It's what happens when you get rid of all your quality players. Many of them were dismissed as being crap players by our knowledgable fanbase, when actually what they really lacked was a good manager that knew how to get the best out of them, very often by simply playing them in their best positions. Players like Thomas, Ambrose, Lisbie, Bothroyd, Scott Sinclair etc etc took some terrible stick but have gone on to prove that they are a class above what we are now left with. Parky wasn't blameless by a long shot when you look at the quality that passed through his hands on the way down. The most high profile being Jonjo who he couldn't find a place for in his team that was dreadfully lacking in creativity. We have a little quality left in Daily, Semedo, Waggy, Solly, Jenkinson but not enough and it's very hard for those guys to carry the rest every week, especially as most of them are inexperienced and not even playing most of the time.
[cite]Posted By: queensland_addick[/cite]It's what happens when you get rid of all your quality players. Many of them were dismissed as being crap players by our knowledgable fanbase, when actually what they really lacked was a good manager that knew how to get the best out of them, very often by simply playing them in their best positions. Players like Thomas, Ambrose, Lisbie, Bothroyd, Scott Sinclair etc etc took some terrible stick but have gone on to prove that they are a class above what we are now left with.
Parky wasn't blameless by a long shot when you look at the quality that passed through his hands on the way down. The most high profile being Jonjo who he couldn't find a place for in his team that was dreadfully lacking in creativity.
We have a little quality left in Daily, Semedo, Waggy, Solly, Jenkinson but not enough and it's very hard for those guys to carry the rest every week, especially as most of them are inexperienced and not even playing most of the time.
With a lot of those players the problem was the balance of the squad and team. We got relegated from the Prem and instead of Pardew building a solid Championship team, we had several attacking midfielders with no room for them all. He still tried to fit them in any way, and then went out and signed more, such as Lee Cook and Scott Sinclair (with only Reid going).
There's a room for players like Ambrose in a good Championship team, but not alongside (for example) Sam and Zheng, with Semedo or Holland expected to do almost all the defending.
Someone asked me the other day how Charlton were doing these days. The only answer I could think of was that we have become very comfortable in league one. We are now basically a mid-table league one team and if we win promotion in the next few years we will remain a league one side and go straight back again. My only consolation was that he is a fan of a Blue Square South team....
I think we have more than a little quality - I think Anyinsah, BWP, Eccleston, Semedo are miles above the League average and Reid, Racon, Dailly, Doherty, Francis, Waggy, JJ are well above the average -Doc and Dailly probably couldn't cut it in the Championship (lack of pace in Docs case and age in Dailly's) but I think the others could. That's 9 clear Championship standard players . We have a smattering of average players and some good young ones who we need to see more of but their is definitely something to build on. The problem in this league is that you have to compete - teams give everything (especially against us) and what they lack in quality they seek to make up for with effort and organisation.
Parky and Powell have been struggling to get the most out of the potential we have. For me the answer has always been in the attacking threat you carry at this level. That means getting past defenders who double up and try to deprive you of space. This can be overcome through slick passing and movement which I think we can improve on. I think Parky didn't have as strong an attack overall as Powell has at his disposal. It was perhaps understandable that Parky sought to be more cautious. I think Powell is striving for a team that will go out and beat teams without caring to stop them and I don't think he is too far away. I'd like to see an attacking left back - Bessone may be the answer but players playing out of position, no matter how good a job they do are not so this is a priority - we can cover the other defensive positions effectively. I'd also like to see a creative midfielder - Semedo does his job week in week out - McCormack works hard but lacks quality and Racon shows glimpses of his former self but we need an option -somebody like Bostock could be ideal. Up front, I'm very happy - You get suppply to these players and they'll get the goals we need. The more games Anyinsah, BWP and Ecclestone play together, the more effective they will be - I really hope Powell keeps his nerve and perserveres with this 3 man attack.
[cite]Posted By: Mendonca In Asdas[/cite]Some excellent posts on this thread , does anyone high up the food chain at Charlton ever get to read this stuff?
I agree with Afka and Ooh Aah totally regarding this tinpot league and your post does more to highlight the fact that we really need to get out of it asap. It does surprise me using the 'on paper' argument that with the players we have -which lets face it are in the main more than good enough for this league-that we are not in the top two or at least more dominant of the league than we have been over the 2 seasons we have been in it.
Obviously smaller clubs see us as a scalp and that has it's effects but some other sides seem able to do the basics against us like retaining possession, pass accurately and battle their collective boots off,something which collectively all our players have well within their grasp but don't always show enough of. 4 wins 3 defeats could easily be 7 wins or 7 defeats such are the small margins in League 1. We need to add some real steel for the run in.
[cite]Posted By: MuttleyCAFC[/cite]I think we have more than a little quality - I think Anyinsah, BWP, Eccleston, Semedo are miles above the League average and Reid, Racon, Dailly, Doherty, Francis, Waggy, JJ are well above the average
I can't see how the first four are miles above the league average. Good players but there are plenty in this league that are at a similar level at Brighton, Southampton, Huddersfield etc and the stand out players at the mid table clubs.
Anyinsah has played most of his career at this level. Good player but I get the feeling he looked brilliant at first because he was very different to what we had. Not looked as good in the last few months. Eccleston has his moments but I've not yet watched him and thought he's stood out as a level or two above this league.
BWP is one of the best goalscorers in this division so that's fair enough, though I've not seen much else to his game. Semedo again fair enough he does his job well almost every game, can sometimes look very good. Can also look very average, but to be fair he'll probably look good with better attacking midfielders around him.
Others are good or decent players for the top 6 but the other top half clubs all have their own players that do similar jobs.
The team that won promotion in 99/00 had players miles above the league we were in. Kinsella, Stuart, Robinson, Rufus, Kiely etc could all do a very good job in the Prem. I'd expect a struggle if we had this squad in the Championship without several good signings.
[cite]Posted By: MuttleyCAFC[/cite]I think we have more than a little quality - I think Anyinsah, BWP, Eccleston, Semedo are miles above the League average and Reid, Racon, Dailly, Doherty, Francis, Waggy, JJ are well above the average
I can't see how the first four aremilesabove the league average. Good players but there are plenty in this league that are at a similar level at Brighton, Southampton, Huddersfield etc and the stand out players at the mid table clubs.
Anyinsah has played most of his career at this level. Good player but I get the feeling he looked brilliant at first because he was very different to what we had. Not looked as good in the last few months. Eccleston has his moments but I've not yet watched him and thought he's stood out as a level or two above this league.
BWP is one of the best goalscorers in this division so that's fair enough, though I've not seen much else to his game. Semedo again fair enough he does his job well almost every game, can sometimes look very good. Can also look very average, but to be fair he'll probably look good with better attacking midfielders around him.
Others are good or decent players for the top 6 but the other top half clubs all have their own players that do similar jobs.
The team that won promotion in 99/00 had players miles above the league we were in. Kinsella, Stuart, Robinson, Rufus, Kiely etc could all do a very good job in the Prem. I'd expect a struggle if we had this squad in the Championship without several good signings.
Well Brighton, Southampton and Huddersfield also have players miles better than League 1. But most of the other teams don't or don't have so many. We are slipping up against these teams so my post was written in this context. I stand by my statement in terms of the relative ability of the four I mentioned. I really like Anyinsah and he would be the first player on my team sheet - injuries have hampered him but he has all the attributes IMO -He would unsettle defenders in the Championship - I am sure. You can see Ecclestone has a bit of class when he plays -certainly above the divsion. Semedo - well I think he is a terrific player who could play much higher- just needs the right player next to him. BWP is one of the best goalscorers in the Division, as you have said.
Garry Nelson had something on that topic in LFF. Something along the lines of the average 3rd or 4th division player would run rings around any player from a good standard amateur side, which I guess is the view you'd expect him to take.
My firm's north v south 6 a side tournament had Danny Mills playing as a preposterous ringer for the north last year, and even after retiring and only playing in 2nd gear, he was playing absolutely a different game to teh rest of us in terms of vision, accuracy and speed of thought. You'll appreciate just how surreal the words 'Danny Mills' and 'speed of thought' were in the same sentence.
[cite]Posted By: JVL[/cite]Garry Nelson had something on that topic in LFF. Something along the lines of the average 3rd or 4th division player would run rings around any player from a good standard amateur side, which I guess is the view you'd expect him to take.
My firm's north v south 6 a side tournament had Danny Mills playing as a preposterous ringer for the north last year, and even after retiring and only playing in 2nd gear, he was playing absolutely a different game to teh rest of us in terms of vision, accuracy and speed of thought. You'll appreciate just how surreal the words 'Danny Mills' and 'speed of thought' were in the same sentence.
Have to agree with this - since living in Bexley we've somehow contrived to have two neighbours who had sons with aspirations of playing professional football - in both cases they didn't go on to have glittering careers - last I heard one of them was working as a player/coach at Welling (he's left there now) and the other one was dropped by Fulham and is now playing for a non-league side with dreams of being discovered again. Now, both these guys were spotted at about 7 years of age and their dads told me that almost all of the other "chosen" kids they were playing with at 7 had dropped out by the time they were 14 - it's extremely tough to make it in football and only the best make it.
I don't think it's a depressing league but it's depressing that Charlton are in it. I don't think it's an exaggeration to say that come the end of this season we need an absolutely phenomenal in terms of numbers players that need replacing if we are to make a go of it next season. I am assuming that both Powell and Slater know this and are just biding their time until the right players are available in the Summer. I don't subscribe to the view that this can be achieved without spending a serious (for this division) amount of money. I live in hope.
[cite]Posted By: Dazzler21[/cite]leeds took a couple of years to get it right
Good point, so did Forest (they only scrapped up in 2008) and Sheff Wednesday the first time they went down to L1.
I hate this league, but we are here for a reason and may be here for a while. There are some good players but there are also some very limited players who seem so far short in terms of ability compared to the players we have had before. I personally think we will struggle to go up with some of the players we have and continue to pick (McOxo, Doc ), not writing this season off as we have some winnable (on paper) games coming up at home and anything can happen. Remember feeling this way after Milwall and Gills last season in March yet after that we put on a good run and missed out narrowly on autos.
Not sure the exact answer, Saints have spent well and got one of the best managers in the league imho yet may only be in the PO's whilst Sheff Wednesday are closer to the relegation zone with perhaps a better set of players than we have.
Have enjoyed reading these posts :-) I would just add that at even at the 3rd tier level the players we watch are significantly technically superior to non league and amateur players. It is extremely difficult to get to this level and plenty aspire but do not make it. Hard at times to believe in matches we watch when a shot hits the corner flag, but it is true. In all the talented kids at age 11 I have watched and coached in getting on for 20 years there has only been 1 who MAY now become a professional player ( and his progress was nothing to do with me, I only got to watch him play) Maybe at the moment the key question is not has our team got championship quality in it but have we got players who can get us INTO the championship and out of this league? They can clearly compete at this level, it is consistency that seems to be the main ingredient to climb up this league.
[cite]Posted By: MuttleyCAFC[/cite]Well Brighton, Southampton and Huddersfield also have players miles better than League 1. But most of the other teams don't or don't have so many. We are slipping up against these teams so my post was written in this context. I stand by my statement in terms of the relative ability of the four I mentioned. I really like Anyinsah and he would be the first player on my team sheet - injuries have hampered him but he has all the attributes IMO -He would unsettle defenders in the Championship - I am sure. You can see Ecclestone has a bit of class when he plays -certainly above the divsion. Semedo - well I think he is a terrific player who could play much higher- just needs the right player next to him. BWP is one of the best goalscorers in the Division, as you have said.
Depends what you mean by "miles better than League 1". If I considered one of our players to be that good, I'd expect it to be obvious and stand out regularly. A lot of our players have very good games here and there, but surely you judge them over the season. If they look very average half the time in this league then they surely aren't Championship quality.
I'm sure Anyinsah would unsettle defenders in the Championship, he's strong, quick and decent on the ball. I wouldn't consider him (or any of our players in fact) to be too good for League 1.
I agree Semedo could play at a higher level with the right players next to him, though probably only in a 3 man central midfield.
As I said we've had players too good for the league we were in before, when we won the league in 99/00. There was a clear difference in their performances compared to our supposed Championship players. If you have 7/8 Championship players you'd get more than the very occasional comfortable and convincing win wouldn't you? We have to really battle our way through games, mainly because we're nothing more than a top 6 side at best IMO.
[quote][cite]Posted By: Dazzler21[/cite]leeds took a couple of years to get it right[/quote]
Leeds took 3 seasons to get out of this division , we've only been in it 2 seasons ( Although Norwich only took 1 season) have a push now , but major overhaul in the summer.
I think a lot depends on the proportion of quality players that you have in the team. If for example you have 7 quality outfield players, those 7 can very often carry the other 3 average players. Then, the other 3 not only look better but actually start to improve themselves as well. When you only have 2 or 3 quality players in the team, as we do at the moment, those quality players very often get dragged down by the 7 or 8 average players surrounding them. Things will only start to improve when we increase the proportion of quality players up to the 7 or 8 mark.
This is why I got so angry when other fans were saying it was good business to cash in on this player or offload that player to save on his wages etc to the point where all the quality was gone. It sent us on a death spiral from which we'll be very lucky to recover from.
Interesting thread: It's only a 'pub league' in comparison to the Championship and Premier If you want a 'pub league' then have a look lower down in the pyramid - and our A-League over here in OZ is real pub like Yes, quality is needed to get out of this League, but as much as that you need teamwork, camaraderie and balls.....this is where the coaching staff come in.......not too much of the aforementioned qualities on show against a poor Notts County team
I'm not sure that the players are the reason for why things are so bad. Many times in the Championship we got turned over by newly promoted teams who had a worse player in every position than us, Bristol city for one. We need to get them playing as a unit and covering each other to prevent the stupid goals we're conceding. That said a new full back and goalkeeper would make things easier!
Seems like the penny is finally dropping with a few of you that you're not as good as you thought you were and it takes a time for a team & the fans to accept it, work out what works best in this league and then push on back out of it.
[cite]Posted By: Friend Or Defoe[/cite]Many times in the Championship we got turned over by newly promoted teams who had a worse player in every position than us, Bristol city for one.
Did they though? Or is it like in this league in that we've just never heard of most of their players?
Last season I'm not sure any of us had heard of Anyinsah. Now he's considered one of our better players. That would suggest he was probably by far Carlisle's best player last season, but if you ask their fans I doubt they'd say he was a level above the rest.
[cite]Posted By: Friend Or Defoe[/cite]Many times in the Championship we got turned over by newly promoted teams who had a worse player in every position than us, Bristol city for one.
Did they though? Or is it like in this league in that we've just never heard of most of their players?
[cite]Posted By: Friend Or Defoe[/cite]Many times in the Championship we got turned over by newly promoted teams who had a worse player in every position than us, Bristol city for one.
Did they though? Or is it like in this league in that we've just never heard of most of their players?
Last season I'm not sure any of us had heard of Anyinsah. Now he's considered one of our better players. That would suggest he was probably by far Carlisle's best player last season, but if you ask their fans I doubt they'd say he was a level above the rest.
I think there is a lot in that theory that we don't (didn't!) know the players.
I can't understand why every team that visits The Valley appears to have more determination and desire than our players in that they win far more second balls than we do, as recently exemplified by Exeter, yet I cannot seriously accuse one of our present set of players, except Racon at times, of a lack of effort and commitment.
Comments
bang on rothko
to call it a pub leage is bit OTT i doubt any of u could hold your own against even the worse teams in this league
Parky wasn't blameless by a long shot when you look at the quality that passed through his hands on the way down. The most high profile being Jonjo who he couldn't find a place for in his team that was dreadfully lacking in creativity.
We have a little quality left in Daily, Semedo, Waggy, Solly, Jenkinson but not enough and it's very hard for those guys to carry the rest every week, especially as most of them are inexperienced and not even playing most of the time.
There's a room for players like Ambrose in a good Championship team, but not alongside (for example) Sam and Zheng, with Semedo or Holland expected to do almost all the defending.
We are now basically a mid-table league one team and if we win promotion in the next few years we will remain a league one side and go straight back again.
My only consolation was that he is a fan of a Blue Square South team....
Parky and Powell have been struggling to get the most out of the potential we have. For me the answer has always been in the attacking threat you carry at this level. That means getting past defenders who double up and try to deprive you of space. This can be overcome through slick passing and movement which I think we can improve on. I think Parky didn't have as strong an attack overall as Powell has at his disposal. It was perhaps understandable that Parky sought to be more cautious. I think Powell is striving for a team that will go out and beat teams without caring to stop them and I don't think he is too far away. I'd like to see an attacking left back - Bessone may be the answer but players playing out of position, no matter how good a job they do are not so this is a priority - we can cover the other defensive positions effectively. I'd also like to see a creative midfielder - Semedo does his job week in week out - McCormack works hard but lacks quality and Racon shows glimpses of his former self but we need an option -somebody like Bostock could be ideal. Up front, I'm very happy - You get suppply to these players and they'll get the goals we need. The more games Anyinsah, BWP and Ecclestone play together, the more effective they will be - I really hope Powell keeps his nerve and perserveres with this 3 man attack.
I read it.
Obviously smaller clubs see us as a scalp and that has it's effects but some other sides seem able to do the basics against us like retaining possession, pass accurately and battle their collective boots off,something which collectively all our players have well within their grasp but don't always show enough of. 4 wins 3 defeats could easily be 7 wins or 7 defeats such are the small margins in League 1. We need to add some real steel for the run in.
Anyinsah has played most of his career at this level. Good player but I get the feeling he looked brilliant at first because he was very different to what we had. Not looked as good in the last few months. Eccleston has his moments but I've not yet watched him and thought he's stood out as a level or two above this league.
BWP is one of the best goalscorers in this division so that's fair enough, though I've not seen much else to his game. Semedo again fair enough he does his job well almost every game, can sometimes look very good. Can also look very average, but to be fair he'll probably look good with better attacking midfielders around him.
Others are good or decent players for the top 6 but the other top half clubs all have their own players that do similar jobs.
The team that won promotion in 99/00 had players miles above the league we were in. Kinsella, Stuart, Robinson, Rufus, Kiely etc could all do a very good job in the Prem. I'd expect a struggle if we had this squad in the Championship without several good signings.
Excellent post Scoham.
I agree with virtually all of it.
Just needed a Kish mention and Len would have loved it all!
My firm's north v south 6 a side tournament had Danny Mills playing as a preposterous ringer for the north last year, and even after retiring and only playing in 2nd gear, he was playing absolutely a different game to teh rest of us in terms of vision, accuracy and speed of thought. You'll appreciate just how surreal the words 'Danny Mills' and 'speed of thought' were in the same sentence.
Have to agree with this - since living in Bexley we've somehow contrived to have two neighbours who had sons with aspirations of playing professional football - in both cases they didn't go on to have glittering careers - last I heard one of them was working as a player/coach at Welling (he's left there now) and the other one was dropped by Fulham and is now playing for a non-league side with dreams of being discovered again. Now, both these guys were spotted at about 7 years of age and their dads told me that almost all of the other "chosen" kids they were playing with at 7 had dropped out by the time they were 14 - it's extremely tough to make it in football and only the best make it.
I also totally disagree with Swisdom.
Who are these "several players" we have that could play in the Championship?? What a load of cobblers.
Bar BWP, I don't see any others. (Eccelston/Fry aren't ours)
Good point, so did Forest (they only scrapped up in 2008) and Sheff Wednesday the first time they went down to L1.
I hate this league, but we are here for a reason and may be here for a while. There are some good players but there are also some very limited players who seem so far short in terms of ability compared to the players we have had before. I personally think we will struggle to go up with some of the players we have and continue to pick (McOxo, Doc ), not writing this season off as we have some winnable (on paper) games coming up at home and anything can happen. Remember feeling this way after Milwall and Gills last season in March yet after that we put on a good run and missed out narrowly on autos.
Not sure the exact answer, Saints have spent well and got one of the best managers in the league imho yet may only be in the PO's whilst Sheff Wednesday are closer to the relegation zone with perhaps a better set of players than we have.
These fellas will almost to a man will never make the "big time" but they are professionals and earn a living out of playing the game we love.
Anyway, bit rich calling it a pub league when we pulled in 25k last time out. What does that make us then?
I would just add that at even at the 3rd tier level the players we watch are significantly technically superior to non league and amateur players. It is extremely difficult to get to this level and plenty aspire but do not make it. Hard at times to believe in matches we watch when a shot hits the corner flag, but it is true. In all the talented kids at age 11 I have watched and coached in getting on for 20 years there has only been 1 who MAY now become a professional player ( and his progress was nothing to do with me, I only got to watch him play)
Maybe at the moment the key question is not has our team got championship quality in it but have we got players who can get us INTO the championship and out of this league?
They can clearly compete at this level, it is consistency that seems to be the main ingredient to climb up this league.
I'm sure Anyinsah would unsettle defenders in the Championship, he's strong, quick and decent on the ball. I wouldn't consider him (or any of our players in fact) to be too good for League 1.
I agree Semedo could play at a higher level with the right players next to him, though probably only in a 3 man central midfield.
As I said we've had players too good for the league we were in before, when we won the league in 99/00. There was a clear difference in their performances compared to our supposed Championship players. If you have 7/8 Championship players you'd get more than the very occasional comfortable and convincing win wouldn't you? We have to really battle our way through games, mainly because we're nothing more than a top 6 side at best IMO.
Leeds took 3 seasons to get out of this division , we've only been in it 2 seasons ( Although Norwich only took 1 season) have a push now , but major overhaul in the summer.
This is why I got so angry when other fans were saying it was good business to cash in on this player or offload that player to save on his wages etc to the point where all the quality was gone. It sent us on a death spiral from which we'll be very lucky to recover from.
It's only a 'pub league' in comparison to the Championship and Premier
If you want a 'pub league' then have a look lower down in the pyramid - and our A-League over here in OZ is real pub like
Yes, quality is needed to get out of this League, but as much as that you need teamwork, camaraderie and balls.....this is where the coaching staff come in.......not too much of the aforementioned qualities on show against a poor Notts County team
Last season I'm not sure any of us had heard of Anyinsah. Now he's considered one of our better players. That would suggest he was probably by far Carlisle's best player last season, but if you ask their fans I doubt they'd say he was a level above the rest.
I think there is a lot in that theory that we don't (didn't!) know the players.
I can't understand why every team that visits The Valley appears to have more determination and desire than our players in that they win far more second balls than we do, as recently exemplified by Exeter, yet I cannot seriously accuse one of our present set of players, except Racon at times, of a lack of effort and commitment.
Can anyone else explain it?!