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Can nice guys be winners ?

edited October 2010 in General Charlton
I notice that we all keep saying what a nice guy Parky is. In my case it is to soften the fact that I believe we must replace him to start moving forward again. Curbs will always be a legend at the Club, but I don't remember him being described as nice. In fact he fell out with a lot of players possibly to our cost. Wenger I'm sure would be a lovely Dinner guest, but try upsetting him ! Any thoughts ?

Comments

  • can't we start this thread next week, we already have the "Does anyone actually believe that parkie is a good manager" thread and this will only follow the same theme.
  • Kap 10, I was expecting someone to remind me of any ' nice guys ' who had become big winners. I thought that Bobby Robson might be mentioned, but my point is that when the going gets tough winners tend to reveal a different side to their character.
  • I think it depends what you mean. I know plenty of people in business who are 'nice guys' that are very capable of making tough decisions. Success is not built on being 'nice' or 'nasty', but more on being able to make good decisions. Toughness is a quality that does not necessarily mean that a person is nasty. If I think back to my 20's, I can think of a boss, whom I admired a great deal and respected, but I was also scared of even though he was quite a mild mannered person.

    I think the questions you are asking are: -

    Is Parky tough enough to be a manager?
    Can he make good important decisions?
    Is he single-minded?

    However, an interesting point. And my answer? I don't know. All I do know is that managing a football team must be hell.
  • Bit old, but I found this bit of research interesting.
    ..............................................

    McClaren Out of His Depth? Formula for a Good Football Manager Revealed
    As England coach Steve McClaren faces up to another defeat, the formula for what makes a successful football manager has been unveiled by researchers at Edge Hill University - and it doesn't make pretty reading for McClaren!

    L - Long term strategy/philosophy that everyone buys into
    U - Understanding players at every level
    C - Communication skills
    K - Knowledge of the game at a technical/tactical level
    I - Innovative and inspirational
    E - Experience and expectancy
    R - Recognising and recruiting talent

    The formula has been devised by Graham Smith, Programme Leader in PE and Coaching at Edge Hill University in Ormskirk, who was previously Everton's youth team coach under the reign of Howard Kendall and Colin Harvey. Smith believes he has devised a formula to construct a profile of the perfect manager and that the game's governing body should take note. "An unnamed manager was once asked what makes some managers more successful than others and he said that they were just luckier than the rest," Smith said. "Graeme Souness took it a stage further and said, 'Far better to be a lucky manager than a talented one!' My research shows that while this might have been said in jest, there is an element of truth in it. Great managers possess some or all of these qualities and the most successful managers are not just luckier, they are also better!" He also believes that as well as impeccable football credentials, the best managers also have individual character traits that make them stand out from the others in their field and which would make them just as successful in business. "There are Paternalists like Joe Mercer and Bobby Robson and Disciplinarians such as Clough and Reid whose style of management is in decline; sometimes great players make great managers, like Dalglish and O'Neill; there are Marketeers like Atkinson and Fry and Charismatics such as Mourhino and Venables, who duck and dive and bob and weave; then there's Tacticians, the best being Wenger, and Media Magnets like Docherty; finally, there are the Alchemists, the quick fixers in the Redknapp and Bassett mould. It takes all sorts to make a manager!" Smith also has one interesting conclusion from his analysis. "The one manager who overlaps all of the above is Sir Alex Ferguson - and I'm afraid that McClaren, as good a coach that he is, falls short under this formula for good management."
  • Parky can't be that nice...the way he carries on at referees.
  • I think the question around being nasty refers to the ability to discard someone's feelings in order to make the right decisison. I also think it means having an excessive response to something that you don't like as a 'warning' to othes. In Curb's case, if you mess with him he will destroy your career with Charlton (and potentially anywhere else).

    I think Parky has shown that he can make the tough decisions, he dropped Shelvey and he banished Mou2. I suspect that the players know how far they can push him, and that if they do he will punish them sufficiently.

    I think we need to be able to differentiate between the nice guy and the intelligent PR. I'm assuming that Parkinson is a nice guy because I keep reading it. I have seen him speak in public and he comes a criss very well, but then so does Alec Fergusson when it suits him. What I'm trying to say is that he might well be 'hard' enough to be successful.

    As for being a lucky manager, I agree with Souness in the short term I'd always rather be lucky. Enough luck and you don't need any talent at all. That applies to managers, footballers and every other task orientated pursuit. However, luck can run out at any point where as talent and hard work are completely reliable. You can't guarantee to earn £10m if you work hard where as you can win it on the lottery, but if you sit at home waiting to win £10m you could go hungry.

    Ultimately if Parkinson has the full backing of Murray and he is willing to make the tough decisions then the players will know it is his way or they will be out. That is surely tough enough.
  • As mentioned by Granpa you won't find too many players who will have a bad word to say about Bobby Robson. And what about the only Manager to deliver the World Cup for us - Alf Ramsey?

    I think that players look for honesty as much as anything else. But, that of course, has to be backed up with a sound footballing knowledge or else that honesty will fall on deaf ears.
  • edited October 2010
    I'm not sure whether "nice" and "nasty" are the right terms. Despot and coordinator might sum it up better.

    In any work place some bosses watch your every move forensically, criticising if you don't work the hours they work or do things the self - same way as they do. Others give you work tell you when it is required by and leave you to get on with it. In both cases if you don't perform then you are out the door.

    So it is with football managers. Clough gave his players loads of time off because he was very much a family man and felt husbands and fathers should be with their families. He would turn up twenty minutes before kick off and give the team talk and often the players hadn't seen him the rest of the week. In that respect one could argue Clough was "nice" yet if any player abused his regime his feet didn't touch the ground as he left the club.

    Digressing slightly I often used to watch Margate during our days of exile and I was privileged to meet a number of their players at the time. One, Dave Carr who is sadly no longer with us, played at Lincoln when Lennie Lawrence was there. I asked him how Lennie gained the respect of the players given that he hadn't himself played to a high standard. He answered that he knew his stuff as a coach and worked hard at making training varied and interesting (something not always done apparently). He was also straight as a die which players respected even if they didn't always like it. Most of all though, like Clough, his team talks were his greatest strength. Dave's description was that he got the "nerves jangling."

    So to try and summarise I think you can be "nice" most of the time as long as you have the moral fibre to be nasty and take the necessary action should somebody abuse it.
  • The Fed - GOAT??
  • Can nice guys be winners ?

    Nope.
    Take us and millwank for example.

    One friendly, decent well run club with history.
    And one scummy minor club with no history other than events off the pitch.

    Yet they are in the league above us?

    Nice guys get nowhere.
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  • I thought this was going to be a plea for help as someone's Mrs' has run off with a big bruiser!
  • I think it all depends on when something goes wrong. You see lots of managers who do great in their first season, riding a wave of novelty, and then the next season when the sheen is wearing off they start to struggle.

    For Parky, the players already knew him as an assistant and the club had already been on the slide for a couple of years. I think it is so hard to change the mentality of a club where failure has become the norm. He still hasn't completely suceeded at this but he has done a far better than some other managers at clubs like Man City, Bradford, Sheffield Wednesday when they were in a similiar situation.
  • edited October 2010
    [cite]Posted By: Jarman[/cite]
    Can nice guys be winners ?

    Nope.
    Take us and millwank for example.

    One friendly, decent well run club with history.
    And one scummy minor club with no history other than events off the pitch.

    Yet they are in the league above us?

    Nice guys get nowhere.

    Since we joined the league in 1921 there have been very few seasons that Millwall have played at a level above us and many where we have played at a level above them.

    Hence it could be argued by your logic that over time nice guys do considerably better!
  • Thanks for some interesting and also comprehensive input. The mention of Alf Ramsay caught my eye, he was a strict disciplinarian, still called the players Mr. Hurst etc. With him it was ' my way or the highway ', very much like Sir Alex. In fact they both made a similar mistake in taking off players when they thought they had the game won, Alf against Germany in 1970 effectively putting us out of the World Cup, and Alex against us at the Valley allowing us to rescue a point. I think for me the preference is for a Bobby Robson type, lovely pleasant personality but with a core of steel.
  • I don't think Parkinson is necessarily as 'nice' as people think. He may be very polite and a nice guy to chat to (the few times I've met him) but look at his treatment of Moutakil, rightly or wrongly he felt that Moots was not up to the job or had done something very wrong and made damn sure that he never played for us again. I'm sure that if he felt it was necessary he would give the players a bollocking but it's not his default style.
  • [cite]Posted By: Jarman[/cite]
    Can nice guys be winners ?

    Nope.
    Take us and millwank for example.

    One friendly, decent well run club with history.
    And one scummy minor club with no history other than events off the pitch.

    Yet they are in the league above us?

    Nice guys get nowhere.

    Looked at as snap shot you are right, but compare histories and maybe the number of seasons spent in the top division whatever it is called, and we comfortably out perform Millwall. Even today when they are a league higher we still get a bigger gate than them.
  • Parky ain't nice. Kingston reckons he's been banned from his local.

    Parky is BAD !
  • All i know about Parky is that you feel he cares about Charlton a great deal
  • thats enough for me jazzy whatever the results
  • [quote][cite]Posted By: nolly[/cite]thats enough for me jazzy whatever the results[/quote]


    Scarcastic lol! But i just ment you can see hes trying hes best!
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