Had a bit of luck, as it came off a Charlton head and the forward was on side. Lino puts his flag up, ref plays on, our players stop.They score and then the ref goes over to the lino and between them they cancel the goal.
The ref saw that it came off a Charlton head (Moo2 I think) so the only reason for going over to the lino was to ask the question was he offside before the flick or after it. The answer must clearly have been "from the initial ball" therefore offside was correctly given. I haven't seen a replay but the ref clearly saw it came off a Charlton head so that can be the only reason he went to the lino...very good refereeing imo too, let the move pan out before checking, too many would just have blown up or let the goal stand. In fact one of the best bits of refereeing I've seen in a long time.
That's how I saw it. The ref knew it came off a charlton head, but the question was whether he was offside anyway from the ball forward. Lino said yes.
More worrying was the fact that our players just seemed to stop when the flag went up. What is it they tdrum into you when you are a kid, "play to the whistle"!
[cite]Posted By: RedArmySE7[/cite]The ref saw that it came off a Charlton head (Moo2 I think) so the only reason for going over to the lino was to ask the question was he offside before the flick or after it. The answer must clearly have been "from the initial ball" therefore offside was correctly given. I haven't seen a replay but the ref clearly saw it came off a Charlton head so that can be the only reason he went to the lino...very good refereeing imo too, let the move pan out before checking, too many would just have blown up or let the goal stand. In fact one of the best bits of refereeing I've seen in a long time.
I agree with all of that. Too often Referees bottle that situation or just stop play.
I couldn't see if the Burnely player was off or not when the ball was played but I thought the ref overrulled the lino becuase of Mootookill getting his head in the way.
Great goal though and he skinned Primus good and proper
Let's face it we're all confused somewhat over the offside law as it stands nowadays....for example can someone tell me whether or not the rule book states that if a defender touches the ball on it's way to a player who's offside whether that then puts him onside or not...cos if that's the case that goal was perfectly acceptable...he was clearly played on.
The offside rule/rules at present are a dogs dinner....simply because it's now left open to interpretation, which in years gone by was NOT the case...it was pretty clear.....that's not to say mistakes were still not made but the rules were clear to one and all.
We now have a situation where a goal in one stadium is allowed and in another a few miles down the road is disallowed purely because of the officials differing interpretation.... a very poor situation if you ask me.
IMHO....the was he or was he not 'played on' issue needs to be nailed on once and for all so it's clear to everyone.
I think it's pretty clear as it is in that situation. If when the ball goes forward he is in an offside position and then runs onto that ball he is surely offside, regardless of whether it scraped our players head on the way through or not.
I'm guessing that the ref thought the lino was flagging because he thought the flick on was from their player, but when he went over to check the lino told him that he was flagging for the initial ball forward - so goal disallowed.
Come to think of it, as I am typing that I don't know whether it makes any sense or not - so you're right, it's a bloody mess!
[cite]Posted By: boogica[/cite]who cares it wasnt given so we had a bit of luck whatever the correct decision was.
I care because it clearly needs sorting out once and for all...can't see why you don't care just because on this occassion we happened to profit from the interpretation of these particular officials....on another day we may well have been less fortunate!
[cite]Posted By: SoundAsa£[/cite]Let's face it we're all confused somewhat over the offside law as it stands nowadays....for example can someone tell me whether or not the rule book states that if a defender touches the ball on it's way to a player who's offside whether that then puts him onside or not...cos if that's the case that goal was perfectly acceptable...he was clearly played on.
The offside rule/rules at present are a dogs dinner....simply because it's now left open to interpretation, which in years gone by was NOT the case...it was pretty clear.....that's not to say mistakes were still not made but the rules were clear to one and all.
We now have a situation where a goal in one stadium is allowed and in another a few miles down the road is disallowed purely because of the officials differing interpretation.... a very poor situation if you ask me.
IMHO....the was he or was he not 'played on' issue needs to be nailed on once and for all so it's clear to everyone.
I'm not in the slightest bit confused by the laws - only by the inconsistency with which they're applied. For instance, the rules on your first point are clear - if the ball is played to a player who is in an offisde position, then he is offside - irrespective of whether the ball comes off a defender on the way through to him. Can't get any clearer than that.
Well Leroy....you'd better tell that to the ref yesterday who thought otherwise as did I and Billy Boy plus quite a few folk sitting around me....the general consensus was that we were damned lucky to have got away with it because he was played on.
Are you saying that the played on rule is no longer applicable...if so I (and countless others) don't know that?
[cite]Posted By: boogica[/cite]you can carry on caring cos weve had our share of bad luck happens all the time in football and most officials are shite anyway.
Well that's OK guys IF you want the offside laws to be one of 'interpretation' by the officials.....if you want it clear(as it once was when I learned my football) then it once again must be MADE clear to officials throughout the footballing world....that's all I can say on the matter really.
The offside law is one of the best new laws in all sport. As long as you can interperate it. 99.9% of decisions I see from the East are correct including the lino yesterday.
The one that gets most people is when a centre forward heads the ball from a goal keepers drop kick when there appears to be 2 or even 3 defenders behind him, however when the kick was taken the forward was offside.
I insist on running the line for my boys football as no one else seems to understand the law and just stick their flag up whenever a player is in an offside posistion regardless of whether he is active or not.
"Let's just keep it simple, if he's offside he's offside" is the usual grunt you get.
Use the rule properley and it keeps the game flowing.
The offside law says that a player is in an offside position at the moment the ball is played.
The Burnley player was clearly in an offside position at the moment the ball was played forward by his team mate - that was the point of issue, regardless of the fact that the ball later came off a defender.
[cite]Posted By: SoundAsa£[/cite]Well Leroy....you'd better tell that to the ref yesterday who thought otherwise as did I and Billy Boy plus quite a few folk sitting around me....the general consensus was that we were damned lucky to have got away with it because he was played on.
Are you saying that the played on rule is no longer applicable...if so I (and countless others) don't know that?
It was done perfectly yesterday, the lino flagged, the ref was unsure if his flagging was due to the knock on by the CAFC player, or from the initial pass, so allowed play to continue, then check with the lino what he was flagging for. This is how things SHOULD be done.
So a player in an offside position(unlike in the past) can no longer be played on then....anyone know if that's definately the case?
Does anyone know this for sure....I freely admit I don't know now...I thought I did but it would seem several of you here are saying that part of the law no longer applies............if that's the case it's news to me??
[cite]Posted By: Oggy Red[/cite]The lino was spot on yesterday.
The offside law says that a player is in an offside position at the momentthe ball is played.
The Burnley player was clearly in an offside position at the moment the ball was played forward by his team mate - that was the point of issue, regardless of the fact that the ball later came off a defender.
Correct (don't forget active/inactive).
Confusion seems to occur when there is a sizeable gap between kick and nod on and they might be considered as different phases of play.
When, as was the case on Saturday, it all happens extremely quickly there is no argument. However, if for example, a kick takes a long time to be played on and the player who was in an offside position recovers to an onside position very quickly, the head on may be considered a separate phase of play.
This evening I have to teach the offside law to a room of 30-odd people and I'll hold my hands up, I'm not 100% which is the definitive answer (that's if there is one). I've spoken to several more senior referees about this and I've not had a single definitive answer.
For me, it's offside every time and I agree it was handled perfectly on Saturday - let play unfold then speak to the lino afterwards - the decision can be overturned up to the point of restarting play.
CFW...thanks for that...when I learned the laws if a defender so much as brushed the ball on it's way to the attacker he was then played automaticaly on-side.....so how do we determine that nowadays is what I want to know, in other words does the term played-on no longer apply in this day and age YES or NO...which, with the greatest respect, wasn't covered in your reply.
I stand by my opinion and that of a fair number of ex-players/TV pundits that it's 'more' than a little confusing and is purely left to interpretation on the day, or so it would seem, which I personally find unsatisfactory.
No. It is essentially covered by the fact it's where the player is when the ball is played. In the interpretation I gave if he is an offside position when the ball is played then it doesn't matter whether it comes off a defender or not (or played-on as you state).
Where this really comes under scrutiny is if, for example, the ball is played toward the wide right of the pitch and there is a player in an offside position wide left, well away from the play and therefore considered inactive, and only by the ball taking a major deviation off a defender toward that player could he be considered active.
In short when the ball was initially played he was most defintely inactive and only became active when the ball came off a defender.
This calls the whole active/inactive 'if he's not active why is he on the pitch' thing into question.
Like it or not the law allows for interpretion so I would take the direction of travel of the ball into account to help me with active/inactive question.
It's all down to the position a player is in at the moment the ball is played. and whether in the opinion of the officials, the player is active or inactive at that moment.
On Saturday, the assistant flagged the Burnley player in an offside position immediately the ball was played forward by his team mate.
That was the moment that the player was deemed in an offside position and active by the assistant.
The fact that the ball was later played by a defender was not the issue.
I see(I think), so you CAN be played on then IF an official deems/interprets that you are not interfering with play....but then I thought that if you're not interfering with play that you wern't offside anyway....so what's the difference......arghhhhh!!!
Guys...at the expense of boring the pants off of those readers who either already 'think' they have the answer and those who aren't that interested in the first place I think I'd better back off here...I remain unconvinced and as confused as ever.
I bet I'm not alone!
Comments
More worrying was the fact that our players just seemed to stop when the flag went up. What is it they tdrum into you when you are a kid, "play to the whistle"!
I agree with all of that. Too often Referees bottle that situation or just stop play.
Great goal though and he skinned Primus good and proper
The offside rule/rules at present are a dogs dinner....simply because it's now left open to interpretation, which in years gone by was NOT the case...it was pretty clear.....that's not to say mistakes were still not made but the rules were clear to one and all.
We now have a situation where a goal in one stadium is allowed and in another a few miles down the road is disallowed purely because of the officials differing interpretation.... a very poor situation if you ask me.
IMHO....the was he or was he not 'played on' issue needs to be nailed on once and for all so it's clear to everyone.
I'm guessing that the ref thought the lino was flagging because he thought the flick on was from their player, but when he went over to check the lino told him that he was flagging for the initial ball forward - so goal disallowed.
Come to think of it, as I am typing that I don't know whether it makes any sense or not - so you're right, it's a bloody mess!
I care because it clearly needs sorting out once and for all...can't see why you don't care just because on this occassion we happened to profit from the interpretation of these particular officials....on another day we may well have been less fortunate!
Are you saying that the played on rule is no longer applicable...if so I (and countless others) don't know that?
The one that gets most people is when a centre forward heads the ball from a goal keepers drop kick when there appears to be 2 or even 3 defenders behind him, however when the kick was taken the forward was offside.
I insist on running the line for my boys football as no one else seems to understand the law and just stick their flag up whenever a player is in an offside posistion regardless of whether he is active or not.
"Let's just keep it simple, if he's offside he's offside" is the usual grunt you get.
Use the rule properley and it keeps the game flowing.
The offside law says that a player is in an offside position at the moment the ball is played.
The Burnley player was clearly in an offside position at the moment the ball was played forward by his team mate - that was the point of issue, regardless of the fact that the ball later came off a defender.
It was done perfectly yesterday, the lino flagged, the ref was unsure if his flagging was due to the knock on by the CAFC player, or from the initial pass, so allowed play to continue, then check with the lino what he was flagging for. This is how things SHOULD be done.
Seems perfectly simple to me.
Good refereeing and linesmanship.
Does anyone know this for sure....I freely admit I don't know now...I thought I did but it would seem several of you here are saying that part of the law no longer applies............if that's the case it's news to me??
Confusion seems to occur when there is a sizeable gap between kick and nod on and they might be considered as different phases of play.
When, as was the case on Saturday, it all happens extremely quickly there is no argument. However, if for example, a kick takes a long time to be played on and the player who was in an offside position recovers to an onside position very quickly, the head on may be considered a separate phase of play.
This evening I have to teach the offside law to a room of 30-odd people and I'll hold my hands up, I'm not 100% which is the definitive answer (that's if there is one). I've spoken to several more senior referees about this and I've not had a single definitive answer.
For me, it's offside every time and I agree it was handled perfectly on Saturday - let play unfold then speak to the lino afterwards - the decision can be overturned up to the point of restarting play.
I stand by my opinion and that of a fair number of ex-players/TV pundits that it's 'more' than a little confusing and is purely left to interpretation on the day, or so it would seem, which I personally find unsatisfactory.
Where this really comes under scrutiny is if, for example, the ball is played toward the wide right of the pitch and there is a player in an offside position wide left, well away from the play and therefore considered inactive, and only by the ball taking a major deviation off a defender toward that player could he be considered active.
In short when the ball was initially played he was most defintely inactive and only became active when the ball came off a defender.
This calls the whole active/inactive 'if he's not active why is he on the pitch' thing into question.
Like it or not the law allows for interpretion so I would take the direction of travel of the ball into account to help me with active/inactive question.
On Saturday, the assistant flagged the Burnley player in an offside position immediately the ball was played forward by his team mate.
That was the moment that the player was deemed in an offside position and active by the assistant.
The fact that the ball was later played by a defender was not the issue.
As for ex-pros/pundits, well they are just too lazy to learn the law.
Guys...at the expense of boring the pants off of those readers who either already 'think' they have the answer and those who aren't that interested in the first place I think I'd better back off here...I remain unconvinced and as confused as ever.
I bet I'm not alone!
Chirpy, you of course know everything pal...some of us are unfortunately thick as shyte!