Llera was class against orient to be fair but he had everything on his bonce. When the balls at his feet he is pony. Gets skinned way to easily. Fortune or llera. I know who Id choose
I always liked Fortune unlike some but he has hardly played since rupturing that achilles tendon.
We need to be absolutely sure he can still do it at the level before we commit. If he has recovered properly I'd sign him like a shot (finances permitting) but the fact we haven't suggests a few question marks to me.
Its like T.B said on the official site earlier, Jon is a player who needs to be up there in the Championship.
Although if J.F Comes or goes i do acutally believe it wont affect Llera's place at the club. But as players
Llera has struggled in league one.
A player who has made mistakes and cost us goals, or a steady player who is good on the ball and spent 98% of his playing Career with us.
Signing JF makes sense with the Youga news and the fact that Fry must predominently be cover for LB. Sounds as if it will be a while before he is up to speed though.
If it happens then it will be good to see Jon Fortune back, hope he can get up to speed as if he can get anywhere near his best then we have one of the divisions best CBs.
Agree with above posts, Llera is a liability and imho barely good enough for League 1. Fortune may be a gamble but could be worth taking.
Did JF make a mistake leaving last year. I might be wrong but if he had stayed would'nt have been his testimonial season?. If he comes back now he will be proberbly on less than we offered las year
He wont drop Dailly, I'd be surprised if he dropped Doherty as well, Fortune is out of pratice and lacks fitness, might be a case of him coming in for one of them if they get injured/suspended and then keeping his position, bit like Sodje last year with Llera.
If fit Fortune would be a class act in this league but not really sure why we'd sign him when we have Dailly and Docherty as the clear first-choice partnership and Llera as the back-up with Mambo waiting in the wings.
Surely there are other areas we would need the extra body (and wages that come with it) more
Forch has always been a 2nd ball CB, so not really the same type of player as Doc or Lllera who are 1st ball CB's.
Rambo Mambo is a 1st ball CB too. Don't know too much about Fry at either CB or LB, because I've never seen him play and I guess hardly anyone else has either!
Forch is more a Dailly type of CB, but whether he has the keen footballing intelligence of Dailly, only games will show.
But he does tidy up and distribute well from defence, like Dailly.
Dailly is 37 in October, and whilst he is among the fittest players at the club, we'd miss him if injured.
Look at how he was missed against Oldham?
What we do have in Forch is his experience playing at a higher level, and how we've seen him in the past keep international strikers in his pocket. If he can recover his sharpness, he could prove a valuable quality player to have at this level.
[cite]Posted By: Oggy Red[/cite]JF ......ha ha, I'm having a larf.
Forch has always been a 2nd ball CB, so not really the same type of player as Doc or Lllera who are 1st ball CB's.
Rambo Mambo is a 1st ball CB too. Don't know too much about Fry at either CB or LB, because I've never seen him play and I guess hardly anyone else has either!
Forch is more a Dailly type of CB, but whether he has the keen footballing intelligence of Dailly, only games will show.
But he does tidy up and distribute well from defence, like Dailly.
Dailly is 37 in October, and whilst he is among the fittest players at the club, we'd miss him if injured.
Look at how he was missed against Oldham?
What we do have in Forch is his experience playing at a higher level, and how we've seen him in the past keep international strikers in his pocket. If he can recover his sharpness, he could prove a valuable quality player to have at this level.
I don't think we need to be quite as fussy about this first/second ball malarky, and I'm not sure I believe in it that much anyways. Bougherra is always described as a 'ball-playing' defender - whenever I hear those words, it normally means that player can't defend. The best defenders can do either role well, and do so interchangeably within the same game.
Am surprised Fortune is having to drop down to League 1. Perhaps the injuries have taken their toll... let's hope not.
[cite]Posted By: dabos[/cite]I don't think we need to be quite as fussy about this first/second ball malarky, and I'm not sure I believe in it that much anyways. Bougherra is always described as a 'ball-playing' defender - whenever I hear those words, it normally means that player can't defend. The best defenders can do either role well, and do so interchangeably within the same game.
When I was watching Charlton as a kid, they used to call the two CBs, "cente-half" and "sweeper". England had just won the World Cup with Jack Charlton and Bobby Moore. And CAFC under manager Eddie Firmani, had 2 youngsters at CB in big Paul Went, with Peter Reeves sweeping.
Nothing's really changed since, except the terminology.
You invariably get one CB who's main strength is to physically challenge for the cross first, whilst the other CB picks up an attacker, and watches to tidy up any knockdowns or loose ball, and distribute from defence. This season Doc generally goes for the first ball and gets the physical challenge in, Dailly tidies up and if the opportunity is there, looks to set up our counter attack. It's a good balance.
For the past few seasons in the England set up, John Terry has been the main physical presence at CB, whilst Rio Ferdinand sweeps up and looks to bring the ball out of defence. In the Germany WC match, look how unbalanced Martin Upson and Terry were together - both 1st ball CB, both often going for the same ball and no one to sweep up.
A couple of years ago at CAFC, Fortune was paired with Bougherra, both 2nd ball CBs ......neither would go for the 1st ball and it left us aerially vulnerable. And it showed.
When Paddy McCarthy was brought back in, he attacked that 1st ball and paired with Fortune or Bougherra, our central defence was much more solid in the air.
Bougherra could defend very well, often Rio Ferdinand style - but he wouldn't attack that 1st ball.
Best defenders or not, you still need a complimentary pairing at CB.
I think Oggy's assesment is totally right. Fortune has the ability to be both but isn't.
He clearly is a reactive person, and thus when he had to man mark someone and it became a physical battle he was excellent. Unfortunately when he didn't have that he was rubbish with Bougher off, HH, El Kak and to some degree Hudson. Fortunately both Dailly and Doc are agressive and correct positionally. If Fortune has to organise we're all screwed.
Comments
Sorry big boy.
We need to be absolutely sure he can still do it at the level before we commit. If he has recovered properly I'd sign him like a shot (finances permitting) but the fact we haven't suggests a few question marks to me.
I thought that. Would be a bit strange but think a fit Fortune could be a very useful addition.
Although if J.F Comes or goes i do acutally believe it wont affect Llera's place at the club. But as players
Llera has struggled in league one.
A player who has made mistakes and cost us goals, or a steady player who is good on the ball and spent 98% of his playing Career with us.
Agree with above posts, Llera is a liability and imho barely good enough for League 1. Fortune may be a gamble but could be worth taking.
Surely there are other areas we would need the extra body (and wages that come with it) more
Forch has always been a 2nd ball CB, so not really the same type of player as Doc or Lllera who are 1st ball CB's.
Rambo Mambo is a 1st ball CB too. Don't know too much about Fry at either CB or LB, because I've never seen him play and I guess hardly anyone else has either!
Forch is more a Dailly type of CB, but whether he has the keen footballing intelligence of Dailly, only games will show.
But he does tidy up and distribute well from defence, like Dailly.
Dailly is 37 in October, and whilst he is among the fittest players at the club, we'd miss him if injured.
Look at how he was missed against Oldham?
What we do have in Forch is his experience playing at a higher level, and how we've seen him in the past keep international strikers in his pocket. If he can recover his sharpness, he could prove a valuable quality player to have at this level.
Does that mean Llera is a 3rd Ball CB?
No, Falcs ........ it means he's 3rd choice CB.
;o)
... For gills v us.
He was brilliant or at least our strikers had no chances in that game. That could be cos our strikers were crap though : - )
I don't think we need to be quite as fussy about this first/second ball malarky, and I'm not sure I believe in it that much anyways. Bougherra is always described as a 'ball-playing' defender - whenever I hear those words, it normally means that player can't defend. The best defenders can do either role well, and do so interchangeably within the same game.
Am surprised Fortune is having to drop down to League 1. Perhaps the injuries have taken their toll... let's hope not.
When I was watching Charlton as a kid, they used to call the two CBs, "cente-half" and "sweeper". England had just won the World Cup with Jack Charlton and Bobby Moore. And CAFC under manager Eddie Firmani, had 2 youngsters at CB in big Paul Went, with Peter Reeves sweeping.
Nothing's really changed since, except the terminology.
You invariably get one CB who's main strength is to physically challenge for the cross first, whilst the other CB picks up an attacker, and watches to tidy up any knockdowns or loose ball, and distribute from defence. This season Doc generally goes for the first ball and gets the physical challenge in, Dailly tidies up and if the opportunity is there, looks to set up our counter attack. It's a good balance.
For the past few seasons in the England set up, John Terry has been the main physical presence at CB, whilst Rio Ferdinand sweeps up and looks to bring the ball out of defence. In the Germany WC match, look how unbalanced Martin Upson and Terry were together - both 1st ball CB, both often going for the same ball and no one to sweep up.
A couple of years ago at CAFC, Fortune was paired with Bougherra, both 2nd ball CBs ......neither would go for the 1st ball and it left us aerially vulnerable. And it showed.
When Paddy McCarthy was brought back in, he attacked that 1st ball and paired with Fortune or Bougherra, our central defence was much more solid in the air.
Bougherra could defend very well, often Rio Ferdinand style - but he wouldn't attack that 1st ball.
Best defenders or not, you still need a complimentary pairing at CB.
He clearly is a reactive person, and thus when he had to man mark someone and it became a physical battle he was excellent. Unfortunately when he didn't have that he was rubbish with Bougher off, HH, El Kak and to some degree Hudson. Fortunately both Dailly and Doc are agressive and correct positionally. If Fortune has to organise we're all screwed.