[cite]Posted By: Oggy Red[/cite]On the other hand, if it is made with 'free range/organic', that label will be plastered all over the product to entice shoppers to buy.
So it's probably safe to assume that all eggs are 'battery hen/caged' unless otherwise labelled.
OK, so if the 'forced' consumption of halal meat was a big issue for ordinary people (as the Daily Mail claim to be the case), companies would be sure to mention that their meat was killed by Western means, because that would increase their market. Right?
So if you care about an animal's death (but, curiously, not its life or the fact that its life is ended prematurely), assume that all meat is halal/kosher unless otherwise labelled.
I'll make a guess (just a guess) .......that manufacturers will use the cheapest source of ingredients or product, in order to maximise profits.
As a generalisation, the British public are typically very apathetic about issues, unless they are provoked (usually by the media). They would rather moan about it and watch Eastenders, than actually do something about it.
Businesses know this.
If Halal meat is the cheapest source, then that's what they'll use ......in the same way that battery hens are used, as they will provide the cheapest eggs/ frozen chicken or whatever.
The manufacturer will have no scruples, unless the public/government force him to do otherwise.
Only gardeners grow food for pleasure; business are only in business to make a profit.
Yes, Oggy, but that shows this isn't an issue for the average British person.
If it was an issue, manufacturers would emphasise when they use non-halal meat, because that would boost sales of their products. They might even charge a premium for 'stunned meat', like they do now for organic and free range. Manufacturers don't have to produce organic food, but some do because there's money to be made, and some people care.
People don't care.
How thoughtful of the Daily Mail to try to whip up a frenzy.
I'll think you'll find most people in the UK don't know, rather than don't care.
There will be some people who don't care, as you say ........but a huge number will be horrified that the animal that becomes their dinner suffers in agony and fear, before it finally dies.
Many people have pets, and have always been taught that animals killed for meat are slaughtered humanely and painlessly.
Unless someone tells them otherwise.
Of course, the Daily Mail wants to whip up a frenzy.
They might be a dirge of a newspaper, but they are a business - and more sales mean more advertisers buy space.
And more profit.
Don't know, don't care, it's all the same. If people have scruples about slaughterhouses, they should check them out. I couldn't care less how meat is slaughtered, but if I did have standards, I'd do my research.
I don't understand the importance people put in the manner of death. I mean, these are animals that are created, bred and slaughtered as and when we please for our own enjoyment and subject largely to price restrictions, rather than any particular care for the animals.
But if people care, they should do their research. It's not like the Daily Mail's coverage was exhaustive anyway.
I'm quite frankly stunned at the apathy towards the use of 'halal' meat.
1. Do you not really care how animals are killed?
I think that if everyone saw the killing with their own eyes then over 90% would object. Just because you haven't seen it doesn't make it any less cruel and horrific.
Also I'd like to know how many of the people on here who claim apathy, have or have had a domestic animal.
2. Do you also not care that an ethnic minority have changed the entire means that meat is produced in the UK?
Why should a minority's beliefs so drastically change the way that anything (regardless of whether it's meat production or not) is done in the country?
Why do you care more for the beliefs of Muslims than for the welfare of animals?
Why do you agree that we should disregard all the laws and recommendations that have been passed in the UK for the benefit of a minority's religious beliefs?
If the apathy on this board is a true indication of British society then I think that my Dad (whose opinions are often exagerrated IMO) may be right when he says that we will be living in a Muslim country by Sharia law within 50 years.
[cite]Posted By: jimmymelrose[/cite]1. Do you not really care how animals are killed?
2. Do you also not care that an ethnic minority have changed the entire means that meat is produced in the UK?
1. Nope. I only care that they're killed in time for my dinner.
I don't have an animal, but my flatmate has a cat, and grew up with all sorts of animals, including pets, 'working' animals and animals that were killed for meat (as a byproduct of having chickens, you will inevitably have too many roosters at some time).
2. Not at all. Anyway, they're not changing the way all meat is produced, are they?
[cite]Posted By: IA[/cite]
I don't understand the importance people put in the manner of death. I mean, these are animals that are created, bred and slaughtered as and when we please for our own enjoyment
You make your point of view very clear.
But if you've ever had a pet like a cat or a dog, you'll know that your animal is a sentient creature ...... it's capable of a degree of thought, it has a huge amount of sensitivity ...... and when hurt feels pain just as intensly as we do.
People occasionally keep an orphaned lamb, rear it by hand and it becomes a pet, showing it's owner great affection.
Pigs also. When my local allotments were started a year ago, a pig was 'lent' to rotivate the ground, rooting out pernicious weeds, turning over the soil and manuring it ready for growing. She was soon christened 'Camilla' and became a great friend to all the gardeners, who would bring scraps, leftover dinners and fruit to give her a treat. And afterwards, she would flutter her very human looking eyelashes as she looked at you and make all sorts of contented sounds as she was stroked and fussed.
One day, she dug up a piece of rusty wire buried in the ground and cut her foot badly, and made a terrible wailing sound as she was obviously in pain. When she had to be put down (humanely) .... all those at the allotment were very sad.
They felt that they'd lost a friend, in the same way as if their own dog had been put down.
I tell this story only to point out that animals are capable of thought, affection and feelings the same as humans ......and if they are to be bred and killed for meat, then why should they die in fear and agony?
As a veggie I think it's a bit odd to get worked up about the way an animal is slaughtered, without questioning the logic behind killing animals to eat them in the first place - if animals are sufficiently intelligent that they are capable of suffering, let's just not kill them eh?
Iceland are quite good for cheap veggie food so I'll stick up for them. I hope they launch a one pound falafel pizza...
Oggy, as said above, I have had pets of all kinds, as well as 'working' type animals. My flatmate's cat has taken a fondness to me, which means I spend my weekend mornings scraping as many hairs as possible from my clothes and bed.
Something tells me you never intended on killing Camilla and eating her...? If I'm right about that, she was a pet, just like a dog.
Maybe I would find halal slaughter sickening, but it's just as likely I'd find "Western, civilised" slaughter sickening too.
Isn't there a type of gelatine-type thing that's made from animals in some way? Heaven knows why halal is the route they go down rather than vegetarian
[cite]Posted By: IA[/cite]Something tells me you never intended on killing Camilla and eating her...? If I'm right about that, she was a pet, just like a dog.
Camilla's sausagemeat now, IA.
Although her time at the allotment seemed to be a very happy time for her, where she revelled in being the star of the show.
She wasn't our pig (she belonged to a neighbouring farmer), so she wasn't ours to eat. In effect, she was a working animal like a shire horse or sheepdog.
But she showed her personality, her warmth and affection for people, her funny llttle thought processes - and was sensitive and felt pain. Not much difference from us really.
I've never been to an abbottoir, and neither would I want to. As you say, all slaughter seems sickening.
Anyway, good discussion IA ....... I'm off out for a pint in a mo, so enjoy your evening.
I was talking about the exploitation of the poor with "cheap" shit that they mass $anufacture and sell at a massive loss per unit just to get punters in the door,
And these are the people that will lap it up too - and why not if its cheap?
Ralk about halal meat all you like - different issue in my view - but otherwise the fact that this shit gets mass produced and chucked out without quesion should surely cause concern?
I ain't dictating to anyone, but if a fella was injecting H four times a day I'd tell him to stop. Death pizza isn't H, but fuck me the people that "take" it week on week are being weaned onto this shit and this thread proves they don't know it.
[cite]Posted By: SaoPauloAddick[/cite]As a veggie I think it's a bit odd to get worked up about the way an animal is slaughtered, without questioning the logic behind killing animals to eat them in the first place - if animals are sufficiently intelligent that they are capable of suffering, let's just not kill them eh?
I do question the logic of killing animals. Personally I would say that there is no logic. We feed animals food that we could eat ourselves, cause huge amonts of damage to the environment, and cause the animals suffering.
However it still isn't odd to get worked up about the way an animal is slaughtered. If other people want to eat flesh and support murder then that's their choice but I have the right to ask them to do it with as little suffering as possible.
2. Do you also not care that an ethnic minority have changed the entire means that meat is produced in the UK?
2. Not at all. Anyway, they're not changing the way all meat is produced, are they?
But if you aren't informed what meat is halal and what meat isn't, then for all we know all the meat may be halal. How can you choose non-halal meat if you're not told when it is halal.
Maybe I would find halal slaughter sickening, but it's just as likely I'd find "Western, civilised" slaughter sickening too.
If that's the case why do you continue to carry on eating meat regardless?
1) He hasn't seen either
and
2) The fact it's getting slaughtered doesn't make it any less tasty
People using the household pet argument is ridiculous... I haven't formed an emotional bond with the cow in my burger so it's irrelevant that i love my cat
Look, the simple fact is, the reason most meat used now is Halal meat is simple - the vast majority of people couldn't give a fuck about how it's killed. Muslims DO give a fuck about it, and there are a large number of muslims in the UK now, so it makes more sense to pander to the majority of people who care one way or the other - I.e. Muslims. I don't understand what's so difficult to grasp about this.
More important is the fact that you can't buy any food from a supermarket in this country that actually tastes of anything. That's what we should be whinging about.
Jimmymelrose, I doubt this involved the full force of Daily Mail investigative journalism. I would expect that you can go on the RSPCA, PETA or some other animal rights' website and find this story (dated before the DM story) along with an exhaustive list of retailers who use only halal meat. If people really do care about this, they should inform themselves and make sure they avoid such companies. But people really don't care about the means of slaughter, only the Daily Mail-style end-of-the-world Sharia Law in 50 years stuff that you came out with.
It's highly unlikely I'd change my consumption of meat after watching a slaughter, whether halal or non-halal. But where there is any chance, it's just as likely the Western means would put me off.
You're talking to the wrong person trying to get me to care about animal rights. I've heard halal and kosher meat tastes better than the equivalent Western meat. The only reason I don't buy raw halal meat is because I worry that it'd be seen as insulting to local Muslims to buy their sacred meat.
And again, I've had many pets in my life. Most of those pets enjoyed eating meat too.
There's no downside to non-Muslims eating halal, and there is an awful lot more to halal slaughter than has been discussed here. I've always believed that the practice of halal slaughter originates in respect for the animal, including the minimising of physical and emotional pain to the animal. That's certainly how it's been explained to me by Muslim friends whom I respect.
At the end of the day, I see a story like this, particularly considering the source and think that it's far more politically motivated than by any attempt to change the purchasing and eating habits of modern Britain. Anyone who believes that the industrialised slaughter of animals for meat is intended to be or effectively is somehow kinder to animals than what I understand halal slaughter to be about is living in a dream world.
Just watched Spurs/Bolton from yesterday. Wasn't that something? ;-)
IA - halal food isn't seen as being sacred per se. It's seen as being clean/pure/allowed as opposed to impure/unclean/forbidden haram (non-halal) food. A Muslim would not be offended non-Muslim eating halal food.
In fact, probably everybody reading this has eaten some halal food today as vegetables, fruit, beans, milk, bread, vegetarian dishes etc are almost always halal. It's only meat where there are specific rules that need to be followed to make the food halal.
What I meant was that I didn't want to deprive devout Muslims just for the sake of experimenting. While I know a butcher is unlikely to run out, I've got a mental block on it. :-)
[quote][cite]Posted By: Oggy Red[/cite][quote][cite]Posted By: SaoPauloAddick[/cite] In fact, probably everybody reading this has eaten some halal food today as vegetables[/quote]
You mean that apple I've eaten today is Halal food .....?[/quote]
Yup, an apple is halal. It's also kosher, as a brucey bonus :-)
Comments
OK, so if the 'forced' consumption of halal meat was a big issue for ordinary people (as the Daily Mail claim to be the case), companies would be sure to mention that their meat was killed by Western means, because that would increase their market. Right?
So if you care about an animal's death (but, curiously, not its life or the fact that its life is ended prematurely), assume that all meat is halal/kosher unless otherwise labelled.
What's the problem?
As a generalisation, the British public are typically very apathetic about issues, unless they are provoked (usually by the media). They would rather moan about it and watch Eastenders, than actually do something about it.
Businesses know this.
If Halal meat is the cheapest source, then that's what they'll use ......in the same way that battery hens are used, as they will provide the cheapest eggs/ frozen chicken or whatever.
The manufacturer will have no scruples, unless the public/government force him to do otherwise.
Only gardeners grow food for pleasure; business are only in business to make a profit.
Stop it... this is something im really passionate about and you're giving me the right amp
If it was an issue, manufacturers would emphasise when they use non-halal meat, because that would boost sales of their products. They might even charge a premium for 'stunned meat', like they do now for organic and free range. Manufacturers don't have to produce organic food, but some do because there's money to be made, and some people care.
People don't care.
How thoughtful of the Daily Mail to try to whip up a frenzy.
There will be some people who don't care, as you say ........but a huge number will be horrified that the animal that becomes their dinner suffers in agony and fear, before it finally dies.
Many people have pets, and have always been taught that animals killed for meat are slaughtered humanely and painlessly.
Unless someone tells them otherwise.
Of course, the Daily Mail wants to whip up a frenzy.
They might be a dirge of a newspaper, but they are a business - and more sales mean more advertisers buy space.
And more profit.
I don't understand the importance people put in the manner of death. I mean, these are animals that are created, bred and slaughtered as and when we please for our own enjoyment and subject largely to price restrictions, rather than any particular care for the animals.
But if people care, they should do their research. It's not like the Daily Mail's coverage was exhaustive anyway.
1. Do you not really care how animals are killed?
I think that if everyone saw the killing with their own eyes then over 90% would object. Just because you haven't seen it doesn't make it any less cruel and horrific.
Also I'd like to know how many of the people on here who claim apathy, have or have had a domestic animal.
2. Do you also not care that an ethnic minority have changed the entire means that meat is produced in the UK?
Why should a minority's beliefs so drastically change the way that anything (regardless of whether it's meat production or not) is done in the country?
Why do you care more for the beliefs of Muslims than for the welfare of animals?
Why do you agree that we should disregard all the laws and recommendations that have been passed in the UK for the benefit of a minority's religious beliefs?
If the apathy on this board is a true indication of British society then I think that my Dad (whose opinions are often exagerrated IMO) may be right when he says that we will be living in a Muslim country by Sharia law within 50 years.
1. Nope. I only care that they're killed in time for my dinner.
I don't have an animal, but my flatmate has a cat, and grew up with all sorts of animals, including pets, 'working' animals and animals that were killed for meat (as a byproduct of having chickens, you will inevitably have too many roosters at some time).
2. Not at all. Anyway, they're not changing the way all meat is produced, are they?
Nice brinksmanship though.
You make your point of view very clear.
But if you've ever had a pet like a cat or a dog, you'll know that your animal is a sentient creature ...... it's capable of a degree of thought, it has a huge amount of sensitivity ...... and when hurt feels pain just as intensly as we do.
People occasionally keep an orphaned lamb, rear it by hand and it becomes a pet, showing it's owner great affection.
Pigs also. When my local allotments were started a year ago, a pig was 'lent' to rotivate the ground, rooting out pernicious weeds, turning over the soil and manuring it ready for growing. She was soon christened 'Camilla' and became a great friend to all the gardeners, who would bring scraps, leftover dinners and fruit to give her a treat. And afterwards, she would flutter her very human looking eyelashes as she looked at you and make all sorts of contented sounds as she was stroked and fussed.
One day, she dug up a piece of rusty wire buried in the ground and cut her foot badly, and made a terrible wailing sound as she was obviously in pain. When she had to be put down (humanely) .... all those at the allotment were very sad.
They felt that they'd lost a friend, in the same way as if their own dog had been put down.
I tell this story only to point out that animals are capable of thought, affection and feelings the same as humans ......and if they are to be bred and killed for meat, then why should they die in fear and agony?
Would you want to?
Iceland are quite good for cheap veggie food so I'll stick up for them. I hope they launch a one pound falafel pizza...
Something tells me you never intended on killing Camilla and eating her...? If I'm right about that, she was a pet, just like a dog.
Maybe I would find halal slaughter sickening, but it's just as likely I'd find "Western, civilised" slaughter sickening too.
That's what I'm saying, SPA.
Camilla's sausagemeat now, IA.
Although her time at the allotment seemed to be a very happy time for her, where she revelled in being the star of the show.
She wasn't our pig (she belonged to a neighbouring farmer), so she wasn't ours to eat. In effect, she was a working animal like a shire horse or sheepdog.
But she showed her personality, her warmth and affection for people, her funny llttle thought processes - and was sensitive and felt pain. Not much difference from us really.
I've never been to an abbottoir, and neither would I want to. As you say, all slaughter seems sickening.
Anyway, good discussion IA ....... I'm off out for a pint in a mo, so enjoy your evening.
And these are the people that will lap it up too - and why not if its cheap?
Ralk about halal meat all you like - different issue in my view - but otherwise the fact that this shit gets mass produced and chucked out without quesion should surely cause concern?
I ain't dictating to anyone, but if a fella was injecting H four times a day I'd tell him to stop. Death pizza isn't H, but fuck me the people that "take" it week on week are being weaned onto this shit and this thread proves they don't know it.
Anyway, I'm off for a curry.
I do question the logic of killing animals. Personally I would say that there is no logic. We feed animals food that we could eat ourselves, cause huge amonts of damage to the environment, and cause the animals suffering.
However it still isn't odd to get worked up about the way an animal is slaughtered. If other people want to eat flesh and support murder then that's their choice but I have the right to ask them to do it with as little suffering as possible.
If that's the case why do you continue to carry on eating meat regardless?
1) He hasn't seen either
and
2) The fact it's getting slaughtered doesn't make it any less tasty
People using the household pet argument is ridiculous... I haven't formed an emotional bond with the cow in my burger so it's irrelevant that i love my cat
More important is the fact that you can't buy any food from a supermarket in this country that actually tastes of anything. That's what we should be whinging about.
It's highly unlikely I'd change my consumption of meat after watching a slaughter, whether halal or non-halal. But where there is any chance, it's just as likely the Western means would put me off.
You're talking to the wrong person trying to get me to care about animal rights. I've heard halal and kosher meat tastes better than the equivalent Western meat. The only reason I don't buy raw halal meat is because I worry that it'd be seen as insulting to local Muslims to buy their sacred meat.
And again, I've had many pets in my life. Most of those pets enjoyed eating meat too.
True. But they probably didn't think about it and just ate what was put in front of them.
A bit like most people.
;o)
There's no downside to non-Muslims eating halal, and there is an awful lot more to halal slaughter than has been discussed here. I've always believed that the practice of halal slaughter originates in respect for the animal, including the minimising of physical and emotional pain to the animal. That's certainly how it's been explained to me by Muslim friends whom I respect.
At the end of the day, I see a story like this, particularly considering the source and think that it's far more politically motivated than by any attempt to change the purchasing and eating habits of modern Britain. Anyone who believes that the industrialised slaughter of animals for meat is intended to be or effectively is somehow kinder to animals than what I understand halal slaughter to be about is living in a dream world.
Just watched Spurs/Bolton from yesterday. Wasn't that something? ;-)
In fact, probably everybody reading this has eaten some halal food today as vegetables, fruit, beans, milk, bread, vegetarian dishes etc are almost always halal. It's only meat where there are specific rules that need to be followed to make the food halal.
What I meant was that I didn't want to deprive devout Muslims just for the sake of experimenting. While I know a butcher is unlikely to run out, I've got a mental block on it. :-)
You mean that apple I've eaten today is Halal food .....?
In fact, probably everybody reading this has eaten some halal food today as vegetables[/quote]
You mean that apple I've eaten today is Halal food .....?[/quote]
Yup, an apple is halal. It's also kosher, as a brucey bonus :-)
And I've eaten that apple while it's still alive.....?
As I took that first bite, I'm sure I heard it scream.