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NEW ARTICLE: Home and Away.....you still gotta pay

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  • 5.1 Not all men welcomed this apparent growth in the number of female fans at football, often seeing it as an 'invasion' of their leisure space. Women supporters tended to be stereotyped as 'middle class', and thus obviously ignorant of the game. Fishwick (1989, p.57)
    Got a bloody point cheek if you ask me...
  • Well done to the 450 that went to Huddersfield and supported Charlton.
    Well done to the thousands that didn't go to Huddersfield but still supported Charlton either via the radio, CAFC player, Soccer saturday or whatever way to keep informed of how our team done.
    There, Whats the difference? We were all just as gutted at the final score.
  • I did mean to include women's changing role in the whole 'society has changed' thing.
  • [cite]Posted By: CafcAndy[/cite] We just don't have enough young live at home singles i guess..

    That's the point you should have made to start with imo, rather than implying than anyone who doesn't go to many away games, including those with families or careers, lacks passion.
  • Back in the good old days there was no TV coverage outside the top division, and almost no live games. That's been the key change IMO. When I first came to London and adoptd Charlton it cost £8, but crowds were significantly lower. Before that the first season ticket that I bought (for Partick) cost £30 and the crowds were dreadful.

    Over the period that the Premiership has been in place a number of clubs have increased their capacity - attendances are 66% higher. I'm not completely convinced that if you were looking at a lower mid table game from the 50s that there were particularly amazing crowds then either, but I don't really know.
  • edited August 2010
    [cite]Posted By: Sussex_Addick[/cite]
    [cite]Posted By: CafcAndy[/cite]We just don't have enough young live at home singles i guess..

    That's the point you should have made to start with imo, rather than implying than anyone who doesn't go to many away games, including those with families or careers, lacks passion.

    Do i have to explain again.

    People with family and careers seem to go home and away for other similar size clubs to ours with better away support.

    Im not saying they lack passion, im just saying other clubs fans manage it because football is everything to them..Didn't say it was right or wrong did i.
  • Good article and interesting debate.

    I think a couple of 'big picture' issues so far haven't been covered, and in my opinion go a long way to explaining why our away attendances are not in line with our home crowds.

    1. Our club, The Valley, home games etc has been extensively (and successfully) marketed since our return in 1992 on the family issue. The club have done so well in getting bodies through the turnstiles in creating a safe, well priced, family orientated environment, and as a result i would expect the percentage of families regularly attending The Valley to be far greater than most other clubs. By nature, to those people a nice afternoon out every fortnight is commitment enough, they will have less interest in actively following the day to day aspects of the clubs like those of us on here do (the total amount of Charlton fans active on all websites is a lot lower than other comparative clubs), and they equally have less interest in both devoting more time to their 'hobby' than they currently do, or the desire to travel further and pay extra to do it. Those with active family involvement are also likely to have a lot other things to balance.

    You can look at it as that we have a poor take up in away support in comparison to our home one, or you could equally look at the fact that we are very successful in getting more bodies through our home turnstiles than perhaps the size of our 'core support' would suggest.

    2. By nature of where we are situated, it is extremely rare if the core of your group of friends, or even family, all support Charlton. The majority of us will have our circle of friends probably split between 7 or 8 clubs (Arsenal, Spurs, Chelsea, Liverpool, Man U, Wham, Millwall the most obvious). I think this is much less likely to be the case in somewhere like Huddersfield for example, and even if people in Huddersfield do primarily follow other bigger clubs (Leeds, Man U etc), they by nature of their town identity are more likely to have a greater affiliation with their local club, and be more likely to go on 'away days out' with their mates who do actively follow HTFC.

    3. To a lesser extent, with the infrastructure we have here in the South East, there are a lot more leisure opportunities available to us than in any other area of the country.

    In summary, i think the 'derision' of our away followings is completely overstated. last season we averaged away followings of 1,418 which only Leeds, Norwich and Southampton bettered (Huddersfield by comparison was 1,148).

    So we do have fans willing to travel. The difference is, and mainly based from Point 1, is that our fanbase is much more likely to pick and choose which ones they go to than maybe some other clubs fanbases.
  • [cite]Posted By: AFKABartram[/cite]In summary, i think the 'derision' of our away followings is completely overstated. last season we averaged away followings of 1,418 which only Leeds, Norwich and Southampton bettered (Huddersfield by comparison was 1,148).

    definitely new ground syndrome, this year wont be nearly as high
    and in our relegation season from the championship we had the smallest away average in the league and there were some "small" clubs in that division at the time
  • that's what i mean by we are more likely to pick and choose than others.

    The other point is 'does it really matter' ?

    Stats show that whether we take a good following or a bad one, it seems to have no impact on the result of the game. If i'm not attending, it doesn't matter one jot to me if ten did or ten thousand did.

    What does it really matter ? Only angle i can possible be is the impression we give off to over clubs, but i don't care one iota what a Huddersfield, or a Carlisle, or a Tranmere think of Charlton's away followings, and i can't understand why anyone else would either.
  • edited August 2010
    I think your wrong there AFKA.

    When you walk out the tunnel at Huddersfield and see all the empty seats behind the goal it's hardly encouraging.

    This will open the debate " they are on all that money, shouldn't need the noise blah blah" but they are humans, and more noise to spur them on will make them do better.

    It's that kind of attiutude that too many of our fans take.
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  • [cite]Posted By: AFKABartram[/cite]Stats show that whether we take a good following or a bad one, it seems to have no impact on the result of the game.

    i'm sure the players and management would prefer to have more fans there than not
    but we always go on about getting behind the team and not booooing but does that make any difference
    of course it might not matter to some but i'm always a bit prouder to hear you had a decent turnout at so and so from mates who have seen the footy round ups, rather than them laughing at our minimal numbers
    and i always personally like to look at the loops other fans have at away games and how many they brought , qpr looked great at derby
    each to their own tho
  • [cite]Posted By: CafcAndy[/cite]I think your wrong there AFKA.

    When you walk out the tunnel at Huddersfield and see all the empty seats behind the goal it's hardly encouraging.

    This will open the debate " they are on all that money, shouldn't need the noise blah blah" but they are humans, and more noise to spur them on will make them do better.

    It's that kind of attiutude that too many of our fans take.

    Well if you look at last season for example.

    We had good wins at Tranmere (399) Hartlepool (505) Stockport (534) Brighton (890) and drew but played well at Walsall (446) and Huddersfield (577). The only game we lost taking less than a thousand was Carlisle (646). So last season low away numbers didn't have an impact on performance.

    You could equally argue that the team were hardly spurred on in the trouncings at Millwall (3,000) Colchester (2,066) defeats at Southampton (1,457) Norwich (1,630) or poor performance draws with Brentford (1,783) and MK Dons (1,903). The only possible games where you could argue 'good support' had an impact were at Orient away (3,119) and Southend (2,297), though you could equally argue that the latter was more down to them being in freefall and having ten men, and the former proved irrelevent when we got an even more impressive win there a fortnight ago with half the following.

    The more at an away game, the better the atmosphere, and the more enjoyable it is for the fan who travelled. But it doesn't to me seem to have any impact on result, as the 5,000+ followings to Blackburn and Middlesboro 3-4 years ago proved.
  • The only atmosphere last year worth talking about was Orient, the others had numbers, but more happy clappers than anything.
  • edited August 2010
    [cite]Posted By: CafcAndy[/cite]I think your wrong there AFKA.

    When you walk out the tunnel at Huddersfield and see all the empty seats behind the goal it's hardly encouraging.

    This will open the debate " they are on all that money, shouldn't need the noise blah blah" but they are humans, and more noise to spur them on will make them do better.

    It's that kind of attiutude that too many of our fans take.

    Actually I think its the third way. Players are there to play football because they love to play football and want to win. The money and the acclaim / support from fans are both second to this.

    A view backed up by Leaburn on Charlton Live this week.
  • Oh Leaburn has spoken, i better shhh.

    Obviously all that goes without saying. Seeing a full away end with a wall of noise helps ALOT more that a half empty one, so surely thats enough?
  • edited August 2010
    [cite]Posted By: CafcAndy[/cite]The only atmosphere last year worth talking about was Orient, the others had numbers, but more happy clappers than anything.

    Make your mind up man!

    You give ohh ah a good run for his money in whinging about away numbers then dismiss your fellow fans as "happy clappers" when we do fill our allocation!

    Like I said you cannot win when it comes to away support.

    Someone like me is the "wrong type" of fan because I go with my wife and/or daughter, do not drink and do not abuse fellow fans who might actually want to watch the match I've forked out hard earned money to see!

    Perhaps it is better for away support to be confined to all you Millwall wannabees as you obviously have contempt for your fellow fans when they do turn out!
  • edited August 2010
    [cite]Posted By: LenGlover[/cite]
    [cite]Posted By: CafcAndy[/cite]The only atmosphere last year worth talking about was Orient, the others had numbers, but more happy clappers than anything.

    Make your mind up man!

    You give ohh ah a good run for his money in whinging about away numbers then dismiss your fellow fans as "happy clappers" when we do fill our allocation!

    Like I said you cannot win when it comes to away support.

    Someone like me is the "wrong type" of fan because I go with my wife and/or daughter, do not drink and do not abuse fellow fans who might actually want to watch the match I've forked out hard earned money to see!

    Perhaps it is better for away support to be confined to all you Millwall wannabees as you obviously have contempt for your fellow fans when they do turn out!

    Typical.

    I am not whinging and not saying what is right or wrong. Just giving the reasons why our away support is poor.

    We are a nice little family club so it's whats to be expected.
  • [cite]Posted By: CafcAndy[/cite]
    [cite]Posted By: LenGlover[/cite]
    [cite]Posted By: CafcAndy[/cite]The only atmosphere last year worth talking about was Orient, the others had numbers, but more happy clappers than anything.

    Make your mind up man!

    You give ohh ah a good run for his money in whinging about away numbers then dismiss your fellow fans as "happy clappers" when we do fill our allocation!

    Like I said you cannot win when it comes to away support.

    Someone like me is the "wrong type" of fan because I go with my wife and/or daughter, do not drink and do not abuse fellow fans who might actually want to watch the match I've forked out hard earned money to see!

    Perhaps it is better for away support to be confined to all you Millwall wannabees as you obviously have contempt for your fellow fans when they do turn out!

    Typical.

    I am not whinging and not saying what is right or wrong. Just giving the reasons why our away support is poor.

    We are a nice little family club so it's whats to be expected.

    ....." Lets face it, most of our fans are middle classed kent lads (ladies) that would prefer to catch up on some train spotting or cheese and wine round the in laws.:.......

    Just responding in a manner you understand!
  • edited August 2010
    [cite]Posted By: LenGlover[/cite]
    [cite]Posted By: CafcAndy[/cite]
    [cite]Posted By: LenGlover[/cite]
    [cite]Posted By: CafcAndy[/cite]The only atmosphere last year worth talking about was Orient, the others had numbers, but more happy clappers than anything.

    Make your mind up man!

    You give ohh ah a good run for his money in whinging about away numbers then dismiss your fellow fans as "happy clappers" when we do fill our allocation!

    Like I said you cannot win when it comes to away support.

    Someone like me is the "wrong type" of fan because I go with my wife and/or daughter, do not drink and do not abuse fellow fans who might actually want to watch the match I've forked out hard earned money to see!

    Perhaps it is better for away support to be confined to all you Millwall wannabees as you obviously have contempt for your fellow fans when they do turn out!

    Typical.

    I am not whinging and not saying what is right or wrong. Just giving the reasons why our away support is poor.

    We are a nice little family club so it's whats to be expected.

    ....." Lets face it, most of our fans are middle classed kent lads (ladies) that would prefer to catch up on some train spotting or cheese and wine round the in laws.:.......

    Just responding in a manner you understand!

    Yeah and i stand by that, wasn't a dig, just a known thing. It's what makes us different from other clubs.

    I'd rather go to a game where you have an atmosphere like at St Mary's ect, but thats never going to happen.. Just respect the fans we do have, but it can be frustrating.
  • edited August 2010
    We ARE capable of generating a good atmosphere but events on the pitch play a large part in that and, as you know, things have not been great for a few seasons now!
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  • edited August 2010
    A good Atmosphere at the Valley only consists of more than quarter of the north stand singing for once..

    Lets not kid ourselves, we have some of the quietest fans around. If this is a lack of passion, or another excuse mentioned so be it.

    The Charlton name means more to me than any team we put out each year, i go to the valley in a good mood no matter what, i GO for the atmosphere, not to show my feelings on what league or what player isn't up to scratch.
  • Looking at AFKA's away fans stats a glaring stat jumps right at you...

    The nearer the away team the more fans are willIng to attend...

    I bet if you were to draw a graph that showed distance v attendance their would be a significant correlation between locality and number of fans traveling, I know such a graph would be a bit like stating the bleeding obvious but it's a 'fact' would probably show quite well why numbers of traveling fans vary as they do...
  • Anything past the watford gap is scary...
  • I think there's an easier way of looking at the question of our away support. I thought the 'Money/ time' argument was going to get us there but didn't. The missing variable is 'value'. No matter what the total quantity of free time/money is in the market, if fans consider the football experience less value than they once did they are less likely to attend games, home or away. For example, we're aware that footballers, even in league One are being paid maybe £2 - £7k per week, we know admission prices have soared, relatively and absolutely. Is it any surprise that from just those two key factors (wages v admission) reasonable fans (i.e. those who have a sense of inequity or what it is to be ripped off) are saying 'no thanks'. The cost of programmes, food, beer, bland all-seater stadia, petrol, exhorbitant train fares, collectively reduce the value of the experience. Other values are driven home by the media, and our own ideology- we know what a 'plastic' is because we have seen the images from stamford bridge and elsewhere and have absorbed the argments about multi-millionaires and prawn sandwiches. We now get to see the likes or Marcus Bent and Diouff driving their flash cars and the football-media circus reminds us everyday. On top of that, the misdemeanours of these 'stars' are in the press nearly everyday. Do i want to be part of that? Even at Charlton, where we like to think there's a Charlton way, and a Charlton sense of value, we're tied to a system where we are inevitably part of the circus. At the top of the pyramid, arguably, the England team- what a disgrace.

    In summary, my view- yes the media has spoilt the game, as have greedy players, all-seater stadia, bad management, and all those fans complicit in it, that don't question it. But most importantly, we are deprived of a means to analyse and apprehend what is happening- no thanks to the academics- including the University of Leicester's football researchers and suchlike, and those who look for crude correlations between 'social facts'. My suggestion is that an analysis of any trend, and football in particular, must reckon with value, a subjective thing that changes over time and ultimately deterimines demand.
  • Win, lose or draw, an away day is what you make it.
  • Whatever way you look at it, we've never been a club that generally travel in big numbers although can do on occassions. We're also a club who are now probably almost at the bottom of a 5 year recession - to use an economic term we are in depression and although the novelty of being in league 1 last year and being at or near the top gave our away attendances a boost, we are now firmly back in that depression and only a sustained few months of success will reverse that but the fact is that we will never be a big big club who pull huge numbers gegardless. I think we're like 80 percent of the league in that our away attendances will rise and fall with form / league standing and we are certainly in a big slump at the moment. I think there is also a bit of an air of seen that, done that, been to the promised land, aint all that, can't win anything, so i think the enthusiasm and excitement that may have built during the 90's just isn't likely to be the same as we know and have experienced first hand the 'ceiling' that exists. Better to travel than to arrive as they say although i think we are a club who likes to have our backs to the wall so maybe the challenge of re building and re establishing ourselve at least to a decent standard may bring some enthusiasm. A cup run wouldn't go a miss either but i have a feeling we have a bit more bottoming out to be done yet before equilibrium is re established and we settle back into tier 2 of English football.
  • So we have learnt that:

    1. Unless you shout and sing like CAFCAndy and have exactly the same priorities in life you have no passion for the Club. Anything else you may do or have done down the years to help the Club or fans doesn't count.

    2. Oah Aah's tedious and long running obsession with away numbers is all about him getting his leg pulled by his non-Charlton supporting mates.
  • But sadly we still haven't learnt any greater details on the quality of the potential cheese and wine on offer :-)
  • [cite]Posted By: AFKABartram[/cite]But sadly we still haven't learnt any greater details on the quality of the potential cheese and wine on offer :-)

    You've lost me.
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