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Safe Standing

edited March 2010 in General Charlton
Interesting photo from abroad presumably. Why O Why cant we bring this in and get the grounds jumping again, unreserved seating tho or your bound to get somebody who wants to sit behind you. How about just do this with a restricted capacity and not even bother putting the seats there.
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Comments

  • The new Morecombe stadium has safe standing!
  • is this a photo from one of our away days last season ; )
  • edited March 2010
    Start with the north lower, be fantastic to see this behind the goal again. Surely with the likes of Leeds, United, Spanners etc clubs like that that all stand throughout a game the authorities must realise that something like this is a safer option, all the clubs would have to do is put the barriers there, surely it wouldnt cost that much. keep the JSS seated though.

    Id be happy to pay say £500 for a season ticket to stand at home games in an area like this, would anyone else?
  • [cite]Posted By: Shrew[/cite]is this a photo from one of our away days last season ; )

    Looks like the "Home" end at Wallsall ;-)
  • [cite]Posted By: choice TV[/cite]Start with the north lower, be fantastic to see this behind the goal again. Surely with the likes of Leeds, United, Spanners etc clubs like that that all stand throughout a game the authorities must realise that something like this is a safer option, all the clubs would have to do is put the barriers there, surely it wouldnt cost that much. keep the JSS seated though.

    Id be happy to pay say £500 for a season ticket to stand at home games in an area like this, would anyone else?

    I would be more than happy to stand at The Valley. Enjoyed standing for the entire game at Roots Hall, apart from when the second goal went in I almost broke my knee caps.
  • I dont think i have sat down at the valley for about 10 years but then i have only ever been in J and H Block in the north upper.
  • [cite]Posted By: Ru1986[/cite]I dont think i have sat down at the valley for about 10 years but then i have only ever been in J and H Block in the north upper.

    Neither has AFKA, but no one notices...
  • I'd love to see standing return, but it just won't happen - the first time there's any crowd trouble or an injury to fans and the "I told you so" brigade are going to be out in force. Besides that the big clubs make more money from over-pricing seated areasd than they will from stands.
  • More likely to get injuries in seated areas if there is crowd trouble, too many obstacles and risk of falling.
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  • [cite]Posted By: Stone[/cite]
    [cite]Posted By: Ru1986[/cite]I dont think i have sat down at the valley for about 10 years but then i have only ever been in J and H Block in the north upper.

    Neither has AFKA, but no one notices...

    I see were does he sit?
  • I miss standing so much... the whole hillsborough thing would have happened even if it was seated that day!
  • [cite]Posted By: Mister Windscreen[/cite]Surely Lord Justice Taylors ruling can be played with as it doesnt seem to cover continental clubs.

    The best example being (24,454 all standing in the Südtribüne at Westfalenstadion)

    Please shoot me down in flames if I got this one wrong.

    Different countries so different laws.

    Charlton would love to have safe standing and bar the cost would do it ASAP but to operate the stadium they need a licence and the Football Licensing Authority refuse to even debate the issue. Believe me I tried to engage with the FLA rep on our Safety Advisory Group but he wouldn't listen and refused to even read the Safe Standings Report on safety and standing in Germany.

    Until central government makes a decision nothing will change but it is a political lose lose. You won't win votes but advocating it but you will lose them by supporting it. And as said above the first injury or fight will be blamed on the standing not the people involved.

    The flexible seats above are much safer than people standing in seated areas but as long as the FLA close their eyes to regular standing that happens at most ground and the local police and local authorities do the same nothing will change.
  • Depressing :-(
  • [cite]Posted By: Mister Windscreen[/cite]Surely Lord Justice Taylors ruling can be played with as it doesnt seem to cover continental clubs.

    The best example being (24,454 all standing in the Südtribüne at Westfalenstadion)

    Please shoot me down in flames if I got this one wrong.

    Lord Taylor's report was specific to UK football, not football in Europe.

    But stadia like the WestFalen do put seats in for European matches, or they will if Dortmund ever get to play in a European competition again.
  • Cant see why it would be a vote loser.
    The FLA need to get out more.
    South America has some fantastic stadia, largely standing, mainly with beer, soft drinks and snacks served where you stand.
  • [cite]Posted By: Mister Windscreen[/cite]So when a few hundred topple over in a seating area because of lack of barriers. will the against lobby say that's just tough shit?

    It depends, if they are Liverpool fans, the police, ground authorities, the FA will be blamed for the next 200 years and thousands will demand justice. If they are ordinary fans there'll be a civilised debate.
  • [cite]Posted By: BlackForestReds[/cite]
    [cite]Posted By: Mister Windscreen[/cite]So when a few hundred topple over in a seating area because of lack of barriers. will the against lobby say that's just tough shit?

    It depends, if they are Liverpool fans, the police, ground authorities, the FA will be blamed for the next 200 years and thousands will demand justice. If they are ordinary fans there'll be a civilised debate.

    Out of order to suggest that Liverpool fans were not ordinary fans. I bet you wouldn't dare say that to the parents who lost their children in that deathtrap.

    I support 'safe-standing areas' but the only way to change things is to organise something like a united football supporters march on Westminster.
  • The fact that a 9 year old boy on a trip I ran was refused entry due to having a flag on a thin dowling pole. Yet I can walk in with a pocket full of 2p coins to lob at all and sundry. That tells you all you need to know about the knobs in charge of safety in English grounds.
  • edited March 2010
    [cite]Posted By: Henry Irving[/cite]
    [cite]Posted By: Mister Windscreen[/cite]Surely Lord Justice Taylors ruling can be played with as it doesnt seem to cover continental clubs.

    The best example being (24,454 all standing in the Südtribüne at Westfalenstadion)

    Please shoot me down in flames if I got this one wrong.

    Different countries so different laws.

    The flexible seats above are much safer than people standing in seated areas but as long as the FLA close their eyes to regular standing that happens at most ground and the local police and local authorities do the same nothing will change.


    it was mentioned on the first response that morecombe have safe standing, how was that granted? or is it ok for lower league clubs redeveloping. there must be some flexibility somewhere then?
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  • I think standing is allowed for Div 3 & Div 4 clubs. Clubs like ours who already have seating are not allowed to change back though. I think that's the case.
  • Bring back standing
  • [cite]Posted By: jimmymelrose[/cite]I think standing is allowed for Div 3 & Div 4 clubs. Clubs like ours who already have seating are not allowed to change back though. I think that's the case.[/quote]

    Yep, that's my understanding of it. You have two year's 'grace' once you get into the top two divisions before you have to have an all-seater ground (Peterborough are building a new ground now, I think). When Rotherham had to move ground a year or two ago, they had to get an all-seater, because that was the licence they had for Millmoor, because they spent three (?) seasons in what's now the Championship.
    [cite]Posted By: Henry Irving[/cite]to operate the stadium they need a licence and the Football Licensing Authority refuse to even debate the issue. Believe me I tried to engage with the FLA rep on our Safety Advisory Group but he wouldn't listen and refused to even read the Safe Standings Report on safety and standing in Germany.

    If only that was the worst of it... Some of you people should try reading their statistical report. I'm no expert on statistical techniques, but I know dodgy stats when I see them. The sampling is all sorts of biased and the conclusions they draw are often based on assumptions that they make after they see the data. In the report I read a few months ago they in their infinite wisdom just announced that clubs were withholding information from them. The statistics on standing-related injuries had gone down, and injuries blamed on seats and the like had gone up. Sure enough, the FLA knows best, and assumed that the clubs weren't telling the full story and that a big proportion of the 'seats' injuries were from people standing on them and jumping around.

    The bit I love the best is that if I spill a full cup of tea all over your head in the seated section of the Memorial Ground (Bristol Rovers), that counts as yet another injury in grounds with terraces, and furthers the case for all grounds being all-seaters.

    As far as I know, the big problem with bringing fans together is Liverpool, who, understandably have their reservations (not that that's stopped them). Another problem is that if the FLA suddenly changed their mind and said safe standing was OK, that might affect grounds who currently have terraces, and they might be forced to put safe standing terraces in place.

    It's a pity, because some sort of terrace does all groups the world of good. The North Upper isn't the safest, in my opinion (too steep), and knowing where all the standers will be will help the siddahn crowd avoid them. That goes for all other clubs too.
  • [cite]Posted By: jimmymelrose[/cite]I think standing is allowed for Div 3 & Div 4 clubs. Clubs like ours who already have seating are not allowed to change back though. I think that's the case.


    we're in div 3, so if we relocate to horn fair park we can build a ground with safe standing?
  • no, as explained above we've been in the top two divisions so our license is for an all seated stadium.
  • edited March 2010
    So to play devils advocate.

    If we lost The Valley for whatever reason and ended up sharing again say at West Ham. We then get kicked out of Upton Park and are saved when we get a financial investment from Mark Hulyers long lost son (no comments req - its hyperthetical sarcasm) and he wants to build a new ground but can only afford the quote for option 1 - partial seats and partial safe standing rather than an option 2 - all seater. Are you saying that planning permission for option 1 would be refused because we resided in the top 2 tiers previously. the outcome would be that we couldnt build a new ground so would cease to exist. Would there not be a case for restraint of trade or something?

    If we then folded as Charlton Athletic FC and then re-invented the club like Wimbledon calling ourselves AFC Charlton, would we then be able to build option 1 because AFC Charlton, had never played in the top 2 tiers?

    I know its all very far fetched but nothings impossible!
  • As it stands yes, we'd have to find an all seater stadium to share or build.

    yes as we'd be a different club.

    At some point someone will have to challenge the FLA. WIth the help of a friendly local council Liverpool or Everton could submit a design for an end with seats similar to the above arguing that there are fold down seats so it is a seating area not standing.

    The problem then is that the capacity for that end will be limited to 1. the number of actual fold down seats and 2. to the amount of exits.

    The value to clubs of standing areas is that you can get 20/30% more people on a standing area so if you charge the same you make more money.

    But the expectation from many fans would be that a standing area should be cheaper than seating (as was always the case pre-Taylor) so the benefit to clubs is lost.

    Interestingly both Spurs and Liverpool's new stadium will have "ends" ie one big stand behind the goal. They will have seats but they will be, in effect, standing areas. So because the FLA won't budge and won't take the big clubs on we have the worst of things. Expensive seats that people stand up in and which are much less safe than a properly designed standing area as pictured above.

    If you really want to do something then

    1. Join the FSA and get behind the campaign http://www.fsf.org.uk/campaigns/safestanding.php
    2. Lobby your local and national politicians for change
    3. Lobby the FLA
  • [cite]Posted By: bloodnut[/cite]I miss standing so much... the whole hillsborough thing would have happened even if it was seated that day!
    I think it might have been worse.
  • edited March 2010
    [cite]Posted By: Henry Irving[/cite]At some point someone will have to challenge the FLA. WIth the help of a friendly local council Liverpool or Everton could submit a design for an end with seats similar to the above arguing that there are fold down seats so it is a seating area not standing

    Talking of Liverpool council, I believe this was the new rejected Everton stadium. Looks like it would have been the best in the UK
  • they are mental not to ground share, probably why its been rejected cos Pool aren't interested
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