Not surprised advance sales were low - there was very little promotion of prices, how to buy etc. I reckon a lot of lapsed S/T holders would have turned out for first match of the new season (as we did). Got there at 2pm, only queued a few mins, but by the time we'd got ours, the length of queue had doubled and just got longer and longer. Club should do more to encourage pre-purchase, as otherwise it does look unprofessional and could deter casual walk-ups.
And why are North Lower seats £25? Can't imagine anyone paying £8 more for this compared to North Upper?
Sat in West Upper ourselves - great view, good atmosphere. I was maybe a bit loud yelling at the ref when Bailey nearly had his leg broken and the ref waved play on...then booked him for winning the ball cleanly a few minutes later...reckon the ref could hear me from there, though, unlike from the North!
[cite]Posted By: Weegie Addick[/cite]Not surprised advance sales were low - there was very little promotion of prices, how to buy etc.
I can't see this, to be honest. Most former season-ticket holders know how to buy match tickets from cup games; it would only really be people who have never been before who wouldn't know how to buy a ticket and I doubt they made up much of the walk-up.
We do have to focus on season tickets in the run-up to the season, which may acount for the perception that the match prices had a lower online profile than usual, but I don't agree that it was inadequate.
What was missing was the external promotion we've done in the past - mail-outs and advertising - but that's simply because the budget has been cut and to be honest it wasn't proving cost-effective anyway on the volume of sales we were getting.
We will, however, be doing targeted email marketing and some advertising where we have been able to cut deals.
A lot of clubs operate different prices on matchdays to encourage advance purchase - I can pretty much guarantee that if that was done at Charlton it would mean higher prices than the current ones if you buy on the day rather than reductions in advance, which is why I am against it.
I would like to see a blanket £20 adult price anywhere in the Charlton areas as per 2007/08. It seemed to work then and it could do now. Maybe even a £15 adult price across the board, where a loss is made maybe more bums on seats would cover (no pun intended) the drop in revenue and increase the numbers getting behind the boys on matchdays thus creating a more intimidating atmosphere for our opposition and in turn helping to get more points on the board- thus helping the side win promotion back to the CCC and then take that on and win promotion back to the Premier League etc!. Having said that I'm sure Waggo know's what he's doing and has assessed it all to the nth degree, who am I to doubt him.
[cite]Posted By: pilchard[/cite]I would like to see a blanket £20 adult price anywhere in the Charlton areas as per 2007/08. It seemed to work then and it could do now. Maybe even a £15 adult price across the board, where a loss is made maybe more bums on seats would cover (no pun intended) the drop in revenue and increase the numbers getting behind the boys on matchdays thus creating a more intimidating atmosphere for our opposition and in turn helping to get more points on the board- thus helping the side win promotion back to the CCC and then take that on and win promotion back to the Premier League etc!. Having said that I'm sure Waggo know's what he's doing and has assessed it all to the nth degree, who am I to doubt him.
If the club thought £15 would produce more revenue it would do it, simple as that. The evidence is against it, however, and the club needs to secure the revenue that it currently has rather than embark on experiments that might well produce a worse position. You'd have to make a significant cut in adult season-ticket prices. In my view the football on offer is a more significant factor than the price at the present time.
The case around £20 is more debatable, but the board was always going to increase prices in the summer of 2008 so we devised a structure that protected the cheaper tickets, generated more revenue and increased the relative value of season tickets. The alternative was probably a flat rate increase over and above £20.
BTW that pricing had nothing to do with Steve Waggott. It was set while Peter Varney was chief executive.
[cite]Posted By: pilchard[/cite] Having said that I'm sure Waggo know's what he's doing and has assessed it all to the nth degree, who am I to doubt him.
As I remember it it was analysed to the nth degree with copious spreadsheets and alternative scenarios of costs v income etc etc although it was Airman Brown who did most of donkey work on the spreadsheets.
That then went to the Target 40k committee and recommendations were made to the board as to ST and match day prices.
Steve Waggott wouldnt have been involved in the pricing in the summer of 2008 as he wasn't employed by the football club until the middle of the summer 2008.
There really is a lot of thought and debate that goes into the pricing many many months in advance and it's not made on a whim
As Ali says the reason for the higher Lower north matchday price is that it is the equililent to the Jimmy Seed so we can maximise our income/fleece the away fans (delete according to prejudice). The Lower North ST price was the lowest in the ground last season to compensate for this.
[cite]Posted By: AFKABartram[/cite]Airman, am i right in thinking stewards were going down the queue (which snaked from the ticket office back to the road at 2.55), and swapping tickets for cash ?
Thought i was back at Welling !
Yes you are but only in the north lower or west stand at £25 a pop you want cheaper seats you wait or miss the game!!
Was good to see though and certainly not expected.
Airman, my main point was that there was no info re matchday sales on the email bulletins on Mon and even Thu last week. By then I don't think it would be cannibalising S/T sales. In the past tickets for cup matches - availability, prices and how to buy - has been clearly communicated in advance. This didn't happen for the Wycombe match. For me it's the emotional thing too - just because some people haven't renewed S/Ts doesn't mean they won't still be keen to turn up - almost challenging the team to prove them wrong in their decision. The club could do a bit more (at no cost) to encourage them to get down The Valley! It's a whole different ball game on ticket sales now - for both the Club and many supporters. I expected there would be queues and was glad I got there early enough to avoid the big rush. If I'd still been in a queue at 2.55, I'd have been very frustrated. It's just as well we won for those people, or we'd have a much tougher job to persuade them back. Momentum off the pitch this season will be as important as momentum on it. Whilst I completely appreciate that resources are really tight, this should not become an excuse for everything.
Ali, Henry - thanks for the explanation re North Lower.
In my view the football on offer is a more significant factor than the price at the present time...... quote airman brown.
Not quite sure of this perspective as a marketing factor, surely the converted have renewed by now, those of us that have not have to be persuaded, and one of those is by price surely.
One of the strange factors is that to have a half empty ground is in some way better than than a three quaters, or even four fifths ground is in some way more financially better for the club!
Agreed that at what price you of course sell the tickets, but to have a bigger crowd makes the stadium a better place, plus you can exploit the other commercial pursuits, drinks, programmes, and so forth.
I would also add that people like me might just be persuaded to come down more often, with friends and family in the 'habit' of supporting the team, not pick and choose.
You mention the football on offer!...... against Wycombe what 'football was that then'
[cite]Posted By: Weegie Addick[/cite]Airman, my main point was that there was no info re matchday sales on the email bulletins on Mon and even Thu last week. By then I don't think it would be cannibalising S/T sales. In the past tickets for cup matches - availability, prices and how to buy - has been clearly communicated in advance. This didn't happen for the Wycombe match. For me it's the emotional thing too - just because some people haven't renewed S/Ts doesn't mean they won't still be keen to turn up - almost challenging the team to prove them wrong in their decision. The club could do a bit more (at no cost) to encourage them to get down The Valley! It's a whole different ball game on ticket sales now - for both the Club and many supporters. I expected there would be queues and was glad I got there early enough to avoid the big rush. If I'd still been in a queue at 2.55, I'd have been very frustrated. It's just as well we won for those people, or we'd have a much tougher job to persuade them back. Momentum off the pitch this season will be as important as momentum on it. Whilst I completely appreciate that resources are really tight, this should not become an excuse for everything.
Ali, Henry - thanks for the explanation re North Lower.
I don't control what goes in the Bulletin and I accept much of what you say, but I honestly doubt if it was the major factor in the shape of ticket sales for the game.
As I stated Henry, I did not go, so my views were shaped by the radio and the 'highlights' shows. I could not use the word outstanding against a team that I feel was raw, and playing two divisions below us last season, that I feel will struggle in this division. I thought the first half was a good performance until the subs, which as others have commentated on, and IMO added nothing and was in all honesty not needed as the radio presenters also commentated on.
Sorry to state the obvious but hardly the strongest team in this division, I guess it is an idea of perception.
That aside, I notice no reply to the main point of the posting.
Ken, if you read the various comments from people who were at the game many said how well we played.
How you can say you couldn't use the word "outstanding" when you weren't there. Yes, it was "only" Wycombe but you can only play, and beat, the team in front of you.
Football at the Valley is still much cheaper than at many other clubs. £290 for a ST is good value and £49 for kids is a bargain IMHO.
[cite]Posted By: ken from bexley[/cite]I
One of the strange factors is that to have a half empty ground is in some way better than than a three quaters, or even four fifths ground is in some way more financially better for the club!
My view is that season ticket holders should get some significant financial benefit for forking out up front when the vagaries of Sky etc may well mean that they end up missing matches.
It must also assist the club in budgeting as season ticket revenue is absolute as opposed to speculative.
If it is perceived that the value is as good or better even to buy on the day or in the run up to the match people will be less disposed to commit to season tickets in my opinion, especially if funds are tight.
EDIT: to say that I think the Club has the balance about right at the moment.
As I stated I was not there but the radio were , at no time did they use the word outstanding, Charlton in command yes!, Charlton in control yes, I am simply commenting what was stated on the radio!, along with many other commentators thought that Burton coming off was a mistake. I do not believe that Wycombe will be in the top half of this league, in fact I think they will be in the bottom 6. Agree that you can only beat what is front of you, but what was in front of you was not a strong team IMO.
Simple economics re bums on seats: 10 @ £10 = £100 15 @£8=£120. so 20 percent better off. plus the other sales, that I spoke about, remember this is a posting about guessing the crowd, not about team performance.
I agree with you about the kids ST's great value, good marketing which was really the point of my posting, NOT to have a go at the team mate.
As I stated, from the radio good first half,which I have stated elsewhere on this site..... let us keep it up, me and others may be tempted to stump up for a season ticket.
Your original comment suggested that the quality of the football v Wycombe wasn't an attraction for people to return.
IMHO it was.
[cite]Posted By: ken from bexley[/cite]
Simple economics re bums on seats: 10 @ £10 = £100 15 @£8=£120. so 20 percent better off. plus the other sales, that I spoke about, remember this is a posting about guessing the crowd, not about team performance.
or 3 @ £50 = £150. The other sales (food, programmes etc have been calculated by the good Airman as part of his job as Club Development Manager to average out at £1 per head.
The policy of the Target 40k committee has been for some time to maximise income while keeping attendance levels up. So we have avoided the temptation to increase prices hugely as at QPR as it was felt that it doesn't actually deliver the desired increased income plus it deters casual buyers who are the ST holders of the future.
Whether the T40k committee gets it right is another question but there is a lot of time, effort and argument over the right price to both maximise income and get as many bodies in as possible.
All I'm saying is that the club is well aware of the arguments you are making as it has spent a lot of time studying trends, average walk up, the effect of prices increases in different parts of the ground etc, etc. I get the impression, perhaps wrongly, that you think it has never realised that 15 people might generate more income than 10. It has but lowering the price also has the risk of not attracting more people and so leaving you out of pocket.
The one big factor that puts bums on seats at the Valley and pretty much any other stadium is success on the pitch but that is the one thing Target 40k and the admin side of the club have no control over.
[cite]Posted By: pilchard[/cite]I would like to see a blanket £20 adult price anywhere in the Charlton areas as per 2007/08. It seemed to work then and it could do now. Maybe even a £15 adult price across the board, where a loss is made maybe more bums on seats would cover (no pun intended) the drop in revenue and increase the numbers getting behind the boys on matchdays thus creating a more intimidating atmosphere for our opposition and in turn helping to get more points on the board- thus helping the side win promotion back to the CCC and then take that on and win promotion back to the Premier League etc!. Having said that I'm sure Waggo know's what he's doing and has assessed it all to the nth degree, who am I to doubt him.
If the club thought £15 would produce more revenue it would do it, simple as that. The evidence is against it, however, and the club needs to secure the revenue that it currently has rather than embark on experiments that might well produce a worse position. You'd have to make a significant cut in adult season-ticket prices. In my view the football on offer is a more significant factor than the price at the present time.
The case around £20 is more debatable, but the board was always going to increase prices in the summer of 2008 so we devised a structure that protected the cheaper tickets, generated more revenue and increased the relative value of season tickets. The alternative was probably a flat rate increase over and above £20.
BTW that pricing had nothing to do with Steve Waggott. It was set while Peter Varney was chief executive.
Thank's Airman for the detailed response, fair play to you sir. I must say that I did prefer the £20 anywhere idea but I understand the points you make given your close proximity to the club and bow to your superior internal knowledge on the matter. Sorry for crediting Waggo with Varney's idea, it's hard to believe that he hasnt been here as long as I think he has!!
Your original comment suggested that the quality of the football v Wycombe wasn't an attraction for people to return.
IMHO it was........ and yes 16,000 agreed with you.
My point was that others like myself had not, price as it happens was not the main principle for myself, and wanted to hear the game on the radio for other reasons, that aside as I am sure you are more than aware that is the issue that the club has to address this season, hopefully s you state a winning team will be a key issue in this, and get some of us more reluctant one's to get down there, as I will do in the near future.
Comments
And why are North Lower seats £25? Can't imagine anyone paying £8 more for this compared to North Upper?
Sat in West Upper ourselves - great view, good atmosphere. I was maybe a bit loud yelling at the ref when Bailey nearly had his leg broken and the ref waved play on...then booked him for winning the ball cleanly a few minutes later...reckon the ref could hear me from there, though, unlike from the North!
I can't see this, to be honest. Most former season-ticket holders know how to buy match tickets from cup games; it would only really be people who have never been before who wouldn't know how to buy a ticket and I doubt they made up much of the walk-up.
We do have to focus on season tickets in the run-up to the season, which may acount for the perception that the match prices had a lower online profile than usual, but I don't agree that it was inadequate.
What was missing was the external promotion we've done in the past - mail-outs and advertising - but that's simply because the budget has been cut and to be honest it wasn't proving cost-effective anyway on the volume of sales we were getting.
We will, however, be doing targeted email marketing and some advertising where we have been able to cut deals.
A lot of clubs operate different prices on matchdays to encourage advance purchase - I can pretty much guarantee that if that was done at Charlton it would mean higher prices than the current ones if you buy on the day rather than reductions in advance, which is why I am against it.
Indeed
If the club thought £15 would produce more revenue it would do it, simple as that. The evidence is against it, however, and the club needs to secure the revenue that it currently has rather than embark on experiments that might well produce a worse position. You'd have to make a significant cut in adult season-ticket prices. In my view the football on offer is a more significant factor than the price at the present time.
The case around £20 is more debatable, but the board was always going to increase prices in the summer of 2008 so we devised a structure that protected the cheaper tickets, generated more revenue and increased the relative value of season tickets. The alternative was probably a flat rate increase over and above £20.
BTW that pricing had nothing to do with Steve Waggott. It was set while Peter Varney was chief executive.
As I remember it it was analysed to the nth degree with copious spreadsheets and alternative scenarios of costs v income etc etc although it was Airman Brown who did most of donkey work on the spreadsheets.
That then went to the Target 40k committee and recommendations were made to the board as to ST and match day prices.
Steve Waggott wouldnt have been involved in the pricing in the summer of 2008 as he wasn't employed by the football club until the middle of the summer 2008.
There really is a lot of thought and debate that goes into the pricing many many months in advance and it's not made on a whim
As Ali says the reason for the higher Lower north matchday price is that it is the equililent to the Jimmy Seed so we can maximise our income/fleece the away fans (delete according to prejudice). The Lower North ST price was the lowest in the ground last season to compensate for this.
It slows down admission, so the safety people wouldn't allow it. It's also less secure.
Yes you are but only in the north lower or west stand at £25 a pop you want cheaper seats you wait or miss the game!!
Was good to see though and certainly not expected.
Ali, Henry - thanks for the explanation re North Lower.
Not quite sure of this perspective as a marketing factor, surely the converted have renewed by now, those of us that have not have to be persuaded, and one of those is by price surely.
One of the strange factors is that to have a half empty ground is in some way better than than a three quaters, or even four fifths ground is in some way more financially better for the club!
Agreed that at what price you of course sell the tickets, but to have a bigger crowd makes the stadium a better place, plus you can exploit the other commercial pursuits, drinks, programmes, and so forth.
I would also add that people like me might just be persuaded to come down more often, with friends and family in the 'habit' of supporting the team, not pick and choose.
You mention the football on offer!...... against Wycombe what 'football was that then'
I don't control what goes in the Bulletin and I accept much of what you say, but I honestly doubt if it was the major factor in the shape of ticket sales for the game.
Some quite outstanding football from us in the first half IMHO and quite a bit of the 2nd as well.
I could not use the word outstanding against a team that I feel was raw, and playing two divisions below us last season, that I feel will struggle in this division.
I thought the first half was a good performance until the subs, which as others have commentated on, and IMO added nothing and was in all honesty not needed as the radio presenters also commentated on.
Sorry to state the obvious but hardly the strongest team in this division, I guess it is an idea of perception.
That aside, I notice no reply to the main point of the posting.
How you can say you couldn't use the word "outstanding" when you weren't there. Yes, it was "only" Wycombe but you can only play, and beat, the team in front of you.
Football at the Valley is still much cheaper than at many other clubs. £290 for a ST is good value and £49 for kids is a bargain IMHO.
Sorry, not sure what this means
It must also assist the club in budgeting as season ticket revenue is absolute as opposed to speculative.
If it is perceived that the value is as good or better even to buy on the day or in the run up to the match people will be less disposed to commit to season tickets in my opinion, especially if funds are tight.
EDIT: to say that I think the Club has the balance about right at the moment.
Simple economics re bums on seats: 10 @ £10 = £100 15 @£8=£120. so 20 percent better off. plus the other sales, that I spoke about, remember this is a posting about guessing the crowd, not about team performance.
I agree with you about the kids ST's great value, good marketing which was really the point of my posting, NOT to have a go at the team mate.
As I stated, from the radio good first half,which I have stated elsewhere on this site..... let us keep it up, me and others may be tempted to stump up for a season ticket.
IMHO it was.
or 3 @ £50 = £150. The other sales (food, programmes etc have been calculated by the good Airman as part of his job as Club Development Manager to average out at £1 per head.
The policy of the Target 40k committee has been for some time to maximise income while keeping attendance levels up. So we have avoided the temptation to increase prices hugely as at QPR as it was felt that it doesn't actually deliver the desired increased income plus it deters casual buyers who are the ST holders of the future.
Whether the T40k committee gets it right is another question but there is a lot of time, effort and argument over the right price to both maximise income and get as many bodies in as possible.
All I'm saying is that the club is well aware of the arguments you are making as it has spent a lot of time studying trends, average walk up, the effect of prices increases in different parts of the ground etc, etc. I get the impression, perhaps wrongly, that you think it has never realised that 15 people might generate more income than 10. It has but lowering the price also has the risk of not attracting more people and so leaving you out of pocket.
The one big factor that puts bums on seats at the Valley and pretty much any other stadium is success on the pitch but that is the one thing Target 40k and the admin side of the club have no control over.
Thank's Airman for the detailed response, fair play to you sir. I must say that I did prefer the £20 anywhere idea but I understand the points you make given your close proximity to the club and bow to your superior internal knowledge on the matter. Sorry for crediting Waggo with Varney's idea, it's hard to believe that he hasnt been here as long as I think he has!!
IMHO it was........ and yes 16,000 agreed with you.
My point was that others like myself had not, price as it happens was not the main principle for myself, and wanted to hear the game on the radio for other reasons, that aside as I am sure you are more than aware that is the issue that the club has to address this season, hopefully s you state a winning team will be a key issue in this, and get some of us more reluctant one's to get down there, as I will do in the near future.