The reality of the Millwall game is known if we are honest.
The police made the call and the club have to comply.
The club royally mucked up in how they chose to advertise it and steward it post match vis a vis announcements.
The police will have had a rationale for their decision to not keep Millwall back. We don’t like it because it’s unusual / exceptional and feels unjust but is just that a judgement call we don’t appreciate.
Any promise to learn and/or not repeat can’t be taken as a guarantee as circumstances and personnel can change.
There might be some squirming from the club at the fans forum but I doubt we will learn anything new.
If it was an open Q and A down the club then maybe that would be different
Agreed - that would be more entertaining!
They’d squirm more but you’d still not learn much.
You learn a lot from people’s body language. Normally a good bar
Yes that’s true.
I just don’t think there is much to uncover.
A poor decision / strategy that was poorly executed by both parties.
The club were all /only about maximising ticket sales.
Shame really they didn’t persuade Jones to take cup fixtures more seriously and generate some income that way 😉😆
Not much to uncover you think @valleynick66? How about these questions about how stewarding works for a start?
Do we have a senior executive with overall responsibility for safety
Do we have a safety officer to plan and oversee the event day operation
Do we have supervisory stewards to form a link in the chain of command between the safety officer and all other stewards
Do we have stewards performing locational or functional roles
Do we have a named individual with a responsibility for security?
They are some of the basic requirements of the safety licence as far as i can glean and all reasonable questions in light of what happened/ did not happen at the south east corner at the ed of the match.
Does seem some people on here (various, not just yourself, are willing away the possibility of serious answers to serious safety related issues.
I’m sure we tick all the necessary boxes as a club that are required.
The wrong call was made in most (if not all) people’s opinions and I assume in the clubs too.
Normally games pass without great issue.
A different approach was used for this game which none of us liked and was very badly implemented.
I don’t imagine there is much beyond that in the cold light of day -is my point
Do we need a club scapegoat when as far as I am aware I haven’t seen any reports of violence or serious incidents (Sam Bartram exit aside and separate to the decision to not hold Millwall back) ?
If on the other hand you are seeking answers to the Sam Bartram gate specifically then I speculate this is simply error as ordinarily that exit is not an issue.
That is a genuine lesson learned for the club and police.
There were no "serious incidents" at the Leppings Lane end at Hillsborough .Until there was. Due mainly to complacency and arrogance on the part of the police. The best practice approach is to anticipate potential danger points, with the help of experienced professionals who have worked at the location for many years. Overruling their concerns and imposing an already tried (and failed) process on a venue at the last moment is the very antithesis of best practice.
Absolutely. Anyone who was shuffling down the West Upper stairs for ten minutes because there was a log jam of people at the bottom (closed gates and no guidance) could clearly see it was a ‘serious incident’ waiting to happen
I have enough friends and family that attended the game, and not one have complained about it, and when I asked, it was what you expect when you play Millwall... Yes, it wasn't policed that well, but I am sure there is a very good reason why they are using that method. And likely because, the impact of locking Millwall fans up, will likely fire them up, causing more trouble and damage.
For me, it isn't a big deal - and a lot are using this as an opportunity to have a dig at the club about it's communication.. For me, that has also been fine, they informed prior to the game, they have replied back to CAST letter.. And now awaiting investigation.. I am sure the police and Charlton have bigger fish to fry.. As I mentioned, for a local derby, it passed with little trouble, that will be seen as a success!
I think also the club are making a massive mistake thinking just because fans haven't written to club that it doesn't mean 20K fans who attended aren't angry at what happened. Most fans would have been furious that as Home fans they were treated this way & that it created an unsafe situation which thankfully no one was hurt .Our fans have quite rightly asked why Millwall fans were given special treatment to leave rather than be held back like the majority of clubs do with away fans as we are at The Den. The violence in East Stand-Landsdown rd exit would have been witnessed by 100-150 Charlton fans, so of course vast majority didn't see it & also haven't seen it on social media as they weren't looking for it. I found it easily enough but as I was very close to fan who was kicked & punched lying on the staircase by 5-6 Millwall & even closer to our fan who was trying to passively and reason with Millwall fans and then punched, so i've been vocal on here, written to club, survey etc. I wrote suggesting positively that club in future reduce Millwalls tickets to 1000-1500, raise the price to offset lost revenue, put them in centre of JS & police and steward it properly next time & keep them in for 30-45mins till streets are clear. The Club's SMT & Comms of course knew all this but took a calculated decision to not highlight arrangements before or during the match so to downplay it and likewise the violence in East Stand, hoping that it would go away. Thankfully Lifers have been universally vocal in how our fans were treated & it seems a number have written to the club & expressed their views on the Mickey mouse survey... so lets wait with baited breath for some cynical statement from the club passing the buck. It just a real shame as this whole debacle has undone a lot of good work, as its clear the club's SMT don't care and for all tannoy annoucements thanking fans for getting behind the team, social media posts ramping up attendances, videos of Nathan pumping his fists to travelling supporters & Covered End. When it mattered with 20,000 fans safety and violence against our fans within the ground the SMT & Comms have gone AWOL. The club will have seen responses via emails and survey that the fans aren't happy, so lets see on Friday morning if someone finally within the club has the balls and intelligence to say right "we messed up'..... lets put out a proper statement and explain ourselves. Its not too late for the club to do this, but I'm not holding my breath this will happen. Well done to the clubs SMT & Comms for scoring an own goal just when things were going so well .....
Jesus Christ. Take a day off. Enough already.
Out of interest, fellow Lifer, were you at the match last Saturday ?
It's just that I thought you resided too far away to attend regularly....or at all .
To be honest what’s that got to do with you, whether he attended or not!!
It would give a sense of perspective as being in the crowds on Harvey Gardens after the game was very different to anything I have seen at The Valley, and have not seen any videos of what it was like.
Rubbish. The response was about the repeated posts on here. Nothing to do with the war in Harvey Gardens.
I have enough friends and family that attended the game, and not one have complained about it, and when I asked, it was what you expect when you play Millwall... Yes, it wasn't policed that well, but I am sure there is a very good reason why they are using that method. And likely because, the impact of locking Millwall fans up, will likely fire them up, causing more trouble and damage.
For me, it isn't a big deal - and a lot are using this as an opportunity to have a dig at the club about it's communication.. For me, that has also been fine, they informed prior to the game, they have replied back to CAST letter.. And now awaiting investigation.. I am sure the police and Charlton have bigger fish to fry.. As I mentioned, for a local derby, it passed with little trouble, that will be seen as a success!
If informing prior to the game is updating an old piece on a website with a link to a tweet from the Met then yes they did inform prior to the game.
Honestly, was it that bad? I get it, people was put out of there normal match day routine? It wasn't as if there was a huge riot, fans fighting all over the stadium.. There was a few scuffles, that you would expect in a local derby..
Really question sometimes, do people have nothing better to do, that moan and complain?
Here comes the backlash for this comment.
You clearly put this up to provoke a reaction so i won't dignify it by responding .....
The reality of the Millwall game is known if we are honest.
The police made the call and the club have to comply.
The club royally mucked up in how they chose to advertise it and steward it post match vis a vis announcements.
The police will have had a rationale for their decision to not keep Millwall back. We don’t like it because it’s unusual / exceptional and feels unjust but is just that a judgement call we don’t appreciate.
Any promise to learn and/or not repeat can’t be taken as a guarantee as circumstances and personnel can change.
There might be some squirming from the club at the fans forum but I doubt we will learn anything new.
If it was an open Q and A down the club then maybe that would be different
Agreed - that would be more entertaining!
They’d squirm more but you’d still not learn much.
You learn a lot from people’s body language. Normally a good bar
Yes that’s true.
I just don’t think there is much to uncover.
A poor decision / strategy that was poorly executed by both parties.
The club were all /only about maximising ticket sales.
Shame really they didn’t persuade Jones to take cup fixtures more seriously and generate some income that way 😉😆
Not much to uncover you think @valleynick66? How about these questions about how stewarding works for a start?
Do we have a senior executive with overall responsibility for safety
Do we have a safety officer to plan and oversee the event day operation
Do we have supervisory stewards to form a link in the chain of command between the safety officer and all other stewards
Do we have stewards performing locational or functional roles
Do we have a named individual with a responsibility for security?
They are some of the basic requirements of the safety licence as far as i can glean and all reasonable questions in light of what happened/ did not happen at the south east corner at the ed of the match.
Does seem some people on here (various, not just yourself, are willing away the possibility of serious answers to serious safety related issues.
I’m sure we tick all the necessary boxes as a club that are required.
The wrong call was made in most (if not all) people’s opinions and I assume in the clubs too.
Normally games pass without great issue.
A different approach was used for this game which none of us liked and was very badly implemented.
I don’t imagine there is much beyond that in the cold light of day -is my point
Do we need a club scapegoat when as far as I am aware I haven’t seen any reports of violence or serious incidents (Sam Bartram exit aside and separate to the decision to not hold Millwall back) ?
If on the other hand you are seeking answers to the Sam Bartram gate specifically then I speculate this is simply error as ordinarily that exit is not an issue.
That is a genuine lesson learned for the club and police.
There were no "serious incidents" at the Leppings Lane end at Hillsborough .Until there was. Due mainly to complacency and arrogance on the part of the police. The best practice approach is to anticipate potential danger points, with the help of experienced professionals who have worked at the location for many years. Overruling their concerns and imposing an already tried (and failed) process on a venue at the last moment is the very antithesis of best practice.
There were many “serious incidents” in the Leppings Lane end before 1989, notably at semi finals in 1981, 1987 and 1988.
The reality of the Millwall game is known if we are honest.
The police made the call and the club have to comply.
The club royally mucked up in how they chose to advertise it and steward it post match vis a vis announcements.
The police will have had a rationale for their decision to not keep Millwall back. We don’t like it because it’s unusual / exceptional and feels unjust but is just that a judgement call we don’t appreciate.
Any promise to learn and/or not repeat can’t be taken as a guarantee as circumstances and personnel can change.
There might be some squirming from the club at the fans forum but I doubt we will learn anything new.
U make it sound like it was a one off decision - it happened at our last game against them as well - it’s something that doesn’t happen elsewhere and we shouldn’t stand for it - I’ll be pursuing it further if need be once I get a response from my police complaint as I’ve no faith in cast who completely missed the point
That is the point though. Unique to this fixture. We don’t otherwise see issues or have the relative inconvenience.
Honestly, was it that bad? I get it, people was put out of there normal match day routine? It wasn't as if there was a huge riot, fans fighting all over the stadium.. There was a few scuffles, that you would expect in a local derby..
Really question sometimes, do people have nothing better to do, that moan and complain?
Here comes the backlash for this comment.
You clearly put this up to provoke a reaction so i won't dignify it by responding .....
Even signalled it was rage bait with the final sentence.
Terrible effort - D-
"Here comes the backlash for this comment" is real Facebook mum stuff.
The reality of the Millwall game is known if we are honest.
The police made the call and the club have to comply.
The club royally mucked up in how they chose to advertise it and steward it post match vis a vis announcements.
The police will have had a rationale for their decision to not keep Millwall back. We don’t like it because it’s unusual / exceptional and feels unjust but is just that a judgement call we don’t appreciate.
Any promise to learn and/or not repeat can’t be taken as a guarantee as circumstances and personnel can change.
There might be some squirming from the club at the fans forum but I doubt we will learn anything new.
If it was an open Q and A down the club then maybe that would be different
Agreed - that would be more entertaining!
They’d squirm more but you’d still not learn much.
You learn a lot from people’s body language. Normally a good bar
Yes that’s true.
I just don’t think there is much to uncover.
A poor decision / strategy that was poorly executed by both parties.
The club were all /only about maximising ticket sales.
Shame really they didn’t persuade Jones to take cup fixtures more seriously and generate some income that way 😉😆
Not much to uncover you think @valleynick66? How about these questions about how stewarding works for a start?
Do we have a senior executive with overall responsibility for safety
Do we have a safety officer to plan and oversee the event day operation
Do we have supervisory stewards to form a link in the chain of command between the safety officer and all other stewards
Do we have stewards performing locational or functional roles
Do we have a named individual with a responsibility for security?
They are some of the basic requirements of the safety licence as far as i can glean and all reasonable questions in light of what happened/ did not happen at the south east corner at the ed of the match.
Does seem some people on here (various, not just yourself, are willing away the possibility of serious answers to serious safety related issues.
I’m sure we tick all the necessary boxes as a club that are required.
The wrong call was made in most (if not all) people’s opinions and I assume in the clubs too.
Normally games pass without great issue.
A different approach was used for this game which none of us liked and was very badly implemented.
I don’t imagine there is much beyond that in the cold light of day -is my point
Do we need a club scapegoat when as far as I am aware I haven’t seen any reports of violence or serious incidents (Sam Bartram exit aside and separate to the decision to not hold Millwall back) ?
If on the other hand you are seeking answers to the Sam Bartram gate specifically then I speculate this is simply error as ordinarily that exit is not an issue.
That is a genuine lesson learned for the club and police.
There were no "serious incidents" at the Leppings Lane end at Hillsborough .Until there was. Due mainly to complacency and arrogance on the part of the police. The best practice approach is to anticipate potential danger points, with the help of experienced professionals who have worked at the location for many years. Overruling their concerns and imposing an already tried (and failed) process on a venue at the last moment is the very antithesis of best practice.
A rather large leap for this issue and far from the point I am making.
The decision to exit Millwall first / immediately is your (and most people’s) gripe.
I don’t like it but that (decision not its execution) is not creating additional risk of injury or similar as far as I can see.
To repeat poorly executed and communicated is self evident.
I don’t see however what more some think is to be uncovered.
A poor decision which is alien to usual practice that no doubt is based on the perception of Millwall behaving poorly.
We are ‘victims’ of our relative good behaviour.
Charlton Lane traffic management was an additional oversight someone might concede too. In truth that would be a good idea every game.
I think also the club are making a massive mistake thinking just because fans haven't written to club that it doesn't mean 20K fans who attended aren't angry at what happened. Most fans would have been furious that as Home fans they were treated this way & that it created an unsafe situation which thankfully no one was hurt .Our fans have quite rightly asked why Millwall fans were given special treatment to leave rather than be held back like the majority of clubs do with away fans as we are at The Den. The violence in East Stand-Landsdown rd exit would have been witnessed by 100-150 Charlton fans, so of course vast majority didn't see it & also haven't seen it on social media as they weren't looking for it. I found it easily enough but as I was very close to fan who was kicked & punched lying on the staircase by 5-6 Millwall & even closer to our fan who was trying to passively and reason with Millwall fans and then punched, so i've been vocal on here, written to club, survey etc. I wrote suggesting positively that club in future reduce Millwalls tickets to 1000-1500, raise the price to offset lost revenue, put them in centre of JS & police and steward it properly next time & keep them in for 30-45mins till streets are clear. The Club's SMT & Comms of course knew all this but took a calculated decision to not highlight arrangements before or during the match so to downplay it and likewise the violence in East Stand, hoping that it would go away. Thankfully Lifers have been universally vocal in how our fans were treated & it seems a number have written to the club & expressed their views on the Mickey mouse survey... so lets wait with baited breath for some cynical statement from the club passing the buck. It just a real shame as this whole debacle has undone a lot of good work, as its clear the club's SMT don't care and for all tannoy annoucements thanking fans for getting behind the team, social media posts ramping up attendances, videos of Nathan pumping his fists to travelling supporters & Covered End. When it mattered with 20,000 fans safety and violence against our fans within the ground the SMT & Comms have gone AWOL. The club will have seen responses via emails and survey that the fans aren't happy, so lets see on Friday morning if someone finally within the club has the balls and intelligence to say right "we messed up'..... lets put out a proper statement and explain ourselves. Its not too late for the club to do this, but I'm not holding my breath this will happen. Well done to the clubs SMT & Comms for scoring an own goal just when things were going so well .....
Jesus Christ. Take a day off. Enough already.
Out of interest, fellow Lifer, were you at the match last Saturday ?
It's just that I thought you resided too far away to attend regularly....or at all .
To be honest what’s that got to do with you, whether he attended or not!!
It would give a sense of perspective as being in the crowds on Harvey Gardens after the game was very different to anything I have seen at The Valley, and have not seen any videos of what it was like.
Rubbish. The response was about the repeated posts on here. Nothing to do with the war in Harvey Gardens.
The reality of the Millwall game is known if we are honest.
The police made the call and the club have to comply.
The club royally mucked up in how they chose to advertise it and steward it post match vis a vis announcements.
The police will have had a rationale for their decision to not keep Millwall back. We don’t like it because it’s unusual / exceptional and feels unjust but is just that a judgement call we don’t appreciate.
Any promise to learn and/or not repeat can’t be taken as a guarantee as circumstances and personnel can change.
There might be some squirming from the club at the fans forum but I doubt we will learn anything new.
If it was an open Q and A down the club then maybe that would be different
Agreed - that would be more entertaining!
They’d squirm more but you’d still not learn much.
You learn a lot from people’s body language. Normally a good bar
Yes that’s true.
I just don’t think there is much to uncover.
A poor decision / strategy that was poorly executed by both parties.
The club were all /only about maximising ticket sales.
Shame really they didn’t persuade Jones to take cup fixtures more seriously and generate some income that way 😉😆
Not much to uncover you think @valleynick66? How about these questions about how stewarding works for a start?
Do we have a senior executive with overall responsibility for safety
Do we have a safety officer to plan and oversee the event day operation
Do we have supervisory stewards to form a link in the chain of command between the safety officer and all other stewards
Do we have stewards performing locational or functional roles
Do we have a named individual with a responsibility for security?
They are some of the basic requirements of the safety licence as far as i can glean and all reasonable questions in light of what happened/ did not happen at the south east corner at the ed of the match.
Does seem some people on here (various, not just yourself, are willing away the possibility of serious answers to serious safety related issues.
I’m sure we tick all the necessary boxes as a club that are required.
The wrong call was made in most (if not all) people’s opinions and I assume in the clubs too.
Normally games pass without great issue.
A different approach was used for this game which none of us liked and was very badly implemented.
I don’t imagine there is much beyond that in the cold light of day -is my point
Do we need a club scapegoat when as far as I am aware I haven’t seen any reports of violence or serious incidents (Sam Bartram exit aside and separate to the decision to not hold Millwall back) ?
If on the other hand you are seeking answers to the Sam Bartram gate specifically then I speculate this is simply error as ordinarily that exit is not an issue.
That is a genuine lesson learned for the club and police.
There were no "serious incidents" at the Leppings Lane end at Hillsborough .Until there was. Due mainly to complacency and arrogance on the part of the police. The best practice approach is to anticipate potential danger points, with the help of experienced professionals who have worked at the location for many years. Overruling their concerns and imposing an already tried (and failed) process on a venue at the last moment is the very antithesis of best practice.
There were many “serious incidents” in the Leppings Lane end before 1989, notably at semi finals in 1981, 1987 and 1988.
To be honest,when you look back at footage from the 80s and see the masses of people crammed in the standing areas behind the goals,it is a wonder many more serious accidents did not occur.
People on here with opinions that weren’t there, obviously weren’t there. We should be able to visit the Valley as usual whether it’s Millwall or not (I appreciate that there needs to be a larger police presence and extra segregation etc). Why should we have to suffer when there are families, older people, kids etc etc. just going to a home game. My main issues were : 1. They let Millwall fans out first to give them exclusive use of the station, but many didn’t and just wandered past. Just keep them back, it happens to us there and occasionally other places (it’s part of being an away fan I’m afraid).
2. The south/east gate wasn’t policed, despite the huge police presence outside and the only real place within the stadium that home and away fans could get near eachother. 3. The assumption by many on here is that IF Millwall were kept in, it would somehow enrage them to cause trouble. If that’s the case, then police them properly and ban/reduce allocation if they are really that bad. That’s not ‘our’ problem.
4. The congestion after the game could have become a serious situation, with the vast majority of 20k+ Charlton fans exiting on Harvey Gardens all heading to the end of one road. Had there been any kind of incident (not necessarily football related) towards Charlton Lane, then where would this crowd have gone? Surely having one way out for the majority was insane. Better to iron out these issues now rather than wait for something serious to actually happen.
5. The lack of communication and crowd control post match was shocking and an accident waiting to happen. Not just communication to the fans, but the police had no idea either what was going on. 6. There should have been police in the ground, as many Charlton fans seem to think it’s fair to give their Millwall mates tickets in the home end.
I know most of this has been covered before, but the comments from people on here (mostly not there) who think this it’s just part of a Millwall/derby day experience are way off the mark.
I have enough friends and family that attended the game, and not one have complained about it, and when I asked, it was what you expect when you play Millwall... Yes, it wasn't policed that well, but I am sure there is a very good reason why they are using that method. And likely because, the impact of locking Millwall fans up, will likely fire them up, causing more trouble and damage.
For me, it isn't a big deal - and a lot are using this as an opportunity to have a dig at the club about it's communication.. For me, that has also been fine, they informed prior to the game, they have replied back to CAST letter.. And now awaiting investigation.. I am sure the police and Charlton have bigger fish to fry.. As I mentioned, for a local derby, it passed with little trouble, that will be seen as
Comments
For me, it isn't a big deal - and a lot are using this as an opportunity to have a dig at the club about it's communication.. For me, that has also been fine, they informed prior to the game, they have replied back to CAST letter.. And now awaiting investigation.. I am sure the police and Charlton have bigger fish to fry.. As I mentioned, for a local derby, it passed with little trouble, that will be seen as a success!
My main issues were :
1. They let Millwall fans out first to give them exclusive use of the station, but many didn’t and just wandered past. Just keep them back, it happens to us there and occasionally other places (it’s part of being an away fan I’m afraid).
3. The assumption by many on here is that IF Millwall were kept in, it would somehow enrage them to cause trouble. If that’s the case, then police them properly and ban/reduce allocation if they are really that bad. That’s not ‘our’ problem.
6. There should have been police in the ground, as many Charlton fans seem to think it’s fair to give their Millwall mates tickets in the home end.
I know most of this has been covered before, but the comments from people on here (mostly not there) who think this it’s just part of a Millwall/derby day experience are way off the mark.