Our biggest threat comes from Gillingham. Once Scally builds his 50,000 seater in the Medway towns we'll lose all of our Valley Express customers to them. Factor in the fans we'll lose to West Ham, Spurs, and Palace, our crowds will be down to about 200.
[cite]Posted By: razil[/cite]Personally I think the real battle is between the three southeast London clubs, I just hope we remain (arguably) the club to take most advantage of that, and regain our status quickly to continue the good work.
I agree with this. When I was a kid in the 60s Spurs and Chelsea were the glamour clubs of London, with Arsenal if you wanted to support boring success.
There was large latent support for Charlton but based on past glories but the yoof tended to be attracted to the glamour clubs of London and further afield.
It seems to me that has not really changed much since then. Spurs or West Ham moving to an iconic Stadium at Stratford will attract additional support, some of whom will come from our area.
We have been discussing the issue of the Thames Gateway and target 40,000 on the "Directors" thread. Clearly in my view there is a huge and growing catchment area which our club can tap into. I am sure our new owners know this. The only way I can see to place ourselves in the best position to exploit this is for the club to return to the Premier League. I can't see that happening realistically outside of five years - of course it could be quicker.
Personally I don't worry that Spurs or West Ham may move to the Olympic Stadium, we can't stop it happening so I'd worry about what we can do to reach out to the Millions of potential supporters within our catchment area. We are have a core support of around 15,000 and potential support given a successful return of over 20,000. Given the number of passive football fans there are within the population, surely it must be possible to grow the active support base to beyond 30,000 with the right approach.
As for Palace, well lets not be complacent but they are light years behind us in terms of community links. Moving two miles closer to us wont make much difference. A more iconic stadium will help them. Their problem is energising their stay at home fan base first before they connect to a group of new fans.
I am hopeful that the Board will market the club as vigorously as possible in the catchment area. There is little point though if those that come for the first time have a horrid experience. I fear that is what any new visitor will have been met with for much of the last few seasons.
1. A dispirited and under-performing team
2. Disillusioned, hostile and fractious fans
3. An understaffed and half-empty ground
So action need to be taken to ensure that the match day experience is good
a) by playing attractive not attritional football
b) by supporters getting behind the team, win or lose
c) by supporters taken positive action to raise the clubs profile (as Henry suggested)
c) by improving/enhancing facilities at the ground
d) by making transport links and parking easier (Valley Express/Park & Ride)
I believe that the key is getting people into the habit of coming. You have a much better chance of them returning if the day was an enjoyable one.
The community work is important but not just The Trust. Chris Powell has a great rapport with fans and I think that if he gives leadership to the players to reach out into the community that will be very important. I get the impression that less happens now than in Curbs time. I may be wrong.
In conclusion, as a club, there is plenty for us to pitch to in terms of new active supporters. Spurs or West Ham reaching into our areas will happen. We can't stop them doing it, we can make our club more welcoming and a great place to watch attractive football. I hope that is what the Board plans to do. The Manager and team need to do their bit and as fans we need to play our part.
There is a massive catchment area south of the river and no large club this side of the Kings Road. We can be that big club.
Rather than "ordinary" fans one of the attractions of the Olympic stadium will be the far better corporate facilities than at either WHL or UP.
So they will be able to offer rich, high spending corporates a much better deal than us at the Valley. The East stand extension will help but still leave us a long way behind.
One reason why a new or re-built stadium is more attractive to Palace's new owners that Selhurst Park
[cite]Posted By: Richard J[/cite]In terms of the Stadium I think the bigger threat to us is that virtually the whole of East Kent could reach Stratford by high speed rail in less than an hour.
I think West Ham at the Olympic Stadium would be more of a threat than Spurs, because the former would probably need to sell seats at around the £15/£20 mark to have an chance of filling it even in the PL. The improved rail connections are significant, but so are the fares on HS1.
[cite]Posted By: AFKABartram[/cite]If there is one thing out of this whole takeover thing that i hope is being addressed its aside from what happens on the football pitch, and what can be done to try and cement the club greater in the local areas, because despite all our fantastic community schemes we have led on in the past 20 years and a decent Premiership spell, its still not carved out anything what you would class as a 'Charlton area' and the competition is about to get a whole lot tougher.
Even in League One and with limited resource there is work being done in local areas by club development CAFC staff, as well as the community trust. This will have limited outcomes until the offer on the pitch is better, but even without the trust we are vastly more active than Crystal Palace and Millwall in SE London already. You are never going to carve out exclusive areas of support in Greater London but I am confident that we are much better placed now in the local area than at any point in my lifetime - especially given our League One status. I am confident that we are better placed than any other club in Greenwich and Bexley, because the data tells us that regardless of people's anecdotes and perceptions, although I'd accept that we wouldn't outnumber the aggregate of all other clubs' support and of course we can always do more with more resource. But any notion we neglect our backyard is fanciful.
I went to West ham earlier this season, and the ground was not full against Fulham.
Quite how they expect to fill the Olympic stadium will take some marketing, and as there is a very good chance of them being in the Championship it seems very ambitious!, and there 'support' did not looked as if it came from around the corner!
However, after saying that, if they do go there, and stay in the Prem, then I think they could be a major potential 'spoiler' for Charlton's potential growth.
I have never been convinced that Greenwich people have been the prime target of Charlton!. There are obviously local people i.e. Greenwich, but Bromley and Bexley, and North Kent seem to be a major area, now!.
I am not saying that people from Charlton do not support the club, but a lot of friends I know support Prem clubs, and the kids do because of TV and the media spotlight on them!
So first things first, get back into the championship!.
Seems like there are too many ifs, and might be's, but our drive to get back to the second tier has to be the primary, focus, of the club, the players, and supporters!
Cannot see the Spurs plan ever likely to suceed via the move!, as the games governing body want the stadium to be an athletics track, although they will struggle to fill that outside major Athletic games!
[cite]Posted By: Red_in_SE8[/cite]The big differential for Charlton the last time they were in the premiership was their ticket prices. They were easily the most affordable premiership club in London. The prices that Chelsea, Spurs, Arsenal and West Ham charge are even steeper today. If I want to sit in the equvalent area that I like to use at the valley at these grounds today it would cost something like £80 or £90 for one match. If Charlton want to retain and grow their fan base in the face of a new premiership club moving into a ground that is only 5 miles away, a ground that is easy to get to from South East London not to mention Central London, their main weapon will be ticket prices.
Agree with Red in saying that a policy of competative ticket pricing will be Charltons main weapon in establishing a bigger fan base. I am sure Peter Varney in the prem years along with Richard Murray knew that then and I doubt their plan of attack will change much moving forward. Football at the top end market prices is I believe going to price itself out of fans over the next few years and a team like Charlton offering let's hope premiership football could actuallly rapidly increase it's fanbase.
[cite]Posted By: Crusty54[/cite]I was horrified by the number of Spurs fans on my train from London Bridge to Woolwich on Sunday evening
I wouldnt panic too much...the Bexleyheath line was out with Engineering works so we had to get home somehow ;-)
[cite]Posted By: ShootersHillGuru[/cite]
[cite]Posted By: Red_in_SE8[/cite]The big differential for Charlton the last time they were in the premiership was their ticket prices. They were easily the most affordable premiership club in London. The prices that Chelsea, Spurs, Arsenal and West Ham charge are even steeper today. If I want to sit in the equvalent area that I like to use at the valley at these grounds today it would cost something like £80 or £90 for one match. If Charlton want to retain and grow their fan base in the face of a new premiership club moving into a ground that is only 5 miles away, a ground that is easy to get to from South East London not to mention Central London, their main weapon will be ticket prices.
Agree with Red in saying that a policy of competative ticket pricing will be Charltons main weapon in establishing a bigger fan base. I am sure Peter Varney in the prem years along with Richard Murray knew that then and I doubt their plan of attack will change much moving forward. Football at the top end market prices is I believe going to price itself out of fans over the next few years and a team like Charlton offering let's hope premiership football could actuallly rapidly increase it's fanbase.
In principal yes, but what are you going to do when West Ham continue their kids-for-a-quid scheme at the Olympic stadium? They do it now to sell out Upton Park regularly. They are already talking discounted ticket prices. How can you compete with that? That could take away a whole generation of support from you guys.
[cite]Posted By: JohnBoyUK[/cite]In principal yes, but what are you going to do when West Ham continue their kids-for-a-quid scheme at the Olympic stadium? They do it now to sell out Upton Park regularly. They are already talking discounted ticket prices. How can you compete with that? That could take away a whole generation of support from you guys.
Watching football with binoculars is a novelty, not something people will want to repeat.
I can see the threat from a West Ham "kids for a quid" scheme, but hasn't their support always been a lot more brittle? Especially as their recent history has included a couple of relegations, while Spurs have been in the top tier for well over 30 years now. I doubt West Ham could match the number of daytrippers that Spurs mustered at our cup match at WHL.
Then again, Spurs' recent fine form and West Ham's bumpy recent past could be deceiving me.
West ham wouldnt bother me they rarely sellout these days, even old trafford has season tickets availble which is unheard of, doubt the econmy will better either so best to cement what you have now then worry about others. We will be off to kings hill by 2015 anyway ;-)
West ham wouldnt bother me they rarely sellout these days, even old trafford has season tickets availble which is unheard of, doubt the econmy will better either so best to cement what you have now then worry about others. We will be off to kings hill by 2015 anyway ;-)
I wonder sometimes if we don't spend too much time looking over our shoulder. Of couse there are threats, but don't we also have opportunities? If you look at the ethnic mix of people in and around Charlton, our crowd is very disproportionate. We now have a black manager, something that would have seemed impossible back in my protest days of anti-apartheid, and for me it is a massive reason for celebration. Let's get out there and work to draw in the whole community, we've made great progress in kicking racism out of football, the time is ripe to take the next step forward.
WHLane is quite a good ground once you are in your seat, and I imagine it can be atmospheric on occasion when Tottenham fans feel like it. However I also feel that it is a ground in need of change and upgrading very soon. I would argue that the old Highbury was better than the present WHL, and Arsenal felt the need to build a new stadium.
I would also argue that Upton park is in better nick, a better stadium than WHL. I first thought Spurs going to the Olympic stadium was posturing, but after the game last week, and a good old look around, I realise the stadium 'question' is something Spurs have to deal with pretty soon.
I suppose they have the money to build, but the question is where.
I reckon Orient should be in the new olympic stadium, but they may not be wealthy enough for the upkeep. I don't really get why West Ham need to move, but I agree that we should continue to focus on our own development issues rather than be concerned overmuch about the plans of others.
Above all we should always stay at the Valley.
West Ham want it because it's a cheap stadium with excellent transport facilities near where they play. A far cheaper option than finishing off their ground.
Orient already have a decent ground with excellent facilities which they can't fill.
I know it doesn't say that the council will be guarantors but reading between the lines it seems there's no other reason to withhold this info. In the current economic climate, where public sector worker are getting laid off, services cut, etc I'd be pretty angry if I lived in or worked for LB Newham and found out they were spending time and resources on securing cheap finance from the treasury (tax payer) to help fund the activities of a private company which ultimately is only going to benefit relatively few people that has a history of being badly run even by it's own appalling industries standards. Particularly when you consider the way they've gone about it e.g. witholding the full info from councillors.
Leaving aside the issue of the mayors dubious action in accepting 3-4 times as much hospitality from the Hammers as at similar authourities, this just stinks to me and I couldn't see Greenwich for instance doing anything similar.
I think it's fair to say Orient massively over played there hand on this about 18 months ago, when they were demanding shed loads of concessions from OPLC
It's funny watching the penny drop amongest the West Ham fans that getting hold of the Olympic Stadium is all Sullivan & Gold are interested in. Relegation & Running Tracks around the pitch are both incidental. They know West Ham won't fill the stadium, they're not bothered. They are looking at all the other spin - offs to begin with , open air concerts, 20/20 Cricket, etc. They see it as a long term cash cow, to add to the profits from selling Upton Park to property developers.
Question is, will the politicians allow the Stadium to go to individuals with their business backgrounds?
Either way it shouldn't affect Charlton. If anything, West Ham will lose punters not happy with watching football from 100 metres away in a soul-less stadium. Orient, Dagenham & Charlton could all benefit.
[cite]Posted By: Tutt-Tutt[/cite]It's funny watching the penny drop amongest the West Ham fans that getting hold of the Olympic Stadium is all Sullivan & Gold are interested in. Relegation & Running Tracks around the pitch are both incidental. They know West Ham won't fill the stadium, they're not bothered. They are looking at all the other spin - offs to begin with , open air concerts, 20/20 Cricket, etc. They see it as a long term cash cow, to add to the profits from selling Upton Park to property developers.
Question is, will the politicians allow the Stadium to go to individuals with their business backgrounds?
I can't see any positive or negative spin-offs if either WHU/THFC move to the Olympic stadium, but having spent a couple of billion on it I don't see why a football club shouldn't move there - otherwise there'll be half-a-dozen athletic meets, a few concerts, the odd boxing match and that's it, a total white elephant. It would make more sense to me for Spurs and West Ham to pool resources and ground share. Either way I can see those clubs competing for the same fan base. As we get ours from SE London and North Kent and even the Medway towns I doubt that we'd lose that many fans. Essex, Herts, East London, SE London and Kent is a big catchment area, enough for all clubs. I doubt that you'd see Spurs/West Ham doing much active marketing south of the river.
But I can't see any reason why Sullivan and Gold's day job would prevent them from buying the stadium. The alternative is to sell it to Spurs/AEG and that means bulldozing it and starting again, except with no athletics track, or leaving it empty and unprofitable.
I want West Ham to get it:
a). Because they are already in the area and so I don't think it would make much difference to us
b). Because they will keep the running track and so I don't think it will be a successful move.
I think that Leyton Orient have got much much more to worry about than us.
If the Olympics Stadium was being built at Ebbsfleet and the club was being taken over by someone like The Arabs at Man City or Bernie Ecclestone then I think that really could scupper our plans. Our catchment area is to the South East of Charlton not north. Likewise West Ham's is generally north of the river.
Whatever happens, Spurs or West Ham fans have the most to fear because like Arsenal they will be losing their soul. We on the other hand, staying at The Valley and staying in business, keep ours and can be proud. That's what really matters.
[cite]Posted By: Tutt-Tutt[/cite]It's funny watching the penny drop amongest the West Ham fans that getting hold of the Olympic Stadium is all Sullivan & Gold are interested in. Relegation & Running Tracks around the pitch are both incidental. They know West Ham won't fill the stadium, they're not bothered. They are looking at all the other spin - offs to begin with , open air concerts, 20/20 Cricket, etc. They see it as a long term cash cow, to add to the profits from selling Upton Park to property developers.
Question is, will the politicians allow the Stadium to go to individuals with their business backgrounds?
Either way it shouldn't affect Charlton. If anything, West Ham will lose punters not happy with watching football from 100 metres away in a soul-less stadium. Orient, Dagenham & Charlton could all benefit.
It a point of view.
Another point of view is that West Ham are in a massive amount of debt due to the Icelandic fiasco (£100m plus). Two successful businessmen who are West Ham fans through and through, put up a serious amount of their own money to rescue the club, which still has massive debts. They decide that a move to the OS will help deal with the debt by selling Boleyn Ground, and put the club in a multi-purpose stadium where they won't be reliant on just football income. Thus West Ham have a chance over time of becoming more successful on the pitch. In consideration of their risk taking, they buy the other half of the club, or the club is floated and they make some money on their half share.
Comments
I agree with this. When I was a kid in the 60s Spurs and Chelsea were the glamour clubs of London, with Arsenal if you wanted to support boring success.
There was large latent support for Charlton but based on past glories but the yoof tended to be attracted to the glamour clubs of London and further afield.
It seems to me that has not really changed much since then. Spurs or West Ham moving to an iconic Stadium at Stratford will attract additional support, some of whom will come from our area.
We have been discussing the issue of the Thames Gateway and target 40,000 on the "Directors" thread. Clearly in my view there is a huge and growing catchment area which our club can tap into. I am sure our new owners know this. The only way I can see to place ourselves in the best position to exploit this is for the club to return to the Premier League. I can't see that happening realistically outside of five years - of course it could be quicker.
Personally I don't worry that Spurs or West Ham may move to the Olympic Stadium, we can't stop it happening so I'd worry about what we can do to reach out to the Millions of potential supporters within our catchment area. We are have a core support of around 15,000 and potential support given a successful return of over 20,000. Given the number of passive football fans there are within the population, surely it must be possible to grow the active support base to beyond 30,000 with the right approach.
As for Palace, well lets not be complacent but they are light years behind us in terms of community links. Moving two miles closer to us wont make much difference. A more iconic stadium will help them. Their problem is energising their stay at home fan base first before they connect to a group of new fans.
I am hopeful that the Board will market the club as vigorously as possible in the catchment area. There is little point though if those that come for the first time have a horrid experience. I fear that is what any new visitor will have been met with for much of the last few seasons.
1. A dispirited and under-performing team
2. Disillusioned, hostile and fractious fans
3. An understaffed and half-empty ground
So action need to be taken to ensure that the match day experience is good
a) by playing attractive not attritional football
b) by supporters getting behind the team, win or lose
c) by supporters taken positive action to raise the clubs profile (as Henry suggested)
c) by improving/enhancing facilities at the ground
d) by making transport links and parking easier (Valley Express/Park & Ride)
I believe that the key is getting people into the habit of coming. You have a much better chance of them returning if the day was an enjoyable one.
The community work is important but not just The Trust. Chris Powell has a great rapport with fans and I think that if he gives leadership to the players to reach out into the community that will be very important. I get the impression that less happens now than in Curbs time. I may be wrong.
In conclusion, as a club, there is plenty for us to pitch to in terms of new active supporters. Spurs or West Ham reaching into our areas will happen. We can't stop them doing it, we can make our club more welcoming and a great place to watch attractive football. I hope that is what the Board plans to do. The Manager and team need to do their bit and as fans we need to play our part.
There is a massive catchment area south of the river and no large club this side of the Kings Road. We can be that big club.
So they will be able to offer rich, high spending corporates a much better deal than us at the Valley. The East stand extension will help but still leave us a long way behind.
One reason why a new or re-built stadium is more attractive to Palace's new owners that Selhurst Park
I think West Ham at the Olympic Stadium would be more of a threat than Spurs, because the former would probably need to sell seats at around the £15/£20 mark to have an chance of filling it even in the PL. The improved rail connections are significant, but so are the fares on HS1.
Even in League One and with limited resource there is work being done in local areas by club development CAFC staff, as well as the community trust. This will have limited outcomes until the offer on the pitch is better, but even without the trust we are vastly more active than Crystal Palace and Millwall in SE London already. You are never going to carve out exclusive areas of support in Greater London but I am confident that we are much better placed now in the local area than at any point in my lifetime - especially given our League One status. I am confident that we are better placed than any other club in Greenwich and Bexley, because the data tells us that regardless of people's anecdotes and perceptions, although I'd accept that we wouldn't outnumber the aggregate of all other clubs' support and of course we can always do more with more resource. But any notion we neglect our backyard is fanciful.
Quite how they expect to fill the Olympic stadium will take some marketing, and as there is a very good chance of them being in the Championship it seems very ambitious!, and there 'support' did not looked as if it came from around the corner!
However, after saying that, if they do go there, and stay in the Prem, then I think they could be a major potential 'spoiler' for Charlton's potential growth.
I have never been convinced that Greenwich people have been the prime target of Charlton!. There are obviously local people i.e. Greenwich, but Bromley and Bexley, and North Kent seem to be a major area, now!.
I am not saying that people from Charlton do not support the club, but a lot of friends I know support Prem clubs, and the kids do because of TV and the media spotlight on them!
So first things first, get back into the championship!.
Seems like there are too many ifs, and might be's, but our drive to get back to the second tier has to be the primary, focus, of the club, the players, and supporters!
Cannot see the Spurs plan ever likely to suceed via the move!, as the games governing body want the stadium to be an athletics track, although they will struggle to fill that outside major Athletic games!
Agree with Red in saying that a policy of competative ticket pricing will be Charltons main weapon in establishing a bigger fan base. I am sure Peter Varney in the prem years along with Richard Murray knew that then and I doubt their plan of attack will change much moving forward. Football at the top end market prices is I believe going to price itself out of fans over the next few years and a team like Charlton offering let's hope premiership football could actuallly rapidly increase it's fanbase.
I wouldnt panic too much...the Bexleyheath line was out with Engineering works so we had to get home somehow ;-)
In principal yes, but what are you going to do when West Ham continue their kids-for-a-quid scheme at the Olympic stadium? They do it now to sell out Upton Park regularly. They are already talking discounted ticket prices. How can you compete with that? That could take away a whole generation of support from you guys.
They may take some but its a huge catchment area. I am not too worried about Wet Spam. I am more concerned about us and what we do to be honest.
Watching football with binoculars is a novelty, not something people will want to repeat.
;-)
Then again, Spurs' recent fine form and West Ham's bumpy recent past could be deceiving me.
I would also argue that Upton park is in better nick, a better stadium than WHL. I first thought Spurs going to the Olympic stadium was posturing, but after the game last week, and a good old look around, I realise the stadium 'question' is something Spurs have to deal with pretty soon.
I suppose they have the money to build, but the question is where.
I reckon Orient should be in the new olympic stadium, but they may not be wealthy enough for the upkeep. I don't really get why West Ham need to move, but I agree that we should continue to focus on our own development issues rather than be concerned overmuch about the plans of others.
Above all we should always stay at the Valley.
Orient already have a decent ground with excellent facilities which they can't fill.
Newham council to guarantee cheap loan to WHU from tax payers
I know it doesn't say that the council will be guarantors but reading between the lines it seems there's no other reason to withhold this info. In the current economic climate, where public sector worker are getting laid off, services cut, etc I'd be pretty angry if I lived in or worked for LB Newham and found out they were spending time and resources on securing cheap finance from the treasury (tax payer) to help fund the activities of a private company which ultimately is only going to benefit relatively few people that has a history of being badly run even by it's own appalling industries standards. Particularly when you consider the way they've gone about it e.g. witholding the full info from councillors.
Leaving aside the issue of the mayors dubious action in accepting 3-4 times as much hospitality from the Hammers as at similar authourities, this just stinks to me and I couldn't see Greenwich for instance doing anything similar.
Question is, will the politicians allow the Stadium to go to individuals with their business backgrounds?
Either way it shouldn't affect Charlton. If anything, West Ham will lose punters not happy with watching football from 100 metres away in a soul-less stadium. Orient, Dagenham & Charlton could all benefit.
G&S need Newham Council to play ball . Spurs are paying with their own money ,that's why my money will be on Spurs to win the Stadium.
I can't see any positive or negative spin-offs if either WHU/THFC move to the Olympic stadium, but having spent a couple of billion on it I don't see why a football club shouldn't move there - otherwise there'll be half-a-dozen athletic meets, a few concerts, the odd boxing match and that's it, a total white elephant. It would make more sense to me for Spurs and West Ham to pool resources and ground share. Either way I can see those clubs competing for the same fan base. As we get ours from SE London and North Kent and even the Medway towns I doubt that we'd lose that many fans. Essex, Herts, East London, SE London and Kent is a big catchment area, enough for all clubs. I doubt that you'd see Spurs/West Ham doing much active marketing south of the river.
But I can't see any reason why Sullivan and Gold's day job would prevent them from buying the stadium. The alternative is to sell it to Spurs/AEG and that means bulldozing it and starting again, except with no athletics track, or leaving it empty and unprofitable.
a). Because they are already in the area and so I don't think it would make much difference to us
b). Because they will keep the running track and so I don't think it will be a successful move.
I think that Leyton Orient have got much much more to worry about than us.
If the Olympics Stadium was being built at Ebbsfleet and the club was being taken over by someone like The Arabs at Man City or Bernie Ecclestone then I think that really could scupper our plans. Our catchment area is to the South East of Charlton not north. Likewise West Ham's is generally north of the river.
Whatever happens, Spurs or West Ham fans have the most to fear because like Arsenal they will be losing their soul. We on the other hand, staying at The Valley and staying in business, keep ours and can be proud. That's what really matters.
It a point of view.
Another point of view is that West Ham are in a massive amount of debt due to the Icelandic fiasco (£100m plus). Two successful businessmen who are West Ham fans through and through, put up a serious amount of their own money to rescue the club, which still has massive debts. They decide that a move to the OS will help deal with the debt by selling Boleyn Ground, and put the club in a multi-purpose stadium where they won't be reliant on just football income. Thus West Ham have a chance over time of becoming more successful on the pitch. In consideration of their risk taking, they buy the other half of the club, or the club is floated and they make some money on their half share.
Quick lads, back to the ditch - where's my helmet.....