[cite]Posted By: Dazzler21[/cite]I do not see Parky being worse or better than most of our managers over the last 30 years.
It's odd that we're in the third divison.
Stats only tell part of the story. Look at Chris Hughton's record this season against last. Is he a worse manager or is it just a higher division that's made that difference. If you isolated the 2nd division years Curbs record would be miles ahead of Parky's. He didn't get the luxury of putting out a team against Dagenham and Exeter in the league. I also think a number of people have fallen for a bit of spin: the league's not about defeats, it about points and an essentially cagey system that invites a lot of draws isn't as good as one that turns some of them into wins and a similar number into defeats.
110 posts following more dissapointing results at Tranmere and Huddersfield with similiar shite away numbers.
I wonder if there were certain people posting on those threads who didnt go to the match but wanted a moan....
I went to neither but did post a general comment on the Huddersfield thread and did state I couldn't comment on the actual game as I wasn't there. I am sure others have moaned on there who didn't go to the actual game. I don't think you can comment unless you are there. Used to be a bugbare of mine on the Charlton Live Radio show. The presenters had hardly ever been to a game but were prepared to comment that 'so and so played well' or 'x played well for the reserves and should replace y who had another poor game'. How can you comment if you were not there?
110 posts following more dissapointing results at Tranmere and Huddersfield with similiar shite away numbers.
I wonder if there were certain people posting on those threads who didnt go to the match but wanted a moan....
I went to neither but did post a general comment on the Huddersfield thread and did state I couldn't comment on the actual game as I wasn't there. I am sure others have moaned on there who didn't go to the actual game. I don't think you can comment unless you are there. Used to be a bugbare of mine on the Charlton Live Radio show. The presenters had hardly ever been to a game but were prepared to comment that 'so and so played well' or 'x played well for the reserves and should replace y who had another poor game'. How can you comment if you were not there?
A large number of national newspaper reports are filed by journalists who have not been at the game. Since when did a basis-in-fact ever become a requirement for journalism!
Games won / loss comparison is a rubbish guide because it takes nothing into account of realistic expectations.
I love Chizz's post, i think its great having such a balanced and positive view.
However, football is, rightly or wrongly a lot more short-term than it used to be.
Things come to a head a bit last week. That wasn't based off the fact of one result, it was based on the continual decline and failure to achieve our realistic expectations over several seasons, coupled with a couple of really disappointing performances and results at a time where we would have hoped to have started to see some improvement.
Had that been followed by a sound defeat at Carlisle and a similar reverse at home to Sheffield W, then i honestly don't think there would have been any choice but to make the change.
But the players rallied on Saturday and secured a decent away victory. Has it taken away all the fears and negatively ? clearly no.
But its a cracking start that has gone some way to reassure those of us in the 'unsure what's for the best' category.
The key now is to build on it. If we can then i expect the vast majority of us in the unsure category will once again throw ourselves whole-heartedly behind the regime and hopefully we might be able to build a bit of momentum.
I'm not a Parky boo boy; I think he has made some good signings and think he may come good (plus we don't have a much better option). But I do have serious doubts about him and have on the whole been unimpressed with most of what i have seen and our form / performances since he has been in charge.
Regardless of the may or may nots of the future; all the posts comparing Parkinson to Lennie Lawrence and Curbs two years into the job are utterly ridiculous as far as I am concerned. We were in a better or at least the same position that we had started two years into Lawrence and Curbs reigns; since Parky has taken over he has lead us to the worst run in the club's history (what was it something like 19 games without a win) and overseen our most comprehensive relegation. The fact he was left to "pick up Pardew's pieces" so to speak is simply not an excuse for this. To give some credit to pardew, he had to pick up the pieces of the dowie and reed era and made a good fist of survival that season, despite only taking over at Xmas rather than in November. 9 times out of 10 when a manager is sacked he is going to be inheriting a struggling and probably quite poor side; arguably the side Parkinson had actually had a reasonable level of talent (for that level) which was just heavily underperforming. But Parkinson did a terrible, terrible job and should NEVER have been given the role permanently after 2 draws and 6 losses from his first 8 games.
His performance last season is less clear cut; given that we were favourites for promotion and had a very good side when compared with the rest of the appalling division, I think a good manager would have taken us up automatically with relative ease; the absolute minimum should have been simply to qualify for the play offs. I don't think we impressed for most of last season and more often that not picked up points simply through the poor quality of our opponents, rarely excelling (I went to every home game and just under 20 away last season). Nonetheless a win is a win etc and promotion in any circumstances is rarely a foregone conclusion, and he came close to achieving that.
This season we have been largely poor; if it wasn't for a very, very fortunate home win over Notts County and an also undeserved win against MK Dons, we would be in a much worse off position. I can't comment on Saturday's performance as I wasn't there but overall this season we have not played a great deal of good, "winning" football.
I hope he will grow into the role and start to push on from Saturday and become a successful manager; but the point of my post is to emphasise that I cannot see that there is any doubt whatsoever that SO FAR, and regardless of the difficulties / restraints he has faced, he has done a BAD JOB.
[cite]Posted By: paulsturgess[/cite]I'm not a Parky boo boy [...] But Parkinson did a terrible, terrible job and should NEVER have been given the role permanently.
Althought I think this is a bit unfair...
[cite]Posted By: paulsturgess[/cite]since Parky has taken over he has lead us to the worst run in the club's history (what was it something like 19 games without a win)
... since Pardew was the manager at the start of that run.
And to say that...
[cite]Posted By: paulsturgess[/cite]We were in a better or at least the same position that we had started two years into Lawrence and Curbs reigns
... is nonsense. Two years into Lawrence's reign, we were about to be wound up in the High Court.
And your argument that
[cite]Posted By: paulsturgess[/cite]The fact he was left to "pick up Pardew's pieces" so to speak is simply not an excuse
makes sense. Until you follow it up with:
[cite]Posted By: paulsturgess[/cite]To give some credit to pardew, he had to pick up the pieces of the dowie and reed era
Still, at least you're not one of Parky's boo boys though.
[cite]Posted By: paulsturgess[/cite]9 times out of 10 when a manager is sacked he is going to be inheriting a struggling and probably quite poor side; arguably the side Parkinson had actually had a reasonable level of talent (for that level) which was just heavily underperforming. But Parkinson did a terrible, terrible job and should NEVER have been given the role permanently after 2 draws and 6 losses from his first 8 games.
Other day in the Ian Holloway thread I looked back over the players Parky had at the time. Two years on it doesn't look like a Championship quality squad at all. Didn't have enough defenders (or the quality), midfield was unbalanced in both types of players and positions, the group of strikers were far from good enough, no obvious partnership either.
Remember Varney was then sold to bring some money in. Fulham recalled Bouazza before sending him to Birmingham on loan. Our only true defensive midfielder in Semedo was injured for the rest of the season in early January.
Last season the squad was still unbalanced, and we had 5 Pardew signings that we'd have sold if anyone wanted them, McLeod, Dickson, Fleetwood, Moutaouakil and Sinclair. They added anything from £500k-£1m or so to the wage bill.
We went until February without a left winger, and it was said Parky tried to sign at least one of Reid, Puncheon and Jackson (and maybe others) in the summer.
Leeds fans could argue "a good manager would have taken us up automatically with relative ease" even more than us. Yet if at least 3 clubs could claim their squads are that good, then it's not going to be easy with there only being 2 automatic promotion places.
to respond to Chizz's very selective and tabloid-journalist way of taking my quotes out of context:
I'm not a Parky boo boy means I haven't booed at any matches and have never once called for him to be sacked - however I did not believe he should have been given the job in the first place because Murray specifically said the decision would be made on how he did as caretaker, and he did appallingly. And you have removed the "terrible job" from the adjoining part of the point "at keeping us up". So if you want to try and undermine my point with that then I would appreciate a simple one-word, yes or no answer to the question "did he do a terrible job at keeping us up?". Don't worry, you don't need to respond, as we both know the answer.
re: the club's worst ever run, just checked the club's website, we had not won for 8 league games when he took over, that then went on for a further 10 games. So whilst I do not deny Pardew was also partly responsible, clearly he had a fair part to play in that run... 10 games without a win = unquestionably a "bad job".
Yes we were about to be wound up two years into Lawrence's reign, but was that down to him? No, that was backroom stuff which had obviously been building from before his reign. In terms of the football side of things (which I think is mainly what concerns the manager of the team) he still managed to keep us in the middle of the same division we were in when he took over despite the context of the afore-mentioned winding up order etc, rather than relegate us to a level we had not been for thirty-odd years having been in the top flight only 18months previously.
And finally - regarding the comment about giving Pardew credit. Again quoting out of context, or you are simply struggling to follow the simple logic of the point I am making; i.e. those who argue that Parkinson is somehow absolved from responsibility for our relegation because he took over such a dire situation should look at the example of Pardew who, whilst managing to do an ultimately awful job with us, did well for the first 6months having taken over an equally dire situation.
Stupid and pointless post from you there Chizz as far as I can see.
By stating that he is not a "Parky Boo Boy" I assume he means he is not the type to activley boo at games. This is a good thing and should be encouraged, it doesn't mean that he has to be a "Parky Lover" and never have a negative word to say about his management.
To also compare the football on the pitch to what happend to the club at the High Court is unfair. Ths thread is purely about managers and the reasons we are not at the high court being wound up now is not to do with football managers but with the club's administrative side.
And you he is simply making comaprions to Parky picking up the peices and managers before him having to do so because this is the point he is counter.
Still, good to see you taking an open-minded approach to the objections...
[cite]Posted By: Scoham[/cite]Leeds fans could argue "a good manager would have taken us up automatically with relative ease" even more than us. Yet if at least 3 clubs could claim their squads are that good, then it's not going to be easy with there only being 2 automatic promotion places.
Agreed, hence:
[cite]Posted By: paulsturgess[/cite]His performance last season is less clear cut
and
[cite]Posted By: paulsturgess[/cite]Nonetheless a win is a win etc and promotion in any circumstances is rarely a foregone conclusion, and he came close to achieving that.
FLOYD MONTANA wrote:
How much better than getting all flustered, Red, would it be for you to realise you are supporting a team in the THIRD division.
What do you expect?? What manager would produce football to match your expectations on this budget?
And that is a rhetorical question, as I couldnt stand another thread of ''Billy Bonds, Martin O Neill, Gazza, Ronald Mc Donald'' for our next manager nonsense
It is never going to be pretty. It is a long slow uphill climb, get used to it
RESPONSE:
Firstly, I am not getting flustered at all thanks! I think I realise we are in the third tier for the second season in a row - but surely that can't be the basis for your argument! What do you expect then?
Are you really saying that you buy a season ticket expecting to watch crap football because we are not in the Premier league anymore? When did being in the Premier league/Championship mean that you can then, and only then, play good football. I have watched school and pub teams that play really good football too but then I suppose that must be impossible according to your wisdom?
I think I, and others (but obviously not you) realise that there is some very good football played in league One and MOST of the teams actually like to get the ball down and play football which to answer your next point is what I expect and want from Charlton actually. There are times at The Valley when the opposition are walking rings around us and our players are chasing shadows - have you not seen this - do you actually go to the games?
There are plenty of managers in League One (this season and last) who have produced attractive football that would meet my expectations for Charlton with a budget less than we have had - you seem to act like a know-it-all but actually you don't really know what you are talking about. Why don't you get used to the fact that being in League One does not mean hoof-it-up-the-park football to get out of the league: last season Leeds, Norwich and Millwall played some great, great football!
Should add I'm not saying Parky was good enough to keep us up, or that it was all Pardew's fault. Just really making the point that a club in the decline, with a big squad with no confidence at all, players who don't want to be there, it can be very hard to turn things around.
Comparing the Prem relegation with the Champ one, we actually only ended up with slightly more points per game in the Prem season.
This is a great thread on a very relevant question....in my opinion I would say that Parky is a bad manager. A nice guy for sure though and I would be interested to know what might have happened to him had he had the same lack of success but with, say, Neil Warnocks personality? The nicer the guy the easier it is to make excuses for them.
I was one of the few people who actually felt that Pardew should have been given longer. I accept with hindsight that I was probably wrong but I still think he'd have made a better fist of keeping us up than Parky did. If you look at our relegation season and the number of points we lost under Parky after scoring first you will see that this would've been enough to easily keep us up.
A few people have suggested that individual errors are not down to the manager. Well I am of the view that they are - to a point. i think that if one player makes an individual error which leads to a goal then something (tactics-wise) needs to change in order to prevent the lack of confidence from spreading to his teammates; or to perhaps just provide more protection to an inexperienced player (Mambo at Chesterfield I think).
Also people have suggested that Parky's performance is hampered by a lack of resources. Despite having got rid of all the high earning passengers are we still not one of the higher payers in this league? Do we have less resources than Bournemouth, Peterborough, Colchester, MK Dons, Carlisle and Rochdale? They're all above us in the league. We ought to be able to attract players who are good enough to get us out of league one. Assuming that the players are good enough then the rest has to be down to the manager.
Comparing managers by their win/loss record proves very little since it doesn't take into account the levels of expectation and if the team at the time was punching above or below its weight. Curbs and Lennie were successful not for the number of games they won but because they got us competing at a level beyond our resources. Under Parky we are in my opinion competing below our resources.
Exactly two years into Lennie Lawrence's career as Charlton manager, we had achieved precisely nothing, dropped lower in the table than when his predecessor had been sacked and went on the following run:
Boro 1-0 Charlton - LOST
Charlton 1-2 Fulham - LOST
Charlton 1-1 Shrewsbury - DREW
Barnsley 1-0 Charlton - LOST
Charlton 2-3 Leeds - LOST
Sheff Utd 1-1 Charlton - DREW
Charlton 2-1 Birmingham - WON
Blackburn 3-0 Charlton - LOST
Charlton 1-1 Carlisle - DREW
Oxford 5-0 Charlton - LOST
Charlton 1-3 Man City - LOST
Palace 2-1 Charlton - LOST
At the end of that terrible run, we were in 20th place, in the relegation zone, having won one game in the previous 12.
Would anyone argue that the subsequent couple of decades would have been better if we had sacked Lennie at that point?
(This weekend's win at Carlisle was our 5th in the last 12).
Incorruptible Addick said of Lawrence and Curbishley: "Don't think any of them got us relegated did they?"
Which i thought was a bit silly. Lawrence in 1989-1990 and Curbishley a decade later? Did I miss something!?
I'm really sad that we've become a club like any other in regards to standing by our man. Sometimes, as with Pards and Dowie, there's no choice to be had. But Parky? Is he a good manager? In my eyes, absolutely. With just enough funds to buy one player, he's put together a full squad that looks capable of remaining in touch with a promotion spot for the duration, giving us a shot of having a run-in that will get us promoted. That, for me, is all he could ever have done this season. I hope we stick with him and he proves the naysayers wrong. If only because we're royally screwed if not.
P.S. Kudos to Chizz and co. for some excellent posts
In addition we have a large ground, 10,000 odd season ticket holders and excellent training facilities. Hence ability to attract better free or loan players.
I wasn't even born when Lawrence took charge so can't really comment on that 12 game run and don't really know exactly what the circumstances were, what the situation with playing personnel was etc etc but the fact that Lennie Lawrence oversaw a poor run but still went on to be a good manager just simply does not mean that Parkinson will be! And besides that, I still think there is some chance he could go on to do well as you seem so convinced; my post was simply to emphasise that so far he's done a bad job.
Almost nobody in League One has resources...most players are signed for free so it's just wages (with signing on fees not that much higher than with players who have been purchased) and we're paying as much as anyone in League One as far as i know.
Regarding Lennie of course it wouldn't have been better if we'd sacked him then - but the point is the board at the time were happy that we maintained our status (which we went on to do) - because that was about as good as we were going to do at that time.
I think Parky is a perfectly decent manager, not great but by no means the worst out there, or even the worst we've ever had, as some of the comparisons of wins etc show.Of course stats don't prove anything but then there are no statistics to show squad unity/solidarity and as far as I'm concerned this squad is the most cohesive and united (though certainly not the most talented) since Pardew took us down from the Prem, and arguably even since Dowie.
Are there better managers out there? Of course. Are there managers appreciably and undeniably better than Parky and who could (or would) do any better with the kind of resources we have? Hardly any. I can see Parky here for several seasons to come.
All I was trying to show with the stats is Parky has started neither worse or better than MOST of our previous over the last 30 years in fact the board felt so strongly they sacked 3/4 within 15-20 games!
if murray was so sure about parky , surley he wouldn't let him run his contract down to the end
lets not forget minty wasn't happy with curbs having a year left on his contract and decided we'd be better off giving a new manager mintys own choice of coaching staff and deciding after 12 games that he wasn't the man ..... ridiculous
Lennie is my favourite Charlton manager but comparisons are odious and get you nowhere because circumstances are a lot different.Both managers had to rely on shoestring budgets although didnt Lennie get some money to buy Pearson,Reid and Humphrey at the start of our incredible 85 86 promotion season?Its been a long time I might be wrong.Maybe someone will enlighten.I seem to remember starting with a new and much better Charlton that season.
[cite]Posted By: JiMMy 85[/cite]Incorruptible Addick said of Lawrence and Curbishley: "Don't think any of them got us relegated did they?"
Which i thought was a bit silly. Lawrence in 1989-1990 and Curbishley a decade later? Did I miss something!?
Jimmy, yes you did miss something. You didn't read Chizz's post or my reply properly. Please try to keep up !
Chizz's question was specifically about the first two years that Seed, Lawrence and Curbishley were in charge and a comparison of those initial periods with Parky's first two years.
I answered that specific question about the records of those managers in their first two years.
None of them got us relegated in the period under discussion - with the exception of Parky.
So please don't call me ''silly'' and cite as evidence of my idiocy something that happened six or seven years after the period we were discussing!
Almost everyone will get relegated at some point - Lennie and Curbs certainly did. Jimmy Seed didn't get Charlton relegated, but he did get sacked and then went to Millwall and got them relegated instead (they had to apply for re-election - oh, what joy there musty have been in SE7 that season!)
Enoch Powell said that all political careers end in failure. With very few exceptions, the same is true of being a football manager...
[cite]Posted By: JiMMy 85[/cite]Incorruptible Addick said of Lawrence and Curbishley: "Don't think any of them got us relegated did they?"
Which i thought was a bit silly. Lawrence in 1989-1990 and Curbishley a decade later? Did I miss something!?
I'm really sad that we've become a club like any other in regards to standing by our man. Sometimes, as with Pards and Dowie, there's no choice to be had. But Parky? Is he a good manager? In my eyes, absolutely. With just enough funds to buy one player, he's put together a full squad that looks capable of remaining in touch with a promotion spot for the duration, giving us a shot of having a run-in that will get us promoted. That, for me, is all he could ever have done this season. I hope we stick with him and he proves the naysayers wrong. If only because we're royally screwed if not.
P.S. Kudos to Chizz and co. for some excellent posts
P.P.S I wish I knew how to quote.
See, once again the issue of how much time we have available has been overlooked. You make the point that Dowie and Pardew had to go and I'd ask the question what's different about Parky then? The previous two were sacked because we couldn't afford to be relegated but equally we simply cannot afford to stay another year in this division. Isn't the question not really is he a good manager but is Parky good enough to give us the very best opportunity to get up this year? Parky has some great qualities don't get me wrong but I don't think we have the time to find out whether he can get the rest of his act together and, lets face it, he is not new to the game having managed at two other clubs.
FWIW I also think the post earlier argueing that some of the pro-Parky/Parky's a good manager views are driven by a wish to appear to be a more loyal supporter than those who feel he's had his time.
Lets hope for all our sakes though that that Parky does turn out to be half as good for CAFC as Lennie or Curbs.
Comments
Stats only tell part of the story. Look at Chris Hughton's record this season against last. Is he a worse manager or is it just a higher division that's made that difference. If you isolated the 2nd division years Curbs record would be miles ahead of Parky's. He didn't get the luxury of putting out a team against Dagenham and Exeter in the league. I also think a number of people have fallen for a bit of spin: the league's not about defeats, it about points and an essentially cagey system that invites a lot of draws isn't as good as one that turns some of them into wins and a similar number into defeats.
I went to neither but did post a general comment on the Huddersfield thread and did state I couldn't comment on the actual game as I wasn't there. I am sure others have moaned on there who didn't go to the actual game. I don't think you can comment unless you are there. Used to be a bugbare of mine on the Charlton Live Radio show. The presenters had hardly ever been to a game but were prepared to comment that 'so and so played well' or 'x played well for the reserves and should replace y who had another poor game'. How can you comment if you were not there?
A large number of national newspaper reports are filed by journalists who have not been at the game. Since when did a basis-in-fact ever become a requirement for journalism!
I love Chizz's post, i think its great having such a balanced and positive view.
However, football is, rightly or wrongly a lot more short-term than it used to be.
Things come to a head a bit last week. That wasn't based off the fact of one result, it was based on the continual decline and failure to achieve our realistic expectations over several seasons, coupled with a couple of really disappointing performances and results at a time where we would have hoped to have started to see some improvement.
Had that been followed by a sound defeat at Carlisle and a similar reverse at home to Sheffield W, then i honestly don't think there would have been any choice but to make the change.
But the players rallied on Saturday and secured a decent away victory. Has it taken away all the fears and negatively ? clearly no.
But its a cracking start that has gone some way to reassure those of us in the 'unsure what's for the best' category.
The key now is to build on it. If we can then i expect the vast majority of us in the unsure category will once again throw ourselves whole-heartedly behind the regime and hopefully we might be able to build a bit of momentum.
Regardless of the may or may nots of the future; all the posts comparing Parkinson to Lennie Lawrence and Curbs two years into the job are utterly ridiculous as far as I am concerned. We were in a better or at least the same position that we had started two years into Lawrence and Curbs reigns; since Parky has taken over he has lead us to the worst run in the club's history (what was it something like 19 games without a win) and overseen our most comprehensive relegation. The fact he was left to "pick up Pardew's pieces" so to speak is simply not an excuse for this. To give some credit to pardew, he had to pick up the pieces of the dowie and reed era and made a good fist of survival that season, despite only taking over at Xmas rather than in November. 9 times out of 10 when a manager is sacked he is going to be inheriting a struggling and probably quite poor side; arguably the side Parkinson had actually had a reasonable level of talent (for that level) which was just heavily underperforming. But Parkinson did a terrible, terrible job and should NEVER have been given the role permanently after 2 draws and 6 losses from his first 8 games.
His performance last season is less clear cut; given that we were favourites for promotion and had a very good side when compared with the rest of the appalling division, I think a good manager would have taken us up automatically with relative ease; the absolute minimum should have been simply to qualify for the play offs. I don't think we impressed for most of last season and more often that not picked up points simply through the poor quality of our opponents, rarely excelling (I went to every home game and just under 20 away last season). Nonetheless a win is a win etc and promotion in any circumstances is rarely a foregone conclusion, and he came close to achieving that.
This season we have been largely poor; if it wasn't for a very, very fortunate home win over Notts County and an also undeserved win against MK Dons, we would be in a much worse off position. I can't comment on Saturday's performance as I wasn't there but overall this season we have not played a great deal of good, "winning" football.
I hope he will grow into the role and start to push on from Saturday and become a successful manager; but the point of my post is to emphasise that I cannot see that there is any doubt whatsoever that SO FAR, and regardless of the difficulties / restraints he has faced, he has done a BAD JOB.
Althought I think this is a bit unfair... ... since Pardew was the manager at the start of that run.
And to say that... ... is nonsense. Two years into Lawrence's reign, we were about to be wound up in the High Court.
And your argument that makes sense. Until you follow it up with:
Still, at least you're not one of Parky's boo boys though.
Remember Varney was then sold to bring some money in. Fulham recalled Bouazza before sending him to Birmingham on loan. Our only true defensive midfielder in Semedo was injured for the rest of the season in early January.
Last season the squad was still unbalanced, and we had 5 Pardew signings that we'd have sold if anyone wanted them, McLeod, Dickson, Fleetwood, Moutaouakil and Sinclair. They added anything from £500k-£1m or so to the wage bill.
We went until February without a left winger, and it was said Parky tried to sign at least one of Reid, Puncheon and Jackson (and maybe others) in the summer.
Leeds fans could argue "a good manager would have taken us up automatically with relative ease" even more than us. Yet if at least 3 clubs could claim their squads are that good, then it's not going to be easy with there only being 2 automatic promotion places.
I'm not a Parky boo boy means I haven't booed at any matches and have never once called for him to be sacked - however I did not believe he should have been given the job in the first place because Murray specifically said the decision would be made on how he did as caretaker, and he did appallingly. And you have removed the "terrible job" from the adjoining part of the point "at keeping us up". So if you want to try and undermine my point with that then I would appreciate a simple one-word, yes or no answer to the question "did he do a terrible job at keeping us up?". Don't worry, you don't need to respond, as we both know the answer.
re: the club's worst ever run, just checked the club's website, we had not won for 8 league games when he took over, that then went on for a further 10 games. So whilst I do not deny Pardew was also partly responsible, clearly he had a fair part to play in that run... 10 games without a win = unquestionably a "bad job".
Yes we were about to be wound up two years into Lawrence's reign, but was that down to him? No, that was backroom stuff which had obviously been building from before his reign. In terms of the football side of things (which I think is mainly what concerns the manager of the team) he still managed to keep us in the middle of the same division we were in when he took over despite the context of the afore-mentioned winding up order etc, rather than relegate us to a level we had not been for thirty-odd years having been in the top flight only 18months previously.
And finally - regarding the comment about giving Pardew credit. Again quoting out of context, or you are simply struggling to follow the simple logic of the point I am making; i.e. those who argue that Parkinson is somehow absolved from responsibility for our relegation because he took over such a dire situation should look at the example of Pardew who, whilst managing to do an ultimately awful job with us, did well for the first 6months having taken over an equally dire situation.
Stupid and pointless post from you there Chizz as far as I can see.
By stating that he is not a "Parky Boo Boy" I assume he means he is not the type to activley boo at games. This is a good thing and should be encouraged, it doesn't mean that he has to be a "Parky Lover" and never have a negative word to say about his management.
To also compare the football on the pitch to what happend to the club at the High Court is unfair. Ths thread is purely about managers and the reasons we are not at the high court being wound up now is not to do with football managers but with the club's administrative side.
And you he is simply making comaprions to Parky picking up the peices and managers before him having to do so because this is the point he is counter.
Still, good to see you taking an open-minded approach to the objections...
Agreed, hence:
and
How much better than getting all flustered, Red, would it be for you to realise you are supporting a team in the THIRD division.
What do you expect?? What manager would produce football to match your expectations on this budget?
And that is a rhetorical question, as I couldnt stand another thread of ''Billy Bonds, Martin O Neill, Gazza, Ronald Mc Donald'' for our next manager nonsense
It is never going to be pretty. It is a long slow uphill climb, get used to it
RESPONSE:
Firstly, I am not getting flustered at all thanks! I think I realise we are in the third tier for the second season in a row - but surely that can't be the basis for your argument! What do you expect then?
Are you really saying that you buy a season ticket expecting to watch crap football because we are not in the Premier league anymore? When did being in the Premier league/Championship mean that you can then, and only then, play good football. I have watched school and pub teams that play really good football too but then I suppose that must be impossible according to your wisdom?
I think I, and others (but obviously not you) realise that there is some very good football played in league One and MOST of the teams actually like to get the ball down and play football which to answer your next point is what I expect and want from Charlton actually. There are times at The Valley when the opposition are walking rings around us and our players are chasing shadows - have you not seen this - do you actually go to the games?
There are plenty of managers in League One (this season and last) who have produced attractive football that would meet my expectations for Charlton with a budget less than we have had - you seem to act like a know-it-all but actually you don't really know what you are talking about. Why don't you get used to the fact that being in League One does not mean hoof-it-up-the-park football to get out of the league: last season Leeds, Norwich and Millwall played some great, great football!
Your argument is, frankly, naive!
And judging by the number of typos in my post - it didn't take much intelligence to understand you!
Should add I'm not saying Parky was good enough to keep us up, or that it was all Pardew's fault. Just really making the point that a club in the decline, with a big squad with no confidence at all, players who don't want to be there, it can be very hard to turn things around.
Comparing the Prem relegation with the Champ one, we actually only ended up with slightly more points per game in the Prem season.
I was one of the few people who actually felt that Pardew should have been given longer. I accept with hindsight that I was probably wrong but I still think he'd have made a better fist of keeping us up than Parky did. If you look at our relegation season and the number of points we lost under Parky after scoring first you will see that this would've been enough to easily keep us up.
A few people have suggested that individual errors are not down to the manager. Well I am of the view that they are - to a point. i think that if one player makes an individual error which leads to a goal then something (tactics-wise) needs to change in order to prevent the lack of confidence from spreading to his teammates; or to perhaps just provide more protection to an inexperienced player (Mambo at Chesterfield I think).
Also people have suggested that Parky's performance is hampered by a lack of resources. Despite having got rid of all the high earning passengers are we still not one of the higher payers in this league? Do we have less resources than Bournemouth, Peterborough, Colchester, MK Dons, Carlisle and Rochdale? They're all above us in the league. We ought to be able to attract players who are good enough to get us out of league one. Assuming that the players are good enough then the rest has to be down to the manager.
Comparing managers by their win/loss record proves very little since it doesn't take into account the levels of expectation and if the team at the time was punching above or below its weight. Curbs and Lennie were successful not for the number of games they won but because they got us competing at a level beyond our resources. Under Parky we are in my opinion competing below our resources.
Boro 1-0 Charlton - LOST
Charlton 1-2 Fulham - LOST
Charlton 1-1 Shrewsbury - DREW
Barnsley 1-0 Charlton - LOST
Charlton 2-3 Leeds - LOST
Sheff Utd 1-1 Charlton - DREW
Charlton 2-1 Birmingham - WON
Blackburn 3-0 Charlton - LOST
Charlton 1-1 Carlisle - DREW
Oxford 5-0 Charlton - LOST
Charlton 1-3 Man City - LOST
Palace 2-1 Charlton - LOST
At the end of that terrible run, we were in 20th place, in the relegation zone, having won one game in the previous 12.
Would anyone argue that the subsequent couple of decades would have been better if we had sacked Lennie at that point?
(This weekend's win at Carlisle was our 5th in the last 12).
compared to most of the Clubs in League 1 we do. Or are you saying that Rochdale, for example, have a bigger playing budget than us ?
Which i thought was a bit silly. Lawrence in 1989-1990 and Curbishley a decade later? Did I miss something!?
I'm really sad that we've become a club like any other in regards to standing by our man. Sometimes, as with Pards and Dowie, there's no choice to be had. But Parky? Is he a good manager? In my eyes, absolutely. With just enough funds to buy one player, he's put together a full squad that looks capable of remaining in touch with a promotion spot for the duration, giving us a shot of having a run-in that will get us promoted. That, for me, is all he could ever have done this season. I hope we stick with him and he proves the naysayers wrong. If only because we're royally screwed if not.
P.S. Kudos to Chizz and co. for some excellent posts
P.P.S I wish I knew how to quote.
I wasn't even born when Lawrence took charge so can't really comment on that 12 game run and don't really know exactly what the circumstances were, what the situation with playing personnel was etc etc but the fact that Lennie Lawrence oversaw a poor run but still went on to be a good manager just simply does not mean that Parkinson will be! And besides that, I still think there is some chance he could go on to do well as you seem so convinced; my post was simply to emphasise that so far he's done a bad job.
Regarding Lennie of course it wouldn't have been better if we'd sacked him then - but the point is the board at the time were happy that we maintained our status (which we went on to do) - because that was about as good as we were going to do at that time.
Are there better managers out there? Of course. Are there managers appreciably and undeniably better than Parky and who could (or would) do any better with the kind of resources we have? Hardly any. I can see Parky here for several seasons to come.
All I was trying to show with the stats is Parky has started neither worse or better than MOST of our previous over the last 30 years in fact the board felt so strongly they sacked 3/4 within 15-20 games!
lets not forget minty wasn't happy with curbs having a year left on his contract and decided we'd be better off giving a new manager mintys own choice of coaching staff and deciding after 12 games that he wasn't the man ..... ridiculous
Jimmy, yes you did miss something. You didn't read Chizz's post or my reply properly. Please try to keep up !
Chizz's question was specifically about the first two years that Seed, Lawrence and Curbishley were in charge and a comparison of those initial periods with Parky's first two years.
I answered that specific question about the records of those managers in their first two years.
None of them got us relegated in the period under discussion - with the exception of Parky.
So please don't call me ''silly'' and cite as evidence of my idiocy something that happened six or seven years after the period we were discussing!
Almost everyone will get relegated at some point - Lennie and Curbs certainly did. Jimmy Seed didn't get Charlton relegated, but he did get sacked and then went to Millwall and got them relegated instead (they had to apply for re-election - oh, what joy there musty have been in SE7 that season!)
Enoch Powell said that all political careers end in failure. With very few exceptions, the same is true of being a football manager...
See, once again the issue of how much time we have available has been overlooked. You make the point that Dowie and Pardew had to go and I'd ask the question what's different about Parky then? The previous two were sacked because we couldn't afford to be relegated but equally we simply cannot afford to stay another year in this division. Isn't the question not really is he a good manager but is Parky good enough to give us the very best opportunity to get up this year? Parky has some great qualities don't get me wrong but I don't think we have the time to find out whether he can get the rest of his act together and, lets face it, he is not new to the game having managed at two other clubs.
FWIW I also think the post earlier argueing that some of the pro-Parky/Parky's a good manager views are driven by a wish to appear to be a more loyal supporter than those who feel he's had his time.
Lets hope for all our sakes though that that Parky does turn out to be half as good for CAFC as Lennie or Curbs.