DA9 nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo mate Cheerie Blair is looking into it mate and she is "worried" so as long as there is a few quid to be made out of it rest assured either she or the "Human rights" industry she represents will be out there fighting for us all.
What's the point. To do anything about this would mean tackling too many sacred cows. Lets all jusr watch as knives turn into guns over the next decade.
did u see in paper the docs says some of the guys killed have been in 1 2 or 3 times before with stab wounds......some yes in some cases it was wrong place wrong time but a % are not...so come down heavy...it will be the only way
Carrying a knife should carry a mandatory 3 year prision sentence for a first offence and 5 years for any subsequent offence. No if's or buts, if you're caught with a knife you do 3 or 5 years.
As much as the USA is fecked, you have to love the 3 strikes and your out rule. 2 GBH's then even shop lifting or owt then its a maditory 15 years. That would mix things up a little. Its getting more like the states now over hear so why not follow there example. Get all the terroists and illegal imergrants out of prison and deported back to there homeland that would free up the prisons for the 3 strike offenders! just a thought.
I saw an old Uni friend a few weeks back who's now a Snr Registrar A&E Surgeon at KCH, Denmark Hill and he was said that for every 10 weekend emergency calls there are, at least 7-8 will be knife/gun attack related. He said although being doing the job for 3-4 years now, nothing will ever prepare you for the emotions you go through when giving a 16 year old open heart massage on an operating table and you cant do anything for them. He's had to tell 3 or 4 families this year alone that a loved one had failed to make it.
Unfortunately, I cant see things getting better but something has to be done. It's getting ridiculous now. What ever happened to the good old "leave it mate, we've had a drink..." and just an old fashioned slap? They must come down heavy on these thugs. Anyone carrying a knife should be sent down immediately.
Also, as soon as you commit a crime, lets make it mandatory that by committing that crime, you are exempt from the Human Rights Act. Let's get this country back on the straight and narrow before its too late.
Perhaps someone can help me with a mathematical problem.
There are more people in prison than ever before - places up from 60k to 80k since 1997 - and I believe we have the highest prison population per capita in Europe. At the same time, recorded crime is falling and has been for a number of years (both on police figures and on the British Crime Survey, which I believe is compiled from the victims of crime rather than the police).
Forget whether you think it is actually falling and the figures are wrong (a point that can be demolished in respect of murder, which is almost always reported), because we should be able to agree that it's only recorded crime that can generate possibly prison sentences.
If recorded crime is down and the prison population is up, how can the common perception that sentences are getting shorter possibly be true?
Some of the recent deaths have been truly shocking and as a society we do need to think urgently about what is behind this. If it's sentencing policy then let's address that. Perhaps we are locking the wrong people up in terms of offences commited.
But if sentences are already getting longer, as the maths seems to suggest, and the problem is getting worse, as is the perception, then it's perhaps too easy to assume that making them even longer will be a significant part of any solution. I personally think it's much more about parenting and social values, but they are a lot more difficult to fix.
watched alot of the very recent stuff on TV re this and to be honest its very very easy to sesaw between "the short sharp shock and hit em hard" mob to there "there has to be an answer and society is to blame".
i feel that alot of these ganstas dont see themselves as part of any society other than the one that they have created. Its all very well to say they have been EXCLUDED but they have also chosen to be excluded.
They see thewhole thing as week, from schools,courts, prison etcetc they are not worried about going inside and they aint worried about being deported (if they can be). If we get tough will it stop ? will they stop ? dont see it myself. Unless "society" changes and starts to care about its individuals and basic humanity then nothing will change. Whose soceity are we to follow as the "mecca" ? there are so many differant cultures with very very differant fundermental core values that whose is the correct one is no easy path. People are becoming more and more insulated. We have always had poverty and always had gangs and violence, whats been lost is the basic respect for humanity.
well GH there not going to be affraid of being locked up, mate of mine just been released (well last year) he done a 2 stretch, he said he had a playstation in his room/cell and easily once a week had madonalds smuggled in!! No wonder its no deterent! Easy easy easy he said, he also mentions that if he really were a proper crook (he got roped into driving a lorry of dodgy stuff but really he aint a bad lad known him for years) it would be awesome cos of the contacts he made! They need to make prisons prisons again, bollox to all this human rights bollox!
Recorded crime is down because the police deliberately make it as difficult as possible to report any crime that cannot be readily investigated from a database. Local police stations are closed and it takes an age to get through on the telephone.
Unless you need a crime number for insurance purposes if the criminal damage costs more than the excess on your insurance then you simply won't bother to report a crime you know won't be investigated anyway as it is too difficult for the reasons outlined above.
You know and I know that recorded "proper" crime ie crime against the person is on the up and up it is only the overall figure that is down. I had my wing mirror vandalised recently. I didn't bother to report it because previous experience in trying to report crimes has taught me it would be a waste of life. I'm sure I'm not the only one to think this so in such circumstances is it any wonder that overall recorded crime is down?
Prison populaton is up because prisons are full of people who are not "proper" criminals. Old ladies who don't pay their council tax, fine defaulters and the homeless with a vagrancy or other "nuisance" convictions fill our prisons.
Why can't our supposed betters give these type of people "community" sentences? There will then be room to lock up the murderers, rapists, muggers and burglars that actually blight their victims lives both by the actual crime and the lifelong fear of once again falling victim to such crime.
I say bring in penal regiments set up on isolated islands off the Scottish coast. They have to stay there for three years and 'if 'and only 'if' they are deemed suitable a further two years in the military. If they don't make the grade to move on then it's a further three years in the penal regiments or if they do make it into the regulars and fook up whilst there, then they are shunted back to the islands in seconds flat. Find the nastiest hardest mother f***ing NCO's/officers in the country to oversee the camps (pay them a good wage), and we'll see how many of these guys come 'home' gangsters...my guess would be, not that many.
I know it's only a television program but I thought that the Bad Lads Army program had the right idea.
At the end of it, it was intresting how many of the blokes that were on there said that they actually enjoyed the discipline side of things and I seem to recall that quite a few went on to sign up for the army.
Perhaps the answer is a boot camp type environment that will instill some much needed discipline but will also teach a skill to help them get a job when they get out.
Said it before, as someone who has experienced it first hand, Prison just does not bother this kind of person.
They see it as a way of life and Prison is an inconvenience, rather than a punishment or a chance to change their lives.
There are a hell of a lot of foreign nationals in prison, this doesnt help the figures.
good point...~this type of person.~.....they are simply wired up differant..they have differant morals pride respect......they do not value life like others.....
Now that I am safely past the age where it would affect me I can confidently predict that reinstatement of national service would sort everything out...;-)
If caught in posseion of a knife 3 years inside. 2nd time 5 years. Maybe this would not deter the thugs from once they go inside to go back to crime once they get out, but at least then the majority would have less worries than they do now about walking down any street at any time of the day, and it would be seen to those who are not opening breakking the law that the politicans are on 'our side'. The current situation cannot be allowed to continue, altough I feel with the current politicans in power (both sides of the house) the subject will continue to be fudged.
If on the other hand your happen to put the wrong rubbish in a bin then they know how to show you who is in power....................
As someone who has gone to a lot of stabbings, and some where the person has died, it is getting worse.
I went to the triple stabbing in Erith in the first week of this year where those involved were late teens, and I have been to a stabbing where the injured person was in his 50's. But it seems that although the people getting injured are from different backgrounds, the people doing them are very similar types.
Nearly everyone knows the person who stabbed them. Stranger attacks are rare.
They are they under 20's who don't really care about property or life. They have grown up without guidance, and hope. They have ne respect for law. They do not fear getting caught, or the penalty if they do.
So the answer is the create the fear again, this can be done by tougher sentences when they are caught. Also teach them the respect. Get them out working. Let them see how it feels when after painting or cleaning the street for 8 hours how they feel when someone destroys their hard work. Let them know how the normal person feels!
[cite]Posted By: Airman Brown[/cite] I personally think it's much more about parenting and social values, but they are a lot more difficult to fix.
You're bang on there. I have my own theory on the problem and its completely down to parenting, or lack there of.
It is such a wide problem - parenting is one element, parenting skills have been lost. We learn to parent from our parents, primarily, we all say I would never do that with my kids and I would do that. But there seems to be a generation of parents who do not parent, and they create problems for the next generation. we laugh at the Government proposals for parenting classes, but for some there is no other way to learn how to parent. Then there is the question of respect for authority Police, teachers, Parents, referees, laws that favour perpetrators rather than victims, television that glorifies mis behaviour and laddish behaviour. I don't know what the answer is, but we do appear to be moving towards a bankrupt society!!! that said there are still more good than bad
With regard to prison numbers, do they also include remand prisoners and asylum seekers?
[cite]Posted By: Airman Brown[/cite]I personally think it's much more about parenting and social values, but they are a lot more difficult to fix.
You're bang on there. I have my own theory on the problem and its completely down to parenting, or lack there of.
It is such a wide problem - parenting is one element, parenting skills have been lost. We learn to parent from our parents, primarily, we all say I would never do that with my kids and I would do that. But there seems to be a generation of parents who do not parent, and they create problems for the next generation. we laugh at the Government proposals for parenting classes, but for some there is no other way to learn how to parent. Then there is the question of respect for authority Police, teachers, Parents, referees, laws that favour perpetrators rather than victims, television that glorifies mis behaviour and laddish behaviour. I don't know what the answer is, but we do appear to be moving towards a bankrupt society!!! that said there are still more good than bad
With regard to prison numbers, do they also include remand prisoners and asylum seekers?
Yep, anyone in the system is counted, even those on tag on the outside I believe, as officially you are still a prisoner, but a very trusted one, ie, out in the community.
I really feel for Brook Kinsella, obviously hurting, but no amount of arty badges and marches are going to help, these kids wont listen, no matter how articulate she is on it.
A witness saw a kid with "an 18 inch knife" before the stabbing in Thornton Heath. The owner later put it in some lads chest and stomach.
I am starting to be quite staggered by all this. The victim (not from the area) was apparently running from a group of lads (and at least one girl) - and it may be that his only crime was not being from "the hood".
So someone is prepared to stab him to death (because even the thickest kid must know that if you stab someone in the chest and/or stomach with an 18" knife they are going to die) for this.
What the fuck is going on? We have bred a generation of killer kids who will murder someone over the slighest thing. I am fucking sick of hearing about shit like this - but what can we do?
Charlton Road outside Cherry Orchard estate's all sealed off, police and ambulances around...
... it was a bit of strange sort of a relief to find a young lad had "only" run in front of the bus and met his maker, rather than anything more shocking and violent :-(
[cite]Posted By: bigstemarra[/cite]What the fuck is going on? We have bred a generation of killer kids who will murder someone over the slighest thing. I am fucking sick of hearing about shit like this - but what can we do?
Noooooooooooo! Its not a generation,its a group, the majority of kids are ok. The media don#t tell us about the kids that did not go out and kill today, that helped an old ladyt across the road, voluntariloy did some kind of community work.
Despite the horrible news we hear every day, we must not forget that the majority are good, otherwise we will all just hide in doors
Well this thread never gonna end, in this current climate.... I try bringing my kids up in a church environment, tough decisions to make all round. Dont be affraid to talk with other families (and compare notes), its hard bringing up kids and we have to adapt constantly and learn (there is no real user manual on this subject). You have to put your families first and show as much love as possible (how hard is that, lads?). Lead by example and show them (the kids) how much we care. Get involved in their schools, encourage clubs (that show team spirit, discipline, sharing and working together) Show interest in what they do, then take them to Charlton (as punishment!)!!!!
Comments
Unfortunately, I cant see things getting better but something has to be done. It's getting ridiculous now. What ever happened to the good old "leave it mate, we've had a drink..." and just an old fashioned slap? They must come down heavy on these thugs. Anyone carrying a knife should be sent down immediately.
Also, as soon as you commit a crime, lets make it mandatory that by committing that crime, you are exempt from the Human Rights Act. Let's get this country back on the straight and narrow before its too late.
There are more people in prison than ever before - places up from 60k to 80k since 1997 - and I believe we have the highest prison population per capita in Europe. At the same time, recorded crime is falling and has been for a number of years (both on police figures and on the British Crime Survey, which I believe is compiled from the victims of crime rather than the police).
Forget whether you think it is actually falling and the figures are wrong (a point that can be demolished in respect of murder, which is almost always reported), because we should be able to agree that it's only recorded crime that can generate possibly prison sentences.
If recorded crime is down and the prison population is up, how can the common perception that sentences are getting shorter possibly be true?
Some of the recent deaths have been truly shocking and as a society we do need to think urgently about what is behind this. If it's sentencing policy then let's address that. Perhaps we are locking the wrong people up in terms of offences commited.
But if sentences are already getting longer, as the maths seems to suggest, and the problem is getting worse, as is the perception, then it's perhaps too easy to assume that making them even longer will be a significant part of any solution. I personally think it's much more about parenting and social values, but they are a lot more difficult to fix.
You're bang on there. I have my own theory on the problem and its completely down to parenting, or lack there of.
i feel that alot of these ganstas dont see themselves as part of any society other than the one that they have created. Its all very well to say they have been EXCLUDED but they have also chosen to be excluded.
They see thewhole thing as week, from schools,courts, prison etcetc they are not worried about going inside and they aint worried about being deported (if they can be). If we get tough will it stop ? will they stop ? dont see it myself.
Unless "society" changes and starts to care about its individuals and basic humanity then nothing will change. Whose soceity are we to follow as the "mecca" ? there are so many differant cultures with very very differant fundermental core values that whose is the correct one is no easy path. People are becoming more and more insulated.
We have always had poverty and always had gangs and violence, whats been lost is the basic respect for humanity.
Unless you need a crime number for insurance purposes if the criminal damage costs more than the excess on your insurance then you simply won't bother to report a crime you know won't be investigated anyway as it is too difficult for the reasons outlined above.
You know and I know that recorded "proper" crime ie crime against the person is on the up and up it is only the overall figure that is down. I had my wing mirror vandalised recently. I didn't bother to report it because previous experience in trying to report crimes has taught me it would be a waste of life. I'm sure I'm not the only one to think this so in such circumstances is it any wonder that overall recorded crime is down?
Prison populaton is up because prisons are full of people who are not "proper" criminals. Old ladies who don't pay their council tax, fine defaulters and the homeless with a vagrancy or other "nuisance" convictions fill our prisons.
Why can't our supposed betters give these type of people "community" sentences? There will then be room to lock up the murderers, rapists, muggers and burglars that actually blight their victims lives both by the actual crime and the lifelong fear of once again falling victim to such crime.
They have to stay there for three years and 'if 'and only 'if' they are deemed suitable a further two years in the military.
If they don't make the grade to move on then it's a further three years in the penal regiments or if they do make it into the regulars and fook up whilst there, then they are shunted back to the islands in seconds flat.
Find the nastiest hardest mother f***ing NCO's/officers in the country to oversee the camps (pay them a good wage), and we'll see how many of these guys come 'home' gangsters...my guess would be, not that many.
At the end of it, it was intresting how many of the blokes that were on there said that they actually enjoyed the discipline side of things and I seem to recall that quite a few went on to sign up for the army.
Perhaps the answer is a boot camp type environment that will instill some much needed discipline but will also teach a skill to help them get a job when they get out.
They see it as a way of life and Prison is an inconvenience, rather than a punishment or a chance to change their lives.
There are a hell of a lot of foreign nationals in prison, this doesnt help the figures.
If on the other hand your happen to put the wrong rubbish in a bin then they know how to show you who is in power....................
I went to the triple stabbing in Erith in the first week of this year where those involved were late teens, and I have been to a stabbing where the injured person was in his 50's. But it seems that although the people getting injured are from different backgrounds, the people doing them are very similar types.
Nearly everyone knows the person who stabbed them. Stranger attacks are rare.
They are they under 20's who don't really care about property or life. They have grown up without guidance, and hope. They have ne respect for law. They do not fear getting caught, or the penalty if they do.
So the answer is the create the fear again, this can be done by tougher sentences when they are caught. Also teach them the respect. Get them out working. Let them see how it feels when after painting or cleaning the street for 8 hours how they feel when someone destroys their hard work. Let them know how the normal person feels!
It is such a wide problem - parenting is one element, parenting skills have been lost. We learn to parent from our parents, primarily, we all say I would never do that with my kids and I would do that. But there seems to be a generation of parents who do not parent, and they create problems for the next generation. we laugh at the Government proposals for parenting classes, but for some there is no other way to learn how to parent. Then there is the question of respect for authority Police, teachers, Parents, referees, laws that favour perpetrators rather than victims, television that glorifies mis behaviour and laddish behaviour. I don't know what the answer is, but we do appear to be moving towards a bankrupt society!!! that said there are still more good than bad
With regard to prison numbers, do they also include remand prisoners and asylum seekers?
Yep, anyone in the system is counted, even those on tag on the outside I believe, as officially you are still a prisoner, but a very trusted one, ie, out in the community.
I really feel for Brook Kinsella, obviously hurting, but no amount of arty badges and marches are going to help, these kids wont listen, no matter how articulate she is on it.
And another.
I am starting to be quite staggered by all this. The victim (not from the area) was apparently running from a group of lads (and at least one girl) - and it may be that his only crime was not being from "the hood".
So someone is prepared to stab him to death (because even the thickest kid must know that if you stab someone in the chest and/or stomach with an 18" knife they are going to die) for this.
What the fuck is going on? We have bred a generation of killer kids who will murder someone over the slighest thing. I am fucking sick of hearing about shit like this - but what can we do?
... it was a bit of strange sort of a relief to find a young lad had "only" run in front of the bus and met his maker, rather than anything more shocking and violent :-(
Noooooooooooo! Its not a generation,its a group, the majority of kids are ok. The media don#t tell us about the kids that did not go out and kill today, that helped an old ladyt across the road, voluntariloy did some kind of community work.
Despite the horrible news we hear every day, we must not forget that the majority are good, otherwise we will all just hide in doors
I try bringing my kids up in a church environment, tough decisions to make all round.
Dont be affraid to talk with other families (and compare notes), its hard bringing up kids and we have to adapt constantly and learn (there is no real user manual on this subject).
You have to put your families first and show as much love as possible (how hard is that, lads?).
Lead by example and show them (the kids) how much we care.
Get involved in their schools, encourage clubs (that show team spirit, discipline, sharing and working together)
Show interest in what they do, then take them to Charlton (as punishment!)!!!!