[cite]Posted By: Telnotinoz[/cite] .they had a machine that poured 8 pints at a time...one staff member operating it...another taking your money and another to hand you your ice cold beer...
Been to a few grounds in England who have this system.
I'm sure the relevant brewers are more than happy to provide the equipment.
Following on from some great suggestions above, surely an oyster style card will also reduce the number of staff needed at turnstiles. Not that I would encourage people losing their jobs but for the club to be interested, they will need to see the benefit to them of outlaying the money for setting it up. (Next season would be more realistic though as this season's rip-out tickets are already issued!)
Also re the scoreboard, why not put up the lyrics to some chants and call it Addick-karaoke to get the kids involved and for everyone to make some noise if it goes quiet? It seems to work with FEEEESH! We could even have the bouncing ball above the words so the non-musicians among us can keep up. Or we can just chant RED ARMY & C.A.F.C. all afternoon. ;-)
I'm sure the relevant brewers are more than happy to provide the equipment.
Maybe. That's what I meant about costing out the ideas. If they are free then great. If they cost £3k what then?
Tel, I'd politely suggest that you and the FF keep reminding the particular managers about issues such as the catering. I know a lot of things will be on hold because the t*********r but if it does happen hopefully there will be a little money for spending on infrastructure so now would be a good time to investigate with other clubs how much the pouring machines cost for example.
I also found Paul Ellison and Mick Everett willing to listen and explain their thinking behind decisions. I didn't always agree with them 100% but they did have reasons. That then gives you and FF a chance to challenge those reasons and suggest alternatives.
There's a lot of practical thought and ideas coming through here .....
The solution is that we, as a co-operative, need to form our own business and take over the catering at The Valley.
That truly would be the CAFC Supporters Trust in action!
And if that was a success, we'd take over the Royal Oak too. ;o)
[cite]Posted By: Addickted[/cite]That's all very well, but what about the decent beer?
No point in having decent beer if the service is going to be anything like the shambles that was going on in the lower west on Tuesday.
I'd hate to think how much money the club missed out on there because people got pissed of waiting!
I've often thought that in the north upper. Apparently they won't prepare pints in advance because the beer connoisseurs of the valley demand fresh beer. Frankly, if I'm drinking piss like Fosters, I'm not going to be choosy, so I suspect if the club ever asked it's supporters that they'd find one of those multi pint gizmos and actually do a stock at each bar in anticipation of half time, it would see them sell a load more (high profit) product.
I've done volunteer work at festivals before and those things are fine if you're having crap beer out of plastics. Simple way to sort it out is to have a couple of booths knocking out pints from the machine and if you want to q for a fresh one or tea or something go to the other counters. It gets a lot of the beer drinkers out of the other qs too and you end up selling a lot more of everything. Even if the machine isn't a starter just pre-pouring pints and making them available in a fast-track position is basically good business.
[cite]Posted By: AjaxAddick[/cite]Following on from some great suggestions above, surely an oyster style card will also reduce the number of staff needed at turnstiles. Not that I would encourage people losing their jobs but for the club to be interested, they will need to see the benefit to them of outlaying the money for setting it up. (Next season would be more realistic though as this season's rip-out tickets are already issued!)
Also re the scoreboard, why not put up the lyrics to some chants and call it Addick-karaoke to get the kids involved and for everyone to make some noise if it goes quiet? It seems to work with FEEEESH! We could even have the bouncing ball above the words so the non-musicians among us can keep up. Or we can just chant RED ARMY & C.A.F.C. all afternoon. ;-)
Went to Ajax a couple of years ago and it works well there.
Don't think we'll see the scoreboard next year, so that's out, but I'm not a fan of the scoreboard as a cheer-leader. They did it with the clapper things (which I also first encountered at Ajax) and it makes it feel like we're a joke club like Reading that need to be told when to sing. Don't get me going on music after goals...
How about playing bright attractive, attacking football, scoring lots of goals, winning games, a never say die attitude on the pitch never mind what the score is...
Wouldn't that persuade the punters to turn up and hand over their cash?
Obviously this year isn't the year to implement a lot of suggestions but it's worth looking in to the simple short-term ideas and also some of the more ambitious long-term projects that members have for when there are funds available to invest in the Club again. I've heard there might be a takeover happening so maybe new owners would want to invest in the supporters too??
It is our club so in addtion to investing in our Martin Christensens and Dean Sinclairs, why not also invest in improving our matchday environment too? This may entice more people to go to games, increase sales in the ground and provide value for money.
What has been tried in the past but didn't work then could be tried again and may work now. 10 years was a long time ago and a lot has changed in terms of adapting to the IT-age we now find ourselves in.
I'm sure the relevant brewers are more than happy to provide the equipment.
Maybe. That's what I meant about costing out the ideas. If they are free then great. If they cost £3k what then?
Tel, I'd politely suggest that you and the FF keep reminding the particular managers about issues such as the catering. I know a lot of things will be on hold because the t*********r but if it does happen hopefully there will be a little money for spending on infrastructure so now would be a good time to investigate with other clubs how much the pouring machines cost for example.
I also found Paul Ellison and Mick Everett willing to listen and explain their thinking behind decisions. I didn't always agree with them 100% but they did have reasons. That then gives you and FF a chance to challenge those reasons and suggest alternatives.
Ben, you'd think that as a company they would want to optimise the "take" on match days, but at a risk of being anti Charlton, I get the impression that some parts of the empire are living in a "Comfort Zone". The corporate side of the catering department is generally pretty good....but that caters for a minority, albeit their average spend will be quite high. The majority just arent catered for adequetly..when the subject is mentioned, you get the glazed look.....its not good enough, but if the powers that be are content to let things go, then there is precious little you can do to instigate change.....they have to be open and willing to suggestions, and in my general experience that just isnt the case unless it comes down to pushing season tickets sales.....does that sound a little cynical? Well I'll apologise in advance because it is.
Tel, I'd take your word for that. And we need to get away from our old mentality where the idea that constructive criticism and suggestion is in some way anti-Charlton. Most businesses would piss themselves with excitement if a large group of their customers spent its spare time thinking up ideas for them to make more revenue.
To be fair I don't know if these things are properly considered, and just not viable for some reason that we haven't considered. I think when you (FF) put these things forward you should at least get a written response to explain why they might not be a go-er. Maybe when you (we're) putting suggestions forward we should try to do it in a really businessy way, it would help e.g. project the amount of extra cost and revenue that it might bring in - harder to ignore numbers than something more subjective?
On an unreservedly positive note, I did the corporate thing once and have to say I was very impressed. There's a number of aspects of the club that are still Premiership.
[cite]Posted By: Henry Irving[/cite]
Maybe fully costed plans with examples from other clubs presented to the board would get a reaction and be harder for the managers to ignore.
Maybe not quite revenue generating ideas, but posted these on another forum a few months back in a discussion about maximising ticket sales:
I like the idea of 3 or 4 free away tickets and/or cup games to be included in the season ticket. Would have the double whammy that way of an incentive to buy the ticket in the first place and it should also help to raise our away and cup match attendances, hoepfully to the positive influence of results!
Things like buy one adult ticket and get a kids ticket free or for a pound a game in the Family enclosure are good too, and I don't think you have to restrict that to just season ticket sales either.
You could run a loyalty scheme where 6 home ticket stubs = money off the club shop, or a free or reduced ticket for another game or free travel to an away match on the coach or something.
Buy a season ticket and get free use of the Valley Express.
When I was out in Canada last year you could buy tickets to see the Stampeders from bars for about $5 to $10 over the ticket price and that included a meal before the game and a free drink after it, we could look into similar kinds of deals with local pubs and restaurants.
I freely admit I'm not a businessman or a marketing guru and the ideas would need to be costed, for example to make sure you sell enough tickets before giving away a free one so you still make money out of the whole deal. The local pubs one might be a bit difficult too because regulations regarding ticket sales are a lot stricter here, but maybe you could buy your ticket and a meal voucher at the club rather than buy your ticket at the pub, the club then takes a slice of the cost of the meal and the drink and the pub probably wins in extra drinks sales, especially if you have a win to celebrate (that might be a bit far fetched though!).
I'm sure the relevant brewers are more than happy to provide the equipment.
Maybe. That's what I meant about costing out the ideas. If they are free then great. If they cost £3k what then?
Tel, I'd politely suggest that you and the FF keep reminding the particular managers about issues such as the catering. I know a lot of things will be on hold because the t*********r but if it does happen hopefully there will be a little money for spending on infrastructure so now would be a good time to investigate with other clubs how much the pouring machines cost for example.
I also found Paul Ellison and Mick Everett willing to listen and explain their thinking behind decisions. I didn't always agree with them 100% but they did have reasons. That then gives you and FF a chance to challenge those reasons and suggest alternatives.
Ben, you'd think that as a company they would want to optimise the "take" on match days, but at a risk of being anti Charlton, I get the impression that some parts of the empire are living in a "Comfort Zone". The corporate side of the catering department is generally pretty good....but that caters for a minority, albeit their average spend will be quite high. The majority just arent catered for adequetly..when the subject is mentioned, you get the glazed look.....its not good enough, but if the powers that be are content to let things go, then there is precious little you can do to instigate change.....they have to be open and willing to suggestions, and in my general experience that just isnt the case unless it comes down to pushing season tickets sales.....does that sound a little cynical? Well I'll apologise in advance because it is.
It really depends on the quality of the ideas and whether they are put forward in time to be part of the process, but I would say over nearly 20 years the club has been more open to supporter input on ticketing than any other in the country. I don't see how you can extrapolate "general experience" from what happened to the FF input this year when it tried to intervene in a lengthy process at a point when it had already been resolved.
As you're also well aware, the "part of the empire" that determined season-ticket policy was the board of directors.
[cite]Posted By: Exiled_Addick[/cite]Maybe not quite revenue generating ideas, but posted these on another forum a few months back in a discussion about maximising ticket sales:
I like the idea of 3 or 4 free away tickets and/or cup games to be included in the season ticket. Would have the double whammy that way of an incentive to buy the ticket in the first place and it should also help to raise our away and cup match attendances, hoepfully to the positive influence of results!
Things like buy one adult ticket and get a kids ticket free or for a pound a game in the Family enclosure are good too, and I don't think you have to restrict that to just season ticket sales either.
You could run a loyalty scheme where 6 home ticket stubs = money off the club shop, or a free or reduced ticket for another game or free travel to an away match on the coach or something.
Buy a season ticket and get free use of the Valley Express.
When I was out in Canada last year you could buy tickets to see the Stampeders from bars for about $5 to $10 over the ticket price and that included a meal before the game and a free drink after it, we could look into similar kinds of deals with local pubs and restaurants.
I freely admit I'm not a businessman or a marketing guru and the ideas would need to be costed, for example to make sure you sell enough tickets before giving away a free one so you still make money out of the whole deal. The local pubs one might be a bit difficult too because regulations regarding ticket sales are a lot stricter here, but maybe you could buy your ticket and a meal voucher at the club rather than buy your ticket at the pub, the club then takes a slice of the cost of the meal and the drink and the pub probably wins in extra drinks sales, especially if you have a win to celebrate (that might be a bit far fetched though!).
Again, the following is not to pour cold water, but as an explanation of why we don't do some of these things:
From experience, if you offered free travel on Valley Express (to season-ticket holders), there would be a big increase in uptake (with no additional revenue). I'd imagine you'd also get a reaction from locally based fans that they were in effect paying more for their ST. We reckon the profit from additional spending at the ground over and above ticket price works out very roughly an average of £1 per person. Now that doesn't sound much, but you need to bear in mind that a lot of people spend nothing at all and the cost of sale attached to retail/print/refreshments is significant. It'd be a long stretch to cover the £7 cost of the coach place per match on the extra sales and £138 (the season pass on Valley Express) is a hefty chunk of the revenue from a season-ticket to make up in additional sales off the back of free travel. You'd also wipe out all the existing season pass revenue. In fact, there'd be a stronger argument for simply cutting the costs of season tickets all round - and that was explored at great length last spring.
I don't know what mechanism you would use for including away tickets in season tickets - presumably some kind of voucher for exchange when you wanted to go - but as the club gets virtually no revenue from away ticket sales that would be a straightforward cost based on take-up. If someone used four away tickets at £20 each that is effectively a £80 gross revenue reduction against that season ticket. You'd have to cover that by increasing ST prices, which would potentially be unfair on people who don't travel away, or you'd simply have less revenue and might as well use the difference to cut ST prices in the first place.
A similar argument applies to cup games, where revenue is shared with the visiting club. Every cup ticket taken up on this basis would cost the club money it would have to pay to the opposition and the competition body. This is typically done by clubs who are guaranteed European competition, but it doesn't really work where most people don't want to go to what will be minor cup ties. I think if CAFC ever did it, it would be to justify a price increase and would be seen as a tax on the people who didn't want to attend these cup games, rather than a benefit to those who do.
On loyalty schemes for ticket purchase, I'd be concerned at anything that delivered match purchasers benefits not offered to season ticket holders.
Maybe it would be useful for the FF to compile a list of such suggestions that can be discussed at or before the meeting so that either some reasoning, such as above, can be given or new ideas can be taken on board and investigated further.
I think that would help as fans would get a response (via the FF) and the FF might feel that suggestions are being listened to.
I don't know if there is a catering version of the Target 40k but perhaps Paul Ellison or Dave Archer could arrange something with the FF.
Rick....not sure where you thought the FF was "trying to intervene" We put forward an agenda which was agreed with the CEO....if he wasnt aware of the fact that you had gone too far forward with the process for us to make some suggestions, then really that speaks volumes in itself. However, we were encouraged as a Forum to push season ticket sales in subsequent meetings and some of the output from the club regarding sales and the impact it might have on the team management is well documented elsewhere. Im not quite sure where you may have thought that I was having a dig at you and or your department, because in fact I wasnt. We have met as a Forum probably 2-3 times a month for the last 9 months....so when I say General experience, that doesnt really include the one or two meetings out of possibly 20+ that you have attended. The quality of the ideas as you put it...well thats all down to interpretation isnt it...we were formed to represent the fans.....if the fans make a suggestion then we are duty bound to pass them on to the club....or maybe I have been kidding myself that the Fans Forum is of value to the club and indeed the fans?
[cite]Posted By: Telnotinoz[/cite]Rick....not sure where you thought the FF was "trying to intervene" We put forward an agenda which was agreed with the CEO....if he wasnt aware of the fact that you had gone too far forward with the process for us to make some suggestions, then really that speaks volumes in itself. However, we were encouraged as a Forum to push season ticket sales in subsequent meetings and some of the output from the club regarding sales and the impact it might have on the team management is well documented elsewhere. Im not quite sure where you may have thought that I was having a dig at you and or your department, because in fact I wasnt. We have met as a Forum probably 2-3 times a month for the last 9 months....so when I say General experience, that doesnt really include the one or two meetings out of possibly 20+ that you have attended. The quality of the ideas as you put it...well thats all down to interpretation isnt it...we were formed to represent the fans.....if the fans make a suggestion then we are duty bound to pass them on to the club....or maybe I have been kidding myself that the Fans Forum is of value to the club and indeed the fans?
Fair enough if you're talking about what has gone on subsequent to the pricing policy and the campaign, although I don't think to be honest there is much anyone could have done to promote additional ticket sales within the context we have been working.
I don't have any criticism to make of the actions of the people who make up the FF, although I'm not keen on the concept. The club needs to engage much more effectively with its supporters on all fronts, but that's a far bigger subject.
I was indeed.....but if you think the effort we put in to publicise the need to renew was in any way ineffective, then I'll grab my coat and not bother getting involved, what I put out on the clubs behalf will and does reflect on me personally, and certain comments made from within the club were somewhat misleading in my opinion.
I agree that the club needs to engage more effectively, but in the end the club will dictate if they wish to listen and dare I say it...learn. The indicators from the current regime arent looking very favourable, so good luck to those that wish to instigate change.
Airman, thank you for the reasoned feeback - these are my thoughts on your response.
[cite]Posted By: Airman Brown[/cite]
From experience, if you offered free travel on Valley Express (to season-ticket holders), there would be a big increase in uptake (with no additional revenue). I'd imagine you'd also get a reaction from locally based fans that they were in effect paying more for their ST.We reckon the profit from additional spending at the ground over and above ticket price works out very roughly an average of £1 per person. Now that doesn't sound much, but you need to bear in mind that a lot of people spend nothing at all and the cost of sale attached to retail/print/refreshments is significant. It'd be a long stretch to cover the £7 cost of the coach place per match on the extra sales and £138 (the season pass on Valley Express) is a hefty chunk of the revenue from a season-ticket to make up in additional sales off the back of free travel. You'd also wipe out all the existing season pass revenue. In fact, there'd be a stronger argument for simply cutting the costs of season tickets all round - and that was explored at great length last spring.
Would there be a reaction? I guess some may grumble a bit, but is there any objection from those that live north and west of the Valley that there is no subsidised travel on offer now? I remember writing a, admitedly slightly cheeky, letter to Peter Varney asking for a couple of free Operation Riverside T-Shirts because I'd been to every free away travel match but never been able to use the free travel because I live in the west midlands and the coaches never came anywhere near me. The response was along of the lines of 'tough luck, not my fault you live where you do - we're running a business not a charity'. Put much more diplomatic than that but that was the general gist.
As I say, the idea was one to try and maximise season ticket sales, so it's little out of date now, but if it encouraged people to buy a ticket I'd say it was a good thing, even if i couldn't take advantage of the offer and the idea wouldn't be to put up everyone else's prices to cover the cost, but to cover the cost with additional sales. If you're telling me there is no way we'd generate enough extra reveue by ticket sales alone though, I happily bow to your superior knowledge.
There is also the added value to take into account that a fuller stadium could mean better support and better results, but it's hard to put monetary value on such a thing and even harder for club with our dodgy finances to subsidise right now.
I don't know what mechanism you would use for including away tickets in season tickets - presumably some kind of voucher for exchange when you wanted to go - but as the club gets virtually no revenue from away ticket sales that would be a straightforward cost based on take-up. If someone used four away tickets at £20 each that is effectively a £80 gross revenue reduction against that season ticket. You'd have to cover that by increasing ST prices, which would potentially be unfair on people who don't travel away, or you'd simply have less revenue and might as well use the difference to cut ST prices in the first place.
Again, this was meant as an incentive to buy a season ticket rather than buy on a game by game basis. Again, I have no background in doing the costings on something like this, but if you sell more then it helps to cancel out the fact you make less money on each ticket. The club have done something on this by reducing the season ticket prices relative to matchday tickets, but I do feel we ought to be doing something to try and encourage a more numerous away support. It certainly can't help our away form when we have less than 500 fans at the game, although I acept the terrible form and poor attendances are not coincidental.
A similar argument applies to cup games, where revenue is shared with the visiting club. Every cup ticket taken up on this basis would cost the club money it would have to pay to the opposition and the competition body. This is typically done by clubs who are guaranteed European competition, but it doesn't really work where most people don't want to go to what will be minor cup ties. I think if CAFC ever did it, it would be to justify a price increase and would be seen as a tax on the people who didn't want to attend these cup games, rather than a benefit to those who do.
This is fair comment and just highlights how little I know!
On loyalty schemes for ticket purchase, I'd be concerned at anything that delivered match purchasers benefits not offered to season ticket holders.
You cover this by putting extra incentives in the season ticket, such as the away tickets and also by keeping matchday prices a bit higher than season ticket prices.
Season ticket holders should always be given a bit of a sweetner for making the upfront commitment, but that doesn't mean you can't do things to entice people who want the freedom of only buying as and when to buy more often. Lets face it, if we're to get 15 to 18K throught the dorrs (like we should be aiming to imo) we'll need almost as many on the day buyers as season ticket holders.
Like I say though, I have very little knowledge of just how these would cost out - if 4 away tickets is too many to give away, make it 2, or make it buy one get one free or something. I'm sure there must be ways to squeeze a few added extras in so that the profit from the added sales would cover the additional costs.
How about a 'bring a friend' voucher in the season ticket, that entitles a guest of a season ticket holder to half price admission once or twice a season and free half time pie or something to try and encourage a few floating football fans into become fully signed up Addicks.
How about a 'bring a friend' voucher in the season ticket, that entitles a guest of a season ticket holder to half price admission once or twice a season and free half time pie or something to try and encourage a few floating football fans into become fully signed up Addicks.
I think there is something in the idea that season ticket holders should be able to bring guests at a cheaper price on occasion, although you'd probably find a lot of the extras were in fact people who were planning to attend anyway and simply linked up with their ST-holding pals to get the ticket for less.
And if one fan going regularly on his own gets a bit, shall we say, disillusioned - then he's more likely to continue going to matches if his mate/drinking partner is going also.
It's important to get as many bums on seats at matches, not only for catering/commercial reasons but also for the atmosphere within the stadium.
It must be a bit disheartening for players to play in a stadium like The Valley, with huge gaps in the crowd.
[cite]Posted By: Airman Brown[/cite]I think there is something in the idea that season ticket holders should be able to bring guests at a cheaper price on occasion, although you'd probably find a lot of the extras were in fact people who were planning to attend anyway and simply linked up with their ST-holding pals to get the ticket for less.
That's true Airman, but then that's the nature of special offers. I might be planning on buying a new telly from Currys anyway, but as luck might have it it may go into the sale at just the right time for me. That doesn't mean Currys don't sell any Tellys to other people purely because of the sale price.
[cite]Posted By: Airman Brown[/cite]I think there is something in the idea that season ticket holders should be able to bring guests at a cheaper price on occasion, although you'd probably find a lot of the extras were in fact people who were planning to attend anyway and simply linked up with their ST-holding pals to get the ticket for less.
It's true, but it might get some in that it wouldn't otherwise and it might lead to something else. I went to my first game, against Watford, not long after we were back to the Valley. A mate living locally had got a flyer advertising entry for a fiver so convinced me to go - we may well have gone if it was regular price, which wasn't a lot more in them days. 15-odd years of season tickets later...
Lose on the day, the difference between a full price ticket (which may have remained unsold) and the special offer price - or gain the revenue from what may become a life time support plus bringing along eventually their own children, family and friends.
Is there any mileage in doing a deal with Millwall?
Many years ago (well before my time), a lot of fans used to follow Charlton AND Millwall - whoever was playing at home that weekend. On that basis, is there a contra-deal the two clubs could work on? On the basis that Millwall ST holders could get, say, half-a-dozen games at The Valley (and vice versa). The cost would only be the opportunity cost of those potential East, West or Covered End seats (that otherwise would have been left unsold). And I am sure that Charlton could convert, say one in ten of those freebies into regular fans.
I know it goes against the grain to try to promote our club to another club's fans. But wouldn't it be better to have a seat occupied by an ex-Millwall (or Gilliingham, or Palace) fan now supporting Charlton, than another empty seat?
Comments
Been to a few grounds in England who have this system.
I'm sure the relevant brewers are more than happy to provide the equipment.
Also re the scoreboard, why not put up the lyrics to some chants and call it Addick-karaoke to get the kids involved and for everyone to make some noise if it goes quiet? It seems to work with FEEEESH! We could even have the bouncing ball above the words so the non-musicians among us can keep up. Or we can just chant RED ARMY & C.A.F.C. all afternoon. ;-)
You should know better young man...
Another one I remember ends with "...We hate Palace!"
BTW, decent beer may make the outlets more popular, leading to longer waiting times...
The solution is that we, as a co-operative, need to form our own business and take over the catering at The Valley.
That truly would be the CAFC Supporters Trust in action!
And if that was a success, we'd take over the Royal Oak too. ;o)
I've often thought that in the north upper. Apparently they won't prepare pints in advance because the beer connoisseurs of the valley demand fresh beer. Frankly, if I'm drinking piss like Fosters, I'm not going to be choosy, so I suspect if the club ever asked it's supporters that they'd find one of those multi pint gizmos and actually do a stock at each bar in anticipation of half time, it would see them sell a load more (high profit) product.
I've done volunteer work at festivals before and those things are fine if you're having crap beer out of plastics. Simple way to sort it out is to have a couple of booths knocking out pints from the machine and if you want to q for a fresh one or tea or something go to the other counters. It gets a lot of the beer drinkers out of the other qs too and you end up selling a lot more of everything. Even if the machine isn't a starter just pre-pouring pints and making them available in a fast-track position is basically good business.
Don't think we'll see the scoreboard next year, so that's out, but I'm not a fan of the scoreboard as a cheer-leader. They did it with the clapper things (which I also first encountered at Ajax) and it makes it feel like we're a joke club like Reading that need to be told when to sing. Don't get me going on music after goals...
Wouldn't that persuade the punters to turn up and hand over their cash?
It is our club so in addtion to investing in our Martin Christensens and Dean Sinclairs, why not also invest in improving our matchday environment too? This may entice more people to go to games, increase sales in the ground and provide value for money.
What has been tried in the past but didn't work then could be tried again and may work now. 10 years was a long time ago and a lot has changed in terms of adapting to the IT-age we now find ourselves in.
Ben, you'd think that as a company they would want to optimise the "take" on match days, but at a risk of being anti Charlton, I get the impression that some parts of the empire are living in a "Comfort Zone". The corporate side of the catering department is generally pretty good....but that caters for a minority, albeit their average spend will be quite high. The majority just arent catered for adequetly..when the subject is mentioned, you get the glazed look.....its not good enough, but if the powers that be are content to let things go, then there is precious little you can do to instigate change.....they have to be open and willing to suggestions, and in my general experience that just isnt the case unless it comes down to pushing season tickets sales.....does that sound a little cynical? Well I'll apologise in advance because it is.
I still think that if the catering issues are that important then they are worth persevering with.
Maybe fully costed plans with examples from other clubs presented to the board would get a reaction and be harder for the managers to ignore.
The FF didn't give up asking difficult questions of the board about the takeover. Maybe the same tactic will work on the catering side.
To be fair I don't know if these things are properly considered, and just not viable for some reason that we haven't considered. I think when you (FF) put these things forward you should at least get a written response to explain why they might not be a go-er. Maybe when you (we're) putting suggestions forward we should try to do it in a really businessy way, it would help e.g. project the amount of extra cost and revenue that it might bring in - harder to ignore numbers than something more subjective?
On an unreservedly positive note, I did the corporate thing once and have to say I was very impressed. There's a number of aspects of the club that are still Premiership.
Damn you and your quick typing...
I freely admit I'm not a businessman or a marketing guru and the ideas would need to be costed, for example to make sure you sell enough tickets before giving away a free one so you still make money out of the whole deal. The local pubs one might be a bit difficult too because regulations regarding ticket sales are a lot stricter here, but maybe you could buy your ticket and a meal voucher at the club rather than buy your ticket at the pub, the club then takes a slice of the cost of the meal and the drink and the pub probably wins in extra drinks sales, especially if you have a win to celebrate (that might be a bit far fetched though!).
It really depends on the quality of the ideas and whether they are put forward in time to be part of the process, but I would say over nearly 20 years the club has been more open to supporter input on ticketing than any other in the country. I don't see how you can extrapolate "general experience" from what happened to the FF input this year when it tried to intervene in a lengthy process at a point when it had already been resolved.
As you're also well aware, the "part of the empire" that determined season-ticket policy was the board of directors.
Again, the following is not to pour cold water, but as an explanation of why we don't do some of these things:
From experience, if you offered free travel on Valley Express (to season-ticket holders), there would be a big increase in uptake (with no additional revenue). I'd imagine you'd also get a reaction from locally based fans that they were in effect paying more for their ST. We reckon the profit from additional spending at the ground over and above ticket price works out very roughly an average of £1 per person. Now that doesn't sound much, but you need to bear in mind that a lot of people spend nothing at all and the cost of sale attached to retail/print/refreshments is significant. It'd be a long stretch to cover the £7 cost of the coach place per match on the extra sales and £138 (the season pass on Valley Express) is a hefty chunk of the revenue from a season-ticket to make up in additional sales off the back of free travel. You'd also wipe out all the existing season pass revenue. In fact, there'd be a stronger argument for simply cutting the costs of season tickets all round - and that was explored at great length last spring.
I don't know what mechanism you would use for including away tickets in season tickets - presumably some kind of voucher for exchange when you wanted to go - but as the club gets virtually no revenue from away ticket sales that would be a straightforward cost based on take-up. If someone used four away tickets at £20 each that is effectively a £80 gross revenue reduction against that season ticket. You'd have to cover that by increasing ST prices, which would potentially be unfair on people who don't travel away, or you'd simply have less revenue and might as well use the difference to cut ST prices in the first place.
A similar argument applies to cup games, where revenue is shared with the visiting club. Every cup ticket taken up on this basis would cost the club money it would have to pay to the opposition and the competition body. This is typically done by clubs who are guaranteed European competition, but it doesn't really work where most people don't want to go to what will be minor cup ties. I think if CAFC ever did it, it would be to justify a price increase and would be seen as a tax on the people who didn't want to attend these cup games, rather than a benefit to those who do.
On loyalty schemes for ticket purchase, I'd be concerned at anything that delivered match purchasers benefits not offered to season ticket holders.
Maybe it would be useful for the FF to compile a list of such suggestions that can be discussed at or before the meeting so that either some reasoning, such as above, can be given or new ideas can be taken on board and investigated further.
I think that would help as fans would get a response (via the FF) and the FF might feel that suggestions are being listened to.
I don't know if there is a catering version of the Target 40k but perhaps Paul Ellison or Dave Archer could arrange something with the FF.
Fair enough if you're talking about what has gone on subsequent to the pricing policy and the campaign, although I don't think to be honest there is much anyone could have done to promote additional ticket sales within the context we have been working.
I don't have any criticism to make of the actions of the people who make up the FF, although I'm not keen on the concept. The club needs to engage much more effectively with its supporters on all fronts, but that's a far bigger subject.
I agree that the club needs to engage more effectively, but in the end the club will dictate if they wish to listen and dare I say it...learn. The indicators from the current regime arent looking very favourable, so good luck to those that wish to instigate change.
Would there be a reaction? I guess some may grumble a bit, but is there any objection from those that live north and west of the Valley that there is no subsidised travel on offer now? I remember writing a, admitedly slightly cheeky, letter to Peter Varney asking for a couple of free Operation Riverside T-Shirts because I'd been to every free away travel match but never been able to use the free travel because I live in the west midlands and the coaches never came anywhere near me. The response was along of the lines of 'tough luck, not my fault you live where you do - we're running a business not a charity'. Put much more diplomatic than that but that was the general gist.
As I say, the idea was one to try and maximise season ticket sales, so it's little out of date now, but if it encouraged people to buy a ticket I'd say it was a good thing, even if i couldn't take advantage of the offer and the idea wouldn't be to put up everyone else's prices to cover the cost, but to cover the cost with additional sales. If you're telling me there is no way we'd generate enough extra reveue by ticket sales alone though, I happily bow to your superior knowledge.
There is also the added value to take into account that a fuller stadium could mean better support and better results, but it's hard to put monetary value on such a thing and even harder for club with our dodgy finances to subsidise right now.
Again, this was meant as an incentive to buy a season ticket rather than buy on a game by game basis. Again, I have no background in doing the costings on something like this, but if you sell more then it helps to cancel out the fact you make less money on each ticket. The club have done something on this by reducing the season ticket prices relative to matchday tickets, but I do feel we ought to be doing something to try and encourage a more numerous away support. It certainly can't help our away form when we have less than 500 fans at the game, although I acept the terrible form and poor attendances are not coincidental.
This is fair comment and just highlights how little I know!
You cover this by putting extra incentives in the season ticket, such as the away tickets and also by keeping matchday prices a bit higher than season ticket prices.
Season ticket holders should always be given a bit of a sweetner for making the upfront commitment, but that doesn't mean you can't do things to entice people who want the freedom of only buying as and when to buy more often. Lets face it, if we're to get 15 to 18K throught the dorrs (like we should be aiming to imo) we'll need almost as many on the day buyers as season ticket holders.
Like I say though, I have very little knowledge of just how these would cost out - if 4 away tickets is too many to give away, make it 2, or make it buy one get one free or something. I'm sure there must be ways to squeeze a few added extras in so that the profit from the added sales would cover the additional costs.
How about a 'bring a friend' voucher in the season ticket, that entitles a guest of a season ticket holder to half price admission once or twice a season and free half time pie or something to try and encourage a few floating football fans into become fully signed up Addicks.
I think this is a great idea Exiled.
And if one fan going regularly on his own gets a bit, shall we say, disillusioned - then he's more likely to continue going to matches if his mate/drinking partner is going also.
It's important to get as many bums on seats at matches, not only for catering/commercial reasons but also for the atmosphere within the stadium.
It must be a bit disheartening for players to play in a stadium like The Valley, with huge gaps in the crowd.
That's true Airman, but then that's the nature of special offers. I might be planning on buying a new telly from Currys anyway, but as luck might have it it may go into the sale at just the right time for me. That doesn't mean Currys don't sell any Tellys to other people purely because of the sale price.
For one match? Sure.
But it's where it might lead.
Lose on the day, the difference between a full price ticket (which may have remained unsold) and the special offer price - or gain the revenue from what may become a life time support plus bringing along eventually their own children, family and friends.
And so it can grow exponentially.
Is there any mileage in doing a deal with Millwall?
Many years ago (well before my time), a lot of fans used to follow Charlton AND Millwall - whoever was playing at home that weekend. On that basis, is there a contra-deal the two clubs could work on? On the basis that Millwall ST holders could get, say, half-a-dozen games at The Valley (and vice versa). The cost would only be the opportunity cost of those potential East, West or Covered End seats (that otherwise would have been left unsold). And I am sure that Charlton could convert, say one in ten of those freebies into regular fans.
I know it goes against the grain to try to promote our club to another club's fans. But wouldn't it be better to have a seat occupied by an ex-Millwall (or Gilliingham, or Palace) fan now supporting Charlton, than another empty seat?