You were the one Henry, with respect, who has referred to Jimenez as a wheeler/dealer and a chancer. Isn’t that an assumption in itself? Do we know enough about him to say either way?
And I stated twice that that was my opinion of him not a definitive statement of fact.
What is a FACT, and not rumour or speculation, is that Tony Jimenez resigned from his post at Newcastle United the day before the news was published on Charlton’s Official Site that Zabeel had made an indicative offer.
Within days of this, his name was beginning to be linked to us in newspaper reports.
This is all hard fact.
True but that does not prove in anyway that his resignation was linked to the Charlton Zebeel deal or that he was involved in the Charlton/Zebeel deal in any way.
In the media frenzy to get a new angle on the story the press were running no end of stories about the deal which they then contradicted themselves the next day. One of those "flyers" was the Jimenez link. Others were that they were buying Everton, West Ham and Liverpool. They weren't true so why should we put any faith in the Jimenez link.
His resignation from NCFC the day before could just have been coincidence. There is certainly no substantial evidence to say that he was ever involved. I spoke to various directors the day that story broke and none of them mentioned TJ. That doesn't prove anything either way but you said "As for Tony Jimenez, well, as the man who helped broker the Zabeel deal, I guess he deserves a chance does he not?". That was an conclusion based on unproven speculation
But as you say the real issue is what do any prospective (and the current ) owners plan for OUR Club. If and when they go public we as fans need to question them and demand clear explanations of their resources and intentions.
[cite]Posted By: AFKABartram[/cite]Back to the original post, which i read to be a very well constructed devils advocate piece Sailor. One i'm surprised you would write to be honest as i have always lumbered you in the moral highground category. In response, these are the key points why i would be especially uneasy if there was any truth to these rumours.
1. Dennis Wise was a football guy who by his own choice, took himself away from the cut of the game to dabble in a field he has no experience in, and is not suited to his skillset. Good player granted, an encouraging starting record as a coach, he chose to walk away from that and instead indulge himself in a world of suits, negotiation and uneasy backscratching. As the evidence out of the Newcastle case has shown, he has come out of this with no credit, nor an endorsement for a director of football role. That role would be undermining to our manager, and we already have a manager i'm currently happy with, so he brings nothing to the table whatsoever other than the possibility of a top-heavy structure, and an additional unwanted figure.
2. There are thousands of people better qualified and better suited to act as middle men, if there is a need for them at all. Wise has no credibility or experience for a fixer role, and Jimenez, who i will admit i do not no much of, rightly or wrongly strikes me as a chancer who has had a very quick elevation. Neither fill me with confidence or integrity, and smacks completely of self-interest. If the truth they are acting as middle men to some Middle East group, then i would severely question the integrity of that group who would choose to deal with this pair, when there are so many other more credible people and companies they could go through if they so wished.
3. I of course understand the need for fresh finance for our football club, but i remain extremely concerned about the way football in this country is becoming increasing governed by overseas groups, particularly what appears to be a growing emphasis in the Middle East and Asia. We are now getting to the stage where the individuals behind overseas funds owning clubs do not even have to be publicly disclosed, and it is a potentially dangerous route to go down as we have not the faintest idea of the true aims of these individuals, or in a growing trend, even their identity.
I tried to argue my points not based sorely on a 'i don't like them and don't trust them' point, but i won't disguise that is my overriding factor. Charlton will never have the best team or the biggest crowds, but i still see my club as being better than deserving the input of someone like Dennis Wise.
AFKA, you make some very good points and I agree with a large number of them but I can only really deal with a few things.
You are right to describe my piece as an exercise in Devil’s Advocacy but there is a key point in that.
Dennis Wise has built up a reputation amongst football fans for all the wrong reasons and it is easy to jump all over them when his name is mentioned with regard to jobs or roles at clubs.
But, at this point in time, we don’t know who or what lies behind this consortium or approach. Wise may be many things but he strikes me as a fairly savvy individual with regard to assessing the potential of English football clubs.
So if he and Jimenez and their mystery backers think Charlton is the type of club that can consolidate their investment and has the potential for growth does that then merit the level of vitriol we have already seen on here from some quarters?
You don’t like Wise and you have been honest enough to say it is playing a major part in your thought processes.
I could easily say the same thing but until I know more about his plans and who is behind him I will prefer to keep an open mind as I think such a position might, just might, be in the better interests of the football club we both love.
I will say I don’t think my position on any moral high ground is compromised as yet – if I actually had one and it is kind of you to say so!
I think he has done some very regrettable things and it is likely he will never shake them off and his recent conduct at Newcastle was another big low point and of course all of this must play a part in our assessment of his group's bid – if it exists.
But if, hypothetically, a well-heeled Middle East investment vehicle emerged as his backer, with real concrete proof of its financial capabilities then it would be quite difficult to say Wise and his group are just a bunch of dodgy chancers.
If he or Jimenez recognises that CAFC has potential then that is actually quite perceptive isn’t it?
However, the proof is in the pudding and if nothing tangible emerges or a shady Al Fahim type figure appears (and believe me his credentials were very easy to decipher a long while ago) then I’ll step up and say that, sadly, this looks a bit worrying and given Dennis’ unfortunate past and the fact we know little about TJ, I reckon we should pass.
But we aren’t there yet and my view is I’ll keep an open mind on someone who might, quite possibly, be part of an investment team that can really help our club to kick on. I think that is a pretty sensible and respectable position to take at this juncture.
As I said in my first post, this is a very tough call but, whilst I know all about Dennis Wise’s past successes and failures, I’ll see what else emerges, if it does, before I reject or accept this potential bid.
[cite]Posted By: AFKABartram[/cite]ok sailor, you've won me over. i'll keep an open mind on the spiteful, loathesome, unqualified shady pr**k
:-)
Don't hold back AFKA, say what you mean.
I'm trying hard to picture Wise and Jimenez as joyful troubadours that roam the Middle East finding benevolent and rich sheiks who are willing to bale out poor little clubs in SE London whilst refusing again and again to take any payment for themselves.
[cite]Posted By: PragueAddick[/cite]good thread, well started, Sailor. But surely the best way to take a reasoned view on these guys is toask NewcastleSomebody here did the same with Brum fnas re Sullivan and Gold and we learnt quite a lot, before the thread was pulled. Of course there is a lot of hot air around SJP and we will have to be careful to sort out hot air from real informed opinion, but its better than us just arguing with each other based on zero knowledge.
I started last night and found that there are two long standing fanzines, only one of which, True Faith, has a web presence. Hereis the editor's view on the outcome of the court case. Very negative on Jimenez and Wise. That said, I don't get the impression he is as close to things in their club as VOTV was. But there's a starter.
Also I see that Newcastle fans are also just in the process of starting up aSupporters TrustCould be good to make contact with them.
Richard, thank you for your kind words.
I think your research regarding Gold/Sullivan is highly merited as they owned BCFC for a number of years and did enjoy some significant success in getting them (eventually) up the league. So I think we need to take note of their fans’ concerns – or at least some of them.
But I’m not sure what point there is in speaking to embittered Newcastle fans? We know Ashley, Wise and Jimenez were all rather distastefully labelled the Cockney Mafia by their fans and so their popularity is in the toilet.
I’m sure it deserves to be there too as Newcastle has been a total joke in recent times and no-one is claiming Wise was a success in his role. He wasn’t, he lost his job and made some very questionable decisions.
The only point in asking Newcastle fans is if we want to feel content in our repugnance of all things Wise and Jimenez.
If you asked Chelsea or Leeds fans about Wise, you might get a different answer.
I think his decision to leave Leeds probably left a sour taste with their fans as their promotion push foundered as a result. But I don’t think he can be blamed for taking the job.
If Phil Parkinson was asked to take on a swanky, highly paid Director of Football role at a big Premier League club, say Aston Villa or Spurs, does anyone think he’d still be with us at the Priestfield on Saturday? I’m not so sure.
The Newcastle debacle has to remain at the forefront of our minds if Wise’s consortium does make official approaches.
But as I’ve said elsewhere we then need to assess the entire picture as best we can.
[cite]Posted By: Henry Irving[/cite]I'm trying hard to picture Wise and Jimenez as joyful troubadours that roam the Middle East finding benevolent and rich sheiks who are willing to bale out poor little clubs in SE London whilst refusing again and again to take any payment for themselves.
Sorry to disillusion you, Henry, but I don't think it quite works like that.
You know, I never took you for the naive sort. ;-)
Wasnt me who spoke to the Brum fans, Sailor. But I learnt quite a lot as a result, thanks to whoever it was.
The point in asking Newcastle fans is to find out exactly what role Wise and Jimenez have played, nothing more, nothing less. We will have to filter out the anti-Cockney rhetoric for sure. But you have got an entire court case to be going on with for starters, and it doesnt get more factual than that.
[cite]Posted By: PragueAddick[/cite]Wasnt me who spoke to the Brum fans, Sailor. But I learnt quite a lot as a result, thanks to whoever it was.
The point in asking Newcastle fans is to find out exactly what role Wise and Jimenez have played, nothing more, nothing less. We will have to filter out the anti-Cockney rhetoric for sure. But you have got an entire court case to be going on with for starters, and it doesnt get more factual than that.
I take your point but I think we all know that Wise made, with the agreement and backing of his boss, Mike Ashley, some highly questionable decisions which undermined Kevin Keegan's authority.
That's why KK won his court case and as I've said it is a big shadow, among others, over Wise's head.
But I'm all for information and making facts known.
Court documents are one thing but the views of articulate, albeit aggrieved, Newcastle fans are quite another and I'm not sure if anything unique will emerge, or it does, how reliable it will be.
Ask Charlton fans about Alan Pardew and what will they say?
Dennis Wise comes with baggage, he'd probably admit it himself, and, to that end, he and his consortium will inevitably have to display their credentials quite clearly if they ever want to break through the wall of suspicion that exists.
I just want to see what is on offer and from whom before I decide about building any walls.
The walls were already in place though, we didn't build them. Fair enough to try and keep an open mind, but it is difficult. Sir Bobby wasn't someone who liked to critiscise people, but he said ;
After the death of Sir Bobby Robson, The Sun's Bob Harris wrote how Robson told him: "My biggest disappointment was Dennis Wise, a director of football who was hardly seen at the ground, and who brought in players who were neither suitable, nor right, for Newcastle United. I forgive most people, but I am not sure I can forgive Wise for what he did to my club.”
and -
'But then they threw a spanner in the works by appointing Dennis Wise and he operates from London. The mistake was bringing people in who aren't attuned to the club and who worked at the opposite end of the country. And whether Dennis has got the skill and expertise and experience in that field is very doubtful.
.........................
It's nigh on impossible to disregard these comments from someone who I very much respected. I suppose it's wait and see time, yet again.
[cite]Posted By: McLovin[/cite]I'd not play cards with him. Or drive him around London. Or let him in my garden if I was filming a children's TV show out there, the next day.
You talking about Wise, Pardew or - let me guess - both of them?
[cite]Posted By: stilladdicted[/cite]The walls were already in place though, we didn't build them. Fair enough to try and keep an open mind, but it is difficult. Sir Bobby wasn't someone who liked to critiscise people, but he said ;
After the death of Sir Bobby Robson, The Sun's Bob Harris wrote how Robson told him: "My biggest disappointment was Dennis Wise, a director of football who was hardly seen at the ground, and who brought in players who were neither suitable, nor right, for Newcastle United. I forgive most people, but I am not sure I can forgive Wise for what he did to my club.”
and -
'But then they threw a spanner in the works by appointing Dennis Wise and he operates from London. The mistake was bringing people in who aren't attuned to the club and who worked at the opposite end of the country. And whether Dennis has got the skill and expertise and experience in that field is very doubtful.
.........................
It's nigh on impossible to disregard these comments from someone who I very much respected. I suppose it's wait and see time, yet again.
To be honest this obsession that Geordies have that their club is in some way different to other clubs and indeed businesses, is a fair chunk of the reason that they are where they are. They're like those weird shop keepers in the League of Gentlemen horrified about the encroachment by non-locally. It's nice that Bobby continued to think like a fan (particularly after the club and a fair chunk of it's ever-so-knowing "fans" hounded him out of his last job in football), but I don't think it really offers any insights into the Wise issue. As has been stated Wise brought in Bassong sold at a massive profit a season later but Bobby (well actually a Sun journo recounting something Bobby told him - but sure they'd never fib to make a point) takes the view that Wise "brought in players who were neither suitable, nor right". I'm not saying every player he had a hand in signing was a world-beater, but it's a pretty unfair judgement in the light of the facts. Why even Bobby made some bad decisions - the crocked Dyer and hopeless Cort (for £7M!) spring straight to mind.
If you look at the two quotes the thing that comes over is that the main objection to Wise is the fact that he was from London and not seen in Newcastle enough, banging on about how great it is.
[cite]Posted By: McLovin[/cite]I'd not play cards with him. Or drive him around London. Or let him in my garden if I was filming a children's TV show out there, the next day.
You talking about Wise, Pardew or - let me guess - both of them?
While they all apply to Pards, the comment was about Wise due to his previous in each of these sectors.
Having read a few articles about Dubai in the last year, I think its highly unlikely that Zabeel have any interest now in Football, or indeed any other business from Dubai. Funding is far more likley to be found in the Oil rich states and Dubai, is no longer in that category. We can debate this subject until the cows come home, but what we say here will not make any difference to those that make the decisions, so its all little more than posturing and hot air.
[cite]Posted By: McLovin[/cite]I'd not play cards with him. Or drive him around London. Or let him in my garden if I was filming a children's TV show out there, the next day.
You talking about Wise, Pardew or - let me guess - both of them?
While they all apply to Pards, the comment was about Wise due to his previous in each of these sectors.
Oddly enough I was told some time ago by someone who knows him well that Wise is one of the nicest fella's going............until he's had a drink. Don't know the full truth of that or otherwise but what is known is that his reputation preceeds him to the extent that I would be very uncomfortable having him as a representative of my club.
Interesting thread with some good points made by all but my feeling is still that if I we're looking to get involved with a club with an excellent reputation and deep roots in the community I wouldn't ask Dennis to go looking for it for me.
Dear Henry, in reference to your point in post #22.... You are quite right I should have said "when its on the OS- I will believe it", I stand corrected! ;o)
Comments
And I stated twice that that was my opinion of him not a definitive statement of fact.
What is a FACT, and not rumour or speculation, is that Tony Jimenez resigned from his post at Newcastle United the day before the news was published on Charlton’s Official Site that Zabeel had made an indicative offer.
Within days of this, his name was beginning to be linked to us in newspaper reports.
This is all hard fact.
True but that does not prove in anyway that his resignation was linked to the Charlton Zebeel deal or that he was involved in the Charlton/Zebeel deal in any way.
In the media frenzy to get a new angle on the story the press were running no end of stories about the deal which they then contradicted themselves the next day. One of those "flyers" was the Jimenez link. Others were that they were buying Everton, West Ham and Liverpool. They weren't true so why should we put any faith in the Jimenez link.
His resignation from NCFC the day before could just have been coincidence. There is certainly no substantial evidence to say that he was ever involved. I spoke to various directors the day that story broke and none of them mentioned TJ. That doesn't prove anything either way but you said "As for Tony Jimenez, well, as the man who helped broker the Zabeel deal, I guess he deserves a chance does he not?". That was an conclusion based on unproven speculation
But as you say the real issue is what do any prospective (and the current ) owners plan for OUR Club. If and when they go public we as fans need to question them and demand clear explanations of their resources and intentions.
Good point. Spot on as ever.
AFKA, you make some very good points and I agree with a large number of them but I can only really deal with a few things.
You are right to describe my piece as an exercise in Devil’s Advocacy but there is a key point in that.
Dennis Wise has built up a reputation amongst football fans for all the wrong reasons and it is easy to jump all over them when his name is mentioned with regard to jobs or roles at clubs.
But, at this point in time, we don’t know who or what lies behind this consortium or approach. Wise may be many things but he strikes me as a fairly savvy individual with regard to assessing the potential of English football clubs.
So if he and Jimenez and their mystery backers think Charlton is the type of club that can consolidate their investment and has the potential for growth does that then merit the level of vitriol we have already seen on here from some quarters?
You don’t like Wise and you have been honest enough to say it is playing a major part in your thought processes.
I could easily say the same thing but until I know more about his plans and who is behind him I will prefer to keep an open mind as I think such a position might, just might, be in the better interests of the football club we both love.
I will say I don’t think my position on any moral high ground is compromised as yet – if I actually had one and it is kind of you to say so!
I think he has done some very regrettable things and it is likely he will never shake them off and his recent conduct at Newcastle was another big low point and of course all of this must play a part in our assessment of his group's bid – if it exists.
But if, hypothetically, a well-heeled Middle East investment vehicle emerged as his backer, with real concrete proof of its financial capabilities then it would be quite difficult to say Wise and his group are just a bunch of dodgy chancers.
If he or Jimenez recognises that CAFC has potential then that is actually quite perceptive isn’t it?
However, the proof is in the pudding and if nothing tangible emerges or a shady Al Fahim type figure appears (and believe me his credentials were very easy to decipher a long while ago) then I’ll step up and say that, sadly, this looks a bit worrying and given Dennis’ unfortunate past and the fact we know little about TJ, I reckon we should pass.
But we aren’t there yet and my view is I’ll keep an open mind on someone who might, quite possibly, be part of an investment team that can really help our club to kick on. I think that is a pretty sensible and respectable position to take at this juncture.
As I said in my first post, this is a very tough call but, whilst I know all about Dennis Wise’s past successes and failures, I’ll see what else emerges, if it does, before I reject or accept this potential bid.
:-)
Don't hold back AFKA, say what you mean.
I'm trying hard to picture Wise and Jimenez as joyful troubadours that roam the Middle East finding benevolent and rich sheiks who are willing to bale out poor little clubs in SE London whilst refusing again and again to take any payment for themselves.
No, not working : - )
Richard, thank you for your kind words.
I think your research regarding Gold/Sullivan is highly merited as they owned BCFC for a number of years and did enjoy some significant success in getting them (eventually) up the league. So I think we need to take note of their fans’ concerns – or at least some of them.
But I’m not sure what point there is in speaking to embittered Newcastle fans? We know Ashley, Wise and Jimenez were all rather distastefully labelled the Cockney Mafia by their fans and so their popularity is in the toilet.
I’m sure it deserves to be there too as Newcastle has been a total joke in recent times and no-one is claiming Wise was a success in his role. He wasn’t, he lost his job and made some very questionable decisions.
The only point in asking Newcastle fans is if we want to feel content in our repugnance of all things Wise and Jimenez.
If you asked Chelsea or Leeds fans about Wise, you might get a different answer.
I think his decision to leave Leeds probably left a sour taste with their fans as their promotion push foundered as a result. But I don’t think he can be blamed for taking the job.
If Phil Parkinson was asked to take on a swanky, highly paid Director of Football role at a big Premier League club, say Aston Villa or Spurs, does anyone think he’d still be with us at the Priestfield on Saturday? I’m not so sure.
The Newcastle debacle has to remain at the forefront of our minds if Wise’s consortium does make official approaches.
But as I’ve said elsewhere we then need to assess the entire picture as best we can.
Sorry to disillusion you, Henry, but I don't think it quite works like that.
You know, I never took you for the naive sort. ;-)
The point in asking Newcastle fans is to find out exactly what role Wise and Jimenez have played, nothing more, nothing less. We will have to filter out the anti-Cockney rhetoric for sure. But you have got an entire court case to be going on with for starters, and it doesnt get more factual than that.
I take your point but I think we all know that Wise made, with the agreement and backing of his boss, Mike Ashley, some highly questionable decisions which undermined Kevin Keegan's authority.
That's why KK won his court case and as I've said it is a big shadow, among others, over Wise's head.
But I'm all for information and making facts known.
Court documents are one thing but the views of articulate, albeit aggrieved, Newcastle fans are quite another and I'm not sure if anything unique will emerge, or it does, how reliable it will be.
Ask Charlton fans about Alan Pardew and what will they say?
Dennis Wise comes with baggage, he'd probably admit it himself, and, to that end, he and his consortium will inevitably have to display their credentials quite clearly if they ever want to break through the wall of suspicion that exists.
I just want to see what is on offer and from whom before I decide about building any walls.
FACT
After the death of Sir Bobby Robson, The Sun's Bob Harris wrote how Robson told him: "My biggest disappointment was Dennis Wise, a director of football who was hardly seen at the ground, and who brought in players who were neither suitable, nor right, for Newcastle United. I forgive most people, but I am not sure I can forgive Wise for what he did to my club.”
and -
'But then they threw a spanner in the works by appointing Dennis Wise and he operates from London. The mistake was bringing people in who aren't attuned to the club and who worked at the opposite end of the country. And whether Dennis has got the skill and expertise and experience in that field is very doubtful.
.........................
It's nigh on impossible to disregard these comments from someone who I very much respected. I suppose it's wait and see time, yet again.
We'd spill the beans about what a useless w**ker he is. The truth will out.
You talking about Wise, Pardew or - let me guess - both of them?
If you look at the two quotes the thing that comes over is that the main objection to Wise is the fact that he was from London and not seen in Newcastle enough, banging on about how great it is.
Oddly enough I was told some time ago by someone who knows him well that Wise is one of the nicest fella's going............until he's had a drink. Don't know the full truth of that or otherwise but what is known is that his reputation preceeds him to the extent that I would be very uncomfortable having him as a representative of my club.
Interesting thread with some good points made by all but my feeling is still that if I we're looking to get involved with a club with an excellent reputation and deep roots in the community I wouldn't ask Dennis to go looking for it for me.
Might well be needed and saves starting a new thread which sometimes gums up the works!
What do we all think now I wonder?