[cite]Posted By: jimmymelrose[/cite]You don't know if we'll have anymore of a 'long season of struggle' with Parky than with some other bloke. Personally I think not.
'since mid-november' is not sticking with your manager. That's only 6 months. Let him actually start a season at the helm.
Of course I can't be 100% certain.
However, virtually everything I have seen since November + the exit of anyone with a cash value + the exit of all high earners who are out of contract + not a penny weighed out in transfer fees in the summer + Parkinson's record in the transfer market so far = me being 99.9% sure.
If a new manager comes in I'll go to 50/50.
If new investment comes along 30/70.
If we start slowly next year we will see attendances quickly dropping below 10k and open warfare on this board and in the stands.
However, virtually everything I have seen since November + the exit of anyone with a cash value + the exit of all high earners who are out of contract + not a penny weighed out in transfer fees in the summer + Parkinson's record in the transfer market so far = me being 99.9% sure.
[/quote]
None of that is Parky's fault. Even the players he got in were desperate and probably he knew that but didn't have much choice.
I honestly can't decide if he should stay or go, I really see both sides of the argument. But the one that makes my mind up is a purely financial one. I think a new manager being announced will increase season ticket sales. I really think many will give it a miss next year if he's in charge rightly or wrongly..
And then what? If by November he still hasn't got the necessary results we'll be looking at having to get a new manager in and most likely a further season in League One, plus there'll be fewer fans around. Now is the best time to get a new manager in - to revitalise the club and get a new squad together, someone hopefully who'll take the collection of youth team players and the odd experienced pro and meld them into a team.
So what if you get in a new manager and by November he 'still hasn't got the necessary results?'
Another new manager then another and another and another. A bit like 2006 - 2009. That worked.
[cite]Posted By: jimmymelrose[/cite]None of that is Parky's fault. Even the players he got in were desperate and probably he knew that but didn't have much choice.
Yep. In the summer we'll be able to go for out of contract players at other clubs that are desperate to prove themselves, either a Championship club that they were wrong to not keep them, or smaller clubs that they can play on a bigger stage.
He could have just not signed anyone because the players available aren't enough of an improvement, but that would have been seen as even worse.
[cite]Posted By: Nug[/cite]I honestly can't decide if he should stay or go, I really see both sides of the argument. But the one that makes my mind up is a purely financial one. I think a new manager being announced will increase season ticket sales. I really think many will give it a miss next year if he's in charge rightly or wrongly..
Would the increased sales outweigh paying him off?
Is it really true that so many more people will re-new?
Just who the f*** is this other manager who's going to be so great?
However, virtually everything I have seen since November + the exit of anyone with a cash value + the exit of all high earners who are out of contract + not a penny weighed out in transfer fees in the summer + Parkinson's record in the transfer market so far = me being 99.9% sure.
None of that is Parky's fault. Even the players he got in were desperate and probably he knew that but didn't have much choice.[/cite]
I think you'll find he had a considerable hand in the performances on the pitch since mid Nov Jimmy, and let's face it, they ain't been too clever so don't see how you can it's not Parky's fault.
However, virtually everything I have seen since November + the exit of anyone with a cash value + the exit of all high earners who are out of contract + not a penny weighed out in transfer fees in the summer + Parkinson's record in the transfer market so far = me being 99.9% sure.
None of that is Parky's fault. Even the players he got in were desperate and probably he knew that but didn't have much choice.[/quote]
Sorry, but a good percentage of the crap that has been served up is his fault. How many late goals have we given away? How many shite 2nd halfs have we seen? How many times have you sat and watched us put 11 men behind the ball when we go a goal up? How many times have we dropped deeper and deeper as a game has moved towards the last 10mins?
We lost 2 goal leads in our last two home games and in both games his tactics have buggered us. How many times since November have we seen a tactical plan B when we have started poorly and or been outplayed?. His idea of a tactical switch seems to involve bringing on another man to stand behind the ball in the last 10mins ala Holland against Cardiff.
Do you want to watch 4-5-1 at home to Northampton on freezing Tuesday next November?.
[cite]Posted By: Nug[/cite]I honestly can't decide if he should stay or go, I really see both sides of the argument. But the one that makes my mind up is a purely financial one. I think a new manager being announced will increase season ticket sales. I really think many will give it a miss next year if he's in charge rightly or wrongly..
Would the increased sales outweigh paying him off?
Is it really true that so many more people will re-new?
Just who the f*** is this other manager who's going to be so great?
Does he need paying off? Can't imagine his salary is excessive. As for other managers, there are people out there who would love to give it a go I'm sure, and I do personally believe him going would make a difference to season ticket sales, he seems like a decent bloke but there is a losing mentality about or club at the moment and a real negative culture.
[cite]Posted By: jimmymelrose[/cite]
He could have just not signed anyone because the players available aren't enough of an improvement, but that would have been seen as even worse.
[cite]Posted By: Nug[/cite]I honestly can't decide if he should stay or go, I really see both sides of the argument. But the one that makes my mind up is a purely financial one. I think a new manager being announced will increase season ticket sales. I really think many will give it a miss next year if he's in charge rightly or wrongly..
Would the increased sales outweigh paying him off?
Is it really true that so many more people will re-new?
Just who the f*** is this other manager who's going to be so great?
Does he need paying off? Can't imagine his salary is excessive. As for other managers, there are people out there who would love to give it a go I'm sure, and I do personally believe him going would make a difference to season ticket sales, he seems like a decent bloke but there is a losing mentality about or club at the moment and a real negative culture.
I'd like to 'give it a go.' Should I be manager then? Seriously, is there anyone better qualified? Show me another manager available who's already won promotion from League 1.
My point financially was that paying him off would not necessarily be less (what qualifies as excessive?) than the loss of season ticket sales (a problem that isn't proved to even exist).
He knows himself that there is a losing mentality - he says as much in his interviews. He means to change that. I believe that he can and will.
Finally, the 'negative culture': isn't that just psychological? isn't it the fans that re-enforce this? Look at Newcastle - so much negativity pre-Shearer. So much positivity when he was appointed. Still in the relegation zone though, aren't they?
Reinforcing failure for fear of further failure is not a smart move. Parkinson seems a decent bloke and has tried his best but he's had long enough to turn things around but it hasn't worked and it's clear that he's lost the changing room. When we win the victories seem to be hard fought joyless affairs.
As to who replaces him, that is down to the board to decide, but there are plenty of candidates out there who must view Charlton as an opportunity.
I don't agree it's clear he's lost the dressing room and I certainly wouldn't have described the Southampton game as joyless.
But your point about reinforcing failure is fair. I did say in my original post that based on results alone he probably will have to go.
But I don't think its as clear cut as you paint it. I'm in the camp that thinks we do look like a team now, albeit a team with serious flaws.
But maybe Parkinson deserves chance to address those flaws properly this summer?
As to the replacement being down to the board to decide. Well, quite! Easy as that.
Recent experience must mean they are probably running scared of their next appointment.
If the new manager turns about to be some doofus they will be castigated for getting it wrong again by the very people now demanding they sack Parkinson.
Maybe that isn't a reason to keep Parky - but maybe they have seen enough to believe he's better than what's out there.
You say there must be plenty of candidates who must view Charlton as an opportunity - who do you have in mind?
Do you want to watch 4-5-1 at home to Northampton on freezing Tuesday next November?.
Really can't use that as an arguement. He's clearly playing 4-5-1 because we have several (too many) midfielders (because of Pardew) and seriously lack Championship quality up front. It's all about doing the best with what we have, thanks to the horribly unbalanced squad Pardew created.
He started off playing 4-4-2 and it didn't work too well, once Racon and Zheng were fit, Shelvey had signed a pro contract he started playing them all.
A re-built squad, a good pre-season getting the players as fit as possible will give the squad a new mentality, they can go in with confidence. Apart from a few less fans behind them, Parkinson has as much chance of doing that as any other manager does. In fact he'll have even more time than they would as he knows the squad and the club have been watching players that we might sign for next season.
That said if we could get someone like Darren Ferguson in I would be happy, but I really don't think the job is as appealing as we sometimes imagine it is to managers already at clubs doing well. What out of work managers are there that are definitely an improvement?
I'd like to 'give it a go.' Should I be manager then? Seriously, is there anyone better qualified? Show me another manager available who's already won promotion from League 1.
My point financially was that paying him off would not necessarily be less (what qualifies as excessive?) than the loss of season ticket sales (a problem that isn't proved to even exist).
He knows himself that there is a losing mentality - he says as much in his interviews. He means to change that. I believe that he can and will.
Finally, the 'negative culture': isn't that just psychological? isn't it the fans that re-enforce this? Look at Newcastle - so much negativity pre-Shearer. So much positivity when he was appointed. Still in the relegation zone though, aren't they?
Ultimately Parky has lost the changing room and is unable to get that extra few percent out of them when it matters. There has been a pattern in the results - late goals conceded, leads squandered, substitutions that are reactive and not proactive, we've become a team that other clubs like to play against. I was prepared to give him the benefit of the doubt, but what finally sealed it for me were the two home defeats against Doncaster and Watford, after a couple of hard-fought draws on the road the team meekly surrendered in two must win games on the bounce. The evidence suggests that he's unable to motivate players above mediocity and I can't see that changing next season when he'll have fewer players of experience in the squad and even less money to play with. I assume that we are going to have to rely heavily on loanees next year, but I wonder whether premiership teams are going to want to send their up and coming stars to Charlton.
i love the pro parky posse forgetting that he has been coach/pardews assistant or whatever since jan 2007 , so imo clearly part of the team that took us to where we are and he's in fact produced worse results since he took over from pardew ...... anything will be an improvement on this current run of results
[cite]Posted By: BlackForestReds[/cite]but what finally sealed it for me were the two home defeats against Doncaster and Watford
Might have won those games if we weren't forced to play League One strikers up front, Dickson on his own against Doncaster, and Burton and Kandol against Watford.
He only signed Burton and Kandol because there wasn't anything else available - as shown by Pardew signing Waghorn not long before that.
[cite]Posted By: oohaahmortimer[/cite]i love the pro parky posse forgetting that he has been coach/pardews assistant or whatever since jan 2007 , so imo clearly part of the team that took us to where we are and he's in fact produced worse results since he took over from pardew ...... anything will be an improvement on this current run of results
We all know they had different opinions though, Racon and Iwelumo two examples and there are probably several more we don't know about.
[cite]Posted By: oohaahmortimer[/cite]i love the pro parky posse forgetting that he has been coach/pardews assistant or whatever since jan 2007 , so imo clearly part of the team that took us to where we are and he's in fact produced worse results since he took over from pardew ...... anything will be an improvement on this current run of results
So if Pardew had got us promoted would you be singing the praises of Parkinson?
Assistant to me means just that - assisting the man who makes the decisions and following his direction.
Totally different from being the man making the decisions.
Using your argument are you then demanding the sacking of Kinsella?
do you not think that we have had so many players under performing and not playing to their maximum ability that the whole management/coaching set up has been a disaster
So if Pardew had got us promoted would you be singing the praises of Parkinson?
Assistant to me means just that - assisting the man who makes the decisions and following his direction.
Totally different from being the man making the decisions.
Using your argument are you then demanding the sacking of Kinsella?
if pardew had got us promoted then his management team would have been beneficial to him but they weren't and he didn't
and dowies enforced management team didn't do him any favours
curbs and reed did well then big merv so credit where credits due but obviously the manager is the main man
has kinsella been involved in the management set up for 2 years ? but admittedly there hasn't been any real sign of improvement imo
I don't agree it's clear he's lost the dressing room and I certainly wouldn't have described the Southampton game as joyless.
But I don't think its as clear cut as you paint it. I'm in the camp that thinks we do look like a team now, albeit a team with serious flaws.
..........
Regarding his losing of the changing room - look at the evidence, in two recent matches we've had and lost 2-0 leads, once is bad enough, but twice? Secondly our second half displays for months have been lacklustre and we've been unable to build on decent first half performances. Even the Southampton match - they were allowed to get back into the match when the door should have been firmly slammed shut, and frankly we should be boasting about beating a team one place higher than us and in turmoil. At some point the person in charge has to take account for decisions made in these games. I appreciate that once the players are on the pitch then the manager is rendered an observer, but nevertheless you'd expect the team to defend leads and fight back from deficits.
We may finally look like a team - but bear in mind that much of yesterday's match squad won't be here next season - the three loanees will go home, one or two are out of contract and will leave and I'm sure that at least one of Racon, Bailey and Shelvey will be transferred. Plus there are players like Gray - he doesn't seem settled down south and with personal problems he may choose to return to the north, Weaver too - at least we have in Elliott and Randolph two very capable replacements so he won't be missed. Will Hudson stay? In all I can seriously see half of yesterday's squad leaving, and with that kind of turnover you could appoint a new manager and start afresh.
[cite]Posted By: BlackForestReds[/cite]but what finally sealed it for me were the two home defeats against Doncaster and Watford
Might have won those games if we weren't forced to play League One strikers up front, Dickson on his own against Doncaster, and Burton and Kandol against Watford.
He only signed Burton and Kandol because there wasn't anything else available - as shown by Pardew signing Waghorn not long before that.
We lost those games because we conceded soft goals against two well organised teams, if we'd been defensively organised (something there hasn't been much evidence of) then we could have won those games. It isn't always about scoring goals - not conceding them in the first place is important and we've been too much of a soft touch this season.
Well at least we should win something this season - the prize for the most loyal fans in the country. The worst manager in the club's history who simply doesn't know how to win, and there are still people arguing that he should stay and his record of 3 wins in 27 isn't actually his fault!
Deep respect to Parky's faithful posse. I'd definitely want your steadfast qualities in the lifeboat when the ship goes down. Whether I'd want you chosing a manager to get my football team out of div three is quite another matter entirely , though...
[cite]Posted By: BlackForestReds[/cite]We lost those games because we conceded soft goals against two well organised teams, if we'd been defensively organised (something there hasn't been much evidence of) then we could have won those games. It isn't always about scoring goals - not conceding them in the first place is important and we've been too much of a soft touch this season.
Sorry didn't make it clear what I meant, if we had better players (not just goalscorers) up front they'd give the ball away less, make the right decisions, give us an outlet for the entire match. Darren Bent didn't give the ball away much, neither did our strikers in the past that weren't great goalscorers (most of them while we were in the Prem).
Look at Kandol with his poor touch and at least 3 times from what I've seen, ridiculous back passes.
Your not wrong about the defence, but again that goes back to Pardew. We only have 2 of our own centre backs, and it was the same in August. Money wasted by Pardew on signings like Fleetwood, and spending a big part of the wage budget on one defender in Hudson, when we were going to need at least 2 new centre backs.
[cite]Posted By: BlackForestReds[/cite]Maybe Mark Robson, Chris Powell or even Paul Ince...
Eddie Howe at Bournemouth has done a fantastic job...
Same old suggestions, two ex-players that we have no idea how they'd do and a manager at another club which won't necessarily want to come here if he's comfortable there and we might not be able to afford.
Ince isn't a bad idea, but he could end up being another Dowie.
[cite]Posted By: BlackForestReds[/cite]We lost those games because we conceded soft goals against two well organised teams, if we'd been defensively organised (something there hasn't been much evidence of) then we could have won those games. It isn't always about scoring goals - not conceding them in the first place is important and we've been too much of a soft touch this season.
Sorry didn't make it clear what I meant, if we had better players (not just goalscorers) up front they'd give the ball away less, make the right decisions, give us an outlet for the entire match. Darren Bent didn't give the ball away much, neither did our strikers in the past that weren't great goalscorers (most of them while we were in the Prem).
Look at Kandol with his poor touch and at least 3 times from what I've seen, ridiculous back passes.
Your not wrong about the defence, but again that goes back to Pardew. We only have 2 of our own centre backs, and it was the same in August. Money wasted by Pardew on signings like Fleetwood, and spending a big part of the wage budget on one defender in Hudson, when we were going to need at least 2 new centre backs.
[cite]Posted By: BlackForestReds[/cite]Maybe Mark Robson, Chris Powell or even Paul Ince...
Eddie Howe at Bournemouth has done a fantastic job...
Same old suggestions, two ex-players that we have no idea how they'd do and a manager at another club which won't necessarily want to come here if he's comfortable there and we might not be able to afford.
Ince isn't a bad idea, but he could end up being another Dowie.
Christ if we couldn't entice Howe away from Bournemouth we are far worse of than I thought. Of course he'd come if that's who the Board fancied.
Comments
Of course I can't be 100% certain.
However, virtually everything I have seen since November + the exit of anyone with a cash value + the exit of all high earners who are out of contract + not a penny weighed out in transfer fees in the summer + Parkinson's record in the transfer market so far = me being 99.9% sure.
If a new manager comes in I'll go to 50/50.
If new investment comes along 30/70.
If we start slowly next year we will see attendances quickly dropping below 10k and open warfare on this board and in the stands.
Of course I can't be 100% certain.
However, virtually everything I have seen since November + the exit of anyone with a cash value + the exit of all high earners who are out of contract + not a penny weighed out in transfer fees in the summer + Parkinson's record in the transfer market so far = me being 99.9% sure.
[/quote]
None of that is Parky's fault. Even the players he got in were desperate and probably he knew that but didn't have much choice.
Yep. In the summer we'll be able to go for out of contract players at other clubs that are desperate to prove themselves, either a Championship club that they were wrong to not keep them, or smaller clubs that they can play on a bigger stage.
He could have just not signed anyone because the players available aren't enough of an improvement, but that would have been seen as even worse.
Would the increased sales outweigh paying him off?
Is it really true that so many more people will re-new?
Just who the f*** is this other manager who's going to be so great?
I think you'll find he had a considerable hand in the performances on the pitch since mid Nov Jimmy, and let's face it, they ain't been too clever so don't see how you can it's not Parky's fault.
Parky must stay.
...........
So Parky must stay purely for the sake of continuity? That is what your argument is reduced to.
None of that is Parky's fault. Even the players he got in were desperate and probably he knew that but didn't have much choice.[/quote]
Sorry, but a good percentage of the crap that has been served up is his fault. How many late goals have we given away? How many shite 2nd halfs have we seen? How many times have you sat and watched us put 11 men behind the ball when we go a goal up? How many times have we dropped deeper and deeper as a game has moved towards the last 10mins?
We lost 2 goal leads in our last two home games and in both games his tactics have buggered us. How many times since November have we seen a tactical plan B when we have started poorly and or been outplayed?. His idea of a tactical switch seems to involve bringing on another man to stand behind the ball in the last 10mins ala Holland against Cardiff.
Do you want to watch 4-5-1 at home to Northampton on freezing Tuesday next November?.
Does he need paying off? Can't imagine his salary is excessive. As for other managers, there are people out there who would love to give it a go I'm sure, and I do personally believe him going would make a difference to season ticket sales, he seems like a decent bloke but there is a losing mentality about or club at the moment and a real negative culture.
I'd like to 'give it a go.' Should I be manager then? Seriously, is there anyone better qualified? Show me another manager available who's already won promotion from League 1.
My point financially was that paying him off would not necessarily be less (what qualifies as excessive?) than the loss of season ticket sales (a problem that isn't proved to even exist).
He knows himself that there is a losing mentality - he says as much in his interviews. He means to change that. I believe that he can and will.
Finally, the 'negative culture': isn't that just psychological? isn't it the fans that re-enforce this? Look at Newcastle - so much negativity pre-Shearer. So much positivity when he was appointed. Still in the relegation zone though, aren't they?
I don't agree it's clear he's lost the dressing room and I certainly wouldn't have described the Southampton game as joyless.
But your point about reinforcing failure is fair. I did say in my original post that based on results alone he probably will have to go.
But I don't think its as clear cut as you paint it. I'm in the camp that thinks we do look like a team now, albeit a team with serious flaws.
But maybe Parkinson deserves chance to address those flaws properly this summer?
As to the replacement being down to the board to decide. Well, quite! Easy as that.
Recent experience must mean they are probably running scared of their next appointment.
If the new manager turns about to be some doofus they will be castigated for getting it wrong again by the very people now demanding they sack Parkinson.
Maybe that isn't a reason to keep Parky - but maybe they have seen enough to believe he's better than what's out there.
You say there must be plenty of candidates who must view Charlton as an opportunity - who do you have in mind?
Really can't use that as an arguement. He's clearly playing 4-5-1 because we have several (too many) midfielders (because of Pardew) and seriously lack Championship quality up front. It's all about doing the best with what we have, thanks to the horribly unbalanced squad Pardew created.
He started off playing 4-4-2 and it didn't work too well, once Racon and Zheng were fit, Shelvey had signed a pro contract he started playing them all.
A re-built squad, a good pre-season getting the players as fit as possible will give the squad a new mentality, they can go in with confidence. Apart from a few less fans behind them, Parkinson has as much chance of doing that as any other manager does. In fact he'll have even more time than they would as he knows the squad and the club have been watching players that we might sign for next season.
That said if we could get someone like Darren Ferguson in I would be happy, but I really don't think the job is as appealing as we sometimes imagine it is to managers already at clubs doing well. What out of work managers are there that are definitely an improvement?
Might have won those games if we weren't forced to play League One strikers up front, Dickson on his own against Doncaster, and Burton and Kandol against Watford.
He only signed Burton and Kandol because there wasn't anything else available - as shown by Pardew signing Waghorn not long before that.
We all know they had different opinions though, Racon and Iwelumo two examples and there are probably several more we don't know about.
So if Pardew had got us promoted would you be singing the praises of Parkinson?
Assistant to me means just that - assisting the man who makes the decisions and following his direction.
Totally different from being the man making the decisions.
Using your argument are you then demanding the sacking of Kinsella?
if pardew had got us promoted then his management team would have been beneficial to him but they weren't and he didn't
and dowies enforced management team didn't do him any favours
curbs and reed did well then big merv so credit where credits due but obviously the manager is the main man
has kinsella been involved in the management set up for 2 years ? but admittedly there hasn't been any real sign of improvement imo
But I don't think its as clear cut as you paint it. I'm in the camp that thinks we do look like a team now, albeit a team with serious flaws.
..........
Regarding his losing of the changing room - look at the evidence, in two recent matches we've had and lost 2-0 leads, once is bad enough, but twice? Secondly our second half displays for months have been lacklustre and we've been unable to build on decent first half performances. Even the Southampton match - they were allowed to get back into the match when the door should have been firmly slammed shut, and frankly we should be boasting about beating a team one place higher than us and in turmoil. At some point the person in charge has to take account for decisions made in these games. I appreciate that once the players are on the pitch then the manager is rendered an observer, but nevertheless you'd expect the team to defend leads and fight back from deficits.
We may finally look like a team - but bear in mind that much of yesterday's match squad won't be here next season - the three loanees will go home, one or two are out of contract and will leave and I'm sure that at least one of Racon, Bailey and Shelvey will be transferred. Plus there are players like Gray - he doesn't seem settled down south and with personal problems he may choose to return to the north, Weaver too - at least we have in Elliott and Randolph two very capable replacements so he won't be missed. Will Hudson stay? In all I can seriously see half of yesterday's squad leaving, and with that kind of turnover you could appoint a new manager and start afresh.
We lost those games because we conceded soft goals against two well organised teams, if we'd been defensively organised (something there hasn't been much evidence of) then we could have won those games. It isn't always about scoring goals - not conceding them in the first place is important and we've been too much of a soft touch this season.
Well he's hardly got them running through brick walls for him has he?
.........
I've no idea...but then I'm not in the football industry and not aware of who is available and who might be looking or available.
Perhaps an experienced prem/ccc player who we can entice as a player/manager just as Curbs was a playyer/manager when he was first appointed?
Maybe Mark Robson, Chris Powell or even Paul Ince...
Eddie Howe at Bournemouth has done a fantastic job...
Deep respect to Parky's faithful posse. I'd definitely want your steadfast qualities in the lifeboat when the ship goes down. Whether I'd want you chosing a manager to get my football team out of div three is quite another matter entirely , though...
Sorry didn't make it clear what I meant, if we had better players (not just goalscorers) up front they'd give the ball away less, make the right decisions, give us an outlet for the entire match. Darren Bent didn't give the ball away much, neither did our strikers in the past that weren't great goalscorers (most of them while we were in the Prem).
Look at Kandol with his poor touch and at least 3 times from what I've seen, ridiculous back passes.
Your not wrong about the defence, but again that goes back to Pardew. We only have 2 of our own centre backs, and it was the same in August. Money wasted by Pardew on signings like Fleetwood, and spending a big part of the wage budget on one defender in Hudson, when we were going to need at least 2 new centre backs.
Same old suggestions, two ex-players that we have no idea how they'd do and a manager at another club which won't necessarily want to come here if he's comfortable there and we might not be able to afford.
Ince isn't a bad idea, but he could end up being another Dowie.
Christ if we couldn't entice Howe away from Bournemouth we are far worse of than I thought. Of course he'd come if that's who the Board fancied.