Is anyone concerned with the continued losses the ressies are havin,this aint me havin a dig,makes you wonder if there is a losing mentality running through the club as a whole. Discuss !!!!
hmmmm Uncle is not too complimentary on Mr Kinsella's management style is he. 4 defeats in a row is not great is it but then I didn't think reserve team football was a results business - or is it.
I think the losing mentality must filter down - after all some of the reserve players are 1st teamers as well
[cite]Posted By: northstandsteve[/cite]Is anyone concerned with the continued losses the ressies are havin,this aint me havin a dig,makes you wonder if there is a losing mentality running through the club as a whole. Discuss !!!!
Not really. When they were winning a lot last year that didn't mean we had a winning mentality in the first team.
We had two trialists and a load of kids on Tuesday. Don't like losing to Smallwall at anything but no, not that bothered.
[cite]Posted By: northstandsteve[/cite]Is anyone concerned with the continued losses the ressies are havin,this aint me havin a dig,makes you wonder if there is a losing mentality running through the club as a whole. Discuss !!!!
The Club line, spin call it what you will is that the reserves are primarily youth players with the odd injured senior pro striving for fitness thrown in thus reserve results don't matter too much as the aim is to give the youngsters a higher standard of football.
I think the theory is that if the youngsters have had decent reserve experience then they can step up to the first team more easily. Basey, Elliott, Shelvey and Wright being the most recent examples.
I think the real question is does the strategy work in that do the youngsters integrate into the first team once promoted?
Trying to be fair I'd say the jury is still out on that. The youngsters have shown glimpses of talent for sure but the consistency needed in a tough, physical league has been lacking but then what should one expect from youngsters in reality? Those Arsenal lads wouldn't perform like they did against Wigan week in week out.
I disagree. The policy seems to be to get the young players out on loan to gain the type of competitive experience that they need.
Dickson, McLeod, Youga, Basey, Elliot, Randolph, Racon were all examples of this last year and some this.
Wagstaff, A Thomas, Rashid, Fleetwood and Randolph again have all gone out this year.
My only quibble is that level of teams that some are going to ie Wagstaff to Northwich.
Add to the fact that their are plenty of injuries to Fortune, ZZ and Racon and Uchichi (SP) has got lost queueing for a work permit in Petty France while the first time changes so much their is no consistency for the ressies.
[cite]Posted By: Henry Irving[/cite]I disagree. The policy seems to be to get the young players out on loan to gain the type of competitive experience that they need.
Dickson, McLeod, Youga, Basey, Elliot, Randolph, Racon were all examples of this last year and some this.
Wagstaff, A Thomas, Rashid, Fleetwood and Randolph again have all gone out this year.
My only quibble is that level of teams that some are going to ie Wagstaff to Northwich.
Add to the fact that their are plenty of injuries to Fortune, ZZ and Racon and Uchichi (SP) has got lost queueing for a work permit in Petty France while the first time changes so much their is no consistency for the ressies.
I think getting them out on loan is the next stage if they prove themselves at reserve level as both Wagstaff and Shelvey did last season and Josh Wright the year before that which led to him going to Barnet last season and Brentford the early part of this.
Dickson, McLeod, Youga and Racon were all in their twenties last season so needed to be exposed to league football of some description to see if they were worth persevering with and could cut it. As we know Youga and to a lesser extent Dickson and Racon did well on loan and poor old Izzy got crocked so inconclusive in his case.
[cite]Posted By: LenGlover[/cite]The Club line, spin call it what you will is that the reserves are primarily youth players with the odd injured senior pro striving for fitness thrown in thus reserve results don't matter too much as the aim is to give the youngsters a higher standard of football.
As opposed to under Curbs when the club line appeared to be "lets win games and if we win more than anybody else we'll be champions".
It seems to me striking the right balance between giving returning injured players and squad players a run out and bringing on youngsters versus winning with lowly squad players who are unlikely to figure in the first team is difficult to achieve.
During Curbs time especially in the later years, there was too much of a gulf often between the reserves and the first teams so that the supply of home-grown talent dried up to a great extent. Under Pards that has been addressed somewhat, helped by the need to trim the squad. I would point to the fact that in the play off winning year, our reserves won the then reserve league and also, I believe were thereabouts the next few seasons. That is no co-incidence in my book. Having the winning mentality should work in whatever team you play.
I'm not that worried for the reasons Henry stated and the first team starting to improve will rub off on the lower teams. Pards does seem to have got the hump over the performance against Smallwall though. Given the apparent change in training for the first team, maybe the message will go out via Kins to the reserves to buck their ideas up?
[quote][cite]Posted By: bingaddick[/cite][quote][cite]Posted By: LenGlover[/cite]Pards does seem to have got the hump over the performance against Smallwall though. Given the apparent change in training for the first team, maybe the message will go out via Kins to the reserves to buck their ideas up?[/quote]
I imagine the thing that upset Pardew is that although playing for the ressies, all the starting line up were players who train in the 1st team squad and they underperformed, much as the 1st eleven have been doing most of the season, despite his new training regime.
To me this links into the Dickson comments. I am not sure any of us has seen enough of the majority of the reserves to determine whether they can contribute to the team. AP sees them every day. I can accept his decisions but with Dickson worry he still “has a long way to go” after 18 months full time. Where & how is he going to develop to earn a run in the side? He is not alone.
With academy graduates, overseas & non league lads we have 18 pro’s with little league experience. Add 17 academy lads and it is a big challenge. Are we really so blessed with young talent or keeping these lads around just to make up the numbers? How are all these youngsters to develop their game?
Lads, who earned a contract playing regularly in the reserves for 2 yrs, end up with more of the same. Accepting they will mature physically it is hard to progress when you play at the same level. No matter how good the coaching you really learn from playing with & against better players, which I am not sure reserve football provides anymore. Loans offer some opportunity but bring their own challenges as we have witnessed.
Consider Josh Wright, seen as a real talent, the only way he is going to learn to play at this level is TO PLAY at this level yet since he turned pro we have added Bailey, Racon, Semedo, Sinclair & Zheng Zhi. These players add value but how can Wright develop to make the team with 5 new players signed who can play in his position, not including Holland or Varney (now getting a midfield slot) or other youngsters like Shelvey, Arter and Yusseff.
I have to assume anyone we sign we believe has a real chance of contributing to our first team. It is in both our interests to maximize their opportunity to do so, if we cannot it is better we let them seek to progress elsewhere.
It is a tough assessment call but do we not need to focus on fewer selected young (academy, non league, o’seas) talents? Provide them a real chance to challenge for the first team in 2 years with a genuine first team squad slot? Otherwise we seem in danger of running the academy for its own sake, which wastes our money and these lads time?
The Millwall reserves result did dsturb me, I admit.
I looked at the midfield of Wright, Basey, Shelvey and young 'Arry Arter and was very pleased. I thought 'now there's the future of this club'. But they never got a grip on the game at all...
[cite]Posted By: nigel w[/cite]The Millwall reserves result did dsturb me, I admit.
I looked at the midfield of Wright, Basey, Shelvey and young 'Arry Arter and was very pleased. I thought 'now there's the future of this club'. But they never got a grip on the game at all...
But was that because they were inadequate as individual players. or as a midfield unit - or because they were up against stronger, more physical, more experienced players and found it hard to physically compete?
Just begging the question, because we know footballing skills wise, our boys are highly rated.
let's face it the whole footballing level of the club has deteriorated dramatically in the last few years and the crap results are the proof...
we have a lot of ordinary players here, hence our league position and we do have some good uns but i'm only optimistic that of the younger lot (23 and younger) jonjo will play at a higher level and maybe uchechi if he's still with us..
the rest can't see em above bottom half of championship at best IMO which aint worth the computer it's typed into!
Comments
I think the losing mentality must filter down - after all some of the reserve players are 1st teamers as well
to prepare players for first team football!!!
Not really. When they were winning a lot last year that didn't mean we had a winning mentality in the first team.
We had two trialists and a load of kids on Tuesday. Don't like losing to Smallwall at anything but no, not that bothered.
Elliot, Sinclair, Harte, Powell, Long, Christensen (Tuna), Wright, Basey, Shelvey, Arter (Lozano-Calderon), McLeod. Subs (not used): Christie, Stavrinou, Mambo.
The Club line, spin call it what you will is that the reserves are primarily youth players with the odd injured senior pro striving for fitness thrown in thus reserve results don't matter too much as the aim is to give the youngsters a higher standard of football.
I think the theory is that if the youngsters have had decent reserve experience then they can step up to the first team more easily. Basey, Elliott, Shelvey and Wright being the most recent examples.
I think the real question is does the strategy work in that do the youngsters integrate into the first team once promoted?
Trying to be fair I'd say the jury is still out on that. The youngsters have shown glimpses of talent for sure but the consistency needed in a tough, physical league has been lacking but then what should one expect from youngsters in reality? Those Arsenal lads wouldn't perform like they did against Wigan week in week out.
Dickson, McLeod, Youga, Basey, Elliot, Randolph, Racon were all examples of this last year and some this.
Wagstaff, A Thomas, Rashid, Fleetwood and Randolph again have all gone out this year.
My only quibble is that level of teams that some are going to ie Wagstaff to Northwich.
Add to the fact that their are plenty of injuries to Fortune, ZZ and Racon and Uchichi (SP) has got lost queueing for a work permit in Petty France while the first time changes so much their is no consistency for the ressies.
I think getting them out on loan is the next stage if they prove themselves at reserve level as both Wagstaff and Shelvey did last season and Josh Wright the year before that which led to him going to Barnet last season and Brentford the early part of this.
Dickson, McLeod, Youga and Racon were all in their twenties last season so needed to be exposed to league football of some description to see if they were worth persevering with and could cut it. As we know Youga and to a lesser extent Dickson and Racon did well on loan and poor old Izzy got crocked so inconclusive in his case.
erm millwall reserves...................oh dear
As opposed to under Curbs when the club line appeared to be "lets win games and if we win more than anybody else we'll be champions".
It seems to me striking the right balance between giving returning injured players and squad players a run out and bringing on youngsters versus winning with lowly squad players who are unlikely to figure in the first team is difficult to achieve.
During Curbs time especially in the later years, there was too much of a gulf often between the reserves and the first teams so that the supply of home-grown talent dried up to a great extent. Under Pards that has been addressed somewhat, helped by the need to trim the squad. I would point to the fact that in the play off winning year, our reserves won the then reserve league and also, I believe were thereabouts the next few seasons. That is no co-incidence in my book. Having the winning mentality should work in whatever team you play.
I'm not that worried for the reasons Henry stated and the first team starting to improve will rub off on the lower teams. Pards does seem to have got the hump over the performance against Smallwall though. Given the apparent change in training for the first team, maybe the message will go out via Kins to the reserves to buck their ideas up?
I imagine the thing that upset Pardew is that although playing for the ressies, all the starting line up were players who train in the 1st team squad and they underperformed, much as the 1st eleven have been doing most of the season, despite his new training regime.
What's that all about, then?
With academy graduates, overseas & non league lads we have 18 pro’s with little league experience. Add 17 academy lads and it is a big challenge. Are we really so blessed with young talent or keeping these lads around just to make up the numbers? How are all these youngsters to develop their game?
Lads, who earned a contract playing regularly in the reserves for 2 yrs, end up with more of the same. Accepting they will mature physically it is hard to progress when you play at the same level. No matter how good the coaching you really learn from playing with & against better players, which I am not sure reserve football provides anymore. Loans offer some opportunity but bring their own challenges as we have witnessed.
Consider Josh Wright, seen as a real talent, the only way he is going to learn to play at this level is TO PLAY at this level yet since he turned pro we have added Bailey, Racon, Semedo, Sinclair & Zheng Zhi. These players add value but how can Wright develop to make the team with 5 new players signed who can play in his position, not including Holland or Varney (now getting a midfield slot) or other youngsters like Shelvey, Arter and Yusseff.
I have to assume anyone we sign we believe has a real chance of contributing to our first team. It is in both our interests to maximize their opportunity to do so, if we cannot it is better we let them seek to progress elsewhere.
It is a tough assessment call but do we not need to focus on fewer selected young (academy, non league, o’seas) talents? Provide them a real chance to challenge for the first team in 2 years with a genuine first team squad slot? Otherwise we seem in danger of running the academy for its own sake, which wastes our money and these lads time?
Grapevine 49
I looked at the midfield of Wright, Basey, Shelvey and young 'Arry Arter and was very pleased. I thought 'now there's the future of this club'. But they never got a grip on the game at all...
But was that because they were inadequate as individual players. or as a midfield unit - or because they were up against stronger, more physical, more experienced players and found it hard to physically compete?
Just begging the question, because we know footballing skills wise, our boys are highly rated.
we have a lot of ordinary players here, hence our league position and we do have some good uns but i'm only optimistic that of the younger lot (23 and younger) jonjo will play at a higher level and maybe uchechi if he's still with us..
the rest can't see em above bottom half of championship at best IMO which aint worth the computer it's typed into!