First well done to the board members for putting up this extra £5.5 million, for men of their wealth this is a large commitment and brave of them. But and this does raise a but! What does it say about the running costs of the club and long term sustainability in the lower leagues. If I understand things correctly then in the last 4 months the folowing large cash injections have occured or are about to. First £1.5 million for the training ground but which has now been converted into a loan, a further £5.5 million in loans and from player transactions about £2-2.5 milliom pounds. Then if we maintain are gates of around 15,000 per game and with new sponsers and other match day sales, revenue will be in £6-£8 million range. This gives a total running cost of £15-£17.5 million per season. This unsustainable even at championship level, so what next and how long can the club hold out before it hits the financial buffers that is what concerns me.
where do you get that it is a loan (for the training ground which I assume was originally effectively a 'loan' arrangement) I thought this had been shelved. The report clearly states that the asset would remain in the club.
how do you calculate the running costs?
I think it the idea is to sustain the club till next summer, then see how the land lies, we will still retain very saleable assets and may have gained promotion
[cite]Posted By: razil[/cite]where do you get that it is a loan (for the training ground which I assume was originally effectively a 'loan' arrangement) I thought this had been shelved.
how do you calculate the running costs?
Just what I was typing. Maybe in was in the last set of accounts?
[cite]Posted By: razil[/cite]where do you get that it is a loan (for the training ground which I assume was originally effectively a 'loan' arrangement) I thought this had been shelved.
how do you calculate the running costs?
Just what I was typing. Maybe in was in the last set of accounts?
Yes when Murray announced the extra investment at the start of the season his pension fund was buying the training ground, but now he has not gone a head with that and the money mst now be loan and probably not from his pension fund. Well easy to estimate revenue, lets assume an average match day ticket price of £18 ans a gate of 15,000 then that works out at £270,000 per match and 23 matches gives £6.21 million. I have not counted cup games in this either, then one must guess corporate sponsership and corporate match day lounge sales, also programe sales shirt sales and so forth but a figure of £2million can not be that far out. So all this money must be spent on the running costs of the club.
[cite]Posted By: somerton[/cite]Yes when Murray announced the extra investment at the start of the season his pension fund was buying the training ground, but now he has not gone a head with that and the money mst now be loan and probably not from his pension fund. Well easy to estimate revenue, lets assume an average match day ticket price of £18 ans a gate of 15,000 then that works out at £270,000 per match and 23 matches gives £6.21 million. I have not counted cup games in this either, then one must guess corporate sponsership and corporate match day lounge sales, also programe sales shirt sales and so forth but a figure of £2million can not be that far out.
So all this money must be spent on the running costs of the club.
While I don't dispute what u've written here necessarily aren't you making an assumption about the the makeup of the investment which hasn't yet been clarified?
you think £6.21m in income vs £15-17.5m costs? (what are your costs based on, what is the new wage bill for example)?
Not sure I see much difference as a result of this.
Only from a personal point of view:
1. Takeover got close a few times and failed, presumably because the price was not right. Presumably the biggest element of that price was the amount of friendly debt that the current owners were prepared or not prepared to wipe out.
2. This takes away the spectre of administration but that was only a spectre in the minds of a few people. Where an organisation's key debts are "friendly" it is unlikely that the owners would allow it to slip into administration rather than sell at a cut price by wiping out said friendly debt (as they would be worse off as a result of doing so)
3. The money may provide for investment or preservation of the current squad - though the directors have already done this and this investment wasn't necessary - they've been putting their hands in their pockets for a few years now to keep the ship on an even keel. Suspect that the money will go towards making sure we get out of this league.
4. Pure guesswork: but the encouraging start to the season has signalled that there's a good chance to get back into the championship making us more attractive (and expensive) to potential investors.
Not trying to pour cold water on things. The amount of cash these guys have thrown at our club now and in the past is just unbelievable. Personally thought that we'd have lost a lot more players over the summer. The fact that Jonjo, Racon, Bailey and Sam are still around is a massive credit to all concerned and I'm really grateful.
Until someone comes on here and outlines the debts and the current board's plans and strategy we'll never know. But I hope that some money will be found either to buy a player or two in January, or to get a loan in (I know Parky isn't in favour of loanees, but needs must sometimes...).
Agree with DA9 on the previous page post #70. £7million at this level is a fine achievement,plus we have kept all our star players- well done all concerned. Off the pich and on Charlton Athletic are on the way BACK!
Hi Razil; The tone of the announcement in its self seems to indicate the money will only cover the club for this season. It was only last week that we found out that wehave the highest wage bill in this division, now before the shake out of players are player wage bill in the championship will have been around £20+ million so we can make an educated guess that are player wages must be approaching £10 million, then you have the none playing staff wages including the exutive officers of the club, also the tun costs of the stadium and training ground. I remember being told that the rates on the stadium are £1million a year and of course you payments on the mortgages for the new stands, the remaining principle being £6million so what is the interest on that. So you can see how the estimate builds up.
what date was it 20 million, there have been a large number of leavers since 'then', and quite a number of loanees during that period. and what is the average wage bill for league 1, wasn't there also talk of renegotiating the rates?
I guess I'm suggesting its all a bit speculative.
can you lay out your working in a column too much easier to read..
A rumour i heard,and i hate rumours,was that it WAS the arab mob that came back in but it failed again for whatever reason.Possibly because they didn't fancy blowing their dough on a club in the THIRD tier of english football.However,according to rumour,they still like us,our location and set up and will be monitoring the next couple of seasons very closely.If it looks like we're making good progress then they'll be back in and the board have been assured by them that they will blow any other potential bids out of the water.
A good incentive to get your house in order and start working hard to push things forward maybe?
[cite]Posted By: carly burn[/cite]A rumour i heard,and i hate rumours,was that it WAS the arab mob that came back in but it failed again for whatever reason.Possibly because they didn't fancy blowing their dough on a club in the THIRD tier of english football.However,according to rumour,they still like us,our location and set up and will be monitoring the next couple of seasons very closely.If it looks like we're making good progress then they'll be back in and the board have been assured by them that they will blow any other potential bids out of the water.
A good incentive to get your house in order and start working hard to push things forward maybe?
Nice to hear and if true, fantastic. Let's wait and see and enjoy the football for now.
[cite]Posted By: carly burn[/cite]A good incentive to get your house in order and start working hard to push things forward maybe?
definitely a good incentive, but a gamble for the directors too. They are supposed to be at the limit of what they can invest, but they've put in more money hoping that we get promoted and the consortium come back in. What if we miss out on promotion or the consortium change their minds? We should be able to keep the squad together now, but i wouldn't be that surprised to see us finish anywhere from 1st to 8th. Just speculating.
Failed takeovers have disrupted the club for two seasons in a row now.
[quote][cite]Posted By: razil[/cite]what date was it 20 million, there have been a large number of leavers since 'then', and quite a number of loanees during that period. and what is the average wage bill for league 1, wasn't there also talk of renegotiating the rates?
I guess I'm suggesting its all a bit speculative.
can you lay out your working in a column too much easier to read..
:D[/quote]
The wage figures come from the clubs last set of accounts which highlighted the losses for the 2007/2008 season and the prospective losses for the 2008/2009 season, so you can only extrapalte or guess from those figures. Yes figures speculative but will be in the wright ball park. I rememeber at the end of are last season in the premiership I did the same type of speculation based on the limited figures available over the previous 3 seasons and estimated that relagation would leave the club in £40 million debt which seems to be not far from the truth. All this things can only be educated gueses.
This is good news IMO. It gives us stability and hopefully a bit of flexibility in the short term at least. I am grateful to those behind this.
Particulary pleased by the training ground development - even the likes of Nick Gray will surely see that as a demonstration of commitment to the long term future of the club?
I also want to add to the choruses of appreciation of those taking up VP positions following the reorganisation - I hope they realise that their contributions (not only financial) to our great club are very much appreciated and will not be forgotten.
BTW That would be great if true, Carly, but I don't want to think about it - we've been there before!
I wince a bit when paying £25 a ticket for my West stand seat. Can you imagine how Murray and co feel when paying 1 million plus each year to run Charlton! But i guess it is the same, or similar, for every team at the moment. Overall this is great news for us and i am delighted that RM is firmly in charge again.
[cite]Posted By: carly burn[/cite]A rumour i heard,and i hate rumours,was that it WAS the arab mob that came back in but it failed again for whatever reason.Possibly because they didn't fancy blowing their dough on a club in the THIRD tier of english football.However,according to rumour,they still like us,our location and set up and will be monitoring the next couple of seasons very closely.If it looks like we're making good progress then they'll be back in and the board have been assured by them that they will blow any other potential bids out of the water.
A good incentive to get your house in order and start working hard to push things forward maybe?
interesting if true - however if they are worth billions I fail to see how a few million here and there makes much difference.
If they can blow any other bid out of the water why not just do it now while we are cheap
Real shame to see such legends of the club like Martin Simmons and Roger Alwen have to leave the board, however if this helps us go forward then this is an unfortunate consequence. The role both men played in rescuing this club and then building into something is something I and many others will never forgot.
Interesting that David Hughes has now joined the PLC board as I think this is the first time he has done this since joining the clubs board in the mid nineties. He has spent a lot of money trying to keep Rugby League going in London through first the London Broncos and now Harlequins Rugby League, mainly to no avail, but does show that the bloke cares about his sport and the place he has in a community.
After our appalling start to League 1 (6 wins and 2 draws), this boardroom downsizing is terrible news. Could we not have borrowed some directors from one or two of the Premier League clubs?
[quote][cite]Posted By: BBClaus[/cite][quote][cite]Posted By: carly burn[/cite]A good incentive to get your house in order and start working hard to push things forward maybe?[/quote]
definitely a good incentive, but a gamble for the directors too. They are supposed to be at the limit of what they can invest, but they've put in more money hoping that we get promoted and the consortium come back in. What if we miss out on promotion or the consortium change their minds? We should be able to keep the squad together now, but i wouldn't be that surprised to see us finish anywhere from 1st to 8th. Just speculating.
Failed takeovers have disrupted the club for two seasons in a row now.[/quote]
Have only skim read the rest of the thread so apologies if I'm repeating what has already been said but overall this seems to be good news.
This is pure unfounded speculation but the wording of the statement to me indicates that there were factions attempting to pull in oposite directions on the Board. It seems an agreement has been reached whereby those who are willing (or able) to stabilise and rebuild the club to eventually sell from a stronger position have injected working capital and taken control.
Credit should go to the Team and Phil Parkinson for the excellent start to the season and also to the existing board for not panicking and holding a fire sale when we were relegated. I suspect we wouldn't be reading this statement if we were midtable.
Out of interest can anyone who has a more detailed knowledge of the PLC give a bit of information on some of the names mentioned in the statement? Most are familiar but there a quite a few that I know next to nothing about.
More money coming in. That's good, but the nature of the money and how long it will 'stabilise' us for is unclear.
Directors who appeared to want out a few weeks ago now want in. Why? Taking a punt on getting more money for the club in the Championship? That's still a long way off in my view. And I don't see that we will be particularly attractive when we get there.
Never really bought into the idea that it is good to be owned and directed by 'Charlton people'. Feels too much like 'good ol' plucky family-club Charlton' to me. A local club for local people. Besides, I'm a Charlton person and I couldn't manage a whelk stall. In fact the directors being fans may have worked against good governance - I suspect emotion may have got in the way of clear-sighted decision making once or twice in recent years for some of them.
Overall I suppose it is consolation news rather than good news. Still, if it means no sales this year then it is welcome(ish).
Comments
has he changed his name on there?
But and this does raise a but! What does it say about the running costs of the club and long term sustainability in the lower leagues. If I understand things correctly then in the last 4 months the folowing large cash injections have occured or are about to. First £1.5 million for the training ground but which has now been converted into a loan, a further £5.5 million in loans and from player transactions about £2-2.5 milliom pounds. Then if we maintain are gates of around 15,000 per game and with new sponsers and other match day sales, revenue will be in £6-£8 million range. This gives a total running cost of £15-£17.5 million per season. This unsustainable even at championship level, so what next and how long can the club hold out before it hits the financial buffers that is what concerns me.
how do you calculate the running costs?
I think it the idea is to sustain the club till next summer, then see how the land lies, we will still retain very saleable assets and may have gained promotion
almost completely different playing squad tho
So all this money must be spent on the running costs of the club.
Yep.
can someone paste it pls?
While I don't dispute what u've written here necessarily aren't you making an assumption about the the makeup of the investment which hasn't yet been clarified?
you think £6.21m in income vs £15-17.5m costs? (what are your costs based on, what is the new wage bill for example)?
Snigger.....
Only from a personal point of view:
1. Takeover got close a few times and failed, presumably because the price was not right. Presumably the biggest element of that price was the amount of friendly debt that the current owners were prepared or not prepared to wipe out.
2. This takes away the spectre of administration but that was only a spectre in the minds of a few people. Where an organisation's key debts are "friendly" it is unlikely that the owners would allow it to slip into administration rather than sell at a cut price by wiping out said friendly debt (as they would be worse off as a result of doing so)
3. The money may provide for investment or preservation of the current squad - though the directors have already done this and this investment wasn't necessary - they've been putting their hands in their pockets for a few years now to keep the ship on an even keel. Suspect that the money will go towards making sure we get out of this league.
4. Pure guesswork: but the encouraging start to the season has signalled that there's a good chance to get back into the championship making us more attractive (and expensive) to potential investors.
Not trying to pour cold water on things. The amount of cash these guys have thrown at our club now and in the past is just unbelievable. Personally thought that we'd have lost a lot more players over the summer. The fact that Jonjo, Racon, Bailey and Sam are still around is a massive credit to all concerned and I'm really grateful.
Until someone comes on here and outlines the debts and the current board's plans and strategy we'll never know. But I hope that some money will be found either to buy a player or two in January, or to get a loan in (I know Parky isn't in favour of loanees, but needs must sometimes...).
The tone of the announcement in its self seems to indicate the money will only cover the club for this season. It was only last week that we found out that wehave the highest wage bill in this division, now before the shake out of players are player wage bill in the championship will have been around £20+ million so we can make an educated guess that are player wages must be approaching £10 million, then you have the none playing staff wages including the exutive officers of the club, also the tun costs of the stadium and training ground. I remember being told that the rates on the stadium are £1million a year and of course you payments on the mortgages for the new stands, the remaining principle being £6million so what is the interest on that. So you can see how the estimate builds up.
I guess I'm suggesting its all a bit speculative.
can you lay out your working in a column too much easier to read..
A good incentive to get your house in order and start working hard to push things forward maybe?
Nice to hear and if true, fantastic. Let's wait and see and enjoy the football for now.
definitely a good incentive, but a gamble for the directors too. They are supposed to be at the limit of what they can invest, but they've put in more money hoping that we get promoted and the consortium come back in. What if we miss out on promotion or the consortium change their minds? We should be able to keep the squad together now, but i wouldn't be that surprised to see us finish anywhere from 1st to 8th. Just speculating.
Failed takeovers have disrupted the club for two seasons in a row now.
I guess I'm suggesting its all a bit speculative.
can you lay out your working in a column too much easier to read..
:D[/quote]
The wage figures come from the clubs last set of accounts which highlighted the losses for the 2007/2008 season and the prospective losses for the 2008/2009 season, so you can only extrapalte or guess from those figures. Yes figures speculative but will be in the wright ball park.
I rememeber at the end of are last season in the premiership I did the same type of speculation based on the limited figures available over the previous 3 seasons and estimated that relagation would leave the club in £40 million debt which seems to be not far from the truth. All this things can only be educated gueses.
Particulary pleased by the training ground development - even the likes of Nick Gray will surely see that as a demonstration of commitment to the long term future of the club?
I also want to add to the choruses of appreciation of those taking up VP positions following the reorganisation - I hope they realise that their contributions (not only financial) to our great club are very much appreciated and will not be forgotten.
BTW That would be great if true, Carly, but I don't want to think about it - we've been there before!
interesting if true - however if they are worth billions I fail to see how a few million here and there makes much difference.
If they can blow any other bid out of the water why not just do it now while we are cheap
Interesting that David Hughes has now joined the PLC board as I think this is the first time he has done this since joining the clubs board in the mid nineties. He has spent a lot of money trying to keep Rugby League going in London through first the London Broncos and now Harlequins Rugby League, mainly to no avail, but does show that the bloke cares about his sport and the place he has in a community.
definitely a good incentive, but a gamble for the directors too. They are supposed to be at the limit of what they can invest, but they've put in more money hoping that we get promoted and the consortium come back in. What if we miss out on promotion or the consortium change their minds? We should be able to keep the squad together now, but i wouldn't be that surprised to see us finish anywhere from 1st to 8th. Just speculating.
Failed takeovers have disrupted the club for two seasons in a row now.[/quote]
gotta say this is my big worry
This is pure unfounded speculation but the wording of the statement to me indicates that there were factions attempting to pull in oposite directions on the Board. It seems an agreement has been reached whereby those who are willing (or able) to stabilise and rebuild the club to eventually sell from a stronger position have injected working capital and taken control.
Credit should go to the Team and Phil Parkinson for the excellent start to the season and also to the existing board for not panicking and holding a fire sale when we were relegated. I suspect we wouldn't be reading this statement if we were midtable.
Out of interest can anyone who has a more detailed knowledge of the PLC give a bit of information on some of the names mentioned in the statement? Most are familiar but there a quite a few that I know next to nothing about.
The takeover talks have failed. That's bad.
More money coming in. That's good, but the nature of the money and how long it will 'stabilise' us for is unclear.
Directors who appeared to want out a few weeks ago now want in. Why? Taking a punt on getting more money for the club in the Championship? That's still a long way off in my view. And I don't see that we will be particularly attractive when we get there.
Never really bought into the idea that it is good to be owned and directed by 'Charlton people'. Feels too much like 'good ol' plucky family-club Charlton' to me. A local club for local people. Besides, I'm a Charlton person and I couldn't manage a whelk stall. In fact the directors being fans may have worked against good governance - I suspect emotion may have got in the way of clear-sighted decision making once or twice in recent years for some of them.
Overall I suppose it is consolation news rather than good news. Still, if it means no sales this year then it is welcome(ish).