I've been following this story with interest for some time and the more I look at it the more it looks like a cack handed smear attempt.
If any of the Palace fans were ejected in the manner that they suggested then good luck to them in getting a result. However, having travelled down on a train full of Palace fans from London Bridge I would guess that what actually happened was that they turned up just before kick off (Despite numerous appeals for fans to turn up early), slightly pissed and strangely excited to be playing their confirmed non rivals. They then became frustrated as they were held in the train station whilst the streets were cleared (for their own safety) and became further frustrated as they were delayed by the searches at the turnstiles. By the time they reached the line of stewards they unwisely gobbed off and were removed.
Interestingly this is very similar to my experience at the Selhurst Park game, the difference is that I had the good sense to try and disguise my advanced state of intoxication and be polite to the stewards despite missing the first fifteen minutes of the game whilst they searched people.
For me the whole saga just seems like Palace bulls**t and should be filed in the same place as the infamous 'Nigel Soretoes' incident.
I feel that the robust approach of some stewarding is regrettable but when you read the context and the police advice, it is sometimes necessary.
I contrast the approach taken at the Palarse game with that taken by stewards at the Southampton game. Despite there being "previous" between the two clubs and of course despite the fact that 99% of Saints fans were friendly, there was an "edge" at the game. The stewards that I encountered were really friendly and helpful, clearly under orders. That didn't stop sporadic fighting breaking out during the game due to poor segregation, and a real ugly scene develope outside the ground. So maybe there was a case there for a more robust approach. As a punter, I would probably have felt aggrieved if I'd been held back or searched before the game but I can see how sometimes it's necessary, especially if intelligence pointed to something going off.
1. That some of our stewards are bullies. Something we knew already, and something our club is not alone in.
2. That you know when entering a ground and you're confronted with jobsworth bullies, you keep your trap shut for 30 seconds. I don't give a bouncer grief when going in a pub / club, because i know what the outcome will be. Get stroppy / sarcastic / lairy and there is only likely to be one outcome.
3. That you're hardly likely to get the outcome you want when you ridiculously start chucking 'Hillsborough' stuff into your argument.
4. That the Football league are poor at responding to correspondance.
5. That Palace's Football Intelligence Officer Dolans has come across as a debatable character. Despite not being present at the ground, he was 'outraged' by the treatment of Palace fans and encouraged them to continue their complaints. He also incorrectly stated at a public meeting that he was banned from the Valley (not true) and that there had been stabbings at the previous game (also not true). Hardly the behaviour of someone whose remit is to control crowd behaviour.
Glad the club got cleared, but if it equally means that the Belmarsh Bullies get reigned in a little, then no bad thing
[cite]Posted By: AFKABartram[/cite]things that stand out for me in this incident:
5. That Palace's Football Intelligence Officer Dolans has come across as a debatable character. Despite not being present at the ground, he was 'outraged' by the treatment of Palace fans and encouraged them to continue their complaints. He also incorrectly stated at a public meeting that he was banned from the Valley (not true) and that there had been stabbings at the previous game (also not true). Hardly the behaviour of someone whose remit is to control crowd behaviour.
Dolans has denied "that he said anything and that what he did say (sic) was misquoted"
Would be interesting to hear what PISA are saying now that Dolan is washing his hands of them. Do they stick by what they said he said or do they admit that they made it up?
[cite]Posted By: AFKABartram[/cite]things that stand out for me in this incident:
5. That Palace's Football Intelligence Officer Dolans has come across as a debatable character. Despite not being present at the ground, he was 'outraged' by the treatment of Palace fans and encouraged them to continue their complaints. He also incorrectly stated at a public meeting that he was banned from the Valley (not true) and that there had been stabbings at the previous game (also not true). Hardly the behaviour of someone whose remit is to control crowd behaviour.
Dolans has denied "that he said anything and that what he did say (sic) was misquoted"
Would be interesting to hear what PISA are saying now that Dolan is washing his hands of them. Do they stick by what they said he said or do they admit that they made it up?
I'm inclined to believe PISA on this, they may be amateurish but I can't imagine them making up this in its entirety.
Dolans sounds like he is well out of his depth and is desperately trying to save his job by backtracking. I would imagine his commanding officers are less than impressed with his behavior as his criticism by association encompasses the Police operation itself. Quite what his motives are for sensationalising this and the events at Selhurst Park I can only guess.
I'm with Seth on this one. I am a bit alarmed that it is so slow to get into our away end. When I go to Millwall next March, i will be jumpy and nervous and won't want to be held up for ages outside the ground. Mind you I will plan to be there half an hour early! However, it seems we probably need more open turnstiles for the derby /high profile games. I always hate being searched by the stewards/cops at away grounds. I am Charlton for gawds sake! But it is pointless giving the stewards verbals even if they are over the top. I recall an Everton steward being overly aggressive for no reason at all but having driven up from London i was not going to get myself slung out by having a go at him. Indeed it seems as if the nigel was a numpty in this case for not complying with the steward. Sounds as if he arrived at the ground with anger at us and it soon spilled over. From his point of view, he missed a really crap palace performance, so all was not bad. He would have been even angrier if he had actually seen the game!
[cite]Posted By: (1984)[/cite]
Quite what his motives are for sensationalising this and the events at Selhurst Park I can only guess.
this is what Dorans was reported as saying at the Palace Trust AGM:
Q What happened at Charlton Away last Season and can anything be done about it?
A. Mike was not at the ground and he said that on reflection he was sorry that he was in the main operations room and not there. He said that in future he would ensure that he was at the ground and able to intervene if necessary. He had made many representations about what had gone on but it had reached the stage where he as a Police Officer could not take things any further. He was extremely unhappy with the reported actions of the Charlton stewards. He confirmed that the Head of Security was the Assistant Governor at Belmarsh and that many of the stewards were prison officers. He has raised the high level of ejections at the Police Liaison Officers conference for Championship clubs and will raise it again at the National Conference as Charlton have a higher rate of ejections for all matches and not just Palace.
It would seem that things went very wrong on the night and that the stewards have used the many ground regulations to try and justify their actions. It is now down to the Ombudsman to deal with those fans that have taken their complaints all the way. Mike said he had tried to encourage others who were ejected to take things further but many did not want to. He also mentioned that he was officially banned from the Valley as due to his questioning of the stewards behaviour and requests for information he was told he would not be admitted.
Q. Why were there problems with crowd dispersal at Charlton at Home last season?
A. There had been police at Norwood Junction station but they had left to deal with a stabbing incident actually outside the Police Station as a result of a fight between Palace and Charlton fans. That was seen as more important than ensuring that there were no delays at the station. Charlton fans had not been kept in the ground as at the last home match they had carried out some £30,000 worth of damage to the Arthur Wait stand when they were kept back. The club had asked if they could be let go as soon as possible and the police had allowed that to happen.
++++
So it has later turned out that he is not banned from the Valley, no did any stabbings take place. I also know for a fact that we were not held back in the game he referred to as i was there, and know we weren't, so i attach extreme doubt to the £30k worth of damage. The man seems to live in a bit of a fantasy world.
Addickted - Palace like Charlton have a number of intelligence/liason officers. There were some Palace fio's present in and around the ground with Charlton ones.
[cite]Posted By: AFKABartram[/cite]things that stand out for me in this incident:
5. That Palace's Football Intelligence Officer Dolans has come across as a debatable character. Despite not being present at the ground, he was 'outraged' by the treatment of Palace fans and encouraged them to continue their complaints. He also incorrectly stated at a public meeting that he was banned from the Valley (not true) and that there had been stabbings at the previous game (also not true). Hardly the behaviour of someone whose remit is to control crowd behaviour.
Dolans has denied "that he said anything and that what he did say (sic) was misquoted"
Would be interesting to hear what PISA are saying now that Dolan is washing his hands of them. Do they stick by what they said he said or do they admit that they made it up?
I don't personally know PC Dolans, but I do know that he isn't particularly held in high esteem by the Palace supporters that do know him, and his evidence and comments do seem to be strange, as there do seem to be some inaccuracies in them.
As for the outcome of the investigation, I do feel that things have been swept under the carpet, but it does appear that the Palace fans with the real grievances such as the disabled one didn't follow up with official complaints, so as has been said, the treatment investigated was no worse than seen at most games up and down the country.
How have Charlton swept anything under the carpet? They were complimented for giving their full cooperation.
Perhaps the disabled supporter didn't follow up as the evidence against him would have shown him in a very very poor light if it had become public. Allegedly.
Perhaps if the Palace fans had taken the searches with some stoic humour rather than getting stroppy because THEY arrived late for a publicised football match; then none of this would have happened.
If the Palace fans still in the pubs at London Bridge had 'phoned our Operations Director, he would have delayed the kick off to ensure they all arrived in time to see the Charlton goal.
[cite]Posted By: Henry Irving[/cite]How have Charlton swept anything under the carpet? They were complimented for giving their full cooperation.
Perhaps the disabled supporter didn't follow up as the evidence against him would have shown him in a very very poor light if it had become public. Allegedly.
Probably a poor way of expressing myself, as you say Charlton didn't sweep anything under the carpet, as it wasn't there investigation.
With regards to the disabled supporter, you may be correct, but in this instance, personally I will believe the Palace version, but its all down to opinions.
Addicted, I'm not sure that all the people who were ejected were late comers, however those that were should as you say have kept quiet, and made sure they got in first.
[cite]Posted By: Ketman[/cite]Any chance we could get this Thread up to 100+ Posts as my Dad wanted to have a look through this thread when he gets back from Devon later this week.
Damned decent of the Obudsman to lend him his holiday cottage.
This whole episode seems a combination of regrettably necessary robust stewarding (in accordance with Police intelligence and carried out under the noses of the boys in blue) and a few sad but understandably antagonistic Palace fans who, given recent events, were bound to to over-react to the stewarding approach. Such over reaction giving those responsible an easy excuse for ejection.
For me I long for days where fans, even fierce rivals, can mingle before and after games, have access to an from the ground without the need for zero-tolerance/cattle herding stewarding. The softly-softly stewarding approach we saw at Southampton didn't result in a fans love in and maybe led to the scenes during and especially after the game. Rather than blaming the stewarding, maybe some fans need to look at their own behaviour which on occasions borders on the beligerent tribalism that leads to banter spilling over into violence. Maybe those days have gone but I wish they were still with us.
Seems that they're now turning their attention to their own stewards. Perhaps they should try the Ombudsman?
Palace fans to protest at Selhurst Park
Crystal Palace fans have become so fed up with heavy-handed stewarding and high ticket prices they are planning the biggest protest at the club for ten years.
It is estimated more than 200 people will take part in the march on November 28 that will culminate in the handing over of a petition to chairman Simon Jordan urging him to change the stewarding and stop cracking down on groups such as the Holmesdale Fanatics that sit in Block B in the Holmesdale stand.
During Saturday's 1-1 draw with Middlesbrough, seven fans were ejected from the area by Police and stewards and Mike Grafton, organiser of the petition, said enough was enough.
"On Saturday they just looked intent on throwing people out for no reason at all," he said.
"Seven young fans were manhandled and bruised and one of them had seven different policeman on him.
"The stewards should be there to protect us but they are treating the fans with contempt.
"That area is the most hardcore and you are likely to get a swear word or two but that doesn't warrant the police bruising young fans.
"We have started the petition to call on Jordan to change the policing and stewarding and be more respectful to fans as young people are being alienated by the way they are being treated by stewards.
"We are looking to present this in person and ask for a change."
Jordan recently criticised Palace fans for the low attendances at games and claimed the club needed more support if it was to succeed, but Mr Grafton was less than impressed.
"I thought his comments were pathetic and he is out of touch with the fans," he said.
"There are a few reasons why fans are staying away with stewarding, policing and prices the main three.
"They issued a life ban to someone and bans to the other six at a time when Jordan is talking about needing better attendance figures but they have just gone and alienated seven fans."
Mr Grafton also said he would be happy to see Caterham-based businessman David Gold launch a takeover of the club.
"He is a local lad who has his head screwed on and he would be a good chairman.
The petition can be viewed at petitiononline.com.
I was told recently by someone who would know that Police Officers who do games at the Valley hate doing games at Selhurst as they view it as totally disorganised with no planing or clear instructions for staff.
[cite]Posted By: Addickted[/cite]groups such as the WeThinkWeAreAmazingByMimickingEuropeanUltraGroupsButWeAreActuallyJustIncrediblySadFuckwits that sit in Block B in the Holmesdale stand
Comments
If any of the Palace fans were ejected in the manner that they suggested then good luck to them in getting a result. However, having travelled down on a train full of Palace fans from London Bridge I would guess that what actually happened was that they turned up just before kick off (Despite numerous appeals for fans to turn up early), slightly pissed and strangely excited to be playing their confirmed non rivals. They then became frustrated as they were held in the train station whilst the streets were cleared (for their own safety) and became further frustrated as they were delayed by the searches at the turnstiles. By the time they reached the line of stewards they unwisely gobbed off and were removed.
Interestingly this is very similar to my experience at the Selhurst Park game, the difference is that I had the good sense to try and disguise my advanced state of intoxication and be polite to the stewards despite missing the first fifteen minutes of the game whilst they searched people.
For me the whole saga just seems like Palace bulls**t and should be filed in the same place as the infamous 'Nigel Soretoes' incident.
I contrast the approach taken at the Palarse game with that taken by stewards at the Southampton game. Despite there being "previous" between the two clubs and of course despite the fact that 99% of Saints fans were friendly, there was an "edge" at the game. The stewards that I encountered were really friendly and helpful, clearly under orders. That didn't stop sporadic fighting breaking out during the game due to poor segregation, and a real ugly scene develope outside the ground. So maybe there was a case there for a more robust approach. As a punter, I would probably have felt aggrieved if I'd been held back or searched before the game but I can see how sometimes it's necessary, especially if intelligence pointed to something going off.
1. That some of our stewards are bullies. Something we knew already, and something our club is not alone in.
2. That you know when entering a ground and you're confronted with jobsworth bullies, you keep your trap shut for 30 seconds. I don't give a bouncer grief when going in a pub / club, because i know what the outcome will be. Get stroppy / sarcastic / lairy and there is only likely to be one outcome.
3. That you're hardly likely to get the outcome you want when you ridiculously start chucking 'Hillsborough' stuff into your argument.
4. That the Football league are poor at responding to correspondance.
5. That Palace's Football Intelligence Officer Dolans has come across as a debatable character. Despite not being present at the ground, he was 'outraged' by the treatment of Palace fans and encouraged them to continue their complaints. He also incorrectly stated at a public meeting that he was banned from the Valley (not true) and that there had been stabbings at the previous game (also not true). Hardly the behaviour of someone whose remit is to control crowd behaviour.
Glad the club got cleared, but if it equally means that the Belmarsh Bullies get reigned in a little, then no bad thing
Also, PISA at one stage were demanding a refund for every Palace fan ejected, regardless of the circumstances!
Dolans has denied "that he said anything and that what he did say (sic) was misquoted"
Would be interesting to hear what PISA are saying now that Dolan is washing his hands of them. Do they stick by what they said he said or do they admit that they made it up?
Spray em with silly string that works!
I'm inclined to believe PISA on this, they may be amateurish but I can't imagine them making up this in its entirety.
Dolans sounds like he is well out of his depth and is desperately trying to save his job by backtracking. I would imagine his commanding officers are less than impressed with his behavior as his criticism by association encompasses the Police operation itself. Quite what his motives are for sensationalising this and the events at Selhurst Park I can only guess.
Flyingheadbutt, interesting name, reminds me of the cctv footage...
I am a bit alarmed that it is so slow to get into our away end. When I go to Millwall next March, i will be jumpy and nervous and won't want to be held up for ages outside the ground. Mind you I will plan to be there half an hour early!
However, it seems we probably need more open turnstiles for the derby /high profile games.
I always hate being searched by the stewards/cops at away grounds. I am Charlton for gawds sake! But it is pointless giving the stewards verbals even if they are over the top. I recall an Everton steward being overly aggressive for no reason at all but having driven up from London i was not going to get myself slung out by having a go at him. Indeed it seems as if the nigel was a numpty in this case for not complying with the steward. Sounds as if he arrived at the ground with anger at us and it soon spilled over. From his point of view, he missed a really crap palace performance, so all was not bad. He would have been even angrier if he had actually seen the game!
this is what Dorans was reported as saying at the Palace Trust AGM:
Q What happened at Charlton Away last Season and can anything be done about it?
A. Mike was not at the ground and he said that on reflection he was sorry that he was in the main operations room and not there. He said that in future he would ensure that he was at the ground and able to intervene if necessary. He had made many representations about what had gone on but it had reached the stage where he as a Police Officer could not take things any further. He was extremely unhappy with the reported actions of the Charlton stewards. He confirmed that the Head of Security was the Assistant Governor at Belmarsh and that many of the stewards were prison officers. He has raised the high level of ejections at the Police Liaison Officers conference for Championship clubs and will raise it again at the National Conference as Charlton have a higher rate of ejections for all matches and not just Palace.
It would seem that things went very wrong on the night and that the stewards have used the many ground regulations to try and justify their actions. It is now down to the Ombudsman to deal with those fans that have taken their complaints all the way. Mike said he had tried to encourage others who were ejected to take things further but many did not want to. He also mentioned that he was officially banned from the Valley as due to his questioning of the stewards behaviour and requests for information he was told he would not be admitted.
Q. Why were there problems with crowd dispersal at Charlton at Home last season?
A. There had been police at Norwood Junction station but they had left to deal with a stabbing incident actually outside the Police Station as a result of a fight between Palace and Charlton fans. That was seen as more important than ensuring that there were no delays at the station. Charlton fans had not been kept in the ground as at the last home match they had carried out some £30,000 worth of damage to the Arthur Wait stand when they were kept back. The club had asked if they could be let go as soon as possible and the police had allowed that to happen.
++++
So it has later turned out that he is not banned from the Valley, no did any stabbings take place. I also know for a fact that we were not held back in the game he referred to as i was there, and know we weren't, so i attach extreme doubt to the £30k worth of damage. The man seems to live in a bit of a fantasy world.
Perhaps we could make a polite enquiry of him about his actions and quoted remarks.
I don't personally know PC Dolans, but I do know that he isn't particularly held in high esteem by the Palace supporters that do know him, and his evidence and comments do seem to be strange, as there do seem to be some inaccuracies in them.
As for the outcome of the investigation, I do feel that things have been swept under the carpet, but it does appear that the Palace fans with the real grievances such as the disabled one didn't follow up with official complaints, so as has been said, the treatment investigated was no worse than seen at most games up and down the country.
Perhaps the disabled supporter didn't follow up as the evidence against him would have shown him in a very very poor light if it had become public. Allegedly.
If the Palace fans still in the pubs at London Bridge had 'phoned our Operations Director, he would have delayed the kick off to ensure they all arrived in time to see the Charlton goal.
Probably a poor way of expressing myself, as you say Charlton didn't sweep anything under the carpet, as it wasn't there investigation.
With regards to the disabled supporter, you may be correct, but in this instance, personally I will believe the Palace version, but its all down to opinions.
Addicted, I'm not sure that all the people who were ejected were late comers, however those that were should as you say have kept quiet, and made sure they got in first.
And there you have it. The bloke wasn't there and appears to have accepted the reports of a bunch of disgruntled Palace fans.
Damned decent of the Obudsman to lend him his holiday cottage.
For me I long for days where fans, even fierce rivals, can mingle before and after games, have access to an from the ground without the need for zero-tolerance/cattle herding stewarding. The softly-softly stewarding approach we saw at Southampton didn't result in a fans love in and maybe led to the scenes during and especially after the game. Rather than blaming the stewarding, maybe some fans need to look at their own behaviour which on occasions borders on the beligerent tribalism that leads to banter spilling over into violence. Maybe those days have gone but I wish they were still with us.
Fair enough!
Palace fans to protest at Selhurst Park
Crystal Palace fans have become so fed up with heavy-handed stewarding and high ticket prices they are planning the biggest protest at the club for ten years.
It is estimated more than 200 people will take part in the march on November 28 that will culminate in the handing over of a petition to chairman Simon Jordan urging him to change the stewarding and stop cracking down on groups such as the Holmesdale Fanatics that sit in Block B in the Holmesdale stand.
During Saturday's 1-1 draw with Middlesbrough, seven fans were ejected from the area by Police and stewards and Mike Grafton, organiser of the petition, said enough was enough.
"On Saturday they just looked intent on throwing people out for no reason at all," he said.
"Seven young fans were manhandled and bruised and one of them had seven different policeman on him.
"The stewards should be there to protect us but they are treating the fans with contempt.
"That area is the most hardcore and you are likely to get a swear word or two but that doesn't warrant the police bruising young fans.
"We have started the petition to call on Jordan to change the policing and stewarding and be more respectful to fans as young people are being alienated by the way they are being treated by stewards.
"We are looking to present this in person and ask for a change."
Jordan recently criticised Palace fans for the low attendances at games and claimed the club needed more support if it was to succeed, but Mr Grafton was less than impressed.
"I thought his comments were pathetic and he is out of touch with the fans," he said.
"There are a few reasons why fans are staying away with stewarding, policing and prices the main three.
"They issued a life ban to someone and bans to the other six at a time when Jordan is talking about needing better attendance figures but they have just gone and alienated seven fans."
Mr Grafton also said he would be happy to see Caterham-based businessman David Gold launch a takeover of the club.
"He is a local lad who has his head screwed on and he would be a good chairman.
The petition can be viewed at petitiononline.com.
Typical daft Nigel talk. Can't see this protest last more than three years max.