[cite]Posted By: Alex Wright[/cite]you're forgetting her wanting to introduce compulsory ID cards for football fans.
[cite]Posted By: Alex Wright[/cite]you're forgetting her wanting to introduce compulsory ID cards for football fans.
Not true...and indeed it never happened did it?
[cite]Posted By: ShootersHillGuru[/cite]Living in London and the South East gives us a very blinkered opinion of what goes on in those areas of the country that cannot rely on the City of London and all its spin offs. Huge areas of the north and midlands were layed waste by Mrs Thathers policies and her spiteful attitude towards anyone not able to look after themselves.
They wern't walking around with their arses hanging out of their trousers...I was touring all over the country at that time and it wasn't 'that' bad....and they soon got over it if it was.
[quote][cite]Posted By: RedArmySE7[/cite][quote][cite]Posted By: Dave Rudd[/cite][quote][cite]Posted By: ShootersHillGuru[/cite]Many prospered and I am glad you did well. Lots suffered badly.[/quote]
And isn't that Thatcherism in a nutshell?[/quote]
Anyone else singing this in the style of Harry Hill?![/quote]
[cite]Posted By: Alex Wright[/cite]you're forgetting her wanting to introduce compulsory ID cards for football fans.
When you look at the extent of the 'English Disease' from that period including Heysel, football ID cards were thought to be answer to the problem, the majority of football fans, with nothing to fear, welcomed them, but it was the namby pamby 'citizens rights' groups and the football clubs themselves that put the kybosh on it....
I have strong feelings about Thatcher and her governments, as do others who oppose my view. They will never be reconciled, so this thread is not going to give any objective answers to the op's question.
But for the record I will be celebrating her death when it happens.
Shame someone like her isn't around now - soon have this economic problem sorted out !
Great piece in the Daily Mail last week, comparing the last time we had a hung parliament (1974) to now. In early 1974 the country was at a standstill with power workers & miners on strike and the country having daily blackouts culminating ina 3-day week (ask your parents if you don't know what this meant). Ted Heath (conservative) called a general election and the result was that the Tory's lost by just 3 seats - Heath tried to hang onto power by doing a deal with the Liberals (as was then) but a pact with the Liberals didn't work and another election was called at which point Labour won with Harold wilson as PM . First thing he did was to cave into the miners , giving them a 32% pay increase to get them back to work !!!!!!!!!! After them nurses, teachers, civil servants etc etc all wanted the same and wage inflation reached 20% - just when things needed to go down ! Things got so bad that the top rate of tax reached 83%
So, back to Thatcher............when faced with the same problems she stuck to her guns - made sure cuts were made when needed and ending with the miners strike in 1984. It may seem harsh to some but you do have to hold your nerve.........just look at Greece!
If labour seize control today then they will not put the measures in place to reduce our deficeit until next year.........at which time things will be much.much worse.
[cite]Posted By: SoundAsa£[/cite] Not true...and indeed it never happened did it?
Yes. True. I'm sure you'll find it on Google, can't be bothered to post the link.
Think it was actually proposed by that good friend of Charlton, Colin Moynihan, the minister of sport on Maggies insistance. Ironic that Moynihan was a guest of honour at a Charlton open day at the training gound once.
[cite]Posted By: Alex Wright[/cite]you're forgetting her wanting to introduce compulsory ID cards for football fans.
Yes, that was bonkers. At the time and despite all the footie-related violence, on a per capitata basis, football fans were only at No. 3 in the "whose most likely to get arrested" charts. At No.1 were members of the armed forces and at No. 2 were members of parliament. I suspect those two groups are probably still vying for top spot but may have been overtaken by members of the constabulary?
[cite]Posted By: Alex Wright[/cite]you're forgetting her wanting to introduce compulsory ID cards for football fans.
Yes, that was bonkers. At the time and despite all the footie-related violence, on a per capitata basis, football fans were only at No. 3 in the "whose most likely to get arrested" charts. At No.1 were members of the armed forces and at No. 2 were members of parliament. I suspect those two groups are probably still vying for top spot but may have been overtaken by members of the constabulary?
The Football Spectators Act of 1989 made ID cards compulsory but was abandoned after the deaths of 96 spectators at the Hillsborough disaster...
But like smudge7946 says, practically every club now has a system in place where only signed up 'genuine' fans can get tickets to certain games....
This has been made largely possible by vast improvements in computer database systems and the internet....
Around the time of the Hillsborough disaster many fans started up what were to become the modern day 'fanzines' which allowed fans to talk to each other and discuss real issues that bugged the game in those days and from that came what we now know as the Football Supporters Asssociation which has quite a strong political voice in the game today...
In fact, what we have here in the form of Charlton Life is a direct descendant of those fanzines...
POSTED BY RedZed333 "No, that would be the 3,000,000 that were left in the shite by a hopeless Labour government that led us into a worldwide recession"
Lol. How for the love of Mike did Labour lead us into a WORLDWIDE recession ?????????? There is a clue for you in your own statement.
[cite]Posted By: ShootersHillGuru[/cite]POSTED BY RedZed333 "No, that would be the 3,000,000 that were left in the shite by a hopeless Labour government that led us into a worldwide recession"
Lol. How for the love of Mike did Labour lead us into a WORLDWIDE recession ?????????? There is a clue for you in your own statement.
When Thatcher took power in 1979 it was on the back of the worst worldwide recesion since the war, Labour led us into that...
I'm not saying Labour caused it, but they led it us headlong into without a clue of how to get out of it, Thatcher did know and she did succeed in making the Britain one of the most strongest and competitive nations in the world, until Bliar et al came along and fcuked it all up again...
[cite]Posted By: ShootersHillGuru[/cite]POSTED BY RedZed333 "No, that would be the 3,000,000 that were left in the shite by a hopeless Labour government that led us into a worldwide recession"
Lol. How for the love of Mike did Labour lead us into a WORLDWIDE recession ?????????? There is a clue for you in your own statement.
When Thatcher took power in 1979 it was on the back of the worst worldwide recesion since the war, Labour led us into that...
I'm not saying Labour caused it, but they led it us headlong into without a clue of how to get out of it, Thatcher did know and she did succeed in making the Britain one of the most strongest and competitive nations in the world, until Bliar et al came along and fcuked it all up again...
Thats why the Conservative government got kicked out by the electorate I suppose.
Under Maggie I got to go to University where all my tuition fees were paid, and I got a full maintenance grant to live on. It was possible to get a good further education, regardless of your financial background
Spiteful despot who, at best, took a sledgehammer to crack a nut. Even those who trumpet her "achievements" conveniently overlook the damage she did to so many lives, but hey, if you made a quick few quid from the short-sighted flogging off of our utilities, who cares about an entire generation with nothing to aim for in Pontefract? The social damage she inflicted on certain parts of the country still claims victims today. For a leader to deny that "society" / government has a duty to protect the poor is nothing short of appalling.
Not worth going on and on here, but it beggars belief and saddens me that someone who readily greeted a mass murderer with the blood of thousands of tortured Chileans on his hands can possibly be held up as some sort of saviour. Moderating the power of trade unions might be seen by some as a political achievement, but when the same brutal force is used to crush any opposition, can the end possibly justify the means? Clearly, devoid of ethics, she thought so.
[cite]Posted By: ShootersHillGuru[/cite]POSTED BY RedZed333 "No, that would be the 3,000,000 that were left in the shite by a hopeless Labour government that led us into a worldwide recession"
Lol. How for the love of Mike did Labour lead us into a WORLDWIDE recession ?????????? There is a clue for you in your own statement.
When Thatcher took power in 1979 it was on the back of the worst worldwide recesion since the war, Labour led us into that...
I'm not saying Labour caused it, but they led it us headlong into without a clue of how to get out of it, Thatcher did know and she did succeed in making the Britain one of the most strongest and competitive nations in the world, until Bliar et al came along and fcuked it all up again...
I'm not going to takes sides, but I really fail to see how Labour, who gained power in 97, can be blamed for the stock market crash of the late 80s or the massive recession in the early 90s.
Conservative policies of the 80s created a boom and bust culture that Labour, by becoming New Labour and apeing much of what made the Conservatives attractive to voters, has continued. You can argue that the whole Boom/Bust cycle started earlier than the 80s, but it's hard to argue that it didn't become more extreme during the 80s.
I think if you look at the core beliefs of the parties (Con = small government, minimal oversight, low taxes, business friendly; Lab = big goverment, regulation, tax and spend, socialism-lite) then the conservatives are probably the more suited to the current situation of a need to massively reduce public spending and spur the economy. However, the conservative under thatcher and major weilded a rather blunt weapon when it came to cutting spending. As Razil hints, rather than coming up with a fairer, more efficient system and therefore saving billions by not handing out money that really shouldn't, they have in the past simply cut benefits for all. There were still the same number claiming fraudulantly, still the same number getting more than they should, just everybody got less. Nothing I have seen so far hints that this Conservative party would be any better at fairly cutting benefits.
The problem with this country, the same as all others and all large organisations, is it is deeply inefficient on so many levels. Every council pays for services seperate from others, there's too much beauracracy (which has grown massively under the current government). It should, in theory, be possible save billions through efficiency gains alone, but that would take investment. Unfortunately every politician thinks no further than the next election, so none will spend now to make things better. When it comes to election time their opponents will happily show how much they spent, will shouting down the fact it will save far more in the long run.
And that's the problem with democracy, short-termism dominates and therefore real improvements are hard to find as they tend to take the sort of foresight and long term planning our democracy positively discourages.
[cite]Posted By: Paddy7[/cite]Not worth going on and on here, but it beggars belief and saddens me that someone who readily greeted a mass murderer with the blood of thousands of tortured Chileans on his hands can possibly be held up as some sort of saviour. Moderating the power of trade unions might be seen by some as a political achievement, but when the same brutal force is used to crush any opposition, can the end possibly justify the means? Clearly, devoid of ethics, she thought so.
She's a disgrace.
Let's not be so choosy about our brutal South American mass murderers...
If it hadn't been for the Chilean support we couldn't have even set sail for the Falklands and all our sheep imports from the Falklands would have now Produce de Malvinas stamped on it....
Oh, that's ok then RedZed. Let's not worry about all those tortured and murdered by their own unelected leader. Well worth that to secure another term.
[cite]Posted By: Paddy7[/cite]Oh, that's ok then RedZed. Let's not worry about all those tortured and murdered by their own unelected leader. Well worth that to secure another term.
[cite]Posted By: Paddy7[/cite]Spiteful despot who, at best, took a sledgehammer to crack a nut. Even those who trumpet her "achievements" conveniently overlook the damage she did to so many lives, but hey, if you made a quick few quid from the short-sighted flogging off of our utilities, who cares about an entire generation with nothing to aim for in Pontefract? The social damage she inflicted on certain parts of the country still claims victims today. For a leader to deny that "society" / government has a duty to protect the poor is nothing short of appalling.
Not worth going on and on here, but it beggars belief and saddens me that someone who readily greeted a mass murderer with the blood of thousands of tortured Chileans on his hands can possibly be held up as some sort of saviour. Moderating the power of trade unions might be seen by some as a political achievement, but when the same brutal force is used to crush any opposition, can the end possibly justify the means? Clearly, devoid of ethics, she thought so.
She's a disgrace.
When Pinochet's extradition, which was requested by Spain, came to nothing, Thatcher sent him a gift of a silver plate commemorating the defeat of the Spanish Armada. Says it all really, mad old bat.
I despised her at the time, but now after 20 years maturity and an appreciation of politics, people and economics learnt through life, experience and study. Well now I really fucking hate her. I will be throwing a street party when she dies.
[cite]Posted By: Paddy7[/cite]Oh, that's ok then RedZed. Let's not worry about all those tortured and murdered by their own unelected leader. Well worth that to secure another term.
To suggest Thatcher sent the task force to regain the Falklands so she could secure another election is rather naive...
Galtieri didn't invade the islands because he liked lamb chops, after he seized control in Argentina he built up the military and made no secret of his expansion plans to regain 'stolen' Argentinian terrority from widespread areas throughout South America, which is the same excuse Saadam Hussein used to invade Kuwait...
The Falklands were the only sizable land mass any aggressor could have used as a base to deny him his expansionist desires, he grossly underestimated the British resolve to hold on to the one of the most strategic pieces of land in the world...
And using selective distasteful episodes from history does you no use either, every nation in the world has carried despicable atrocities upon the innocent but we still do political business with them went it suits us, who do you think invented the concentration camps...?
I worked as an NHS doctor throughout her term, and saw the service virtually collapse around me. In essence, her politics was mean-spirited, even callous. She introduced the cult of macho-managerialism into the NHS, which was later to prevent the investment between 1997-2010 from having as much impact as it should have, Labour politicians having, for some reason, swallowed all the management consultancy gibberish. Nevertheless, the NHS is much better -- MUCH better -- now.
She gave us stealth tax she asset striped industry (cars,ships,utilities,oil,mines) anything they could was sold and the rest (mainly the people) dumped ------- it was called a "Free Market where everything is on a level playing field" except for most of us we wasnt even at the ground when they were on the playing field. Yet the Tories wave the Union flag ??
Hate her.
New Labour learnt everything from them. Watch New Statesman (Alan Bastard) and think of the expences bollox. Remember labour came into clean up the sleeze. Think of stealth tax how they love it (look at petrol). Think they took us into 2 wars , Thatcher one. Most coutries when in the crap of a recession with huge debts can let their currency fall and therfore make their exports more competative , except we cant as we have a tiny fraction og industry/exports thanks to Thatcher and new labour -------- horay.
Both had total and uter contempt for the voter--------"give me your X in the box and your cash and f**k off" should be their Party line.
Comments
They wern't walking around with their arses hanging out of their trousers...I was touring all over the country at that time and it wasn't 'that' bad....and they soon got over it if it was.
And isn't that Thatcherism in a nutshell?[/quote]
Anyone else singing this in the style of Harry Hill?![/quote]
That's it, Stouffer. You help.
But for the record I will be celebrating her death when it happens.
Great piece in the Daily Mail last week, comparing the last time we had a hung parliament (1974) to now. In early 1974 the country was at a standstill with power workers & miners on strike and the country having daily blackouts culminating ina 3-day week (ask your parents if you don't know what this meant). Ted Heath (conservative) called a general election and the result was that the Tory's lost by just 3 seats - Heath tried to hang onto power by doing a deal with the Liberals (as was then) but a pact with the Liberals didn't work and another election was called at which point Labour won with Harold wilson as PM . First thing he did was to cave into the miners , giving them a 32% pay increase to get them back to work !!!!!!!!!! After them nurses, teachers, civil servants etc etc all wanted the same and wage inflation reached 20% - just when things needed to go down ! Things got so bad that the top rate of tax reached 83%
So, back to Thatcher............when faced with the same problems she stuck to her guns - made sure cuts were made when needed and ending with the miners strike in 1984. It may seem harsh to some but you do have to hold your nerve.........just look at Greece!
If labour seize control today then they will not put the measures in place to reduce our deficeit until next year.........at which time things will be much.much worse.
Think it was actually proposed by that good friend of Charlton, Colin Moynihan, the minister of sport on Maggies insistance. Ironic that Moynihan was a guest of honour at a Charlton open day at the training gound once.
But like smudge7946 says, practically every club now has a system in place where only signed up 'genuine' fans can get tickets to certain games....
This has been made largely possible by vast improvements in computer database systems and the internet....
Around the time of the Hillsborough disaster many fans started up what were to become the modern day 'fanzines' which allowed fans to talk to each other and discuss real issues that bugged the game in those days and from that came what we now know as the Football Supporters Asssociation which has quite a strong political voice in the game today...
In fact, what we have here in the form of Charlton Life is a direct descendant of those fanzines...
Lol. How for the love of Mike did Labour lead us into a WORLDWIDE recession ?????????? There is a clue for you in your own statement.
I think I'll leave you with the words of Declan MacMannus
I'm not saying Labour caused it, but they led it us headlong into without a clue of how to get out of it, Thatcher did know and she did succeed in making the Britain one of the most strongest and competitive nations in the world, until Bliar et al came along and fcuked it all up again...
Thats why the Conservative government got kicked out by the electorate I suppose.
Not worth going on and on here, but it beggars belief and saddens me that someone who readily greeted a mass murderer with the blood of thousands of tortured Chileans on his hands can possibly be held up as some sort of saviour. Moderating the power of trade unions might be seen by some as a political achievement, but when the same brutal force is used to crush any opposition, can the end possibly justify the means? Clearly, devoid of ethics, she thought so.
She's a disgrace.
I'm not going to takes sides, but I really fail to see how Labour, who gained power in 97, can be blamed for the stock market crash of the late 80s or the massive recession in the early 90s.
Conservative policies of the 80s created a boom and bust culture that Labour, by becoming New Labour and apeing much of what made the Conservatives attractive to voters, has continued. You can argue that the whole Boom/Bust cycle started earlier than the 80s, but it's hard to argue that it didn't become more extreme during the 80s.
I think if you look at the core beliefs of the parties (Con = small government, minimal oversight, low taxes, business friendly; Lab = big goverment, regulation, tax and spend, socialism-lite) then the conservatives are probably the more suited to the current situation of a need to massively reduce public spending and spur the economy. However, the conservative under thatcher and major weilded a rather blunt weapon when it came to cutting spending. As Razil hints, rather than coming up with a fairer, more efficient system and therefore saving billions by not handing out money that really shouldn't, they have in the past simply cut benefits for all. There were still the same number claiming fraudulantly, still the same number getting more than they should, just everybody got less. Nothing I have seen so far hints that this Conservative party would be any better at fairly cutting benefits.
The problem with this country, the same as all others and all large organisations, is it is deeply inefficient on so many levels. Every council pays for services seperate from others, there's too much beauracracy (which has grown massively under the current government). It should, in theory, be possible save billions through efficiency gains alone, but that would take investment. Unfortunately every politician thinks no further than the next election, so none will spend now to make things better. When it comes to election time their opponents will happily show how much they spent, will shouting down the fact it will save far more in the long run.
And that's the problem with democracy, short-termism dominates and therefore real improvements are hard to find as they tend to take the sort of foresight and long term planning our democracy positively discourages.
If it hadn't been for the Chilean support we couldn't have even set sail for the Falklands and all our sheep imports from the Falklands would have now Produce de Malvinas stamped on it....
Hear Hear.
I'll be turning the volume up to 11 when that day comes.
(You beat me to posting that song)
When Pinochet's extradition, which was requested by Spain, came to nothing, Thatcher sent him a gift of a silver plate commemorating the defeat of the Spanish Armada. Says it all really, mad old bat.
Galtieri didn't invade the islands because he liked lamb chops, after he seized control in Argentina he built up the military and made no secret of his expansion plans to regain 'stolen' Argentinian terrority from widespread areas throughout South America, which is the same excuse Saadam Hussein used to invade Kuwait...
The Falklands were the only sizable land mass any aggressor could have used as a base to deny him his expansionist desires, he grossly underestimated the British resolve to hold on to the one of the most strategic pieces of land in the world...
And using selective distasteful episodes from history does you no use either, every nation in the world has carried despicable atrocities upon the innocent but we still do political business with them went it suits us, who do you think invented the concentration camps...?
the conservatives?
she asset striped industry (cars,ships,utilities,oil,mines) anything they could was sold and the rest (mainly the people) dumped ------- it was called a "Free Market where everything is on a level playing field" except for most of us we wasnt even at the ground when they were on the playing field. Yet the Tories wave the Union flag ??
Hate her.
New Labour learnt everything from them. Watch New Statesman (Alan Bastard) and think of the expences bollox. Remember labour came into clean up the sleeze. Think of stealth tax how they love it (look at petrol). Think they took us into 2 wars , Thatcher one. Most coutries when in the crap of a recession with huge debts can let their currency fall and therfore make their exports more competative , except we cant as we have a tiny fraction og industry/exports thanks to Thatcher and new labour -------- horay.
Both had total and uter contempt for the voter--------"give me your X in the box and your cash and f**k off" should be their Party line.