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4-5-1 anybody ?

edited January 2008 in General Charlton
Surely now we can't go back to that system - even away from home. Shame that side didn't play against Colchester as I'm sure we would have an extra 3 points to our tally.

no looking back. 4-4-2 from now on. Personel may come and go but if we can play like that for the next 20 games or so Icant see why we cant pick up 12 wins and a few draws - another 40 points should see us alright.

I will be there on tuesday - although I cant now make the 4th round game but hopefully we will get to the 5th round and a decent cup run.

Comments

  • Can't argue with that except that if Reid is an automatic choice when he comes back (I've long argued that he would not be as far as I am concerned) then 4-5-1 is the formation that accomodates him in the only position that he is effective (in the middle).
    Personally I'd bite Keane's hand off if Sunderland made a half sensible offer for Reid.
  • Depends how the next 2 away games go really. If we play 4-4-2 and lose both then i would say revert back to 4-5-1 as it's served us well so far but obviously keep this formation at home. Would like to see the same team against Watford and really give it a go, should be an exciting game. Actually same team except Thomas for Ambrose for me
  • This is a crazy point; that you can never play 4-5-1 even if you do not have the right players to play 4-4-2.

    Earlier this season, before Reid was injured, and before we had full backs with strong running capability, we needed to counter this with more bodies in midfield. With Reid as our play maker, we relied upon getting him in the game, often wide left and dropping balls in to Big Chris, with ZZ getting up to support when possible. This worked quite well, especially away from home when we could control games better and counter attack. Pards had little choice, in my view to keep going back to 4-5-1 because when he tried 4-4-2, like against QPR, it failed. WIth Reid injured/knackered/marked out of the game, we failed to be as penetrative and teams prevented Big Chris from being an effective target man. In the absence of Tody who could have made a difference, we ran out of options.

    We are in a much better position now in that we can play either and have the players to do it. There may be occasions when we are away from home and need to bolster midfield, to switch to 4-5-1 during a game.

    I would stick with 4-4-2 especially at home now because we have at last got pace down the flanks and in attack.
  • Yes I'd play 4-5-1 in some away games and even in some homes games if it suited the players we had available and was the best option to beat the opposition.

    Sticking dogmatically to 4-4-2 is a silly as doing the same with 4-5-1.


    I think Big Chris has and will continue to play an important role this season. How good was it to be able to bring on two strikers with 20 goals between them this season already?

    Not sure about selling Reid unless the money can be spent to really improve the squad. What is good is that we are not totally reliant on a very good passing player who scores and creates but one who has a poor injury record and lacks real pace.

    Whetther by luck or judegement we now have two full backs who give the team a whole different look. Youga in particular has impressed me. I still think Moo2 needs more games to settle in but it is frightening just how good he could be.
  • Ignoring 451 away from home is madness. If Ipswich had changed their style/formation on their travels they'd be up there with West Brom instead of commiting suicide every other weekend. Like Henry says it's up to Pardew to choose the formation and personnel to do a job and against alot of teams a counter attacking 451 can be very effective. Having said that it's good to know that we can play an attacking 442 successfully.

    As for selling Reid i'd say it would have to be an unbelievable offer to tempt us. We're probably going to end up in the playoffs this year and Reid is exactly the type of player who could win us those crunch games, in fact even when he's having an off day his presence on the pitch and the obligatory tight marking gives a lot more space to our midfielders to exploit. Anyway i suppose it'll all be down to the state of our finances and our medical teams long term opinions of his fitness that swing it and they're something most of us can only speculate on.

    S.
  • reid is the person i'm finding it hard to fit into our new 4-4-2 formation. we obviously need zz in the team with a defensive man alongside him (holland or semedo), pushing reid out to the left, with one of thomas, ambrose or sam on the right. or do we go back to 4-5-1 and play zz just behind varney?
  • Nothing wrong with 4 5 1

    Ambrose,Mcleod,Varney,Sam

    Youga,ZZ,Bougy,Holland,M002

    McCarthy
  • [cite]Posted By: Imissthepeanutman[/cite]Nothing wrong with 4 5 1

    Ambrose,Mcleod,Varney,Sam

    Youga,ZZ,Bougy,Holland,M002

    McCarthy
    LOL. Very good mate. Not sure I'd pick Paddy as the sole defender though. I'll go with Cory Gibbs.
  • [cite]Posted By: SantaClaus[/cite]As for selling Reid i'd say it would have to be an unbelievable offer to tempt us. We're probably going to end up in the playoffs this year and Reid is exactly the type of player who could win us those crunch games, in fact even when he's having an off day his presence on the pitch and the obligatory tight marking gives a lot more space to our midfielders to exploit.

    That is an excellent point SC. Selling Reid would have to be for a huge price. At least though we have shown that we can play well without him.
  • I've never really quite got my head around what is so important with playing with a set rigid formation, whether its 442, 451, 352 etc.

    There are so many factors that go into deciding a formation, but particularly where you strengths and weaknesses lie, and how they compare to how the oppositions strengths and weaknesses are. If the players are intelligent and flexible enough, you should be able to change the formation to suit the phase of the play that the game is currently in.

    The side i manage, we sometimes maintain the same shape through the whole game, other times it will change 3 or 4 times to try and get that bit of edge and take advantage of an opposition weakness. Managers can dick around with formations as much or as little as they like, the most important thing is that the players fully understand where and how they should be playing in a set role, and more importantly, the reason for changing and be able to adapt quickly.

    There are around a dozen different formational systems that can played on the pitch, and if we're smart we'll be using most of them throughout a season. A set rigid formation will only work for a short span unless you are far better than everyone else, but other teams will study and learn how to nullify you.

    Its why teams sometimes see a sharp change of form with a change in formation, but very rarely will this lead to a lastable change.
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  • [cite]Posted By: ross[/cite]reid is the person i'm finding it hard to fit into our new 4-4-2 formation. we obviously need zz in the team with a defensive man alongside him (holland or semedo), pushing reid out to the left, with one of thomas, ambrose or sam on the right. or do we go back to 4-5-1 and play zz just behind varney?

    I don't think Pards will find any problems fitting Reid into a 4-4-2.

    Now that we've got young fast & energetic fullbacks bombing up field on the overlaps, and Holland & ZZ pulling strings in the middle, the only position to play Reidy is where he's played nearly all his matches: left side midfield.

    Sure, he won't give much cover to Youga (but then neither would Ambrose or JT) - he'll just play the role that Ambrose played against Blackpool. He won't have electric pace but Youga, if he has cover from others, can do the overlapping on that side, while Reidy provides that bit of flair & guile linking up with the front runners.

    So no real reason why we need to play 4-5-1 just to accomodate Reidy.

    These 2 young fullbacks with Varney & Izzy (or Dickson), have injected pace in the side that means we can play Reidy in a 4-4-2.
  • For me, the formation is much more important when you haven't got the ball than when you have. Its defensive shape in the main.

    For example, if you are playing 4-4-2 and your full backs are supporting the attack when you've got the ball, what is your formation 2-6-2, 3-5-2, 2-4-4? The link up play is most important when you are attacking.

    On the other hand when they've got the ball, its a different story, lining up with two banks of four defensively in a 4-4-2, or with the extra defensive man in the holding role, sweeping in front of the back four in a 4-5-1.
  • The midfield that played to day is too lightweight to be played against better sides or away from home, even a very average Blackpool side managed to go through ZZ and Holland like they weren't there on more than one occassion.
  • I agree that ZZ & Holland are a bit lightweight - but they are in your face & deny opponents the space to work the ball on the ground.

    West Brom will probably let us play tomorrow night.

    Watford & Stoke will be big & physical.....but they may very well bypass the midfield area anyway with their long ball tactics. Up at their place this season, Stoke couldn't contain Moo2 until they clogged him out of the game - which suggests they won't like us running at them with pace.
  • [cite]Posted By: golfaddick[/cite]no looking back. 4-4-2 from now on. Personel may come and go but if we can play like that for the next 20 games or so Icant see why we cant pick up 12 wins and a few draws - another 40 points should see us alright.

    Does this count as that rare item - a positive golfie statement?
  • edited January 2008
    I'm sorry but I cannot accept that Holland had a good game, I can't remember a single tackle he made in the game but that is his main job. Blackpool made it to the edge of our box far too easily and it was only a lack of quality up front that prevented them from punishing us. Semedo actually puts his foot in and will be able to break quicker on counter attacks.
  • So what more has Holland got to do to get the recognition his performance deserved?
  • Golfie - This irrational hatred of 4-5-1 and your inability, or stubbornness, not to accept the benefits and flexibility of the formation, despite having enjoyed a lot of success with away from home, is really rather tiresome I'm afraid.

    Still, as your posts go I suppose this ranks up there as the most positive one I've read, so whilst you still have some work to do IMO, I applaud you for bothering to post for once after a victory.

    Long may this continue and long may your glass continue to fill up
  • [cite]Posted By: Addickson's God[/cite]I'm sorry but I cannot accept that Holland had a good game, I can't remember a single tackle he made in the game but that is his main job. Blackpool made it to the edge of our box far too easily and it was only a lack of quality up front that prevented them from punishing us. Semedo actually puts his foot in and will be able to break quicker on counter attacks.

    I remember him making a few tackles and linking up the play quite nicely. Holland was a big disappointment for me for his first couple of years with the club but I do wonder if he's still paying for that now, I think he had a good game on Saturday and has been a consistently good performer since coming back into the team. I was pleased his name was sung as he clapped the covered end after the game (what was left of it at least!) as I think he's been underestimated over the past 12 months or so...
  • [cite]Posted By: Addickson's God[/cite]I'm sorry but I cannot accept that Holland had a good game, I can't remember a single tackle he made in the game but that is his main job. Blackpool made it to the edge of our box far too easily and it was only a lack of quality up front that prevented them from punishing us. Semedo actually puts his foot in and will be able to break quicker on counter attacks.

    I cant accept that.... This passage of play optimises the bloke..........

    Toward the end of the 2nd half, Holland had a good shot from 20 yards saved by their keeper. The ball broke to a Blackpool player who lofted it up to their strikers, McCarthy headed clear from just outside our D and who was there, having covered 40 odd yards to pick up the loose ball?.........Matt Holland.
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  • [cite]Posted By: PassItToLeaburn[/cite]
    [cite]Posted By: Addickson's God[/cite]I'm sorry but I cannot accept that Holland had a good game, I can't remember a single tackle he made in the game but that is his main job. Blackpool made it to the edge of our box far too easily and it was only a lack of quality up front that prevented them from punishing us. Semedo actually puts his foot in and will be able to break quicker on counter attacks.

    I remember him making a few tackles and linking up the play quite nicely. Holland was a big disappointment for me for his first couple of years with the club but I do wonder if he's still paying for that now, I think he had a good game on Saturday and has been a consistently good performer since coming back into the team. I was pleased his name was sung as he clapped the covered end after the game (what was left of it at least!) as I think he's been underestimated over the past 12 months or so...

    I'm not a fan if Holland, however credit where it's due, thought he had a good game on saturday.

    My problem with Holland has always been that when we come under sustained pressure he drifts out the game, runs about a lot without actually doing anything.

    Against better teams or away from home, he would leave the defence exposed and so I agree with AG, I think that Semedo is a better option if we want to play 4-4-2.
  • away from home 4-5-1 is often the best option - you've only got to look at our results this season to see that
    at Watford on Saturday, I'd be more than happy to see us go 4-5-1
  • I can accept the logic of 442 at home and 451 away.

    But please keep the same 11 players.
  • [cite]Posted By: Barn Door Lisbie[/cite]My problem with Holland has always been that when we come under sustained pressure he drifts out the game, runs about a lot without actually doing anything.

    I think that he has been like that, especially in the Prem. The way he has played recently is what I expected him to be like when Curbs signed him. Maybe injuries and the sheer physical power of some of the players he was up against affected him, however his play in recent games, especially on Saturday has been exemplary.
  • [cite]Posted By: Oggy Red[/cite]
    [cite]Posted By: ross[/cite]reid is the person i'm finding it hard to fit into our new 4-4-2 formation. we obviously need zz in the team with a defensive man alongside him (holland or semedo), pushing reid out to the left, with one of thomas, ambrose or sam on the right. or do we go back to 4-5-1 and play zz just behind varney?

    I don't think Pards will find any problems fitting Reid into a 4-4-2.

    Now that we've got young fast & energetic fullbacks bombing up field on the overlaps, and Holland & ZZ pulling strings in the middle, the only position to play Reidy is where he's played nearly all his matches: left side midfield.

    Sure, he won't give much cover to Youga (but then neither would Ambrose or JT) - he'll just play the role that Ambrose played against Blackpool. He won't have electric pace but Youga, if he has cover from others, can do the overlapping on that side, while Reidy provides that bit of flair & guile linking up with the front runners.

    So no real reason why we need to play 4-5-1 just to accomodate Reidy.

    These 2 young fullbacks with Varney & Izzy (or Dickson), have injected pace in the side that means we can play Reidy in a 4-4-2.

    good points actually. totally throws my idea out of thr window!

    who would you play on the right then?
  • [cite]Posted By: Imissthepeanutman[/cite]I can accept the logic of 442 at home and 451 away.

    But please keep the same 11 players.

    exactly !!!!!, just pull Varney out wide right when we are defending !
  • [cite]Posted By: ross[/cite]
    [cite]Posted By: Oggy Red[/cite]
    [cite]Posted By: ross[/cite]reid is the person i'm finding it hard to fit into our new 4-4-2 formation. we obviously need zz in the team with a defensive man alongside him (holland or semedo), pushing reid out to the left, with one of thomas, ambrose or sam on the right. or do we go back to 4-5-1 and play zz just behind varney?

    I don't think Pards will find any problems fitting Reid into a 4-4-2.

    Now that we've got young fast & energetic fullbacks bombing up field on the overlaps, and Holland & ZZ pulling strings in the middle, the only position to play Reidy is where he's played nearly all his matches: left side midfield.

    Sure, he won't give much cover to Youga (but then neither would Ambrose or JT) - he'll just play the role that Ambrose played against Blackpool. He won't have electric pace but Youga, if he has cover from others, can do the overlapping on that side, while Reidy provides that bit of flair & guile linking up with the front runners.

    So no real reason why we need to play 4-5-1 just to accomodate Reidy.

    These 2 young fullbacks with Varney & Izzy (or Dickson), have injected pace in the side that means we can play Reidy in a 4-4-2.

    good points actually. totally throws my idea out of thr window!

    who would you play on the right then?

    Well, ross, I'll probably get howls of derision .......I like the idea of Moo2 playing right side midfield with another defender (maybe Magic?) behind him.

    Not that Sam necessarily needs replacing, it's his first decent run in the side after all ...... but I like the speed, directness and crossing ability of Moo2. He would give good cover to the full back behind him and yet not be liable to be exposed & vulnerable at the back himself.
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