' is literally translated as 'little girl', 'Naranjito' is literally 'little orange' etc. etc.
I don't know how many times I can say this. To try and explain it in simple terms - the 'literal' translation of the word 'prick' in English is 'to make a small hole in something'. In common usage, it has become slang for a man's penis. Does that help explain it? Not really sure how much easier I can make this. Perhaps a languages teacher could put it into words that everyone can understand.
It seems that putting an E in is supposed to lose the argument. But Ok if you put everything capitals put loads of ! and make up other words. What a
On balance I'm inclined to agree with Leroy as being Spanish (or half-Spanish?) he clearly has the advantage of knowing what he's talking about and has perfectly explained the idiomatic use of that expression. But you are correct that using racist language doesn't necessarily make you a racist, but that is still no defence. I'm pretty sure Suarez intended to insult Evra but obviously didn't realise that Evra spoke or understood Spanish.
It's sad that Liverpool are supporting him - I can remember the abuse that John Barnes was on the receiving end when he was playing for Liverpool. Somewhere there's a classic photograph of him backheeling a banana that had just been thrown at him - doubtless by someone who also wasn't a racist...
It seems that putting an E in is supposed to lose the argument. But Ok if you put everything capitals put loads of ! and make up other words. What a
On balance I'm inclined to agree with Leroy as being Spanish (or half-Spanish?) he clearly has the advantage of knowing what he's talking about and has perfectly explained the idiomatic use of that expression. But you are correct that using racist language doesn't necessarily make you a racist, but that is still no defence. I'm pretty sure Suarez intended to insult Evra but obviously didn't realise that Evra spoke or understood Spanish.
It's sad that Liverpool are supporting him - I can remember the abuse that John Barnes was on the receiving end when he was playing for Liverpool. Somewhere there's a classic photograph of him backheeling a banana that had just been thrown at him - doubtless by someone who also wasn't a racist...
Interesting take that - I'm not sure what to make of this view. A few years ago I'd have laughed at the mere suggestion that using racist languiage didn't necessarily make you 'a racist'. However, I know plenty of people who I wouldn't necessarily consider 'racist' who use racist language. I still find it bizarre that anyone would consider it appropriate - even in jest - to call their mate 'Paki John', but one of my (ironically) Indian mates is regularly referred to as this to distinguish him from another mate, who's black. I still find that difficult to accept, but he doesn't seem to take offence at it - so whilst I'd never dream of calling him that (and would feel dirty doing so) I can't really be too precious about it!
None of which makes a blind bit of difference to the fact that Suarez used a term that he clearly knew (unless he is an utter, utter fucking idiot) was likely to cause offence to Evra simply to try and wind him up.
For those idiots who want to rely on a dodgy dictionary, why not go further and suggest that Suarez was, in his limited way, merely asking Evra if he would like to partake of a cup of coffee after the game??? Suarez was deliberately making an offensive comment in the hope that Evra would get wound up and foul him with the possibility of a card. (aterrazzi did something similar to Zidane in a World Cup final and it worked then.) Fortunately Evra didn't bite (pun intended) and Suarez got found out. Liverpool's on-field actions afterwards were pathetic and childish. If it was intended to fire up the team to go out and win it was an abject failure.
Totally irresponsible and immature response by a Club that I have often admired. Dalgleish was a great footballer, but if he wants to be regarded as a great man then he needs to behave like one. He should have ensured that the idea, whoever thought of it, should have been dismissed immediately.
"In all the circumstances, we preferred the evidence of Mr Evra. His account was clear and consistent in all material respects. There is no basis for saying that he lied or was mistaken in what he heard. We found that Mr Evra's account is probably what happened. The conversation was all in Spanish. The words which follow (below) were either Mr Evra's exact words or close approximations to them. Mr Evra said to Mr Suarez "Concha de tu hermana, porque me diste un golpe?", meaning "expletiveing hell, why did you kick me?". Mr Suarez replied "Porque tu eres negro", meaning "Because you're black". Mr Evra then said "Habla otra vez asi, te voy a dar una porrada", which means "Say it to me again, I'm going to kick you". Mr Suarez responded "No hablo con los negros", meaning "I don't speak to blacks". Mr Evra then said "Ahora te voy a dar realmente una porrada", meaning "Okay, now I think I'm going to punch you". Mr Suarez responded "Dale, negro, negro, negro", meaning "Okay, blackie, blackie, blackie.""
"In all the circumstances, we preferred the evidence of Mr Evra. His account was clear and consistent in all material respects. There is no basis for saying that he lied or was mistaken in what he heard. We found that Mr Evra's account is probably what happened. The conversation was all in Spanish. The words which follow (below) were either Mr Evra's exact words or close approximations to them. Mr Evra said to Mr Suarez "Concha de tu hermana, porque me diste un golpe?", meaning "expletiveing hell, why did you kick me?". Mr Suarez replied "Porque tu eres negro", meaning "Because you're black". Mr Evra then said "Habla otra vez asi, te voy a dar una porrada", which means "Say it to me again, I'm going to kick you". Mr Suarez responded "No hablo con los negros", meaning "I don't speak to blacks". Mr Evra then said "Ahora te voy a dar realmente una porrada", meaning "Okay, now I think I'm going to punch you". Mr Suarez responded "Dale, negro, negro, negro", meaning "Okay, blackie, blackie, blackie.""
Can someone explain how Evra can speak Spanish? As far as I can see he has only ever played in France and England, so, where does his Spanish come from?
He is of Senegalese descent and is apparently the son of a diplomat – perhaps they had a Latino posting somewhere and he learnt Spanish there?
"In all the circumstances, we preferred the evidence of Mr Evra. His account was clear and consistent in all material respects. There is no basis for saying that he lied or was mistaken in what he heard. We found that Mr Evra's account is probably what happened. The conversation was all in Spanish. The words which follow (below) were either Mr Evra's exact words or close approximations to them. Mr Evra said to Mr Suarez "Concha de tu hermana, porque me diste un golpe?", meaning "expletiveing hell, why did you kick me?". Mr Suarez replied "Porque tu eres negro", meaning "Because you're black". Mr Evra then said "Habla otra vez asi, te voy a dar una porrada", which means "Say it to me again, I'm going to kick you". Mr Suarez responded "No hablo con los negros", meaning "I don't speak to blacks". Mr Evra then said "Ahora te voy a dar realmente una porrada", meaning "Okay, now I think I'm going to punch you". Mr Suarez responded "Dale, negro, negro, negro", meaning "Okay, blackie, blackie, blackie.""
Can someone explain how Evra can speak Spanish? As far as I can see he has only ever played in France and England, so, where does his Spanish come from?
He is of Senegalese descent and is apparently the son of a diplomat – perhaps they had a Latino posting somewhere and he learnt Spanish there?
I would love to know the answer to this!
Never having lived in France I suppose my ability to speak French is nothing to do with school, but just mere chance.
I assume even Evra went to school as well, maybe he listened to his teachers?
The reason those words were used was because the Commission was applying the civil test of 'the balance of probabilities' see paras 31.1 and 76 et seq (rather than the criminal test of 'beyond a reasonable doubt'.)
For those muppets who sought to excuse what Suarez said based on a dodgy dictionary and no account from all the witnesses, it really does pay to wait and read the evidence before launching into some bizarre exculpation. This equally applies to those who seek to condemn (see eg the John Terry thread.)
I have great sympathy for the Commission in trying to decide not just what was said but what it meant. A perfect example is in paras 87 and 178. Bears out what Leroy said in an earlier post about 'a prick'. However having read the whole of this record, I think the Commission rightly found against Suarez but others will no doubt form their own views. Kuyt doesn't come out smelling too sweetly either.
"In all the circumstances, we preferred the evidence of Mr Evra. His account was clear and consistent in all material respects. There is no basis for saying that he lied or was mistaken in what he heard. We found that Mr Evra's account is probably what happened. The conversation was all in Spanish. The words which follow (below) were either Mr Evra's exact words or close approximations to them. Mr Evra said to Mr Suarez "Concha de tu hermana, porque me diste un golpe?", meaning "expletiveing hell, why did you kick me?". Mr Suarez replied "Porque tu eres negro", meaning "Because you're black". Mr Evra then said "Habla otra vez asi, te voy a dar una porrada", which means "Say it to me again, I'm going to kick you". Mr Suarez responded "No hablo con los negros", meaning "I don't speak to blacks". Mr Evra then said "Ahora te voy a dar realmente una porrada", meaning "Okay, now I think I'm going to punch you". Mr Suarez responded "Dale, negro, negro, negro", meaning "Okay, blackie, blackie, blackie.""
Can someone explain how Evra can speak Spanish? As far as I can see he has only ever played in France and England, so, where does his Spanish come from?
He is of Senegalese descent and is apparently the son of a diplomat – perhaps they had a Latino posting somewhere and he learnt Spanish there?
I would love to know the answer to this!
Never having lived in France I suppose my ability to speak French is nothing to do with school, but just mere chance.
I assume even Evra went to school as well, maybe he listened to his teachers?
I have no idea why you are being sarcastic in response to what is a genuine question.
The transcript of the conversation between Evra-Suarez suggests that Evra speaks more than passably good Spanish, certainly better than your average British holidaymaker or schoolchild.
My question, therefore, is where did he learn it? I speak near fluent French and have spent a lot of time in the country and from talking to my French friends they say that very few French schools teach Spanish as foreign languages, with English, for obvious reasons, being the dominant language in most curriculums – apart from areas near the Spanish border where more Spanish is taught.
I am not doubting Evra’s ability to speak Spanish to cast doubt on his allegations of racism at all, I am just curious to know where he picked up such good Spanish from given that he has never played or lived there and that few French schoolkids learn Spanish in school.
From an interview I heard whilst travelling to a charlton away fixture, middlesboro I believe , that's how pong ago there was a huge piece on man yoo as per normal on radio 5 live, they had the man yoo official supporters club chairman or the like of being interviewd about a book where man yoo legends had been released,
They had evra in this book and the fellow doing the interview was puzzled as to why , and it turned out that evra was a well schooled individual who researched many factors of man u and was well versed in many languages ,
He attended a supporters club function and knew absolutely every answer to every question thrown at him about the history of utd ,
They then spent the next few mins talking about evra and it turned out he is a bit of a scholar and very much not your typical footballer,
I have no idea why this interview has stuck in my mind but it has and I hopes it goes some way in to answering your question
Ormiston From an interview I heard whilst travelling to a charlton away fixture, middlesboro I believe , that's how pong ago there was a huge piece on man yoo as per normal on radio 5 live, they had the man yoo official supporters club chairman or the like of being interviewd about a book where man yoo legends had been released, They had evra in this book and the fellow doing the interview was puzzled as to why , and it turned out that evra was a well schooled individual who researched many factors of man u and was well versed in many languages , He attended a supporters club function and knew absolutely every answer to every question thrown at him about the history of utd , They then spent the next few mins talking about evra and it turned out he is a bit of a scholar and very much not your typical footballer, I have no idea why this interview has stuck in my mind but it has and I hopes it goes some way in to answering your question
Thanks NLA, I was really curious about this as most footballers can’t speak any other language other than their native tongue unless they actually have to learn it by playing abroad in Spain, Italy or wherever.
The Spanish Evra uses in his conversation with Suarez is pretty advanced, certainly way beyond your standard schoolkid/tourist stuff.
From what you are saying Evra does indeed appear to be something of a scholar, certainly in comparison to the vast majority of his peers!
No probs whenever I watch or hear patrice evras name mentioned my mind for a split second goes back to that interview, one of those useless fact moments,
In the transcript from the fa
It states he has a good comprehension of
English,French,senegalise,Spanish,Italian, Portuguese far from your run of the mill footballer in my opinion
Ormiston From an interview I heard whilst travelling to a charlton away fixture, middlesboro I believe , that's how pong ago there was a huge piece on man yoo as per normal on radio 5 live, they had the man yoo official supporters club chairman or the like of being interviewd about a book where man yoo legends had been released, They had evra in this book and the fellow doing the interview was puzzled as to why , and it turned out that evra was a well schooled individual who researched many factors of man u and was well versed in many languages , He attended a supporters club function and knew absolutely every answer to every question thrown at him about the history of utd , They then spent the next few mins talking about evra and it turned out he is a bit of a scholar and very much not your typical footballer, I have no idea why this interview has stuck in my mind but it has and I hopes it goes some way in to answering your question
Thanks NLA, I was really curious about this as most footballers can’t speak any other language other than their native tongue unless they actually have to learn it by playing abroad in Spain, Italy or wherever.
The Spanish Evra uses in his conversation with Suarez is pretty advanced, certainly way beyond your standard schoolkid/tourist stuff.
From what you are saying Evra does indeed appear to be something of a scholar, certainly in comparison to the vast majority of his peers!
Have just finished reading it all - I know, it's sad but I often have to read and interpret tribunal/court decisions for a living - and it's clear they done an extremely thorough job there. No doubt some Mickey's will bleat on about not getting "justice" and claim to be victimised, but I really can't see that myself.
Suarez's evidence was inconsistent and changed a number of times, whereas Evra's didn't, so you can see why, logically and based on all of the evidence presented to them, they reached the conclusion they did (although I don't really have a view on the penalty handed out as there really is no precedent for this sort of thing).
However, one thing that did strike me is that in a situation where you have a Uruguyan having a conversation in Spanish with a native French speaker from Sengal, with evidence given of conversations in Spanish, English, Portugese and Dutch - and throw in a bit of Welsh/Scots dialect - there is a hell of a lot of room for misinterpretation, so I don't envy the Commission (or the FA) that particular little job!
Wouldn't it be fantastic now for the FA to grow a set and fine Liverpool massively for bringing the game in disrepute? How a club can make a decision to let players make a statement like they did in support of a player who was subsequently found to have used racist language is stunning and looks foolish in the extreme in light of whats come out.
Lets hope they appeal and get another couple of games added on for their trouble.
I read it too, the one thing I find hard to understand is that they have taken the word of one person against the other with no real conclusive facts other than patrice evidence is deemed more reliable , you would've thought that someone would've heard something
I read it too, the one thing I find hard to understand is that they have taken the word of one person against the other with no real conclusive facts other than patrice evidence is deemed more reliable , you would've thought that someone would've heard something
I think if Suarez had denied saying anything at all he would have been better off.
However, he tried to play a differnet hand, going down the misinterpretation road and hung himself. He basically admitted saying those things.
NLA. it isn't just taking one person's word, it is looking at all the evidence. Suarez kept changing his story and it just didn't fit in with the available evidence including the videos. For his advocate to say that his statement was badly drafted was desperate and he must have cringed at trying to put that forward. He changed his story again after reading the expert's report so was trying to fit his version into the evidence as it emerged but the Commission simply went back to all the accounts he had given and, in effect, said he was telling porkies. Liverpool haven't done themselves any favours by putting forward such a piss-poor defence. The sentence does seem very harsh even without any precedents. I wouldn't be surprised if the appeal against sentence brings it down by half. As for Evra's linguistic skills, I must say I am always amazed at how fluent so many foreign players are in English. Far better than most of our own. I understand that Gabriel Obertan also speaks several languages - mind you he is pretty crap as a footballer
Comments
I don't know how many times I can say this. To try and explain it in simple terms - the 'literal' translation of the word 'prick' in English is 'to make a small hole in something'. In common usage, it has become slang for a man's penis. Does that help explain it? Not really sure how much easier I can make this. Perhaps a languages teacher could put it into words that everyone can understand.
On balance I'm inclined to agree with Leroy as being Spanish (or half-Spanish?) he clearly has the advantage of knowing what he's talking about and has perfectly explained the idiomatic use of that expression. But you are correct that using racist language doesn't necessarily make you a racist, but that is still no defence. I'm pretty sure Suarez intended to insult Evra but obviously didn't realise that Evra spoke or understood Spanish.
It's sad that Liverpool are supporting him - I can remember the abuse that John Barnes was on the receiving end when he was playing for Liverpool. Somewhere there's a classic photograph of him backheeling a banana that had just been thrown at him - doubtless by someone who also wasn't a racist...
None of which makes a blind bit of difference to the fact that Suarez used a term that he clearly knew (unless he is an utter, utter fucking idiot) was likely to cause offence to Evra simply to try and wind him up.
Suarez was deliberately making an offensive comment in the hope that Evra would get wound up and foul him with the possibility of a card. (aterrazzi did something similar to Zidane in a World Cup final and it worked then.) Fortunately Evra didn't bite (pun intended) and Suarez got found out. Liverpool's on-field actions afterwards were pathetic and childish. If it was intended to fire up the team to go out and win it was an abject failure.
Can someone explain how Evra can speak Spanish? As far as I can see he has only ever played in France and England, so, where does his Spanish come from?
He is of Senegalese descent and is apparently the son of a diplomat – perhaps they had a Latino posting somewhere and he learnt Spanish there?
I would love to know the answer to this!
Never having lived in France I suppose my ability to speak French is nothing to do with school, but just mere chance.
I assume even Evra went to school as well, maybe he listened to his teachers?
For those muppets who sought to excuse what Suarez said based on a dodgy dictionary and no account from all the witnesses, it really does pay to wait and read the evidence before launching into some bizarre exculpation. This equally applies to those who seek to condemn (see eg the John Terry thread.)
I have great sympathy for the Commission in trying to decide not just what was said but what it meant. A perfect example is in paras 87 and 178. Bears out what Leroy said in an earlier post about 'a prick'. However having read the whole of this record, I think the Commission rightly found against Suarez but others will no doubt form their own views. Kuyt doesn't come out smelling too sweetly either.
I have no idea why you are being sarcastic in response to what is a genuine question.
The transcript of the conversation between Evra-Suarez suggests that Evra speaks more than passably good Spanish, certainly better than your average British holidaymaker or schoolchild.
My question, therefore, is where did he learn it? I speak near fluent French and have spent a lot of time in the country and from talking to my French friends they say that very few French schools teach Spanish as foreign languages, with English, for obvious reasons, being the dominant language in most curriculums – apart from areas near the Spanish border where more Spanish is taught.
I am not doubting Evra’s ability to speak Spanish to cast doubt on his allegations of racism at all, I am just curious to know where he picked up such good Spanish from given that he has never played or lived there and that few French schoolkids learn Spanish in school.
From an interview I heard whilst travelling to a charlton away fixture, middlesboro I believe , that's how pong ago there was a huge piece on man yoo as per normal on radio 5 live, they had the man yoo official supporters club chairman or the like of being interviewd about a book where man yoo legends had been released,
They had evra in this book and the fellow doing the interview was puzzled as to why , and it turned out that evra was a well schooled individual who researched many factors of man u and was well versed in many languages ,
He attended a supporters club function and knew absolutely every answer to every question thrown at him about the history of utd ,
They then spent the next few mins talking about evra and it turned out he is a bit of a scholar and very much not your typical footballer,
I have no idea why this interview has stuck in my mind but it has and I hopes it goes some way in to answering your question
Thanks NLA, I was really curious about this as most footballers can’t speak any other language other than their native tongue unless they actually have to learn it by playing abroad in Spain, Italy or wherever.
The Spanish Evra uses in his conversation with Suarez is pretty advanced, certainly way beyond your standard schoolkid/tourist stuff.
From what you are saying Evra does indeed appear to be something of a scholar, certainly in comparison to the vast majority of his peers!
Cheers and Happy New Year.In the transcript from the fa
It states he has a good comprehension of
English,French,senegalise,Spanish,Italian, Portuguese far from your run of the mill footballer in my opinion
Lets hope they appeal and get another couple of games added on for their trouble.
against the other with no real conclusive facts other than patrice evidence is deemed more reliable , you would've thought that someone would've heard something
I think if Suarez had denied saying anything at all he would have been better off.
However, he tried to play a differnet hand, going down the misinterpretation road and hung himself. He basically admitted saying those things.
The sentence does seem very harsh even without any precedents. I wouldn't be surprised if the appeal against sentence brings it down by half.
As for Evra's linguistic skills, I must say I am always amazed at how fluent so many foreign players are in English. Far better than most of our own. I understand that Gabriel Obertan also speaks several languages - mind you he is pretty crap as a footballer