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Phil Chapple - Chief scout for the last 4 years ish.

edited September 2010 in General Charlton
Now i know i've said this before and i know i'll probably get stick for it but i can't remember us bringing in too many real 'finds' in the last few years. I know it's the manager's call but surely the scouts have some accountability. If you were asked to assemble a collection of forwards, admittedly for not a lot of money, do you think you could find better than we currently have?
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Comments

  • Nope.

    Next question please.
  • no......it's no good saying 'such and such went on a free transfer' etc either, cause as we all know there's no such thing as a 'free transfer', signing on fees/wages etc.

    I doubt that we could've got much better within our budget
  • He's had to work with ever decreasing funds. Lower wages. Uncertainty about what division we will be in. Uncertainty about whether he still has a job.

    Does he stand there bitching about it?

    Or does he get on with his job?

    Dailly, Doherty, Kyel Reid, Johnnie Jackson, Lee Martin.....

    Just look at the players we have got together in ridiculously tough economic times. We are two points off the top of the table yet all I am seeing is negativity on here and frankly I am finding it more than a little bit tedious.

    The idea of being a supporter is that we support the team. YES we haven't fired properly yet but look how many new faces we have. Saturday was a prime example of Benson and Abbott not knowing each others games well enough as they made similar runs and weren't linking up well - once they have more games together I am sure they will score goals together. They are proven goalscorers.

    How many other clubs in this division have the playing options we have? I can assure you it is not many.
  • I cant think of a better defender in League 1 than the Doc, best signing we've had for along time, Class
  • So Chapple is an unequivicable success then? - no point discussing it - sorry, thought this was a discussion board.
  • [cite]Posted By: Bexley Dan[/cite]So Chapple is an unequivicable success then? - no point discussing it - sorry, thought this was a discussion board.
    Sorry, but where has that been said? People have come back to you with their views.
  • [cite]Posted By: cafc_1993[/cite]I cant think of a better defender in League 1 than the Doc, best signing we've had for along time, Class

    Not sure about that personally but everybody knows about him - i'm talking about unearthing players - that is a scouts job isn't it? Can't think who we've unearthed in the last 4 years. We get Chris Dickson, Millwall unearth Morrison - could be luck - just raising it as a discussion point.
  • Not saying hes a success, you woud have to think that the signing of Izale Mcleod and Stuart Fleetwood were probably looked at by Chapple, However Chapple, has had to work in the budget, so hasnt been able to look at more expensive talent that is out there.
  • [cite]Posted By: cafc_1993[/cite]Not saying hes a success, you woud have to think that the signing of Izale Mcleod and Stuart Fleetwood were probably looked at by Chapple, However Chapple, has had to work in the budget, so hasnt been able to look at more expensive talent that is out there.

    not even really sure anyone questioned those signings when they were made, Mcleod was banging goals in for fun (maybe his feee was too high but that wasn't his fault) and Fleetwood was a gamble (cheap one) that didn't pay off - if you look at Morrison then yes sometimes they clearly do pay off.
  • A mate of mine covered League 2 Football for Sky the season that McLeod was banging them in for MK Dons and said he looked quality. I think the main issue with him was that we paid way, way over the odds for him, nothing to do with Chapple. Managers do a lot of their own scouting as well and I'm pretty sure Pardew would have had the last word on anyone that we signed.

    Dickson had the raw materials to be a great striker, not Chapple's fault that either down to the player's attitude or Charlton's coaching methods he didn't develop after we signed him.
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  • Morison, Austin, Dickson. Uhmm. Agree that we havn't 'unearthed' anyone good. McLeod was well known by all and we took a gamble that didn't work out. Those we signed this summer had nothing to do with scouting.
    [cite]Posted By: cafc_1993[/cite]Not saying hes a success, you woud have to think that the signing of Izale Mcleod and Stuart Fleetwood were probably looked at by Chapple, However Chapple, has had to work in the budget, so hasnt been able to look at more expensive talent that is out there.

    but it's not about looking at what we already know is out there, it's finding that gem that non-one else has yet spotted. In that reagrd he hasn't unearthed anything.
  • we've got what we've got for the time being player wise , if we could just get them playing to or near their maximum potential then i think we'll do ok but unfortunately that hasn't happened yet , i think our coaching methods/practices have the biggest question mark over them
  • [cite]Posted By: WSS[/cite]
    [cite]Posted By: Bexley Dan[/cite]So Chapple is an unequivicable success then? - no point discussing it - sorry, thought this was a discussion board.
    Sorry, but where has that been said? People have come back to you with their views.

    Point taken - was referring to Swisdom's - next question and tedious comments.
  • I thought Chapple's main job was scouting the opposition team
  • [cite]Posted By: LargeAddick[/cite]Those we signed this summer had nothing to do with scouting.
    Well they've watched all of them before they played for us at some point haven't they? So while the signings this summer weren't unearthing some unknown talent, I'd imagine at least one or two out of Parky, his staff and the scouts watched them all at some point last season.

    A year ago no one on here would have come up with Kyel Reid as a potential left winger for us. He'd have been watched either for Sheff Utd and/or West Ham in friendlies, first team or reserve games at some point by someone at the club. That's scouting isn't it?
  • Kyle Reid - yes, good signing. Chief scout - if his job is main job is checking the opposition the i take it all back but i doubt that - Keith Peacock used to do that role but he wasn't chief scout.
  • [cite]Posted By: Elthamaddick[/cite]no......it's no good saying 'such and such went on a free transfer' etc either, cause as we all know there's no such thing as a 'free transfer', signing on fees/wages etc.

    I doubt that we could've got much better within our budget
    But is this not ignoring the enormous budget squandered on players a few years ago? If operating on a small budget is a virtue then surely failing with a large budget is, well, failing...
  • [cite]Posted By: Bexley Dan[/cite]
    [cite]Posted By: cafc_1993[/cite]I cant think of a better defender in League 1 than the Doc, best signing we've had for along time, Class

    Not sure about that personally but everybody knows about him - i'm talking about unearthing players - that is a scouts job isn't it? Can't think who we've unearthed in the last 4 years. We get Chris Dickson, Millwall unearth Morrison - could be luck - just raising it as a discussion point.

    I wouldn't go as far as saying Millwall unearthed Morison, anyone with any kind of knowledge of non league football had heard of him as he was amongst the top conference scorers for 2-3 years at Stevenage. Millwall were just prepared to take a gamble.
  • id say Pardew had more say in who he scouted

    I would think Parky has a "type" of player and Chapple looks at people who fit in
  • The chief scout makes recommendations and gives advice. He doesn't make decisions about signings.

    Since we'll never know what his advice may have been, what other players he may have recommended that weren't pursued and who that did sign was originally recommended by someone else, I don't know how we can have a valid opinion on his performance.
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  • Surely most of the players that have come through the academy have been scouted as youngsters?
  • Solly, Shelvey, Cousins, Elliot, Wagstaff, Tuna, Mambo then?
  • [cite]Posted By: Bexley Dan[/cite]

    Not sure about that personally but everybody knows about him - i'm talking about unearthing players - that is a scouts job isn't it? Can't think who we've unearthed in the last 4 years. We get Chris Dickson, Millwall unearth Morrison - could be luck - just raising it as a discussion point.

    Don't think it is fair to evaluate based on "unearthing players" over the last couple of seasons. Because I lack an active and full social life, we spend a ridiculous amount of wasted time trying to find players on lower division sides that seem like they will be moving onwards and upwards in their careers and then sponsor the player. We sponsored Andrew Halliday at Livingston last season based on his consistently promising play the season prior. When Halliday was invited to Charlton, we were excited about having a genuine prospect in the squad -- but, of course, Charlton cannot afford such luxuries now and the possibilities with Halliday were outstripped by the need to have players that can contribute immediately.

    I can't say that I agree with any assessment that Halliday had nothing substantive to offer immediately -- he's already started a game for Middlesborough in Championship and come on as a sub twice so far this season (once for Nicky Bailey) -- but I can at least understand that the club is not in the business of unearthing unpolished gems at the moment, but is instead recruiting players with proven track records (number 2 goalkeepers excluded).
  • [cite]Posted By: Airman Brown[/cite]I don't know how we can have a valid opinion on his performance.

    Never stopped us having one previously.
  • [cite]Posted By: Airman Brown[/cite]The chief scout makes recommendations and gives advice. He doesn't make decisions about signings.

    Since we'll never know what his advice may have been, what other players he may have recommended that weren't pursued and who that did sign was originally recommended by someone else, I don't know how we can have a valid opinion on his performance.

    That's a hell of a job then. No way of measuring performance.

    Is it like that throughout the Club?

    I don't want to be unkind, but there is the example of Chris Smalling. That may be an isolated instance and an extreme one at that, but Chapple dithered on that decision and we were gazumped by Fulham.

    The real measure of performance should be aimed at the collective scouting/management team, not just at Phil Chapple. McLeod was an obvious mistake (to many of us with coaching qualifications, and we said so at the time of signing). Conversely we have done well recently with Reid and Martin.

    Overall, the scouting team will get some right and some wrong, but I find it disappointing that we haven't picked up too many really promising younger players or harvested the lower European leagues (Scandinavia especially) for low cost potential gems. What about our tie-in with various clubs worldwide? Finally, TelinOz will point out the promise of several players from his neck of the woods.

    Against all that, it's hard to claim that we have done particularly well.
  • edited September 2010
    We signed several young players from Europe, mainly from Scandinavia, while we were in the Prem. For probably different reasons they all failed, Youga being the exception (though he didn't break through until we were relegated).

    Jani Tanska, Martin Christensen, Mads Nielsen, Mikkel Rygaard Jensen, Rurik Gislason, think it was 5 Ivory Coast players, Szabolcs Kemenes, maybe some more I've forgotten.

    Some were signed when Curbs were here, some since.

    Does it show how hard it is to find players with real potential and help them reach it, or is it a failure of our scouting and then coaching/management? Would be interesting to compare to other clubs who have signed similar numbers. The top clubs sign plenty of foreign youngsters but plenty don't make it even at a smaller Prem club.
  • Dave, why arent you working in the football league or even Premier League at the moment? I know of course you managed a team in the FA Cup but your knowledge seems unbounded looking at your comments recently. Surely you could do a job somewhere in the Championship at least?
  • edited September 2010
    [cite]Posted By: Dave Rudd[/cite]
    [cite]Posted By: Airman Brown[/cite]The chief scout makes recommendations and gives advice. He doesn't make decisions about signings.

    Since we'll never know what his advice may have been, what other players he may have recommended that weren't pursued and who that did sign was originally recommended by someone else, I don't know how we can have a valid opinion on his performance.

    That's a hell of a job then. No way of measuring performance.

    .

    The key phrase in Airman's statement is "I don't know how WE (my emphasis) can have a valid opinion.."

    Airman has not said that there is no way to measure performance or that his performance isn't indeed measured only that as WE FANS (my emphasis again) don't have all the facts and figures, as listed in his post, we don't have the data to make an informed judgement.
  • And how do you know Chapple "dithered? He may have been urging Pardew to sign him and Pardew made the decision not to.

    We made have made an offer but the player preferred Fulham to us. We just don't know.
  • [cite]Posted By: Airman Brown[/cite]The chief scout makes recommendations and gives advice. He doesn't make decisions about signings.

    Since we'll never know what his advice may have been, what other players he may have recommended that weren't pursued and who that did sign was originally recommended by someone else, I don't know how we can have a valid opinion on his performance.

    We can't, but one thing we can say for sure is that he hasn't been an outstanding success. It's like people who used to moan about Mervin Day. Unless you are on the training ground etc how would you know but i'm just offering up the opinion that he has been a constant over a period where, regardless of the manager, we haven't made many good signings and we haven't picked up any Morrison's or Charlie Austins so it's a reasonable discussion point in my opinion. What surprises me more is thgat with Kinsella there how do we manage to reach a point where we don't have a single proper midfield general and /or playmaker in the club but we have 5 centre halves and at least 3 others who could also play there.
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