[cite]Posted By: Sussex_Addick[/cite]As a Charlton fan I naturally worship Darren and all he did for us, but trying to take an objective view in terms of the team, I can't see where his place is.
Firstly, Heskey has to start.
Why do people always bang on about Heskey's goalscoring record? He's not in the team to score goals, he's there to create space for others. It doesn't matter who scores the goals as long as goals are scored. The game plan is to try and get the most out of the attacking midfield where we have some exceptional quality, and seeing as we qualified as the top goalscorers in Europe, I would humbly suggest that Mr Capello knows what he's doing.
I often see 'Ok so we play better when Heskey plays but..' Where's the but? The team plays better, end of. Football is a team game and Heskey is currently an integral part of that team. If Bent comes in, scores a couple of goals, but partly nullifies the effectiveness of Rooney, Gerrard and Lampard then the team has not been improved.
Now if Bent could perform Heskey's role plus goals then that would be ideal, but that seems unlikely, and even if he can there's not enough time pre-world cup to ascertain that. Bent is a better player than Heskey, but the Sven era was plagued by trying to fit the 11 best players into a team for the sake of it, rather than picking the bestteam. At the moment, Heskey plays an important role in forming the best team.
So, that leaves a slot as an impact player to consider, which is a trickier one. Crouch and Defoe currently have those nailed down and not undeservedly. Crouch's international scoring record is excellent and he's proven many times that he will get goals for England. Admittedly, one of the accusations leveled against him is that he's a bit of a flat track bully and doesn't have the quality against the likes of Spain, Brazil etc.
However, there's a few games to play before we can start thinking about semi finals against Spain and it must be remembered that Algeria, Slovenia and USA have to be put away first. I for one will be very happy if Crouch performs his flat track bully thing at an important time in any of those games. He's proven that he's a fine squad option and therefore has to be on the plane.
With regards to Defoe, I think he is the one that Bent has the best chance of displacing, as they are directly competing for the 'nippy poacher off the bench' slot. Yet Bent is at a disadvantage of still being a relatively unknown quantity at international level whilst Defoe has proven to be effective at this role several times (one example being when he came off the bench to score two goals against Holland in Amsterdam). Whether or not Bent is better than Defoe is open to dispute but it's probably too late for him to stake a claim stronger than Defoe's.
I feel desperately sorry for Bent considering he's done all he can by scoring 24 goals this season. But I think it's too late for him to prove that he will be important to the team's chances of winning the world cup. The idea of 'he's scored 24 goals, he has to go' is too simplistic. I think his time will probably come, but he needs a prolonged opportunity to see how he fits into the side. As it stands, there's not enough time for that and he may well be one for Euro 2012 instead.
Id put crouch infront of the donkey... crouch has a ridiculous international scoring record
[cite]Posted By: Sussex_Addick[/cite]blah blah really long post
Id put crouch infront of the donkey... crouch has a ridiculous international scoring record
Did you read what I said? My point was Heskey's role transcends simply goal scoring. Crouch may have a good goal scoring record but despite his height, he isn't actually particularly good in the air or at holding up. The idea that he's a traditional 'big man' type player is a fallacy
I did... and you don't need a hold up player when crouch is scoring over one per game (internationally) and rooney is banging them in - especially not against the smaller teams
[cite]Posted By: UP...THE...ADDICKS[/cite]I did... and you don't need a hold up player when crouch is scoring over one per game (internationally) and rooney is banging them in - especially not against the smaller teams
Equally you could say you don't need Crouch when the midfielders are banging them in due to being played in and freed up by a target man.
I don't believe in this obsession with strikers always having to score almost all the goals. As long as there are goals, who cares who scores them? I'll draw a (loose) comparison with Charlton this season, where there's been plenty of moans about not having a 20 goal a season striker compared to the other top sides. However, most of those sides don't have a goal scoring midfielder of the quality of Bailey, so it evens out. If you took 7-8 goals off Bailey's tally and added them to Burton to make him a '20 goal a season striker' the team wouldn't be any better off.
I'm sure Crouch would be a decent option to start against the small teams, but the only reason to change to that would be if we were struggling to put smaller teams away. And all the evidence says that we are not.
Why do people always bang on about Heskey's goalscoring record? He's not in the team to score goals, he's there to create space for others.
Disagree entirely the primary job of a striker is to score goals full stop. Heskey cannot do that. If you need a balance of hold up and goals take Crouch
my strikers would be Bent, Crouch, Defoe and Rooney
[cite]Posted By: Dazzler21[/cite]
Disagree entirely the primary job of a striker is to score goals full stop.
See this is my point, why? Did Capello get it wrong picking Heskey against Croatia at home considering Heskey didn't score? Or was he in fact justified by the fact the game plan worked perfectly, Lampard and Gerrard got 2 goals each, and the team won 5-1.
I agree that a balance of hold up and goals is ideal, but we don't seem to have a player to do that at the moment.
[cite]Posted By: Dazzler21[/cite]Disagree entirely the primary job of a striker is to score goals full stop.
It's just not that simple though. Burton's main job for us hasn't been to score goals, in League One at least, he is there to score, create and generally help with the build up when we have the ball.
England were top scorers in the whole of Europe, most of the time with Heskey in the team. Crouch would score more yes, but would Rooney play as well alongside him? If Heskey gets more out of Rooney, Gerrard and Lampard when we have the ball, is that not better than them just playing ok?
Crouch just isn't that same type of player. I can see why people suggest Cole or Zamora, but Heskey is far more experienced at international level. As much as we all like Bent, starting him alongside Rooney wouldn't get the best out of the team either, nor would starting Defoe with Rooney.
For me it comes down to playing the best team, as S_A said. Can be debated if Heskey should be in the team, but it can't be denied we scored plenty of goals in qualifying with Heskey in the team.
[cite]Posted By: Scoham[/cite]Crouch would score more yes, but would Rooney play as well alongside him? If Heskey gets more out of Rooney, Gerrard and Lampard when we have the ball, is that not better than them just playing ok?
This is what I was getting at, fans need to broaden their thinking a little. It's not simply Heskey v Crouch but more 'combination of Heskey, Gerrard, Lampard and Rooney' v 'combination of Crouch, Gerrard, Lampard and Rooney'
[cite]Posted By: Scoham[/cite]Crouch would score more yes, but would Rooney play as well alongside him? If Heskey gets more out of Rooney, Gerrard and Lampard when we have the ball, is that not better than them just playing ok?
This is what I was getting at, fans need to broaden their thinking a little. It's not simply Heskey v Crouch but more 'combination of Heskey, Gerrard, Lampard and Rooney' v 'combination of Crouch, Gerrard, Lampard and Rooney'
But who is to say we wouldn't have scored all those goals without Heskey playing? Rooney has proved this season that he doesn't need a strike partner- he's had his most prolific season without one. Therefore we can get rid of Heskey, put Gerrard in his favourite position and stick Milner on the left.
[cite]Posted By: Scoham[/cite]Crouch would score more yes, but would Rooney play as well alongside him? If Heskey gets more out of Rooney, Gerrard and Lampard when we have the ball, is that not better than them just playing ok?
This is what I was getting at, fans need to broaden their thinking a little. It's not simply Heskey v Crouch but more 'combination of Heskey, Gerrard, Lampard and Rooney' v 'combination of Crouch, Gerrard, Lampard and Rooney'
But who is to say we wouldn't have scored all those goals without Heskey playing?
Capello? One of the most decorated managers of the last decade.
Your suggestion might also be a good one, I don't know. But the point is we have scored all those goals with Heskey in the side. It's done, it's proven, the goals have been scored and the matches been won. Any alternative suggestions about how it could have been done firstly seems superfluous considering what we had worked, and secondly are pure speculation as to whether they would have worked even as well, let alone worked better.
Capello was brought in to win football matches and he's been doing that with aplomb. I personally trust in his judgement that Heskey is an important part of his gameplan.
As much as I'd love to see Bent go, I hate to say it... but I agree with Sussex. Heskey has a role to play and he does it well, and Crouch and Defoe offer more as subs/backup.
[cite]Posted By: Scoham[/cite]Crouch would score more yes, but would Rooney play as well alongside him? If Heskey gets more out of Rooney, Gerrard and Lampard when we have the ball, is that not better than them just playing ok?
This is what I was getting at, fans need to broaden their thinking a little. It's not simply Heskey v Crouch but more 'combination of Heskey, Gerrard, Lampard and Rooney' v 'combination of Crouch, Gerrard, Lampard and Rooney'
But who is to say we wouldn't have scored all those goals without Heskey playing?
Capello? One of the most decorated managers of the last decade.
Your suggestion might also be a good one, I don't know. But the point is wehavescored all those goals with Heskey in the side. It's done, it's proven, the goals have been scored and the matches been won. Any alternative suggestions about how it could have been done firstly seems superfluous considering what we had worked, and secondly are pure speculation as to whether they would have worked even as well, let alone worked better.
Capello was brought in to win football matches and he's been doing that with aplomb. I personally trust in his judgement that Heskey is an important part of his gameplan.
I can't argue with Capello's record.
However, I remain unconvinced by any argument that 'the space' created by a striker who has taken 5 seasons to score as many goals as Bent has this season is a better system than picking strikers who score more goals.
As you say though, he's unlikely to want to change a formula that works. I'm merely saying it could be even better.
As you say though, he's unlikely to want to change a formula that works. I'm merely saying it could be even better.
Some people are never happy ;-)
Despite my argument that it doesn't make sense for Bent go, I'm going to take my objective cap off and say I actually want him to go ahead of Defoe. He's not as proven or perhaps even as good an option off the bench, but there's not an awful lot in it (as in it wouldn't so dent our chances as to sway my bias) and I'd love to see him go for his sake. I doubt I'd take him if I was England manager, but as a Charlton fan with huge respect for Darren I want to see him there!
Comments
Id put crouch infront of the donkey... crouch has a ridiculous international scoring record
Did you read what I said? My point was Heskey's role transcends simply goal scoring. Crouch may have a good goal scoring record but despite his height, he isn't actually particularly good in the air or at holding up. The idea that he's a traditional 'big man' type player is a fallacy
Equally you could say you don't need Crouch when the midfielders are banging them in due to being played in and freed up by a target man.
I don't believe in this obsession with strikers always having to score almost all the goals. As long as there are goals, who cares who scores them? I'll draw a (loose) comparison with Charlton this season, where there's been plenty of moans about not having a 20 goal a season striker compared to the other top sides. However, most of those sides don't have a goal scoring midfielder of the quality of Bailey, so it evens out. If you took 7-8 goals off Bailey's tally and added them to Burton to make him a '20 goal a season striker' the team wouldn't be any better off.
I'm sure Crouch would be a decent option to start against the small teams, but the only reason to change to that would be if we were struggling to put smaller teams away. And all the evidence says that we are not.
Disagree entirely the primary job of a striker is to score goals full stop. Heskey cannot do that. If you need a balance of hold up and goals take Crouch
my strikers would be Bent, Crouch, Defoe and Rooney
See this is my point, why? Did Capello get it wrong picking Heskey against Croatia at home considering Heskey didn't score? Or was he in fact justified by the fact the game plan worked perfectly, Lampard and Gerrard got 2 goals each, and the team won 5-1.
I agree that a balance of hold up and goals is ideal, but we don't seem to have a player to do that at the moment.
England were top scorers in the whole of Europe, most of the time with Heskey in the team. Crouch would score more yes, but would Rooney play as well alongside him? If Heskey gets more out of Rooney, Gerrard and Lampard when we have the ball, is that not better than them just playing ok?
Crouch just isn't that same type of player. I can see why people suggest Cole or Zamora, but Heskey is far more experienced at international level. As much as we all like Bent, starting him alongside Rooney wouldn't get the best out of the team either, nor would starting Defoe with Rooney.
For me it comes down to playing the best team, as S_A said. Can be debated if Heskey should be in the team, but it can't be denied we scored plenty of goals in qualifying with Heskey in the team.
This is what I was getting at, fans need to broaden their thinking a little. It's not simply Heskey v Crouch but more 'combination of Heskey, Gerrard, Lampard and Rooney' v 'combination of Crouch, Gerrard, Lampard and Rooney'
But who is to say we wouldn't have scored all those goals without Heskey playing? Rooney has proved this season that he doesn't need a strike partner- he's had his most prolific season without one. Therefore we can get rid of Heskey, put Gerrard in his favourite position and stick Milner on the left.
Capello? One of the most decorated managers of the last decade.
Your suggestion might also be a good one, I don't know. But the point is we have scored all those goals with Heskey in the side. It's done, it's proven, the goals have been scored and the matches been won. Any alternative suggestions about how it could have been done firstly seems superfluous considering what we had worked, and secondly are pure speculation as to whether they would have worked even as well, let alone worked better.
Capello was brought in to win football matches and he's been doing that with aplomb. I personally trust in his judgement that Heskey is an important part of his gameplan.
I can't argue with Capello's record.
However, I remain unconvinced by any argument that 'the space' created by a striker who has taken 5 seasons to score as many goals as Bent has this season is a better system than picking strikers who score more goals.
As you say though, he's unlikely to want to change a formula that works. I'm merely saying it could be even better.
Some people are never happy ;-)
Despite my argument that it doesn't make sense for Bent go, I'm going to take my objective cap off and say I actually want him to go ahead of Defoe. He's not as proven or perhaps even as good an option off the bench, but there's not an awful lot in it (as in it wouldn't so dent our chances as to sway my bias) and I'd love to see him go for his sake. I doubt I'd take him if I was England manager, but as a Charlton fan with huge respect for Darren I want to see him there!
Too true
The big man's going to make it feel like a NASA mission for our midfielders
Nearly quit England.