Agree with most of your points ormiston but beleive me Euell and class should never be mentioned in the same sentence,and while Bobby Dazzler always showed commitment and effort,i don't think he was class either.
Browny, Jason Euell might have had a first touch like a bulldozer but for his first three years he was top scorer and ran his nuts off for the side. Sure he was not the most skilled midfielder but he scored a lot of important goals and never looked out of his class like Hughes does. As for Stuart, I thought he was a much under-rated player and if you look back at those golden years 2000-2004 you will see that he created a lot of goals for us from those wide areas with his good passing, he also ran his nuts off and could never be faulted for a lack of effort. I would not swap either of them for any of that current shower of shite apart from maybe Holland.
Yea maybe but we can't keep living in the past,comparing old players with current ones,otherwise we could say the same about the whole team.Diawara is no Rufus,M.Bent is no Mendonca and Luke Young is no Johnny H.
Maybe, but only the very one-eyed could deny that most players would choose West Ham over us, that's just the way it is I am afraid, you have got to be a realist. They have more money and are seen as a "bigger" club. Look at Ashley Young, Shaun Wright-Phillips, Lauren and others all turning down West Ham who are nowhere near as much in the shit as we are - who do you think we are going to attract, Ronaldinho? Actually, there IS a point comparing our current squad to the squad of 2003 because it PROVES that we have gone backwards, we had better players then than we had now, I don't see why that is so damned hard to understand when it is sticking out like dogs balls.
[cite]Posted By: Ormiston Addick[/cite]Actually, there IS a point comparing our current squad to the squad of 2003 because it PROVES that we have gone backwards, we had better players then than we had now, I don't see why that is so damned hard to understand when it is sticking out like dogs balls.
the perceived quality of the players now is a lot higher that the class of 2003. If the players of 2007 showed anything like the commitment and desire of the 2003 squad then i genuinely believe we would be a top 10 club.
Keep comparing then ormiston,why don't we compare where we are now and how well we've done to get and stay here,to where we were when we were playin at selhurst and upton park or maybe you don't remember that far back
Browny, I don't really understand why you are getting narky on this? FYI, I was there at Selhurst and Upton Park for every home game we played so you can stick that one where the sun don't shine. I was even there in the darkest days when we were getting 800 in the FMC at Selhurst so I've more than earned my stripes boy. I know we are a hell of a lot better off now than we were 15 years ago, duh, but my point is that our team has gone backwards alarmingly over the last four years - just check out that thing called the league table, that will probably clear things up for you. How can ANYONE say that our current back four Young-El Kak-HH-Thatcher is a BETTER unit than our 2003 version of Young-Rufus-Fish/Rowett-Powell? The 2003 unit was FAR better as can be seen by the fact we conceded only 51 goals all season - we have conceded 42 already in just 23 games this year. Midfield? Mate, Stuart, Parker, Jensen and Euell are simply in a DIFFERENT CLASS to Ambrose, Holland, Hughes, Faye and the rest of the shite we have on board now. Parker, Jensen and Euell all left for Premiership clubs, how many Premiership clubs would sign ANY of our current midfield. Nobody. Sure, we had a limited attack in 2003 with only DiCanio really outstanding but at least the likes of Bartlett, JJ and Lisbie put the hard yards in and didn't stand round waiting for miracle balls like Marcus Bent and JFH. Darren Bent is, of course, different gravy. What does "perceived" value mean anyway? The only value that matters is the value they give to the side WHEN THEY GET HERE, perceived value means bugger all when it comes to the real thing. That's the whole point, the fact that we have brought in so many uncommited mercenaries is what has caused us to fall backwards at such an alarming rate and to have our poorest performing squad for donkeys years.
Ormiston - I actually rate our current defence - especially when we went a few games without conceding ( I know it seems a while back now) Carson is a star (if on loan) - the back four of 4 years ago would only get a game in a yo-yo team but they were well organized I agree the midfield is nothing compared to Parker / Jensen - and Dowie tried playing Romm AND Thomas in a four man midfield when we need five in there - partly to squeeze and partly because up front - well without Darren Bent it's shocking - no wonder Boro (who are not very good) can turn us over. There was a thread on the spine of the team - basically I believe, with Pardew, that one by one he will mould a team which works because he's been there - both playing in the middle of the park and growing squads as a manager.
I fully agree with your point about mercenaries and perceived value - we've already lost Traore and I doubt we will renew JFH - by the start of next season (whatever division we are in) I firmly believe that most of this mess will be cleaned up
We can and always should compare (and live up to 4th place Christmas 3 years ago) No-one matches Darren Bent in ALL of my 33 years of following Charlton. Scott Parker was good but (like Deschamps) just a water carrier ! Rommadahl is the fastest winger I have seen in Charlton colours. Individually this current squad has the talent with only two or three replacements / additions. After all it has been good enough to stay up all this time - and then there's young Lisbie to come back!
And selling Parker paid for the whole of the new North Stand
As for blood sweat and tears, well we've all seen that in the yo-yo teams of 97-2001 and we would like to see more - the club has got to sort out the production line of signings and academy players so that we only have to welcome 3 or 4 decent, honaest, talented new faces every year and NOT 7 or 8!
By the way I think Diawara could be the new Rufus and El K can create goals with 60 yd passes!
I know what you mean SR, I think our defence is individually good but collectively very poor. EL Karkouri is the prime example - I just CANNOT make my mind up whether he is crap or brilliant. One minute he is producing a great turn to get out of trouble or playing a sublime pass and the next he is falling over the ball, giving away a dumb free kick or overhead kicking the ball clear when he has no idea where the clearance will fall!
He is a footballer - he can play a bit - Personally I think he is a star and that Charlton need to embrace entertainment with a few overheads!
Curbishley at West Ham has already speant a fortune and consigned Konchesky to the transfer list and fallen out with Ferdinand!!! Whereas Pardew will develop a team playing football (much as Dowie tried and to some extent failed to do)
Basically we need strong characters AND footballers like El K and Diawara who can intercept, dummy and send out 60 yd passes - sort out central midfield and we will see the differemce - buy a decent second striker or develop someone like Sam and we will move from 3-1 down to 2-1 up before the money runs out.
I have to agree with Ormiston...the Charlton side of two/three seasons ago was far more entertaining to watch and re-iterate his point - it had more character about it.
Charlton at the moment have the talented players but lack a couple of key players in midfield to battle for possession and take the game to the opposition. What we are lacking are a couple of leaders - a Parker or a Kinsella say. At the moment we look rudderless going forward, lacking real conviction. That is doubly bad - not only do we not make the most of opportunities but other teams sense they can push up without too much risk of being counter-attacked.
Comments
As for Stuart, I thought he was a much under-rated player and if you look back at those golden years 2000-2004 you will see that he created a lot of goals for us from those wide areas with his good passing, he also ran his nuts off and could never be faulted for a lack of effort.
I would not swap either of them for any of that current shower of shite apart from maybe Holland.
Robert Green now dropped for Carroll
Bowyer out injured.
Yeah they did well getting them players ahead of us.
Look at Ashley Young, Shaun Wright-Phillips, Lauren and others all turning down West Ham who are nowhere near as much in the shit as we are - who do you think we are going to attract, Ronaldinho?
Actually, there IS a point comparing our current squad to the squad of 2003 because it PROVES that we have gone backwards, we had better players then than we had now, I don't see why that is so damned hard to understand when it is sticking out like dogs balls.
the perceived quality of the players now is a lot higher that the class of 2003. If the players of 2007 showed anything like the commitment and desire of the 2003 squad then i genuinely believe we would be a top 10 club.
I was even there in the darkest days when we were getting 800 in the FMC at Selhurst so I've more than earned my stripes boy.
I know we are a hell of a lot better off now than we were 15 years ago, duh, but my point is that our team has gone backwards alarmingly over the last four years - just check out that thing called the league table, that will probably clear things up for you.
How can ANYONE say that our current back four Young-El Kak-HH-Thatcher is a BETTER unit than our 2003 version of Young-Rufus-Fish/Rowett-Powell? The 2003 unit was FAR better as can be seen by the fact we conceded only 51 goals all season - we have conceded 42 already in just 23 games this year.
Midfield? Mate, Stuart, Parker, Jensen and Euell are simply in a DIFFERENT CLASS to Ambrose, Holland, Hughes, Faye and the rest of the shite we have on board now. Parker, Jensen and Euell all left for Premiership clubs, how many Premiership clubs would sign ANY of our current midfield. Nobody.
Sure, we had a limited attack in 2003 with only DiCanio really outstanding but at least the likes of Bartlett, JJ and Lisbie put the hard yards in and didn't stand round waiting for miracle balls like Marcus Bent and JFH. Darren Bent is, of course, different gravy.
What does "perceived" value mean anyway? The only value that matters is the value they give to the side WHEN THEY GET HERE, perceived value means bugger all when it comes to the real thing.
That's the whole point, the fact that we have brought in so many uncommited mercenaries is what has caused us to fall backwards at such an alarming rate and to have our poorest performing squad for donkeys years.
I agree the midfield is nothing compared to Parker / Jensen - and Dowie tried playing Romm AND Thomas in a four man midfield when we need five in there - partly to squeeze and partly because up front - well without Darren Bent it's shocking - no wonder Boro (who are not very good) can turn us over. There was a thread on the spine of the team - basically I believe, with Pardew, that one by one he will mould a team which works because he's been there - both playing in the middle of the park and growing squads as a manager.
I fully agree with your point about mercenaries and perceived value - we've already lost Traore and I doubt we will renew JFH - by the start of next season (whatever division we are in) I firmly believe that most of this mess will be cleaned up
And selling Parker paid for the whole of the new North Stand
As for blood sweat and tears, well we've all seen that in the yo-yo teams of 97-2001 and we would like to see more - the club has got to sort out the production line of signings and academy players so that we only have to welcome 3 or 4 decent, honaest, talented new faces every year and NOT 7 or 8!
By the way I think Diawara could be the new Rufus and El K can create goals with 60 yd passes!
EL Karkouri is the prime example - I just CANNOT make my mind up whether he is crap or brilliant. One minute he is producing a great turn to get out of trouble or playing a sublime pass and the next he is falling over the ball, giving away a dumb free kick or overhead kicking the ball clear when he has no idea where the clearance will fall!
Curbishley at West Ham has already speant a fortune and consigned Konchesky to the transfer list and fallen out with Ferdinand!!! Whereas Pardew will develop a team playing football (much as Dowie tried and to some extent failed to do)
Basically we need strong characters AND footballers like El K and Diawara who can intercept, dummy and send out 60 yd passes - sort out central midfield and we will see the differemce - buy a decent second striker or develop someone like Sam and we will move from 3-1 down to 2-1 up before the money runs out.
Charlton at the moment have the talented players but lack a couple of key players in midfield to battle for possession and take the game to the opposition. What we are lacking are a couple of leaders - a Parker or a Kinsella say. At the moment we look rudderless going forward, lacking real conviction. That is doubly bad - not only do we not make the most of opportunities but other teams sense they can push up without too much risk of being counter-attacked.