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New Article: Where is your Charlton 'Breaking Point' ?

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  • @incorruptible it is disingenous to suggest that Oggy is arguing that:
    BUT THESE PEOPLE ARE NOT THE REASON CAFC IS IN DIVISION THREE AND IT'S RIDICULOUS TO PRETEND THAT THEY ARE.

    I take him to be suggesting that the Valley crowd are A reason. And I agree, in so much as the Valley atmosphere was quite oppressive during the last of the Curbishley years.
  • Simple.
    Nowhere, ever.
  • [cite]Posted By: incorruptible addick[/cite]But how on earth can you possibly suggest that the main thing wrong with CAFC is the bloody supporters?

    I did not say it was the main thing wrong, did I ......? But it is one thing wrong.

    So if you get off your high horse, Incorruptible, and actually read what I said - you'll see that I actually refer to the poisonous atmosphere, the fact that the team play in a fearful, cautious manner. Yet away from home, we've frequently seen a much more creative free-flowing performance.

    Is that coincidence?
    Maybe, but IMO it happens too frequently to be mere coincidence. .

    Remember Fortress Valley?
    Remember the progress made by the club when Board, squad and fans were all pulling in the same direction........ and earned our promotions and consolidation in the Premiership?
    Remember the unity that built Charlton into the model club that so many others desired to emulate.

    Where is that unity today ........and don't you think the crowd have a part to play?


    Absolutely the team must play it's part, but the atmosphere does nothing to get behind the players.
    It's destructive. I don't know how much you know about actually playing the game, but most players are confidence players; it means they need to play without fear in order to play their best. Just human nature.

    But like a few years ago, the fans today do have a part to play in building the matchday atmosphere positively.
    Or don't you think so?

    And if you read my post properly, I don't just "blame the fans" ..... and I've never said that it's the fans fault the club play in the Third Division, that's your fiction.
    [cite]Posted By: incorruptible addick[/cite]
    I wonder why people would say that. Have you considered the possibility that it's because that's exactly what you do at every possible opportunity?

    Let me say it again. I don't blame fans per se, but I do say the atmosphere is frequently poisonous. Are you saying the present matchday atmosphere is conducive to getting behind the team, where supporters actually support the team?

    Of course, we expect the team to play in a fearless, attacking style at The Valley. Maybe we should roll over opponents 5-0 each match. No doubt we pay our money and that buys each of us an opinion and expectation. But what we do get is a cautious, inhibited, fearful performance from the team; topped up by constant abuse and criticism of the team and players individually.

    That's what I (and others) mean by poisonous atmosphere.

    You might think that is supporting the team - but in my opinion, I don't.


    I talk to plenty of supporters who happen to agree with me.
    Indeed, a number of posters on this message board post similar sentiments.

    And if you want to slag me off in your flowery, flamboyant drama-queen way, go ahead.
  • A beautiful thread - one of the best ever. But it has made me sad, that it has come to this.

    Danny - I honestly don't know how you do it. This, the twins, wife, a proper day job. I just hope you slept a little better after writing that post.

    For me the day a stranger thrusted a bit of paper into my hand with directions to some toilet in SE25 was about the worse thing they could ever throw at me. The way the club did that still disgusts me. Yet I was at the first game at Selhurst cheering them on. I don't think I have a breaking point for I have loved Charlton for longer than almost everything in my life and most of that time as Nolly said we have been mostly shit.

    Yet, like Oakster and Bangkok and others I moved away. Before I left the country in 2003 I had had a season ticket for almost every season (not in exile) since my Dad first took me in 1975. In fact I kept one for the first couple of seasons I was in Chicago. How I managed to wean myself of Saturday's at The Valley or in the car travelling to away game is still beyond me. I miss less and less things about 'home' the longer I'm away, but Charlton Athletic I miss terribly and I read (and write) everything I can about the club in order to stay connected. This despite some atrocious times these past few years.

    If I was still living in the UK, my son and I would go regularly I am sure of it. But I have a young daughter now and a non-interested other half and kids do change everything and bring perspective by the bucket load. And noticeably I am less concerned this season (and last) if I miss a commentary or can't pick up a dodgy feed of games than I was in previous years.

    I have only been to one game this season, normally by now I may have done 3. My parents have done none and my brother two. Shocking when I think we used to trawl up and down the country. At Christmas I am at home and potentially, albeit risking kicking off with the other half, I could go to the Southampton, Brighton and the Colchester games, BUT I don't expect to see any of them. Is this family and priorities or malaise? I don't know probably a bit of both.

    One thing I agree with though is that The Valley has lacked atmosphere and passion for a good few years, and that upsets me. I have vowed to take my son to more away games so he can feel part of a more partisan crowd.

    And as for Dennis Wise, he's not a breaking point. He's just another scroat like those wankers who throw coins, call everyone a c**** and can't string two words together. They are not Charlton. We are Charlton. Let's hope we get it back and better times are around the corner.
  • edited December 2010
    Let's be honest its the minority that make the bad noises at the valley , if the players give anything for the fans to latch on to the crowd are right behind them , if it made any real difference some clubs would rent a choir !
    As a group we're not very passionate at all but we're not that bad
    We weren't noisey when there was 4k of disconsolate support at selhurst when we were getting promoted and if it was all about getting behind teams how the hell did pompey or leeds get relegated and wimbledon ever enjoy success ........
    We can all try and hang the hat of blame where we want but the shit management decisions from the top, starting with murrays no thank you to curbishleys offer to stay on for the last year of his contract and help with finding a new manager, have all led to the current crap that's being served up
    Some saw this coming(doom mongers/ realists) and unfortunately the people in the right places(and the rose tinted) didn't but in all honesty no one saw it happening this quickly and that imho is a disgrace cos if tangoman had taken the reigns he'd have been hard pushed to have got us into the position we're in at such pace ...... Roll on the takeover, it can't get worse can it or will afka reach his "falling down" "breaking point" !
  • edited December 2010
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  • edited December 2010
    [cite]Posted By: oohaahmortimer[/cite]Let's be honest its the minority that make the bad noises at the valley , if the players give anything for the fans to latch on to the crowd are right behind them , if it made any real difference some clubs would rent a choir !
    As a group we're not very passionate at all but we're not that bad!

    Eaxactly. Of all the things that have gone wrong with this club, to concentrate on a tiny group of idiots for creating an allegedly ''poisonous atmosphere'' at the Valley is bizarre.

    We don't need them or want them - and I've already said that I wouldn't sit in the north stand (where they seem to be based) if you paid me.

    But 70 or 80 idiots cannot ''poison'' an entire stadium.

    I simply do not recognise this evil atmosphere which apparently prevents us playing good football at home. It's not present where I sit in the west or north-west stands, where it is fairly quiet. I confess I'm not vocal myself - never have been , even as a lad in the 1960s. But as Oohaah says, ''if the players give anything for the fans to latch on to the crowd are right behind them''. The sad fact is that they haven't given us much to sing about very often in recent years, have they?

    This has been a brillant thread, if a rather sad and poignant one.

    There have been many, many good reasons given for the disenchantment many of us feel - from the burdens of responsibility that come with fatherhood to the vapidity of contemporary football/celebrity culture via idiotic decisions in the boardroom and apathetic players. Personally, I've long agreed with Blur that 'Modern Life Is Rubbish' and today see very few of the things in the game that used to make me passionate about football and Charlton in particular. It's a real shame.

    But if out of all this you want to concentrate on getting upset over a handful of idiots who sing rude words and don't like Parky, do me a favour. And if it is true that Charlton players are somehow prevented from playing decent football because they are cowed by this tiny minority , then they really are a pathetic and spineless bunch.
  • [cite]Posted By: incorruptible addick[/cite]
    [cite]Posted By: oohaahmortimer[/cite] And if it is true that Charlton players are somehow prevented from playing decent football because they are cowed by this tiny minority , then they really are a pathetic and spineless bunch.


    must admit mate this is where i am at the players should grow a pair and ramm that shite down their throats and give back to those that dont enter in to the bullshite stuff


    the apathy of the crowd links right back to the root cause of the problem and that is that the football has let the fans down since the premier league relegation through the non promotion championship campaign to the relegation to this shite league and the abject failure last season and the inconsistant and some really poor performances this
  • What we need and have been crying out for some time now is a HERO ..............someone who gets the ball and excites the crowd , someone we would buy a shirt and put his name on the back, someone who we can chant his name and someone who is charlton and represents us ........... aka Steve Brown, super clive , andy hunt, rufus, robinson, kinsella , chris powell , bolder, walshy, bowyer , killer, flash, paddy , he who walks on water ........etc
    I have no feeling for most of the current squad nor the management team and they probably feel the same about us

    it is very depressing and not what it was , but what options do we have ? we can't leave and do something else, so best get behind this lot , it can only get better. When i first started going we were lower down the league than we are now,with a smaller fan base and a stadium which was falling apart ................but it was F**kin great .
  • [cite]Posted By: clivey_hero[/cite]What we need and have been crying out for some time now is a HERO ..............someone who gets the ball and excites the crowd , someone we would buy a shirt and put his name on the back, someone who we can chant his name and someone who is charlton and represents us ........... aka Steve Brown, super clive , andy hunt, rufus, robinson, kinsella , chris powell , bolder, walshy, bowyer , killer, flash, paddy , he who walks on water ........etc
    I have no feeling for most of the current squad nor the management team and they probably feel the same about us

    it is very depressing and not what it was , but what options do we have ? we can't leave and do something else, so best get behind this lot , it can only get better. When i first started going we were lower down the league than we are now,with a smaller fan base and a stadium which was falling apart ................but it was F**kin great .

    This is exactly how I feel. I do miss that 'rush' when someone (anyone?) is on the ball.

    It wont stop me from attending games because as the original post said, I am addicted.

    The games are played at one level on and off the pitch and the fans rarely show excitment. The abusive element are young and will learn but in a funny way I am proud that they are doing something even if I find some of their behaviuor abhorrent. This might sound clumsey and I offer no alternative but there it is.
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  • edited December 2010
    there will be some that will have started following charlton in the last couple of seasons ,who in future years will lay testament that these were indeed the greatest times to be a supporter.

    they'll have forgotten the 30 'fans' chanting obscenities and defeats against the likes of walsall or exeter or struggling to overcome non-league opposition for the second year running.sitting in a half empty stadium.instead they'll reminisce the virtues about the current crop of average players and transform them into yesteryear cult heroes.

    as they grow up they'll pass on their knowledge to new generations,and tut and sigh about the goings on nowadays and how youngsters now just don't get it anymore and didn't go through what they did.possibly losing their enthusiasm,questioning their roles as the club evolves once more as we do the double yet again over the likes of chelsea and spurs and challenge for yet another european place.

    one of the things that makes football so great is that everyone gets something different from it.just enjoy it, no matter how hard you try not to.
  • Im really thankful we arent back in the dark ages of playing in front of 4-5000 at Sellout now,otherwise with the current level of apathy we would be doomed to oblivion. Its going to take some time for me to come to terms with the fact that we have totally lost the fighting spirit that we were once most famous for, but I have to say that apathy is killing this club at the moment.
  • [cite]Posted By: ThreadKiller[/cite]one of the things that makes football so great is that everyone gets something different from it..

    This is the foundation upon which I wanted to start my comments. I read this thread last night and was quite saddenned by what I read, especially by AFKA but I'll get back to him later.

    Everyone does get something different from going to football. I think we can use the creation of FC United to illustrate this. What I find interesting about FC United is in trying to analyse their ´raison d'etre.' It is often said that they were formed as a reaction against the Glaziers but I think that it goes far far deeper than that. I've read a few articles written by FC United fans and the one common thread that comes across is that they get the old style atmosphere, cheap entrance for fathers with their boys, no commercial aspect thrown in their face. In short it's a club created for those who appreciate the grass roots of football. They don't care so much about the actual standard of play: they go for the love of football, for the love of players giving their best and for the love of being as one with fellow fans getting behind these players, all of whom together make a team, players and fans together.
    Clearly this is not possible at their 'mother-club.' What kind of person goes to Old Trafford? Quite a different type of supporter. In short those that appreciate that which we had for a brief spell in the early 00's and much more.

    Which brings us to Charlton. We recently had a fairly length Premeirship experience with all the shine and gloss that this brings. We basked in the sunlight. Season after season we shed a new summer skin and flolicked around in our new replica tops, purring over the Rolls Royce players we constantly aquired and lived like Del Boy when he won his millions. Then like Del Boy it all went wrong. We find ourselves back in Nelson Mandela House i.e. The Third Division and we just can't get used to it.

    There are some that say they prefer it back in the doldrums. Fine. They are others who won't accept it and don't go anymore. Then there are those who keep going and don't like it. I believe that 90 per cent of those going now don't like it. I read a lot on this site about players lacking effort, there are no new heros, the standard of football WE play is crap, etc etc. Get used to it. This is the Third Division. Its the same for all the other supporters of other third division clubs. Do you really think that they are watching something so much better? Of course not because if they were then their team wouldn't be in the Third Division. The difference is that we are spoilt and they aren't. For them it is normal. for them Wagstaff would be the hero, fourth place would be a triumph, Parky would be a genius having got players from nowhere for nothing.
    And before I get someone on here saying 'oh but you don't go anymore' I can still make a judgement based on the TV games. I must admit that Parky's style is not all that endearing sometimes. However I thought the performance at Luton was professional. He likes to try to soak up the opposition. As long as we stay level he is happy. His outlook is that first of all you try to draw the game 0-0 and then when the opposition are off guard you can nick it. You may not like this approach but you certainly can't blame the players. All this talk of them having no spirit, fight or whatever is just fans confortable on Premiership fine cuisine now finding themselves in the Third Division soup kitchen.

    The other point is that many fans are a bit unsure of what they actually want now. Many of us say that we can do without The Premiership and it's over-rich players, 'plastic fans', rampant commercialism etc. Then again we hate Division Three. So what do we want? Are we happy to be an average team in The Championship? Maybe for a few seasons but then I reckon most people would get itchy feet? What then? So do you want to be a supporter of Charlton United or FC United of Charlton. For the moment it's the latter. The only way to stay sane is accept it, lower expectations and enjoy what we've got. After all it's not that bad - it's not as if we're mid-table with nothing to play for.

    This all brings me to AFKA Bartram. I don't really know him well but I would say hello if we passed in the street or the pub and he would ask me how I am and talk for a few minutes. But I'm worried about him. I'm not a psychologist but I think that everyone on here is underestimating how difficult this must be for him. Not only is he struggling with the points I've outlined above but he has no escape. At least everyone else on here can get away if they want to. He though has to manage this website, a site on which everyone is moaning and crying over the very same subject he needs to get away from. Meanwhile he has two 6 month old babies to care for. I think it's easy to forget how hard this is, even for those who have children. My oldest is nearly 3 but now we have another at 3 months I'm shocked by how I'd forgotton what it's like. Not only is that difficult but an eye has to be kept on the 3 year old. During the next year AFKA's going to have the 2 of them both learning to walk and run and bouncing off the walls at the same time! He's going to be depressed at his team (hopefully not), spend his spare team reading about how depressed you lot are, and then have two kids both entering their most difficult phase at the same time.

    For the sake of AFKA and Charlton Life I would say that those reading this who see him regularly try to help.
  • You know what, it was just like this back then,in the1970's or the days of the old Div 3 only we never had the internet making the pain so much more intense, hour by hour,post after post.
  • I've just read the points made by jimmymelrose, and though unusually lengthy for a CL post, it really is a fine contribution. I was particularly struck by the final sentence - 'For the sake of AFKA and Charlton Life I would say that those reading this who see him regularly try to help.'
    I'm in wholehearted agreement. It's people like AFKA who have done so much to help a 'Prem glory' supporter such as myself to understand the passion and love for everthing Charlton stands for. I've very often felt upset for many of the CL posters because our decline has been very painful for me, what on earth can it feel like for them? AFKA asks so little of us on this site and yet there are some who ignore him, repeatedly, and rant on with endless and all too often savage and literally mindless negativity. We even have to rip each other apart for no justifiable reason whatever. It is indeed, time to help. Well said jimmymelrose.
  • Where is my Charlton breaking point?

    Been thinking about this on and off for the past few days now. The short answer for me is that I don't think I've got one, not any more.

    Came very very close to not renewing my season ticket a few years back. Going to games was becoming a chore and I hated the fact that I hated going. I used to sit there squirming in my seat most games. Most of the people I used to go with didn't go any more and those that did go were in other parts of the ground, so I wouldn't see them from one week to the next. My son had been born and suddenly my priorities had changed. Spending money and "wasting" time on something I wasn't enjoying seemed pointless. And this set in before we got relegated from the Prem, although what followed just seemed to add to the malaise. You could say that I was at the stage that AFKA seems to be at now.

    Hand on heart, I think the only reason I renewed was because of my old man. I knew that if I stopped going then he'd stop as well and I didn't want to be the reason for him giving it up after 40 or 50 years of support. We've never spoken about it, but I reckon it was the same for him - he didn't really want to renew either but didn't want to let me down. He's a great bloke like that my dad - can't recall him ever letting anyone down about anything. ANYTHING. EVER.

    He's had a few health problems these past few years and I've come to realise that he's not going to be around forever. To me that makes the time we have together now even more precious. I can't imagine going down there without him anymore - has brought a lump to my throat just thinking about it. So, my breaking point might have been the day my old man passes on - but it wont be.

    The reason for that is my son. He's 7 now and I bought him his first season ticket this year. He's absolutely mad about Charlton. As I type this he is running around the dining room in the full kit acting out one goal scene or another - complete with commentary, chanting, Sky Sports analysis ("Unbelievable Jeff") and he even mimics BDL with the old "You know what you've got to do, get behind the boys and make some noise!". Akpo Sodje is his favourite player - I know, he's "proper Charlton" already!

    The three of us go to games now and I know how much it means to my old man to spend time with his grandson. So regardless of the game - which is almost an irrelevance - the time we spend together is absolutely priceless. My enthusiasm for going to matches has been reborn to a certain extent. It doesn't carry the same excitement and anticipation that it used to, but equally I don't absolutely dread going anymore.

    It seems to me that if I can survive that low point and come through the other side then I will probably continue to take whatever Charlton throws my way.

    Keep the faith AFKA. Life changes, it doesn't stay the same. In the same way your support for your team evolves. It's not necesarily better or worse, just different. You're getting old son, it happens to us all. ;o)
  • Great post there, Offy!
  • Top man Offy, that's a great read.
  • That's a nice post Off it, got me a bit choked just reading it! :-)
  • Great post Offy. I just have to hear the Red Red Robin and thoughts of my dad come flooding back. Make the most of everything whist you can.
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  • Great post, Off it.
  • Off-it, without belabouring the point, that captures things well for me as well, and I suspect a lot on here.

    Of course, I can't speak knowledgeably about Valley atmosphere, and the day to day of those weeks (especially in this league) when you actually dread seeing that you've "got to" go to three games in quick succession, but I know these sorts of experiences from being a season ticket holder to other teams, and other sports.

    Oddly enough, the community that I've found with Charlton (primarily through here) has resulted in me being far more emotionally engaged about the club than I am about various teams that I've supported over here for decades, both on the profession and college levels. Frankly, it's the big business of sport (not just football) that I'm quite fed up with, and only recently have I come to the conclusion that high level sport is increasingly about little more than separating you from your money, and that owners and leagues will do only as much as it takes to continue to do that. (For those who know Toronto sports, the owners of the Raptors, Maple Leafs and Toronto FC -- MLSE -- are an obvious example...no need to spend a lot or even wisely on the on-field product if the cashbox is full whether you do or not). In the course of about 6 years, this has become the team/club/franchise that I follow pretty much to the exclusion of all others in any sport.

    I am looking at this through rose-coloured glasses, I am sure, but Charlton doesn't strike me as being like that. The mere idea of League football being a for-profit exercise, save at the highest levels, and likely not even there, seems pretty laughable, and I love the admittedly romantic idea that Charlton really is a community club.

    So, I guess my breaking point will be when I come to the conclusion that this isn't what Charlton is about. Who knows when that might be...perhaps as early as Christmas Eve? ;-) All I know is that if I fall out of love with this club, it'll be because I've lost all faith in high level sport, and there won't be another to fill the gap.

    On a closing note, to me Richard Murray is a blessing. He is one of you/us, and although there have been bad decisions made, I can't imagine that anyone could suggest with a straight face that anything decisions that he has made have been done in anything but the utmost good faith, and having mind to being a caretaker of something that he loves.
  • Perhaps the breaking point has already happened for a number of people, even though they still attend matches?

    Maybe it was the point when we ceased to become supporters, instead becoming customers.
  • [cite]Posted By: Oggy Red[/cite]Perhaps the breaking point has already happened for a number of people, even though they still attend matches?

    Maybe it was the point when we ceased to become supporters, instead becoming customers.

    That's a very good point - offering a free season ticket on our return to the Premiership (ho, ho), the 5-year season ticket (ho,ho,ho), etc. They treat us like mugs. We like to kid ourselves that the club is about the fans, we'll be there long after the players, the manager and the owners have come and gone, but they will have all taken a lot of money off us in the meantime.
  • [cite]Posted By: Saga Lout[/cite]
    [cite]Posted By: Oggy Red[/cite]Perhaps the breaking point has already happened for a number of people, even though they still attend matches?

    Maybe it was the point when we ceased to become supporters, instead becoming customers.

    That's a very good point - offering a free season ticket on our return to the Premiership (ho, ho), the 5-year season ticket (ho,ho,ho), etc. They treat us like mugs. We like to kid ourselves that the club is about the fans, we'll be there long after the players, the manager and the owners have come and gone, but they will have all taken a lot of money off us in the meantime.

    Disagree entirely. Sure, it's not a co-operative, but I firmly believe that over the years we have been treated pretty well by our club - compared to your average club/fan relationship at any rate.
  • The breaking point for me was just before Pardew got sacked as nothing was going right for us. Charlton Zabeel takeover fallout, bottom of the league and losing over 3 goals at home great.........

    That first half of the season was not exactly the best of times for me because of personal reasons and to see Charlton going on a terrible run really topped it up for me. I have been a season ticket holder since 1994/95 season when David Whyte was my first idol lol but I have been spoilt as a Charlton fan as we have moved up a level every season.

    My mum and dad used to say what crap they witnessed during the 60's to 80's. My dad stopped going when we sold Alan Cambell as he was a brilliant player for us but as you know the history we were a selling club and not investing in players.

    I am not even going to think about stopping going to Charlton as I am too hooked to go and watch them every Saturday home and away, besides Saturdays would be boring without Charlton.
  • edited December 2010
    [cite]Posted By: Rodex[/cite]You know what, it was just like this back then,in the1970's or the days of the old Div 3 only we never had the internet making the pain so much more intense, hour by hour,post after post.

    That's a very good point.

    I would also add that even most of the elder statesmen posting on this thread knew no better back then.

    They (that should be "we" as I'm one of them) had never seen Charlton at the top of the English game, just drunk in the tales of parents and grandparents re the Seed era and how good the likes of Sam Bartram, Don Welsh and "Sailor" Brown were.

    Back then it was just frustration at the apparent lack of ambition as a succession of players such as Hinton, Bailey, Bonds, Glover, Campbell and later Hales and Flanagan were sold off just as we looked as though we might be capable of making a breakthrough and returning to division 1. The Kentish Independent was more or less the only outlet though and we just accepted it. That steady decline culminated in the horrors of 1984 and I'm not talking George Orwell!

    Our decline since 2006 has been the most acute in our history. We dropped 2 divisions in 2 years and have had financial problems second only to those of the dark days of the Hulyer era.

    It is inevitable that people will feel pi**ed off!
  • Off-it, I don't want to feel like I'm a mug and I like to think, like you, that we've been treated pretty well, but you can't deny that they've used some tricks to get the money in.
  • Was losing a hell of alot of enthuasism over the last few months,and have missed a few Home games because of family illness's,but, went to the training ground this morning and saw Matt Fry & Pawel Abbott and relealized that they are playing for MY Team.
    Maybe we lost the Support and loyalty of the "True" supporters because when we got Promoted to the Premiership we were taken over by the the "glory boys" we felt that "Our" club was being lost.
    Now we seem to be getting the "Ladz".
    Myself and Sandra both left Gillingham & Southend Away last season because we're both "Short Arses" and with Everyone standing we had no chance of seing the game.

    Anyway. the point I amtrying to make is that CAFC will always be MY club, and at SL this morning I was made to feel welcome by All there.
  • [cite]Posted By: Saga Lout[/cite]Off-it, I don't want to feel like I'm a mug and I like to think, like you, that we've been treated pretty well, but you can't deny that they've used some tricks to get the money in.

    They offered incentives, I wouldn't call them tricks. Like any business you do what you can to maximise revenues - but the season ticket offers were genuine. It's not as if they deliberately didn't go up just so they didn't have to pay up.
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