Terrible incident, lessons should be learned. Councils should go back to having proper caretakers who knew the building & local residents rather than CCTV & Helplines?
I'm a firefighter and was at the incident,one of the worst ive been to in the 17 years ive been in the job. All of us that were there worked so hard to get everyone out but it was impossible to reach some in time,gutted. Brings it home when babies and children die,not nice. RIP.
[cite]Posted By: Redvalleyeast[/cite]I'm a firefighter and was at the incident,one of the worst ive been to in the 17 years ive been in the job. All of us that were there worked so hard to get everyone out but it was impossible to reach some in time,gutted. Brings it home when babies and children die,not nice. RIP.
Fires in flats must be a firefighter's nightmare what with all those corriedors, balconies, lift shafts and stairwells scattered all over the place, all potential areas for providing oxygen to help keep the fire going...
Don't know if they do or not but I think these type of premises ought to have regular compulsory fire drills and evacuations so people know what to do in such a crisis...
I am led to believe that the first 3 people who were rescued were by Ambulance crews. It must have been a real nightmare. The LAS sent 16 Ambulances (and 8 officers) when the service is struggling to cope with typical Friday evening calls. I take my hat off to everybody involved, well done for a good job, well done.
A very unusual type of fire in that it spread through a block of flats that are basicly built of steel and concrete...they think that because so many windows were open(due to the hot weather), that sparks and hot embers flew from one flat to the next and so on.
Tragic in the extreme...........RIP.
RedValleyEast.....a great job you do for us all......hope I never have the need to call you guys out but it's most reassuring to know you're around.
friend of mine is a paramedic and said he was 1st ambulance on the scene.
he's been in the job less than a year and seeing him yesterday was like seeing a different person.
he said he 'lost' 2 people, 1 lady and the baby. he also 'brought back' 1 person.
up until this incident he was looking to leave his job, but even though 'losing' the 2 people, reviving 1 has persuaded him to stay on.
also, he couldn't praise the firemen enough.
I watched the fire almost from the moment it started. I am staying with my parents who live in full view of the flats in question. I watched the fire travel from one flat to another and as well as the fact there's only one proper exit, I would also be concerned about the construction, and there are several similar buildings around: prefabricated burning partitions wer just falling to the ground, causing the lower flats to catch fire, whereas brick or concrete frontages would not have caused the same problem.
Redvalleyeast, you may be able to answer this either as a whisper or generally, but there seemed to be major water pressure problems. The water didn't reach the higher parts of the building where the fire was at its most fierce and where the people sadly died. It was perhaps two hours later when the high pressure hose and cherry-picker was used. I am sure you guys were doing your best but this is what concerned us and many other local residents.
Often in these buildings you never know what ur living above below etc. It could be the bag lady/man whose flat is stuffed from top to bottom with 1,000s of magazines or maybe someone hasnt paid the elec or gas bill and is cooking on calor gas stoves. These days buildings have to have a Fire Risk Assessment and much is about "means of escape" . Which is totaly f**ked if little johny has padlocked his bike to the fire exit door or someone has just left bin bags in front of it.
Redvalleyeast, may I sympathise, it must have been very very hard for you, and for all of the emergency service folk. It reminds me that there are brave and selfless people in our society who are prepared to tackle the toughest of situations, and i am sure many of us want to thank you for the job you all do. RIP the victims...I lived on Camberwell Road from 1969 to 1972 and know the area pretty well.
Many thanks for all your words of support,they are much appreciated. Bangkokaddick,in answer to your question,our aerial platforms that you saw only reach up 8 floors unfortunately and although our pumps are very powerful,no pump in the world will project water up 11 floors and be effective im afraid. We fought the fires internally floor by floor,using the dry riser systems that are fitted to every high rise building,we supply these with water via our fire engines that are 'plugged' in outside. As you can appreciate,this takes time,especially when fighting fires on many floors,in awful conditions whilst searching every floor for casualties and the air in our tanks only lasts so long in those conditions. There were many difficult obstacles faced by all crews,we fought our way up to the 11th floor where we faced an extremely fierce corridor of fire. We stayed as long as we could trying to get the fire down sufficiently to get to the flats where people were trapped.We had to leave when our warning whistles sounded,meaning we only had minimal air left to get ourselves out so we had to hand the hose etc over to the crew behind us. Every firefighter that came out of that building did so with whistles sounding so that tells you how committed the crews were in trying to get everyone out safely. I personally would like to thank the paramedics and doctors that were in attendance,they were fantastic.
Thanks for the clarification redvalleyeast. I saw the amount of smoke, as well as some fierce flames and know what a tough job it must have been. I'm glad you guys all came out physically unscathed.
I've worked on the fire proofing of many similar blocks to this.
Southwark would have to (by law) ensure that each unit/stairwell/corridor were compartmentalised to prevent the spread of fire. All flats would have had smoke detectors and the building itself would have had a fire alarm sysytem, which should be tested once a week and serviced quarterly. Records of all tests and services are kept by the LA. All fire doors would have self closers and smoke seals on them and the fire doors in the corridors and to protect the stairs (i.e on the means of escape route) would have automatic closers linked to the fire alarm system.
My bet that the fire would have been contained substanially in the one flat that it started IF the self closing internal fire doors had not been wedged open - which EVERYBODY does (and to be honest, you can't blame them). With each unit self contained with a minimum of half an hours fire and smoke protection, the advice is generally to stay in your flat until the emergency services arrive.
Either that or there has been a catastrophic failure in the proceedures and systems of Southwark Council - if this is the case, then whoever is in charge of these service contracts may be facing a prison sentance for corporate manslaughter.
Redvalleyeast, you are the other fireman are true heros, we can't thank you enough.
You say that there isn't a pump capable of getting to 11 floors, but the Petronas Twin Towers were built by having concrete pumped up 80 or so floors. Surely someone should try and resolve that? Obviously not to that extreme but as you said dry risers are always the best solution.
My father was in the London Fire Brigade and eventually rose to a very senior position.
He was firmly of the opinion that high rise flats were death traps for all sorts of reasons. He had personal experience of the Ronan Point Tower Block collapse 40 odd years ago.
He spent a large part of his career battling bureaucrats and politicians, both blue and red, to try and ensure more than one means of escape in blocks of flats or failing that sprinkler systems in each flat at least. He was instrumental in getting the the fire proofing and fire door legislation passed such as it is but always felt that it was not enough and more should and could have been done.
In the end I think he was regarded as a nuisance by some and possibly sacrificed rising even higher in his career to his principles.
Addickted raises valid points re fire doors being wedged open etc which is why alternative means of escape and /or sprinklers would have been useful.
There are many many differant systems that can be used to fight fires at height. Many buildings have Dry Risers, which are a system of pipes that go to every floor from ground level--- u plug the tender in at that level pump water through the dry riser to the floor outlets which is where the hoses by the FB will be plugged in.
There are deluge and drentcher systems which operate the similar to a sprinkler system .
People look at hose reel systems and extingushers within their buildings as their way of fighting fires -------------------------they only work if they are being serviced !
[cite]Posted By: Addickted[/cite]To post fit a sprinkler system into a 1960's 10 storey system built block of flats, with 120 separate units would cost in the region of £350k.
Don't think the leaseholders would be that keen on paying their share.
Agreed.
It should have been done when they were built and should be standard for new builds. That is what my father tried to fight for in blocks of flats with no alternative means of escape.
Cutting costs is more important than human life though in all walks of life.
[cite]Posted By: Addickted[/cite]All new Residential Homes, Schools, Childrens Homes and Hospitals HAVE to have a sprinkler system as part of their design brief.
That's good to know. How long has that been the case?
When you say "Residential Homes" do you mean speciallist homes such as Old peoples' homes or flats for individuals such as the Camberwell block in question if it was built today?
[cite]Posted By: Addickted[/cite]All new Residential Homes, Schools, Childrens Homes and Hospitals HAVE to have a sprinkler system as part of their design brief.
That's good to know. How long has that been the case?
Since the latest Building Regulation changes in 2000, though they theoretically didn't come into affect until 2003 (Hospitals have been deemed to require sprinklers since 1996). The current Part B - Fire Safety of the Building Regulations is a pretty thorough document, so incidents like last weeks should never happen in a new building.
The block that caught fire if built today would NOT require a sprinkler system. I suspect that most of the current fire precaution requirements however would have been post installed - like upgraded addressable fire alarm systems.
Bare in mind that this 50 year old block is one of hundreds throughout the country and a fatal fire is a very rare occurence.
[cite]Posted By: Addickted[/cite]All new Residential Homes, Schools, Childrens Homes and Hospitals HAVE to have a sprinkler system as part of their design brief.
That's good to know. How long has that been the case?
Since the latest Building Regulation changes in 2000, though they theoretically didn't come into affect until 2003 (Hospitals have been deemed to require sprinklers since 1996). The current Part B - Fire Safety of the Building Regulations is a pretty thorough document, so incidents like last weeks should never happen in a new building.
The block that caught fire if built today would NOT require a sprinkler system. I suspect that most of the current fire precaution requirements however would have been post installed - like upgraded addressable fire alarm systems.
Bare in mind that this 50 year old block is one of hundreds throughout the country and a fatal fire is a very rare occurence.
My father would have been pleased to know that some of what he fought for came to fruition.
Regarding Camberwell, as I understand it, one of the problems was that there was only one staircase for escape. Do new builds have to be constructed with more than one means of escape or not?
Comments
You can't blame yourselves though - that fire was awful.
RIP
Don't know if they do or not but I think these type of premises ought to have regular compulsory fire drills and evacuations so people know what to do in such a crisis...
I take my hat off to everybody involved, well done for a good job, well done.
Tragic in the extreme...........RIP.
RedValleyEast.....a great job you do for us all......hope I never have the need to call you guys out but it's most reassuring to know you're around.
Even worse to hear that it may have been started delibertaly.
he's been in the job less than a year and seeing him yesterday was like seeing a different person.
he said he 'lost' 2 people, 1 lady and the baby. he also 'brought back' 1 person.
up until this incident he was looking to leave his job, but even though 'losing' the 2 people, reviving 1 has persuaded him to stay on.
also, he couldn't praise the firemen enough.
Redvalleyeast, you may be able to answer this either as a whisper or generally, but there seemed to be major water pressure problems. The water didn't reach the higher parts of the building where the fire was at its most fierce and where the people sadly died. It was perhaps two hours later when the high pressure hose and cherry-picker was used. I am sure you guys were doing your best but this is what concerned us and many other local residents.
RIP the victims...I lived on Camberwell Road from 1969 to 1972 and know the area pretty well.
Southwark would have to (by law) ensure that each unit/stairwell/corridor were compartmentalised to prevent the spread of fire. All flats would have had smoke detectors and the building itself would have had a fire alarm sysytem, which should be tested once a week and serviced quarterly. Records of all tests and services are kept by the LA. All fire doors would have self closers and smoke seals on them and the fire doors in the corridors and to protect the stairs (i.e on the means of escape route) would have automatic closers linked to the fire alarm system.
My bet that the fire would have been contained substanially in the one flat that it started IF the self closing internal fire doors had not been wedged open - which EVERYBODY does (and to be honest, you can't blame them). With each unit self contained with a minimum of half an hours fire and smoke protection, the advice is generally to stay in your flat until the emergency services arrive.
Either that or there has been a catastrophic failure in the proceedures and systems of Southwark Council - if this is the case, then whoever is in charge of these service contracts may be facing a prison sentance for corporate manslaughter.
You say that there isn't a pump capable of getting to 11 floors, but the Petronas Twin Towers were built by having concrete pumped up 80 or so floors. Surely someone should try and resolve that? Obviously not to that extreme but as you said dry risers are always the best solution.
He was firmly of the opinion that high rise flats were death traps for all sorts of reasons. He had personal experience of the Ronan Point Tower Block collapse 40 odd years ago.
He spent a large part of his career battling bureaucrats and politicians, both blue and red, to try and ensure more than one means of escape in blocks of flats or failing that sprinkler systems in each flat at least. He was instrumental in getting the the fire proofing and fire door legislation passed such as it is but always felt that it was not enough and more should and could have been done.
In the end I think he was regarded as a nuisance by some and possibly sacrificed rising even higher in his career to his principles.
Addickted raises valid points re fire doors being wedged open etc which is why alternative means of escape and /or sprinklers would have been useful.
There are deluge and drentcher systems which operate the similar to a sprinkler system .
People look at hose reel systems and extingushers within their buildings as their way of fighting fires -------------------------they only work if they are being serviced !
Don't think the leaseholders would be that keen on paying their share.
Agreed.
It should have been done when they were built and should be standard for new builds. That is what my father tried to fight for in blocks of flats with no alternative means of escape.
Cutting costs is more important than human life though in all walks of life.
That's good to know. How long has that been the case?
When you say "Residential Homes" do you mean speciallist homes such as Old peoples' homes or flats for individuals such as the Camberwell block in question if it was built today?
Since the latest Building Regulation changes in 2000, though they theoretically didn't come into affect until 2003 (Hospitals have been deemed to require sprinklers since 1996). The current Part B - Fire Safety of the Building Regulations is a pretty thorough document, so incidents like last weeks should never happen in a new building.
The block that caught fire if built today would NOT require a sprinkler system. I suspect that most of the current fire precaution requirements however would have been post installed - like upgraded addressable fire alarm systems.
Bare in mind that this 50 year old block is one of hundreds throughout the country and a fatal fire is a very rare occurence.
My father would have been pleased to know that some of what he fought for came to fruition.
Regarding Camberwell, as I understand it, one of the problems was that there was only one staircase for escape. Do new builds have to be constructed with more than one means of escape or not?