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Is there a plan C? (3-5-2)

edited November 2009 in General Charlton
If plan A was 4-5-1 and plan B was 4-4-2, is there a plan C?

Given that we have three central defenders of broadly equal ability, each of whom likes to get forward, should we try to accommodate all three? And, given that we have five gifted midfielders each of whom would be an asset to any side in the league and, whilst playing all five we went on a recording-breaking run, should we try to accommodate all five? And, given that many - at least on here - would prefer us to play with two strikers, Jonjo Shelvey would be able to create more chances with two strikers to pick out (instead of one) and we have a number of strokers who seem to play more offensively when partnered, should we try to accommodate two strikers?

So, would 3-5-2 present a suitable third way for Charlton?

Goalkeeper

Dailly
Sodje
Llera

-- Sam -- Racon --- Shelvey --- Semedo --- Bailey --

Burton
Mooney

There's width, pace, nous and skill in that XI. And we'd certainly be difficult to defend set pieces against, with combinations of Llera, Sodje and Dailly up for corners and Llera, Bailey and Shelvey taking set pieces.

Comments

  • ooooooohhhhhh...... I quite like that....
  • 3-5-2 just doesn't work anymore. The above would force Sam and Bailey to play at full back and on the wing. Given that Sam struggles to last 90 minutes at right wing with a full back behind him, we would get absolutely hammered down our right flank by this formation.
  • Like it could try a 5-3-2.

    Goalkeeper

    ---Richardson----Dailly
    Sodje
    Llera
    Youga

    Sam
    Bailey--
    Racon

    Burton
    Mooney
  • The Two wide players in midfield have to be phenomenally fit for a 3-5-2 to work. Bailey is not a wide player for a start. Plus the system ommits Both Youga & Richardson who have both been excellent this season. It's not a system I would start in any one game, but if it's just a tactical change for 30 mins or so it would be workable with the right players, just not sure that we have them.
  • in a word no....we would completely all at sea trying to play that system, the 3 centre backs would get in each others way and the 2 'wide' players would end up playing full back.

    in my opinion that's more negative than the 4-4-1-1 we were playing.
  • edited November 2009
    Interesting ...... but it strikes me as a side where we put Jonjo's name on the team sheet first - and then juggle everybody round to make them fit around him.

    The last 2 matches have shown we should not move Bailey from CM, he's reborn there and on fire.
    Why would we want to take that from the side?

    Likewise Semedo, really solid in that gatekeeper/anchorman role in front of the defence and working very well centrally.

    Then there's a question of lack of pace at the back. Ok Sam Sodje's quick enough but you wouldn't want to expose Llera or a 36 year old Daily to a speedy winger exploiting the space behind the wingbacks.

    Sam is capable of causing mayhem in dangerous areas further forward, why reduce his effectiveness by saddling him with extra defensive duties as a wingback. And if Bailey was put back to LM, not only do you lose his impact centrally but there's no pace and thrust going forward on that left side.

    Youga's has been playing out of his skin covering both FB positions, but he does have the pace and thrust getting down the LM side - and it would be like shooting ourselves in the foot to leave him out of the side completely.

    We've got a side that's gelled very well as a team in the last couple of games, showing terrific spirit and application.
    Why pull it apart unnecessarily to accomodate Jonjo? His time will come.
  • edited November 2009
    [cite]Posted By: covered end junior[/cite]Like it could try a 5-3-2.

    Goalkeeper

    ---Richardson----Dailly
    Sodje
    Llera
    Youga

    Sam
    Bailey--
    Racon

    Burton
    Mooney

    Your's is a much more practical use of players, CEjnr. Especially with our 2 full backs who like to bomb down the wing.
    Then give Sam more of a free role when attacking, but he'd still need to cover Richardson.

    We'd also need to play a high line at the back, otherwise the midfield could easily get isolated from the front 2.
    But personally, I'd rather the extra man in midfield, especially away matches.

    Sorry, Chizz!
  • Agree with Oggy, 5-3-2 won't really work either. You end up with no width unless you expect Richardson and Youga to perform the dual role that Bailey/Sam would be expected to perform in a 3-5-2. In which case you end up with exactly the same problem.
  • The interesting thing ...... at Yeovil in the 2nd half with 10 men, what appeared to be a 2-5-2 worked very effectively - but it worked because we played a high defensive line as gale force winds made it very difficult for Yeovil to get out of their own half.

    After Sam Sodje was sent off, under the same conditions if we'd played that formation in the 1st half we could have been slaughtered.......!

    As Ketman pointed out, it has it's uses as a tactical change during specific match conditions.
    So definitely horses for courses.

  • Goalkeeper

    Dailly

    Sodje
    Llera

    Richardson ---- Shelvey --- Semedo --- Bailey ---Youga----

    Burton
    Mooney

    Dailly sweeping would stop any confusion with 3 centerbacks and his reading of the game makes this position ideal for him. Richardson and Youga will both work harder than most in the challenging wide role,both can defend and certainly dont mind getting forward. Bailey,Semedo and Shelvey would give everything a central midfield needs,tackling,vision,hard work and support for the front two. I wouldn't play it every week but i'd like to see how it worked on the pitch
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  • Isn't Plan C to avoid having any more plans?
  • [cite]Posted By: thai malaysia addick[/cite]Isn't Plan C to avoid having any more plans?

    No thats plan D
  • I like Uncle's team but I would put Elliot in goal : - )

    Also on Racon, maybe not had his best games recently but others have had bad spells and come good again such as Bailey so not going to write him off or start imagining that "his heart's not in it". Maybe two storms don't suit his style and maybe playing wider isn't him either. Still it's the team that matters and if that means sacrificing him at present then so be it.
  • I agree with uncle sounds like a good team, but doubt that we would do that tbh

    the full backs would have to work hard, but are both very capable defending & going forward. only problem is have no-one to back them up unless you say sodje covers on the right and llera on the left. would be interesting one though and definately worth a shout!
  • But with that team what happens if the winger gets past, say Richardson, Sodje would have to run over to cover right back, Llera and Dailly mark their forwards and Youga would have to bomb it back to mark their right winger. Then you'd still expect Youga to contribute to attacking as well. Given that if one of our wingers/wing backs (whatever you want to call them) gets bypassed in this formation you end up needing 4 at the back to cover their possible attacking players, you might as well play 4 at the back to begin with then none of the players get particularly overburdened.
  • You are assuming every otherplayer in the team is just watching this happen.... Which i really hope wouldn't happen in any formation we played. The idea of a sweeper that can read the game is if he see's winger about to pass richardson he comes to sweep. Failing that you have 3 central midfield players with good engines that can help cover any scenario such as that. What this system gives you is a great attacking option,also with our central midfield and 2 forwards i think you might find opposition wingers will be reluctant to attack through fear of what we can do when we break. Yes you could play 442 every game but how many of the top teams ever really do that ? We are a top team in this league so making the opposition think and making them wary to attack isn't a bad thing
  • [cite]Posted By: uncle[/cite]You are assuming every otherplayer in the team is just watching this happen.... Which i really hope wouldn't happen in any formation we played. The idea of a sweeper that can read the game is if he see's winger about to pass richardson he comes to sweep. Failing that you have 3 central midfield players with good engines that can help cover any scenario such as that. What this system gives you is a great attacking option,also with our central midfield and 2 forwards i think you might find opposition wingers will be reluctant to attack through fear of what we can do when we break. Yes you could play 442 every game but how many of the top teams ever really do that ? We are a top team in this league so making the opposition think and making them wary to attack isn't a bad thing

    I agree with you that we have to be versatile and play the system which will give us the best chance of winning depending on how the opposition are lined up. However, I would counter your point about the top teams not playing 442 every game by saying that I don't believe ANY of the top sides in Europe play 3-5-2. It is dying out due to the physical demands you place on the wingers/wing backs.
  • 3-5-2 doesn't work or 5-3-2 - you give the wing backs too much work to do and too much space to cover.
  • edited November 2009
    Uncle's team is a great team going forward - but I can't see how we could defend so well .......

    Even assuming the discipline of one wingback staying back when we attack providing 4 defenders, a quick long ball over the top by opponents could leave acres of uncovered space behind our attacking wingback especially with Dailly sitting behind Sodje and Lera - a real soft underbelly to the defence begging to be exploited.

    And not a prayer of holding a defensive line - or getting an offside flag.

    We'd see plenty of goals both ends, though - each game could be a 4-1 win or a 3-2 loss, ........... a manager's nightmare perhaps, but a treat for the fans - if your pacemaker doesn't give out first!
  • I was all for 3-5-2 last season when it could have crammed in all the players who put in effort to their game. This season I'm not so sure it works, for one Mouta's not here and Holland's not here to organise or at least be aware of how the midfield should shape up.

    I can't see the reasoning of changing a squad around when we are essentially successful. If we were losing week in week out and it got our best players into the team then it's worth the risk. A judicious use of 4-4-2 and 4-5-1 atm should easily see us competing for promotion places; one of the great mistakes by Parky would be to neglect playing 4-5-1 in many away matches just because a strike pairing does well in a few home games. As much as Richardson and Youga are good going forward they are not directly leading to assists, Mouta did and Sam is the main assist outlet. It seems folly to me to try 3-5-2 now.
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  • Is that a no then, Colin ....?

    ;o)
  • Have to agree with everyone that doesn't think 3-5-2 would work. There are reasons clubs barely use it any more, and we don't have the wide players to play it. Even if any of them are fit enough, it's a lot of work for any player to handle.
  • For 3-5-2 you also need 3 very mobile and quick centre backs.

    That takes Dailly and Llera out of the equation.


    You might have got away with it in the Third Division - if we could play 3 centre backs like Fortune, Magic and Herman.

    ;o)
  • [cite]Posted By: Chizz[/cite]If plan A was 4-5-1 and plan B was 4-4-2, is there a plan C?

    Given that we have three central defenders of broadly equal ability, each of whom likes to get forward, should we try to accommodate all three? And, given that we have five gifted midfielders each of whom would be an asset to any side in the league and, whilst playing all five we went on a recording-breaking run, should we try to accommodate all five? And, given that many - at least on here - would prefer us to play with two strikers, Jonjo Shelvey would be able to create more chances with two strikers to pick out (instead of one) and we have a number of strokers who seem to play more offensively when partnered, should we try to accommodate two strikers?

    So, would 3-5-2 present a suitable third way for Charlton?

    Goalkeeper

    Dailly
    Sodje
    Llera

    -- Sam -- Racon --- Shelvey --- Semedo --- Bailey --

    Burton
    Mooney

    There's width, pace, nous and skill in that XI. And we'd certainly be difficult to defend set pieces against, with combinations of Llera, Sodje and Dailly up for corners and Llera, Bailey and Shelvey taking set pieces.


    That team would get ripped apart away from home but at home chasing a game in the last 20 minutes it wouldn't be so bad.
    And yes we'd be difficult to defend set pieces against but who would stay back apart from Semedo?
  • The keeper ....?

    ;o)
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