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The Jonjo Shelvey Experiment

edited November 2009 in General Charlton
So what's the general verdict on Shelvey on the left - worth further investigation or a bad idea and not worth perservering with?

Seems to me a spot out wide could be a reasonable way to get Jonjo some game time in a 4-4-2 and in a position where his inexperience and current defensive frailties (which will surely improve with age) are less likely to do us serious damage - IIRC Gerrard played right midfield a lot when he first broke into Liverpool's team. If we're going to do it though it would seem to me he should play right midfield - at least then he's on his natural side if away from his natural position, but would we want to switch Sam to the left with the way he's been playing this season?

Do we have any resonsibility to try and find space for Shelvey at all? The kid's got talent but the midfield has been functioning well without him - does he just need to be made to bide his time and wait for someone's form to drop sufficently for him to get a start and make do with developing his game from substitute cameos for now?

If we don't continue experimenting with Shelvey what do we do about left midfield? Is it time for Wagstaff or Holden to start or have we given up on Racon too soon? How about Basey in front of Youga (once Youga and Richardson are fit)?
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Comments

  • At age 17 I really don`t see an issue with Jonjo having a cameo role this season. Think thats possibly the best way of utilising his talents at the moment.
  • Really bad idea. I'm not sure how he'd been detailed to play, but he was constantly out of position. Whether Parky told him to just keep doing his hard working thing, but generally from the left side of the field, or whether he drifted off course, I don't know, but certainly not as effective as Racon or Sam there. I think the last few games have shown that we can't afford to lose Bailey from the middle, so it's a difficult situation for our most talented player. I don't think with the chasing pack on our heels that we can afford to accomodate anyone (and nor should we be putting the weight of all our expectations on one kid's shoulders).

    It wasn't that long ago that a number of people on here just simply couldn't imagine a radical world in which we wouldn't have the same starting 11 in the same 451 formation. For various reasons things change. Jonjo's chance will come again and he's capable of being the most valuable player in the team, he just needs to be handled right.
  • [cite]Posted By: McLovin[/cite]Really bad idea. I'm not sure how he'd been detailed to play, but he was constantly out of position.

    For the life of me i cant see how you can write such a stupid sentence????? If as you say your not sure how he'd been detailed to play,how could you possibly know if he was ever out of position JESUS CHRIST
  • No worse or better than any of our current options out wide.

    I still feel that he has yet to be played in his favoured centre mid with a partner. Saying that the 2 in there at the mo are doing well.

    I would stick with him out wide as i feel he has the vision to pick out a pass, although he will not go past the full back to often. he still has a big part to play this season and as seen on so many occasions injuries, suspensions, sending offs during games will all give him opportunities to move around.

    Keep with it JJ it will come for the mean time all you can do the best where you are
  • He was no better or worse than Racon when he played on the left but we do have a problem in that whoever plays left midfield seems to be constantly isolated as we nearly always look to pick out Lloyd Sam. Be it Bailey, Semedo, Burton or Llera with his cross field passes, we always look to the right. Only time we really attacked down the left was when Sam switched wings.

    So people can sit here and say Shelvey didn't play well, he didn't do anything etc etc but what is he supposed to do when the ball is 50 yards away on the other flank.
  • There was a bloke in towards the back of the NU constantly having a go at JJ.

    Was very tiresome.


    He's 17 FFS!
  • It was evident at times that he was unfamiliar with the position but he is 17 so hardly a surprise!

    However he played some good passes and helped Basey out too which is easy to overlook.

    I'd give it another go.
  • [cite]Posted By: Chris_from_Sidcup[/cite]we nearly always look to pick out Lloyd Sam.

    Do you think this was exacerbated by Youga being over on the right as well (to begin with at least) - did Basey overlap much?
  • Give him a break, yes i think he should be a bit part player this season for now and if any of the central two get injured or banned can then have a go at trying to win his favoured position.

    As for on the left i think sounded like he did ok but nothing more then expected, but cud be worth for a few games there as was only his first game there! also is an asset to have a passer of his quality in the side so will give our fowards more chances

    and i do think he can beat a player on the wing, however due to pacey fullbacks may have to beat them a few times
  • He actually had a 95% pass rate so not quite as bad as a lot seem to think
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  • How many times was he offside or has he not taken that leaf out of his uncle's book?
  • Let him play there for three or four games and come back for a more measured assesment.

    The lads got a lovely touch and vision and his workrate is as good as any. Use him or lose him I say.
  • Seem to remember him playing a couple of great little balls through to the strikers, one of which was just intercepted or Mooney (I think) would have been in.

    Didn't really get chance to run at the fullback but I certainly wouldn't have a problem with him getting a run in the side at that position.
  • I'd like to see Jonjo played in the centre of midfield, or perhaps best in the attacking CM role, perhaps in the way that Jason Euell was used. Not as an aout and out forward, but someone who can be a playmaker when the ball is played through the centre, or who arrives late into the box when crosses are coming in from either wing.

    At the moment we don't get much coming from the left but do get a lot that is channelled to the right via Sam, I don't think that the preponderance of ball from the right suits Jonjo or that because he tends to lurk in an inside left position that he sees it. Essentially I'd like to see us get the players around Jonjo sorted and settled, especially getting a left wing and go from there. Bear in mind that while he's afantastically talented player that we should be looking to build the side around that he can't do everything and be everywhere at once.
  • Not a great success.I've not seen us or him that much this season.He is unquestionably a talent and is still learning the game as last night showed.His potential needs to be harnessed and i'm not sure if playing in this league with this kind of team/manager is the way to do it. (Puts tin hat on !)
  • There are various ways what is happening to JonJo this season can be interpreted.

    I think there was a feeling at the start of the season by a lot of fans, and probably JJ himself, that by this point of the season he would be THE MAIN MAN, like say Delph was for Leeds last season.

    It hasn't worked out that way, but i do not see that as a bad thing.

    JonJo is not the finished article, quite a way from that, and has very obvious strengths and weaknesses that are probably being highlighted. His strengths are that he has a good first touch, excellent vision and quality to his ball play. His weaknesses are that he lacks a burst of exceleration, a bit of snap to his play, .

    His long-term position is of a centre mid, with a decent, busy defensive foil next to him. Spending time in other positions like he has done over the last 4 months shouldn't be something that frustrates him, but be seen as a good opportunity to get a better understanding of different positions / situations on the pitch.

    Very little comes naturally in football, it has to be worked out all the time, and how you react to setbacks etc is key. The top players are normally that because they worked the hardest to improve.

    This is a long, gruelling season and with our squad things will change with every injury, suspension, drop in form. At present, Bailey and Semedo look our best central pairing on the proviso that Sam is being effective on the wing. JonJo will get his chance in the centre berth at some point, for now he just needs to keep his head, not get too frustrated or put too much pressure on himself, and keep working hard to develop.
  • [cite]Posted By: WSS[/cite]How many times was he offside or has he not taken that leaf out of his uncle's book?

    Quality lol
  • [cite]Posted By: AFKABartram[/cite]There are various ways what is happening to JonJo this season can be interpreted.

    I think there was a feeling at the start of the season by a lot of fans, and probably JJ himself, that by this point of the season he would be THE MAIN MAN, like say Delph was for Leeds last season.

    It hasn't worked out that way, but i do not see that as a bad thing.

    JonJo is not the finished article, quite a way from that, and has very obvious strengths and weaknesses that are probably being highlighted. His strengths are that he has a good first touch, excellent vision and quality to his ball play. His weaknesses are that he lacks a burst of exceleration, a bit of snap to his play, .

    His long-term position is of a centre mid, with a decent, busy defensive foil next to him. Spending time in other positions like he has done over the last 4 months shouldn't be something that frustrates him, but be seen as a good opportunity to get a better understanding of different positions / situations on the pitch.

    Very little comes naturally in football, it has to be worked out all the time, and how you react to setbacks etc is key. The top players are normally that because they worked the hardest to improve.

    This is a long, gruelling season and with our squad things will change with every injury, suspension, drop in form. At present, Bailey and Semedo look our best central pairing on the proviso that Sam is being effective on the wing. JonJo will get his chance in the centre berth at some point, for now he just needs to keep his head, not get too frustrated or put too much pressure on himself, and keep working hard to develop.

    Good post, agree with that. His chance will come and each game, even out of position, is more experience for him.

    I know what you mean about his weaknesses, and he's never going to be the quickest, but with experience, with the right players around him, in time it won't be as much of a problem.
  • We sadly haven't got enough quality to play to his strentghs. His vision and positional play is at least a division higher than we're in at the moment.
    (Does that make any sense?)
    I really believe he would be a far better player if we were in the championship or even higher. He was making runs that none of our players were even aware of at times, and was also playing balls that the same said players couldn't read.
    Please god, we get out of this division and then he could really start to shine.
  • [cite]Posted By: uncle[/cite]
    [cite]Posted By: McLovin[/cite]Really bad idea. I'm not sure how he'd been detailed to play, but he was constantly out of position.

    For the life of me i cant see how you can write such a stupid sentence????? If as you say your not sure how he'd been detailed to play,how could you possibly know if he was ever out of position JESUS CHRIST

    Holy shit!

    OK, just to be really clear, he wasn't operating on the left as much as you'd expect a traditional left sided midfileder, which IMO wasn't good for the team. I even made it clear that I wasn't sure whether this was his fault because he was playing out of position and tended towards his natural place, or whether the manager had given him a free role (which IMO doesn't work with wide players). So just so we don't get anymore hysterics what I was saying is

    Based on the Bristol Rovers game, because Jonjo operatated inside for a lot of the game - we as a team were less effective

    What I wrote didn't warrant your over the top response response, it was an attempt to have a reasoned football debate. I appreciate that it's always a sensitive subject for you, but the meaning was pretty obvious.
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  • thought he started very brightly

    faded a bit after that but it was his close control, run and shot just wide at 2-2 which seemed to give the team some self-belief back and not long afterwards we made it 3-2
  • I sadly agree with many posters above in the fact that JJ was played out of position. His skills are obvious to everyone but the problem is that we are a team not a group of individuals and unless we lose a CB there is no place for him unfortunately.

    What I mean is that we play a 3-1-4-2 format that would suit JJ very well but leaves us exposed at the back if the wingers do not get back and cover. This is a possibility when playing schmucks like Tranmere:

    Richardson Dailly/Sodje Youga

    Semedo/Sodje

    Sam Bailey JJ Racon/Basey/Holden (yes I want to see more of him)

    Burton Mooney/Sodje

    But I fear that the back line will be very exposed indeed!
  • [cite]Posted By: McLovin[/cite]
    [cite]Posted By: uncle[/cite]
    [cite]Posted By: McLovin[/cite]Really bad idea. I'm not sure how he'd been detailed to play, but he was constantly out of position.
    For the life of me i cant see how you can write such a stupid sentence????? If as you say your not sure how he'd been detailed to play,how could you possibly know if he was ever out of position JESUS CHRIST

    Holy shit!

    OK, just to be really clear, he wasn't operating on the left as much as you'd expect a traditional left sided midfileder, which IMO wasn't good for the team. I even made it clear that I wasn't sure whether this was his fault because he was playing out of position and tended towards his natural place, or whether the manager had given him a free role (which IMO doesn't work with wide players). So just so we don't get anymore hysterics what I was saying is

    Based on the Bristol Rovers game, because Jonjo operatated inside for a lot of the game - we as a team were less effective

    What I wrote didn't warrant your over the top response response, it was an attempt to have a reasoned football debate. I appreciate that it's always a sensitive subject for you, but the meaning was pretty obvious.

    Its not a sensitive subject for me and my reaction wasn't over the top,you wrote something that you clearly had no facts on. Are you telling me that you know where he was told to play and what to do??? No i guess you wasn't. So if Parky had told him to keep cutting in all the time would HE have been out of position??? No i think not, he might not have stayed hugging the touchline like some would want but you cant say HE was out of position if you dont know what was said to him. Wether he was played out of position or asked to do something that isn't quite the norm then that is the mangers chioce. It doesn't make HIM out of position does it?
  • I think AFKA's post is top drawer on this, especially this paragraph
    [cite]Posted By: AFKABartram[/cite]His long-term position is of a centre mid, with a decent, busy defensive foil next to him. Spending time in other positions like he has done over the last 4 months shouldn't be something that frustrates him, but be seen as a good opportunity to get a better understanding of different positions / situations on the pitch.
  • edited November 2009
    [cite]Posted By: creepyaddick[/cite]We sadly haven't got enough quality to play to his strentghs. His vision and positional play is at least a division higher than we're in at the moment.
    (Does that make any sense?)
    I really believe he would be a far better player if we were in the championship or even higher. He was making runs that none of our players were even aware of at times, and was also playing balls that the same said players couldn't read.
    Please god, we get out of this division and then he could really start to shine.
    I know what you mean, they're just things he won't be able to show until he's playing with better players. That's not a criticism of the players we have, it applies to some of them as well (Sam has looked a decent player in all three divisions). Hopefully it's with us over the next few years. He has plenty of time to show it.
  • I thought he played quite well and he did, to me, seem as if he was sticking to his instructions. He wasn't charging around at full speed all over the pitch as he has done in his "free role", he seemed more reserved and kept. If played there over the next few games I think he'll improve in confidence and match sharpness and get among the goals.

    He showed tremendous technique to sort his feet out before shooting against Mooney and if that had gone in then I think many opinions on his performance would have been different.
  • Was not JJs best performance last night but its clear the left is not his best or preferred position. He still did ok and contributed but when in the second half all Rovers play seemed to come down the right, if it had been down the left they may have had more success as Shelveys positioning was not always the best. Saying that at 17, it is still quite amazing he can still look a class apart with some of his touches and play, even when he is in his 3rd or maybe even 4th choice position. Personally I would bring Racon back on Tuesday at Brighton. Shelveys time will come again, especially if and when we lose Sodje and Mooney to their parent clubs and Burton needs some support.
  • He seemed to keep straying infield but i dont think he played bad there but we didnt have much happeing on the left but hes only going to improve with time
  • [cite]Posted By: uncle[/cite]
    Its not a sensitive subject for me and my reaction wasn't over the top,you wrote something that you clearly had no facts on. Are you telling me that you know where he was told to play and what to do??? No i guess you wasn't. So if Parky had told him to keep cutting in all the time would HE have been out of position??? No i think not, he might not have stayed hugging the touchline like some would want but you cant say HE was out of position if you dont know what was said to him. Wether he was played out of position or asked to do something that isn't quite the norm then that is the mangers chioce. It doesn't make HIM out of position does it?

    Of course it was HIM out of position, as he is the 'object' that is moving around the pitch - rather like a chess piece is moved by a chess player, it may not necessarily be of his choice but it's still HIM who is in the 'wrong' place - it may not be his fault, but it is HIM.
  • Based on last night Shelvey is either playing out of position by his choice or Parkinsons. He ain`t a left winger, far too slow. He is a big strong lad with talent, a good left foot, and still only a boy. IMHO he could well make a very good centre half in the Rufus mould. Last night he drifted in to mid field to no value and seemed lost in the set up. The `saddos` in the Lwr West were not in fact attacking JJ, simply asking Parky to get a grip of the impending shambles after half time. Which to be fair he did. Has he ever played centre half, perhaps his uncle could tell us.

    John
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