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How long should a manager be given ?

edited December 2010 in General Charlton
Noticeable how in recent years managers get less and less time as Chairman adopt the Jesus Gill approach of hiring and firing at the drop of the hat.

Amazingly, since Parky took over the reigns in Nov 2008, he is already the 21st longest serving manager in the country.

Out of the 92 league clubs, there have 105 managerial changes since Parky took over.

There have been 40 managerial changes in the last 12 months alone.

The average manager now gets 1.4 years in the job.

Half of first-time managers sacked never secure another Football League managerial role.

Are there really that many BAD managers in the game, or have the demands from fans and chairman grown to completely unrealistic proportions ?

As Nolly says, discuss.....
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Comments

  • [cite]Posted By: AFKABartram[/cite]Are there really that manyBADmanagers in the game, or have the demands from fans and chairman grown to completely realistic proportions

    I think it is both. A manager is hardly going to improve with out experience of the ups and downs of running a side and the pressures that exist within football don't allow them the time to do so.

    Becoming a number two seems a good way of being given time in the job if you can adapt to whoever the next new manager is/they don't bring in their own team.
  • edited December 2010
    Fergie, Wenger and Curbs have all proved that maturity can lead to success. Both Curbs and Fergie were at one stage facing the bullet and an understanding Chairman held back and both led their clubs to equal but different success.

    1.4 years is no where near enough, I would say unless a manager makes a real pigs ear then three years is a good period. Yr 1 workign with predecessors squad, Yr two rebuilding and year three seeing the fruits of efforts.

    Society, let alone football has been instant, with the free availability fo credit (even now) we no longer have to save for things, if we want them then out come the credit card or a call on the mobile for an instant loan and this mentality permeates into football, if we're not leading by half time the manager does not know what he is doing.

    Short termism affects future development as managers are forced to worry about just results and not the development of clubs and players. Instant success can be brought by the few, long term success can be developed by the patient.
  • He is also the 3rd longest serving Charlton manager since Andy Nelson.
  • I was wondering where Parky ranked in the list throughout the league.

    It's clear to see that continuity tends to be a good thing (Fergie, Wenger, Curbs, Gradi) and that chairmen don't tend to be patient enough. Look at Big Sam - only a couple of weeks ago they were assuring him of his position and now he's gone. Same with Hughton.

    What the next couple of months holds for us is a complete and utter lottery. I suspect this is playing on the players and coaches minds too and could help explain some of the off-key performances of late.
  • Be careful not to confuse cause and effect here. Continuity on its own doesn't guarantee success. Continuity naturally occurs when a manager is successful ... you don't persist with an obviously failing manager just for the sake of continuity.

    For all the Ferguson, Wenger etc examples, think of other clubs who have had success because they changed their manager.

    Having said that, I'd agree with the three-year timeframe. Five and half years if you can get it ... but that will never happen ... will it?
  • I have little doubt in my mind that Parky will be gone either in this window or in the summer when his and most of the footballing staff's contracts run out. He isn't a terrible manager but if i was putting my money in and i had the opportunity for change i'd go for it. I tend to look at it more that managers that are good stay in jobs for a long time rather than being in a job a long time enables them to become good. I think, like in most things in life, you've either got it or you aint and for me, Parky comes up short.
  • Parky is top:


    Link
  • two full seasons seems fair, having said that if you are plummetting down the league what are you supposed to do? stand and watch?....sounds familiar....I think all managers should start down the leagues and make there way up.....the appointment criteria surrounding appointing managers is the thing that gets me.....if Pardew is anything to go by then I think I'll apply for the next managers job.....
  • I think that 2 full seasons is a fair carck of the whip, however if you get a team relegated in that year then there is a fair reason to get the sack.


    I believed Pardew had a 2 year plan and to this day i still do a plan for what i have no idea


    With Parky for example i dont know his plan he has too my knowledge stated twice that the plan was promotion.


    If it fails this time then there is no excuses.


    If new owners Do come in then i feel he will always be i month of poor results and he is a goner
  • I remember Roy Keane giving it some about a 2 year plan last year - as soon as managers start talking about x year plans then you know you've got a wrong un. Football's a pretty simple game and a good manager should be able to have an immediate, medium and long term plan and things should turn round pretty quickly.
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  • I wonder whether Parky would be viewed differently had he not been Pardew's assistant?
  • How long should a manager be given?

    If she's fit, about 9 inches.
  • [cite]Posted By: Dave Rudd[/cite]Be careful not to confuse cause and effect here. Continuity on its own doesn't guarantee success. Continuity naturally occurs when a manager is successful ... you don't persist with an obviously failing manager just for the sake of continuity.

    For all the Ferguson, Wenger etc examples, think of other clubs who have had success because they changed their manager.

    Having said that, I'd agree with the three-year timeframe. Five and half years if you can get it ... but that will never happen ... will it?

    You can't quote Fergie without accepting that he came within one game of getting the sack. A gaol by Mark Robbins against Notts Forest gave him a bit more time and the rest is history, so it has not all been plain sailing for him.
  • Normally I would give Parky till the end of the season, but with 'new' owners?

    Taxi for Parky!.........
  • I don't think you can really put a timescale on it as it is dependent on what and when the manager takes over.

    Is there any money available? How close are we to a window? What are realistic expectations / aspirations for the club?

    Parky for example, although nominally involved as Pardew's assistant, took over an almost skint club struggling near the foot of the division with morale rock bottom amongst players, board, other staff and fans alike.

    No ( or very few) managers could rectify such a dire situation overnight. Parky will have had nearly 2 1/2 years come the end of the season which is probably a reasonably fair amount of time to review his situation.
  • How long was Dario Gradi at Crewe? They can hardly be called successful (trophy wise) but he has churned out a string of players which have generated fees that have enabled the club to survive which is Success in itself.
  • edited December 2010
    [cite]Posted By: Ketman[/cite]How long was Dario Gradi at Crewe? They can hardly be called successful (trophy wise) but he has churned out a string of players which have generated fees that have enabled the club to survive which is Success in itself.

    Exactly.

    Hence my point what are realistic expectations / aspirations for the club?

    Gradi got (and kept for a few seasons) Crewe into the second tier which was a tremendous achievement for a club whose natural level had been fourth tier for most of its history until he came along.

    EDIT: Alan Curbishley was successful at Charlton even though some didn't appreciate it...
  • What is the yardstick for judging managerial success in today's game? What is the new Blackburn manager expected to achieve? What can Pardew realistically do - apart from keeping them up to serve as cannon fodder for the Big 3. The holy grail is European football - ie for most teams - the UEFA Cup - such a lot of fuss for the chance to get knocked out in the qualifying round by BATE, Metallist Kharkiv or Aris.

    Even then Man City pulled in 10,000 less for the visit of Juventus, compared to their league game against Bolton - I just don't understand the fascination with the bloated, over saturated European stuff these days.
  • A piece of string is exactly 1.75 metres long.
  • For me these are the pre-requisites of a manager:-

    1.Produce a united dressing room, with the right attitude on the pitch, and maintain unity
    2.To play in a particular method that all the players understand
    3.Assemble a group of ‘his’ players to play in ‘his’ style
    4.To prepare the group to face differing types of opponents and not be surprised by tactics
    5.To be able to adapt the formation and tactics if things aren’t working (plan A, B, C...)
    6.To have the respect and knowledge of various leagues to plug holes in the squad as they appear.
    7.To be constantly improving the squad and players to enable them to step up to next level
    Parky scores well on 1,3, & 6 but I've no idea what his style is not sure if players do. He often seems to be surprised by the performance of us or our opponents, and in adversity his only tactical change seems to be bring on a sub, often like for like. While individuals such as Waggy have improved, I'm not sure if that's down to the manager and the squad as a whole doesn't seem to be maturing. Sorry if I've turned this into another beat up Parky thread!
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  • only one attribute required in my book and thats knowing how to put together a winning team - thats done by being able to spot a good player and then put a team of them together with the right blend.
  • edited December 2010
    For me these are the pre-requisites of a manager:-

    1.Produce a united dressing room, with the right attitude on the pitch, and maintain unity
    2.To play in a particular method that all the players understand
    3.Assemble a group of ‘his’ players to play in ‘his’ style
    4.To prepare the group to face differing types of opponents and not be surprised by tactics
    5.To be able to adapt the formation and tactics if things aren’t working (plan A, B, C...)
    6.To have the respect and knowledge of various leagues to plug holes in the squad as they appear.
    7.To be constantly improving the squad and players to enable them to step up to next level
    Parky scores well on 1,3, & 6 but I've no idea what his style is not sure if players do. He often seems to be surprised by the performance of us or our opponents, and in adversity his only tactical change seems to be bring on a sub, often like for like. While individuals such as Waggy have improved, I'm not sure if that's down to the manager and the squad as a whole doesn't seem to be maturing. Sorry if I've turned this into another beat up Parky thread!
    harveys gardner quote......

    It really is a lot more complicated than that fellow.
    one rule 'win'.

    That is it... no more, no less.....
    football is a simple game, it is only the directors\agents who make it complicated!
  • [cite]Posted By: ken from bexley[/cite]football is a simple game, it is only the directors\agents who make it complicated!

    Plus the expectations of fans, media, and matchday opponents.

    o)
  • In answer to the original question, it's different at every club and every situation isn't it.

    Look at the managers here after Dowie (since we don't know why he was sacked). Les Reed took over and it was clear he was never going to be good enough even in the short time he had. As others were getting at, time doesn't turn a poor manager into a good one. Some managers will keep learning and improving, but in the case of Reed he just wasn't right for the job.

    After Reed left Pardew came in, and eventually it got to the point where he just had to go. Wouldn't have mattered how good he was in other areas, he made far too many mistakes in the transfer market. The squad was a mess in every possible way. The balance, the overall quality in a lot of positions, players that we didn't need or wanted to leave, confidence and belief of the players.

    When Parky took over, we desperately needed a clear out of the squad but that's just not possible in the January window. He needed time to show what he could do with something closer to his own squad.

    If the takeover goes through and Parky leaves in the near future, how long should a new manager get? They'd be left with a club probably in the play-offs, perhaps with some money to spend, and a squad that can really be improved with 2/3 quality signings. With hopefully new investment, despite being a division lower, that would be a much better position than the one Pardew left us/Parky took over in. If Parky goes in the next month or so, we'd have to expect instant results and promotion, compared to hoping for them in our relegation seasons. If he goes, it has to be someone clearly better, rather than a change for the sake of it.
  • [cite]Posted By: LenGlover[/cite]I don't think you can really put a timescale on it as it is dependent on what and when the manager takes over.

    The most astute comment in a thread that is full of very astute comments.

    If a team is obviously under-performing and in danger of relegation, then a change is surely the right thing , even if the bloke has only been there six months (Parky's relacement by Phil Brown at Hull, is a good example of one such sacking that worked for the club concerned).

    And if you've got big money, why not keep the door revolving until you find the right man? Spurs went though about seven managers in as many years until they got it right with Redknapp.

    But if you've no money and an average squad performing to the best of their average ability, probably not much point in changing the manager at high cost because the odds are against anyone else doing any better.

    Finally, if you want to bring it closer to home, a team that has dropped down the leagues to div three cannot afford to give any manager three tries to get out of that league. Two attempts is max. and so - providing he survives the arrival of new owners - this season really is promotion or goodbye for Parkinson.
  • [cite]Posted By: DaveMehmet[/cite]How long should a manager be given?

    If he's fit, about 9 inches.

    Gonna bang him three times eh? Impressive.
  • edited December 2010
    [cite]Posted By: incorruptible addick[/cite]
    [cite]Posted By: LenGlover[/cite]I don't think you can really put a timescale on it as it is dependent on what and when the manager takes over.

    Finally, if you want to bring it closer to home, a team that has dropped down the leagues to div three cannot afford to give any manager three tries to get out of that league. Two attempts is max. and so - providing he survives the arrival of new owners - this season really is promotion or goodbye for Parkinson.

    In agreement with both of these comments. But I've got one added doubt that just won't go away. I'm a bit weary of watching hoof and hope and defensive football. If we do somehow succeed in getting promoted and Parky stays with significant new money available for better players, will he be able to provide us with some attractive football? Is that a factor that is allowed to enter into the judgements?
  • I remember Bryan Robson saying, upon being given the boot from Middlesbro' after seven years in charge, that he was still on a learning curve. Now there are slow learners and there are slow learners, but seven years? That's taking the piss.
  • This (the quote below) concerns me. Now I'm no Alraydace lover but I guess that when a new owner is prepared to let a 'seasoned manager' go, who they liked, and then not replace him straight away it seems that not even keeping a team in mid-ish table in the Prem is good enough for some owners! I find the decision somewhat baffling to be honest! There are only 20 places available in the Prem league and 92 pro clubs, I'd take being in the top 13 compared to where we are now!!

    Quote begins "Blackburn Rovers say "it could be a couple of months" before they appoint a manager to replace Sam Allardyce.
    Allardyce was sacked by the club on Monday and Steve Kean was placed in temporary charge of the first team.
    "It's a very prestigious decision so we have to take some time," said Venkatesh Rao, one of the club's owners.
    "There's nothing personal against Sam," he added. "He's a very sweet and nice person, but we want a younger and more energetic appointment."
    Allardyce was sacked despite Blackburn sitting 13th in a very congested Premier League table, just three points behind Sunderland in seventh.
    Speaking to BBC Radio Lancashire, Rao added: "It was a very difficult decision but it was done to improve the situation at the club.
  • Redmidland, I think you have put your finger on it. The problem is that too many clubs have it in their 'business plans' that they will get into Europe/ get promotion. They bet the kitchen sink to do so. Now there are six places in Europe, but if twelve clubs and trying to get there and their managers have promised to do so or have been encouraged by owners who are dazzled by the prospect it is going to end in tears for some. The first place the disappointed owners are going to look for retribution is the manager.
    We have many clubs falling into the hands of foreign owners, who think that winning something is really easy. Hicks and Gillet must have thought that all their Christmasses had come at once when Liverpool won the Big Cup in the first season of their ownership. Time told that it wasn't always going to be like that. For every 'Glazers' there are many more 'Hicks and Gillets'. What I would like to know is whether clubs with new owners (foreign or otherwise) change their managers more often than clubs with a stable ownership.
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