There was an interesting bit on the news the other day about Orient and the fact that the club(then Clapton Orient) joined up like a "pals battalion". There is a memorial to them and maybe a film coming out.
I visited the Irish memorial last year when we visited. Lost half their men from British artillery as they didn't stop once they broke through.
I think you went to the Ulster Tower, elements of the 36th Ulster Division did reach the 3rd German Line on 1st July 1916 whilst the troops assaulting the Thiepval Spur on their right and Ancre Heights on their left made no progress. A good number of their casualties were caused whilst crossing back to the start line in front of Thiepval Wood at the end of the day, I am fairly confident that the German counter bombardment was mostly responsible for their losses though there were a shocking amount of friendly fire incidents on such a confusing day. In this case the incident you refer to was the 36th Ulster Division guns firing on positions they did not realise were held by their own men.
My long held belief is the the main problem on the 1st July 1916 was that Kitcheners Artillery were not capable or experienced enough to fire a barrage of the complexity required to break through, they were also firing far too much shrapnel as opposed to High explosive, this proved innefectual against the deep German positions and did not have enough guns of a heavier calibre. A year latter the same gunners as Messines a year wiser and better equipped broke the line at Messines (along with more successful tunneling operations as both areas of the war had developed).
We often get carried away with soundbites in the media such as "men were ordered to walk into machine guns" this simply is not true and is not a view held in history circles, in fact the only unit ordered to run not walk across no-mans-land on the day were the London Scottish at Gommecourt, they lost direction and suffered almost 600 casualites, higher than if they had advanced in extended line.
The whole plan was based around the premis that Artillery will conquer and Infantry will occupy already destroyed positions, sadly the Artillery did not conquer, there was no flexibility to change the plan once underway (ie control over your guns at Divisional level) and the worst day in British military history was the result.
Yours truly, carrying the Royal British Legion Greenhithe Standard, at Menin Gate, Ypres (Leper) on Saturday. Very nervous, but very proud to do it. Also visited the Hill 62 museum, that place is amazing and they have some fantastic artefacts and, and in particular some fantastic and very graphic photos, well worth a visit.
Son is off to Belguim at the end of the month to visit trenches and memorials including one German.
Thanks Ben, Its incredible the amount of military cemetries there are out there, from all over the commonwealth (at the time), hope he gets a lot out of it.
Well done for remembering DA9, the Last Post Ceremony really is a special event, the crowds these days average 500 each night whereas only 15 years ago some nights the Buglers would be standing alone! When Lord Plumer of Messines attended the first ceremony back in July 1927 he said "They are not missing they are here" the service was the first ever live outside broadcast event by the BBC.
I sometimes think how bemused the veterans would be by the level of interest now in their war, such a shame they were nearly on gone by the time it started to become really popular with Brits to re-visit the old front line again in the mid 1990's
With regards to Hill 62, the graphic images in the wooden 3d viewers were originally part of the IWM's collection but were thrown out in the 1930's when the father of Jack at the Museum acquired them.
The Charlton 1947 Cup winning side visited the Menin Gate and Tynecot Cemetery when they were touring and playing Belgium sides, this would have been particularly moving for Jimmy Seed who served and had been wounded and Sam Bartram whose father was decorated for bravery and also wounded.
Well done for remembering DA9, the Last Post Ceremony really is a special event, the crowds these days average 500 each night whereas only 15 years ago some nights the Buglers would be standing alone! When Lord Plumer of Messines attended the first ceremony back in July 1927 he said "They are not missing they are here" the service was the first ever live outside broadcast event by the BBC.
I sometimes think how bemused the veterans would be by the level of interest now in their war, such a shame they were nearly on gone by the time it started to become really popular with Brits to re-visit the old front line again in the mid 1990's
With regards to Hill 62, the graphic images in the wooden 3d viewers were originally part of the IWM's collection but were thrown out in the 1930's when the father of Jack at the Museum acquired them.
The Charlton 1947 Cup winning side visited the Menin Gate and Tynecot Cemetery when they were touring and playing Belgium sides, this would have been particularly moving for Jimmy Seed who served and had been wounded and Sam Bartram whose father was decorated for bravery and also wounded.
Was quite touching when i was there two years ago, went to Flanders and saw the bunker where John McCrae wrote In Flanders Field, went to a Menin Gate Ceremony, Ypres, The Somme, Vimy Ridge, which being a Canadian was an honour, Passchaendale, Tynecot along with numerous other cemeteries. I did find the German cemeteries quite different to the commonwealth ones, with the iron crosses and all that.
Also if you guys have seen the movie "Joyeux Noel" about the Christmas Truce of 1914 its quite different to see a memorial in the middle of a field (Ploostgeirt) <--- Spelling---- As is it was season as treason so the commonwealth dont recognize it as a war grave.
Hi Scrappy, Firstly well done for taking the time to visit the old front line, sorry to be the "military history police" again but I hope don't mind me pointing out that the Christmas Truce Memorial to the north of Ploegsteert Wood commemorates not the actual Christmas truce but where Taff Gillingham and his Khaki Chums living history group recreated the event in 1996. It is not really a memorial at all, I know Taff very well and he confirms this.
The truce was a spontanious event that took place over a considerable front and certainly stretched down to south of Armentieres. Not all sectors were quiet as the 1/1 Hertfordshire Regiment had two soldiers killed by a German sniper on 25/12/14 Thomas Goode and Percy Huggins.
I am afraid whover told you that nonsense about the Commenwealth not recognising it was spinning a yarn to you. In fact its ts a bearfaced lie but not one I have heard before.
Your guide should have pointed out the nearby Petit Douve Farm on the road to Messines as you are Canadian, here the 7th (British Columbian) Btn C.E.F. launched a near perfect raid on the German held farm in June 1915.
They wore sandbags or balaclavas to intimidate the enemy and for quick recognition purposes (no mask/not a friend), they even had torches strapped to their Lee Enfield rifles modern day Swat style and suffered just one casualty among their ranks whilst entirely destroying a key German position and capturing prisoners. Every man who took part was given a weekend pass to Paris!
The John Mcrea site at Essex Farm is of interest, when John served there as a medical officer in 1915 the bunkers were not there, he lived in a wooden structure, the concrete ones were built and reflect a very modern advanced dressing station where you could triage casualties effectively and Essex Farm, the buildings opposite housed to Field Ambulance so you could move casualties back down the line to Poperinghe and larger medical facilities. In the bunkers can be found some fascintating graffiti from veterans who returned in the 1920's.
Sadly John's poem has been hijacked in recent years, I was lecturing at a military history conference in Kansas City earlier this year and the head of Ypres Tourism quoted verses 1&2 only; (I am on a train so doing this off my head so apologise for any mistakes)
In Flanders Fields the poppies blow, Amid the crosses row on row, that mark our place, And in the sky, the larks still bravely singing fly, scarce heard among the gune below.
We are the dead, short days ago, We lived and laughed, felt sunsets glow, We loved and were loved and now we lie in Flanders Fields
If he had continued with the third and final verse,
Take up our quarrel with the foe, To you with flailing hands we throw The torch, Be yours to hold up high, If ye break faith with us who die, We shall not sleep in Flanders Fields
Then is would have changed the whole context of the poem and not fit with his aggenda, a shame really but shows how guarded we have to be during the upcoming centenary years.
Hope you don't mind me offering up my piece, I haven't seen the film so can't comment but will look out for it,
Hi Scrappy, Firstly well done for taking the time to visit the old front line, sorry to be the "military history police" again but I hope don't mind me pointing out that the Christmas Truce Memorial to the north of Ploegsteert Wood commemorates not the actual Christmas truce but where Taff Gillingham and his Khaki Chums living history group recreated the event in 1996. It is not really a memorial at all, I know Taff very well and he confirms this.
The truce was a spontanious event that took place over a considerable front and certainly stretched down to south of Armentieres. Not all sectors were quiet as the 1/1 Hertfordshire Regiment had two soldiers killed by a German sniper on 25/12/14 Thomas Goode and Percy Huggins.
I am afraid whover told you that nonsense about the Commenwealth not recognising it was spinning a yarn to you. In fact its ts a bearfaced lie but not one I have heard before.
Your guide should have pointed out the nearby Petit Douve Farm on the road to Messines as you are Canadian, here the 7th (British Columbian) Btn C.E.F. launched a near perfect raid on the German held farm in June 1915.
They wore sandbags or balaclavas to intimidate the enemy and for quick recognition purposes (no mask/not a friend), they even had torches strapped to their Lee Enfield rifles modern day Swat style and suffered just one casualty among their ranks whilst entirely destroying a key German position and capturing prisoners. Every man who took part was given a weekend pass to Paris!
The John Mcrea site at Essex Farm is of interest, when John served there as a medical officer in 1915 the bunkers were not there, he lived in a wooden structure, the concrete ones were built and reflect a very modern advanced dressing station where you could triage casualties effectively and Essex Farm, the buildings opposite housed to Field Ambulance so you could move casualties back down the line to Poperinghe and larger medical facilities. In the bunkers can be found some fascintating graffiti from veterans who returned in the 1920's.
Sadly John's poem has been hijacked in recent years, I was lecturing at a military history conference in Kansas City earlier this year and the head of Ypres Tourism quoted verses 1&2 only; (I am on a train so doing this off my head so apologise for any mistakes)
In Flanders Fields the poppies blow, Amid the crosses row on row, that mark our place, And in the sky, the larks still bravely singing fly, scarce heard among the gune below.
We are the dead, short days ago, We lived and laughed, felt sunsets glow, We loved and were loved and now we lie in Flanders Fields
If he had continued with the third and final verse,
Take up our quarrel with the foe, To you with flailing hands we throw The torch, Be yours to hold up high, If ye break faith with us who die, We shall not sleep in Flanders Fields
Then is would have changed the whole context of the poem and not fit with his aggenda, a shame really but shows how guarded we have to be during the upcoming centenary years.
Hope you don't mind me offering up my piece, I haven't seen the film so can't comment but will look out for it,
Hi Scrappy, Firstly well done for taking the time to visit the old front line, sorry to be the "military history police" again but I hope don't mind me pointing out that the Christmas Truce Memorial to the north of Ploegsteert Wood commemorates not the actual Christmas truce but where Taff Gillingham and his Khaki Chums living history group recreated the event in 1996. It is not really a memorial at all, I know Taff very well and he confirms this.
The truce was a spontanious event that took place over a considerable front and certainly stretched down to south of Armentieres. Not all sectors were quiet as the 1/1 Hertfordshire Regiment had two soldiers killed by a German sniper on 25/12/14 Thomas Goode and Percy Huggins.
I am afraid whover told you that nonsense about the Commenwealth not recognising it was spinning a yarn to you. In fact its ts a bearfaced lie but not one I have heard before.
Your guide should have pointed out the nearby Petit Douve Farm on the road to Messines as you are Canadian, here the 7th (British Columbian) Btn C.E.F. launched a near perfect raid on the German held farm in June 1915.
They wore sandbags or balaclavas to intimidate the enemy and for quick recognition purposes (no mask/not a friend), they even had torches strapped to their Lee Enfield rifles modern day Swat style and suffered just one casualty among their ranks whilst entirely destroying a key German position and capturing prisoners. Every man who took part was given a weekend pass to Paris!
The John Mcrea site at Essex Farm is of interest, when John served there as a medical officer in 1915 the bunkers were not there, he lived in a wooden structure, the concrete ones were built and reflect a very modern advanced dressing station where you could triage casualties effectively and Essex Farm, the buildings opposite housed to Field Ambulance so you could move casualties back down the line to Poperinghe and larger medical facilities. In the bunkers can be found some fascintating graffiti from veterans who returned in the 1920's.
Sadly John's poem has been hijacked in recent years, I was lecturing at a military history conference in Kansas City earlier this year and the head of Ypres Tourism quoted verses 1&2 only; (I am on a train so doing this off my head so apologise for any mistakes)
In Flanders Fields the poppies blow, Amid the crosses row on row, that mark our place, And in the sky, the larks still bravely singing fly, scarce heard among the gune below.
We are the dead, short days ago, We lived and laughed, felt sunsets glow, We loved and were loved and now we lie in Flanders Fields
If he had continued with the third and final verse,
Take up our quarrel with the foe, To you with flailing hands we throw The torch, Be yours to hold up high, If ye break faith with us who die, We shall not sleep in Flanders Fields
Then is would have changed the whole context of the poem and not fit with his aggenda, a shame really but shows how guarded we have to be during the upcoming centenary years.
Hope you don't mind me offering up my piece, I haven't seen the film so can't comment but will look out for it,
No worries in pointing out my errors, i enjoy expanding my knowledge or lack there of from time to time.
I did know that there were many truces held on the front of Christmas that year, but i was under the belief that it was a treasoness act hense that there isn't a commonwealth memorial in the area? The little plack/information sign there was done by a group, probably your buddies as you stated but as a private contribution rather then one by the war graves commision.
I was informed at the time that the bunkers were "stand-ins" as the trenches had mostly erroded and as you said.
I agree with you, i dont understand why he wouldnt have completed the whole poem.
Hope your train ride went a bit quicker responding on the forum mate.
reading a great book about called "not Ordinary men" about the defence of Kohima(on the India /Burma border) it was our "spartan" moment sometimes called" the Japanese Stallingrade "----- 400 Allied troups against an attacking force some 15 times their number. The main allied force was our own Royal West Kent Regiment. Shame on me for never hearing of this before reading this book. Some of the other regiments involved the names are pure Raj------the 1/4 Rajputs----The Assam Rifles etc
great thread lads ...will be off to Ypres this summer to see where my grandfather was taken prisoner (apparently by a company of german soldiers containing a certain A Hitler)
Son is off to Belguim at the end of the month to visit trenches and memorials including one German.
My son went on one of these trips last month. If it's the same company, it's really well thought out and organised. Even the coaches have huge poppies painted on the side.
I was concerned at first that it's a very long day and that the kids might get bored and resentful at the end of it rather that appreciating others' sacrifices. I needn't have worried. He came back saying that the last post ceremony was very moving and that he'd never realised before how many people were involved. They also visited a museum where in the adjoining field there's trenches to see/explore - I think that gave a better understanding of the conditions that people lived, fought and died in.
The trip obviously sparked an interest, because whilst we were watching Saving Private Ryan the other night, he started telling us the differences between the American cemetry in the film and the British ones he'd visited.
The company Anglia Battlefield Tours are a very reputable schools tours operator, good history and sound logistical set up, I have no real connection with them as my company does not specialise in school groups but adult walking tours and miIitary units but would certainly rate them the highest from my perspective within the military history world.
Its worth checking if your guide holds the Guild of Battlefields Guides Badge, it is a mark of competence and the first legitimate trade qualification that was set up a few years ago, I only employ those who either have it or are published authors in the subject and actively working towards it. You can check out your guide here www.gbg-international.com
Some people may say its a load of rubbish, invariably because they are not in it, the Guild was an essential step forward as we are dealing with such an emotive subject that charlatan's (and I choose my words carefully) can set themselves up running tours, playing on emotions and sentiment and spout all sorts of rubbish, lots of it insulting to the memory of those who fought and fell.
I am glad your children found the subject so engaging Stig, the Great War especially is one that affected us all in some small way and one we are still struggling to come to terms with, there were almost 6 million men in service between 1914/18 of which 713,000 British service personnel never returned. We should always also remember that with 5 out of 6 returning home its a conflict that shapes and changes far more lives than it ends but I have banged on about that numerous times before.
If you haven't been then its a pilgrimage worth taking for anyone, lolwray, if you need any help with research following your Grandfather let me know, I have a fair bit on British prisoners.
The company Anglia Battlefield Tours are a very reputable schools tours operator, good history and sound logistical set up, I have no real connection with them as my company does not specialise in school groups but adult walking tours and miIitary units but would certainly rate them the highest from my perspective within the military history world.
Its worth checking if your guide holds the Guild of Battlefields Guides Badge, it is a mark of competence and the first legitimate trade qualification that was set up a few years ago, I only employ those who either have it or are published authors in the subject and actively working towards it. You can check out your guide here www.gbg-international.com
Some people may say its a load of rubbish, invariably because they are not in it, the Guild was an essential step forward as we are dealing with such an emotive subject that charlatan's (and I choose my words carefully) can set themselves up running tours, playing on emotions and sentiment and spout all sorts of rubbish, lots of it insulting to the memory of those who fought and fell.
I am glad your children found the subject so engaging Stig, the Great War especially is one that affected us all in some small way and one we are still struggling to come to terms with, there were almost 6 million men in service between 1914/18 of which 713,000 British service personnel never returned. We should always also remember that with 5 out of 6 returning home its a conflict that shapes and changes far more lives than it ends but I have banged on about that numerous times before.
If you haven't been then its a pilgrimage worth taking for anyone, lolwray, if you need any help with research following your Grandfather let me know, I have a fair bit on British prisoners.
They also visited a museum where in the adjoining field there's trenches to see/explore - I think that gave a better understanding of the conditions that people lived, fought and died in.
Sounds like the Hill 62 Museum, they have trenches (although admittedly not the original ones)
reading a great book about called "not Ordinary men" about the defence of Kohima(on the India /Burma border) it was our "spartan" moment sometimes called" the Japanese Stallingrade "----- 400 Allied troups against an attacking force some 15 times their number. The main allied force was our own Royal West Kent Regiment. Shame on me for never hearing of this before reading this book. Some of the other regiments involved the names are pure Raj------the 1/4 Rajputs----The Assam Rifles etc
No 1/4 was given and none was expected.
My father is involved in trying to relieve Kohima, some of his memoirs where horrific and he didn't really talk about it. Read a couple of books on this and just can't imagine what it was like, the description of the battle of the tennis court is chilling.
He visited Kohima and few other places with the Burma star association just a few years before he died, he was around 85 and he wanted to go and visit the memorial to his best mate who he had to (don't know the correct words) finish off after he a badly injured. It was his greatest regret, but they knew they couldn't leave wounded men behind. How such a gentle giant did this I have no idea. The trip back to burma really ended his life, it sapped the energy away from him, but he was so pleased that he went and unbelievable the Gerkhas who he fought with for 4 years (mostly behind the Japanese lines) walked for 2 to 3 days to meet there old comrades, not bad as their ages ranged from 95 downwards.
Burma is always a battlefield I have wanted to visit, the battle of Kohima that the RWKents were involved in was fought over the Governer Generals tennis courts and the CWGC have incorporated it into the cemetery today. I knew a couple of cracking vets from this battle now sadly passed on, I still have the personal diary of one,John Cane a Royal Engineer that is very descriptive, he also gave me his medals which I treasure with my family ones.
I hope to visit next year, the country is opening up and we have been asked to arrange a battlefield tour/staff ride for 2 Infantry Div Signal Regiment based in Kohima Barracks, York for 2014 so heres hoping.
As others have pointed out, D-Day tomorrow, will no doubt capture the headlines as it should but lets not forget that Rome fell 69 years ago today so heres to the Italy Star men as well, Nancy Astor infamously called the D-Day dodgers but they slogged their way up through Italy. Lest we forget lads
For a fictional but highly graphic account of the Burma campaign, A Soldier Erect (part of the Horatio Stubbs trilogy) by Brian Aldiss is well worth a read.
No. He was in the royal engineers and i believe worked alongside or was part of the royal west kents, and was an expert on explosives, before his posting he was a demolition teacher on Salisbury plain, he was that good he blow himself up. We never did find out what he did behind the Japanese lines other than they made a nuisance of themselves, often there for 6 months or more. It was a small band who blow things up and disrupted the supply routes. They would set off with as much food as they could carry and the forage and eat there mules.
Sorry had to depart for work, so if you dont mind i will continue.
He felt the chindits where a bunch of glory boys, when we talked more he felt that 2 many good man where lost, and he thought the smaller trips behinnd lines like he undertook where more successful. He also talked a lot about the Gerkas and how they went out with them on patrol, the way they where used always surprised me, whilst i knew of their legendary fighting skills, apparently they where a liability if they had to defend (they didnt understand the meaning of the word) and they only knew how to attack, therefore if they knew they where going to be attached the Gerka where allowed to disperse into the jungle and do there own thing and the brits defended. If they where attacking then the Gerkas went in first. When never was happening and it was all peacefull the Gerkas where allowed to go off head hunting (they got a bonus for every head they brought back).
The fighting was always fierce and more often than not hand to hand, he told me many nights they fought back to back with their comrades and hand to hand with the japanese, he in fact had a scar of on his thigh where a bayonet had pinned him to tree, and he still kept fighting, as he said he didnt have any option. His hatred for the Japanese race was total until the day he died and he wouldnt allow anything Japanese in his house, he stated that from the day of the breakout from Burma his troop (mixture of Gerkas and Austrialians) xdidnt take a single prisoner. In the end he admitted they where as inhuman as the japanese where, although they did respect the injured.
All this was happening whilst my mother was at home in Dartford suffering from the blitz, doodlebugs, getting strifed by a german fighter whilst working down vickers at powder mill lane, oh and giving birth to my brother, who didnt see his father until he was nearly 5. i just cant imagine how they coped. Brave men, most of whom are in an unmarked grave in a jungle.
The book mentioned above isnt easy to read as its full of troup movements etc , but the mountains,full jungle,sheer drops,tenches and full monsoon. Let alone little food, hand to hand fighting (daily),the heat, smell etc. It must have been horrific. The targeting of hospital areas for bombardment and the beheading of wounded and prisoners by the Japanese, you can feel the hate building up and we gave no 1/4 in return.
The book mentioned above isnt easy to read as its full of troup movements etc , but the mountains,full jungle,sheer drops,tenches and full monsoon. Let alone little food, hand to hand fighting (daily),the heat, smell etc. It must have been horrific. The targeting of hospital areas for bombardment and the beheading of wounded and prisoners by the Japanese, you can feel the hate building up and we gave no 1/4 in return.
No most books are not an easy read as you say, and if they are not covering troop movements they are dealing with the political in fighting between london and the generals or Britain and America.
Comments
The Newfoundland memorial site was amazing
Also visited the Hill 62 museum, that place is amazing and they have some fantastic artefacts and, and in particular some fantastic and very graphic photos, well worth a visit.
Son is off to Belguim at the end of the month to visit trenches and memorials including one German.
I sometimes think how bemused the veterans would be by the level of interest now in their war, such a shame they were nearly on gone by the time it started to become really popular with Brits to re-visit the old front line again in the mid 1990's
With regards to Hill 62, the graphic images in the wooden 3d viewers were originally part of the IWM's collection but were thrown out in the 1930's when the father of Jack at the Museum acquired them.
The Charlton 1947 Cup winning side visited the Menin Gate and Tynecot Cemetery when they were touring and playing Belgium sides, this would have been particularly moving for Jimmy Seed who served and had been wounded and Sam Bartram whose father was decorated for bravery and also wounded.
That's the number of names on the Menin Gate before you even start thinking about the cemeteries and other theatres like The Somme.
Truly humbling.
Also if you guys have seen the movie "Joyeux Noel" about the Christmas Truce of 1914 its quite different to see a memorial in the middle of a field (Ploostgeirt) <--- Spelling---- As is it was season as treason so the commonwealth dont recognize it as a war grave.
Firstly well done for taking the time to visit the old front line,
sorry to be the "military history police" again but I hope don't mind me pointing out that the Christmas Truce Memorial to the north of Ploegsteert Wood commemorates not the actual Christmas truce but where Taff Gillingham and his Khaki Chums living history group recreated the event in 1996. It is not really a memorial at all, I know Taff very well and he confirms this.
The truce was a spontanious event that took place over a considerable front and certainly stretched down to south of Armentieres. Not all sectors were quiet as the 1/1 Hertfordshire Regiment had two soldiers killed by a German sniper on 25/12/14 Thomas Goode and Percy Huggins.
I am afraid whover told you that nonsense about the Commenwealth not recognising it was spinning a yarn to you. In fact its ts a bearfaced lie but not one I have heard before.
Your guide should have pointed out the nearby Petit Douve Farm on the road to Messines as you are Canadian, here the 7th (British Columbian) Btn C.E.F. launched a near perfect raid on the German held farm in June 1915.
They wore sandbags or balaclavas to intimidate the enemy and for quick recognition purposes (no mask/not a friend), they even had torches strapped to their Lee Enfield rifles modern day Swat style and suffered just one casualty among their ranks whilst entirely destroying a key German position and capturing prisoners. Every man who took part was given a weekend pass to Paris!
The John Mcrea site at Essex Farm is of interest, when John served there as a medical officer in 1915 the bunkers were not there, he lived in a wooden structure, the concrete ones were built and reflect a very modern advanced dressing station where you could triage casualties effectively and Essex Farm, the buildings opposite housed to Field Ambulance so you could move casualties back down the line to Poperinghe and larger medical facilities. In the bunkers can be found some fascintating graffiti from veterans who returned in the 1920's.
Sadly John's poem has been hijacked in recent years, I was lecturing at a military history conference in Kansas City earlier this year and the head of Ypres Tourism quoted verses 1&2 only;
(I am on a train so doing this off my head so apologise for any mistakes)
In Flanders Fields the poppies blow,
Amid the crosses row on row, that mark our place,
And in the sky, the larks still bravely singing fly, scarce heard among the gune below.
We are the dead, short days ago,
We lived and laughed, felt sunsets glow,
We loved and were loved and now we lie in Flanders Fields
If he had continued with the third and final verse,
Take up our quarrel with the foe,
To you with flailing hands we throw
The torch,
Be yours to hold up high,
If ye break faith with us who die,
We shall not sleep in Flanders Fields
Then is would have changed the whole context of the poem and not fit with his aggenda, a shame really but shows how guarded we have to be during the upcoming centenary years.
Hope you don't mind me offering up my piece, I haven't seen the film so can't comment but will look out for it,
No worries in pointing out my errors, i enjoy expanding my knowledge or lack there of from time to time.
I did know that there were many truces held on the front of Christmas that year, but i was under the belief that it was a treasoness act hense that there isn't a commonwealth memorial in the area? The little plack/information sign there was done by a group, probably your buddies as you stated but as a private contribution rather then one by the war graves commision.
I was informed at the time that the bunkers were "stand-ins" as the trenches had mostly erroded and as you said.
I agree with you, i dont understand why he wouldnt have completed the whole poem.
Hope your train ride went a bit quicker responding on the forum mate.
The main allied force was our own Royal West Kent Regiment.
Shame on me for never hearing of this before reading this book.
Some of the other regiments involved the names are pure Raj------the 1/4 Rajputs----The Assam Rifles etc
No 1/4 was given and none was expected.
I was concerned at first that it's a very long day and that the kids might get bored and resentful at the end of it rather that appreciating others' sacrifices. I needn't have worried. He came back saying that the last post ceremony was very moving and that he'd never realised before how many people were involved. They also visited a museum where in the adjoining field there's trenches to see/explore - I think that gave a better understanding of the conditions that people lived, fought and died in.
The trip obviously sparked an interest, because whilst we were watching Saving Private Ryan the other night, he started telling us the differences between the American cemetry in the film and the British ones he'd visited.
Its worth checking if your guide holds the Guild of Battlefields Guides Badge, it is a mark of competence and the first legitimate trade qualification that was set up a few years ago, I only employ those who either have it or are published authors in the subject and actively working towards it. You can check out your guide here www.gbg-international.com
Some people may say its a load of rubbish, invariably because they are not in it, the Guild was an essential step forward as we are dealing with such an emotive subject that charlatan's (and I choose my words carefully) can set themselves up running tours, playing on emotions and sentiment and spout all sorts of rubbish, lots of it insulting to the memory of those who fought and fell.
I am glad your children found the subject so engaging Stig, the Great War especially is one that affected us all in some small way and one we are still struggling to come to terms with, there were almost 6 million men in service between 1914/18 of which 713,000 British service personnel never returned. We should always also remember that with 5 out of 6 returning home its a conflict that shapes and changes far more lives than it ends but I have banged on about that numerous times before.
If you haven't been then its a pilgrimage worth taking for anyone, lolwray, if you need any help with research following your Grandfather let me know, I have a fair bit on British prisoners.
And a reminder for all its D Day tomorrow probably the most important day in modern history, certainly of WW 2!
He visited Kohima and few other places with the Burma star association just a few years before he died, he was around 85 and he wanted to go and visit the memorial to his best mate who he had to (don't know the correct words) finish off after he a badly injured. It was his greatest regret, but they knew they couldn't leave wounded men behind. How such a gentle giant did this I have no idea. The trip back to burma really ended his life, it sapped the energy away from him, but he was so pleased that he went and unbelievable the Gerkhas who he fought with for 4 years (mostly behind the Japanese lines) walked for 2 to 3 days to meet there old comrades, not bad as their ages ranged from 95 downwards.
Brave men where the forgotten army.
I hope to visit next year, the country is opening up and we have been asked to arrange a battlefield tour/staff ride for 2 Infantry Div Signal Regiment based in Kohima Barracks, York for 2014 so heres hoping.
As others have pointed out, D-Day tomorrow, will no doubt capture the headlines as it should but lets not forget that Rome fell 69 years ago today so heres to the Italy Star men as well, Nancy Astor infamously called the D-Day dodgers but they slogged their way up through Italy. Lest we forget lads
Sorry had to depart for work, so if you dont mind i will continue.
He felt the chindits where a bunch of glory boys, when we talked more he felt that 2 many good man where lost, and he thought the smaller trips behinnd lines like he undertook where more successful. He also talked a lot about the Gerkas and how they went out with them on patrol, the way they where used always surprised me, whilst i knew of their legendary fighting skills, apparently they where a liability if they had to defend (they didnt understand the meaning of the word) and they only knew how to attack, therefore if they knew they where going to be attached the Gerka where allowed to disperse into the jungle and do there own thing and the brits defended. If they where attacking then the Gerkas went in first. When never was happening and it was all peacefull the Gerkas where allowed to go off head hunting (they got a bonus for every head they brought back).
The fighting was always fierce and more often than not hand to hand, he told me many nights they fought back to back with their comrades and hand to hand with the japanese, he in fact had a scar of on his thigh where a bayonet had pinned him to tree, and he still kept fighting, as he said he didnt have any option. His hatred for the Japanese race was total until the day he died and he wouldnt allow anything Japanese in his house, he stated that from the day of the breakout from Burma his troop (mixture of Gerkas and Austrialians) xdidnt take a single prisoner. In the end he admitted they where as inhuman as the japanese where, although they did respect the injured.
All this was happening whilst my mother was at home in Dartford suffering from the blitz, doodlebugs, getting strifed by a german fighter whilst working down vickers at powder mill lane, oh and giving birth to my brother, who didnt see his father until he was nearly 5. i just cant imagine how they coped. Brave men, most of whom are in an unmarked grave in a jungle.