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The influence of the EU on Britain.

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  • seth plum said:

    seth plum said:

    Stig said:

    More Brexit mayhem heading over the horizon. This is going to end up costing us a bloody fortune: https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/sep/14/hmrc-chief-warns-post-brexit-border-and-tax-checks-could-cost-up-to-800m

    Never in the history of human decision making did so many people understand so little of the consequences of a decision they should never been asked to make.

    seth plum said:

    Brexiters called it operation fear, when they were involved in operation ignorance.

    How arrogant/ignorant to assume that all those who voted 'out' are all simpletons, financial ignoramuses and/or racist xenophobes .. The best way to counteract my arrogance and ignorance might be to suggest what is good about brexit and how it will happen, surely there must be some non simpletons out there who could answer that one?

    It is not always a question of money .. many of those who voted out want to see an independent Britain free from the influence of an unelected bureaucracy, essentially controlled from Berlin and with the connivance of countries too poor or backward to make a go of it alone. It is not an unelected bureaucracy though is it? Neither is it 'essentially controlled from Berlin' or if it is, provide the evidence, and as for arrogance...well to assume countries are backward is very similar to us remainers assuming leavers are backward isn't it. Pot and kettle and all that. 'Money and finance' were secondary considerations in their decision making. Nobody knows what the primary or secondary or what considerations were in the minds of people, maybe it was about money given the £350million to the NHS bus.
    The problem we have now of course is that our so called Prime Minister is a spineless 'remainer' who'll bend over backwards (please no) to placate our European 'friends and neighbours, hoping at best that the result will be a very watered down 'exit' from the European body politic. Agreed, Theresa May was a declared remainer, and self declared 'strong and stable'.

    Article 50 should have been implemented during the week after the referendum result, we should by now be well on the way to achieving or should have completed the exit from the EU which, like it or not, was the wish of the MAJORITY of the Britons who took the trouble to vote in the referendum. Totally agree with you about this, the UK ought to have implemented brexit straight away and sod the ensuing chaos, by now the UK could have established a lot of detention centres for the EU citizens it is forcing to leave, and begun a programme for housing and generally looking after the ex-pats who are forced to return. A lot of time has been wasted. Suggesting, as I wrote above, that many who voted 'out' are ignorant or incapable of making a rational choice is an insult to them I am open to an explanation as to the rationale of the choice was, especially any rationale robust enough to withstand the obvious flaws when they are pointed out., simply because you have another view, albeit a misguided one
    My sister and her family moved from Sidcup to Lincolnshire. Born in London, three of my nieces live in Lincolnshire, one in Normanby, one in the Wolds, and one in Lincoln itself.
    Disgraceful wouldn't you say, that strangers should be allowed to move to that county? Why didn't the good people of Lincolnshire resist such an invasion and why not now get them out of the county?
    Absurd?
    Surely no more absurd than the position of brexiters now, and if your answer is about the borders of the country included Sidcup, then maybe you can help with answering the conundrum of the border in Ireland, after all you're no simpleton.

    The EU is completely democratic.
    The EU is not controlled by Germany.
    The UK is not, and indeed never has been an Independent country.*

    * it is a combination of other countries, and has been dependent on slavery and colonialism in order to exist in the first place, and it is not even independent in being able to feed itself from internal resources.

    as all too often you are rambling and bullshitting .. your sister's residence is of no concern of mine and is irrelevant to this topic ..

    slavery, colonialism ? .. in those respects we are just like the French and the Belgians and the Spanish and the Portuguese as well as the Germans with dreams of euro domination (you've heard of the final solution and the third reich ?) ... you seem to hate Britain .. are you British ? .. In any event if you don't like it here, fuck off and live elsewhere, I'm sure you'd be very welcome in the paradise that is mainland Europe .. in Poland, Romania, Bulgaria or even Germany perhaps
    I was born in Erith, not sure if that makes me British enough for you, then again my mother was Irish so maybe I am not pure enough to be counted as British.

    Easy to write off what I say as rambling and bullshitting because that way you can avoid responding in any detail.

    What you write above as the consequences of remaining is more appealing to me than this vague 'Rule Britannia' alternative.

    Erith ? .. mmmmm .. need to think about that one .. you're almost Dutch or Belgian or even worse, French ... anyway .. we are gonna continue to differ
  • seth plum said:

    seth plum said:

    Stig said:

    More Brexit mayhem heading over the horizon. This is going to end up costing us a bloody fortune: https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/sep/14/hmrc-chief-warns-post-brexit-border-and-tax-checks-could-cost-up-to-800m

    Never in the history of human decision making did so many people understand so little of the consequences of a decision they should never been asked to make.

    seth plum said:

    Brexiters called it operation fear, when they were involved in operation ignorance.

    How arrogant/ignorant to assume that all those who voted 'out' are all simpletons, financial ignoramuses and/or racist xenophobes .. The best way to counteract my arrogance and ignorance might be to suggest what is good about brexit and how it will happen, surely there must be some non simpletons out there who could answer that one?

    It is not always a question of money .. many of those who voted out want to see an independent Britain free from the influence of an unelected bureaucracy, essentially controlled from Berlin and with the connivance of countries too poor or backward to make a go of it alone. It is not an unelected bureaucracy though is it? Neither is it 'essentially controlled from Berlin' or if it is, provide the evidence, and as for arrogance...well to assume countries are backward is very similar to us remainers assuming leavers are backward isn't it. Pot and kettle and all that. 'Money and finance' were secondary considerations in their decision making. Nobody knows what the primary or secondary or what considerations were in the minds of people, maybe it was about money given the £350million to the NHS bus.
    The problem we have now of course is that our so called Prime Minister is a spineless 'remainer' who'll bend over backwards (please no) to placate our European 'friends and neighbours, hoping at best that the result will be a very watered down 'exit' from the European body politic. Agreed, Theresa May was a declared remainer, and self declared 'strong and stable'.

    Article 50 should have been implemented during the week after the referendum result, we should by now be well on the way to achieving or should have completed the exit from the EU which, like it or not, was the wish of the MAJORITY of the Britons who took the trouble to vote in the referendum. Totally agree with you about this, the UK ought to have implemented brexit straight away and sod the ensuing chaos, by now the UK could have established a lot of detention centres for the EU citizens it is forcing to leave, and begun a programme for housing and generally looking after the ex-pats who are forced to return. A lot of time has been wasted. Suggesting, as I wrote above, that many who voted 'out' are ignorant or incapable of making a rational choice is an insult to them I am open to an explanation as to the rationale of the choice was, especially any rationale robust enough to withstand the obvious flaws when they are pointed out., simply because you have another view, albeit a misguided one
    My sister and her family moved from Sidcup to Lincolnshire. Born in London, three of my nieces live in Lincolnshire, one in Normanby, one in the Wolds, and one in Lincoln itself.
    Disgraceful wouldn't you say, that strangers should be allowed to move to that county? Why didn't the good people of Lincolnshire resist such an invasion and why not now get them out of the county?
    Absurd?
    Surely no more absurd than the position of brexiters now, and if your answer is about the borders of the country included Sidcup, then maybe you can help with answering the conundrum of the border in Ireland, after all you're no simpleton.

    The EU is completely democratic.
    The EU is not controlled by Germany.
    The UK is not, and indeed never has been an Independent country.*

    * it is a combination of other countries, and has been dependent on slavery and colonialism in order to exist in the first place, and it is not even independent in being able to feed itself from internal resources.

    as all too often you are rambling and bullshitting .. your sister's residence is of no concern of mine and is irrelevant to this topic ..

    slavery, colonialism ? .. in those respects we are just like the French and the Belgians and the Spanish and the Portuguese as well as the Germans with dreams of euro domination (you've heard of the final solution and the third reich ?) ... you seem to hate Britain .. are you British ? .. In any event if you don't like it here, fuck off and live elsewhere, I'm sure you'd be very welcome in the paradise that is mainland Europe .. in Poland, Romania, Bulgaria or even Germany perhaps
    I was born in Erith, not sure if that makes me British enough for you, then again my mother was Irish so maybe I am not pure enough to be counted as British.

    Easy to write off what I say as rambling and bullshitting because that way you can avoid responding in any detail.

    What you write above as the consequences of remaining is more appealing to me than this vague 'Rule Britannia' alternative.

    Erith ? .. mmmmm .. need to think about that one .. you're almost Dutch or Belgian or even worse, French ... anyway .. we are gonna continue to differ
    Yes we clearly differ, and rejoice, you won anyway, you won already.
    We will never agree on this, but what exactly it is that you won is the great mystery and in my view the great tragedy.
  • edited September 2017

    seth plum said:

    Stig said:

    More Brexit mayhem heading over the horizon. This is going to end up costing us a bloody fortune: https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/sep/14/hmrc-chief-warns-post-brexit-border-and-tax-checks-could-cost-up-to-800m

    Never in the history of human decision making did so many people understand so little of the consequences of a decision they should never been asked to make.

    seth plum said:

    Brexiters called it operation fear, when they were involved in operation ignorance.

    How arrogant/ignorant to assume that all those who voted 'out' are all simpletons, financial ignoramuses and/or racist xenophobes .. The best way to counteract my arrogance and ignorance might be to suggest what is good about brexit and how it will happen, surely there must be some non simpletons out there who could answer that one?

    It is not always a question of money .. many of those who voted out want to see an independent Britain free from the influence of an unelected bureaucracy, essentially controlled from Berlin and with the connivance of countries too poor or backward to make a go of it alone. It is not an unelected bureaucracy though is it? Neither is it 'essentially controlled from Berlin' or if it is, provide the evidence, and as for arrogance...well to assume countries are backward is very similar to us remainers assuming leavers are backward isn't it. Pot and kettle and all that. 'Money and finance' were secondary considerations in their decision making. Nobody knows what the primary or secondary or what considerations were in the minds of people, maybe it was about money given the £350million to the NHS bus.
    The problem we have now of course is that our so called Prime Minister is a spineless 'remainer' who'll bend over backwards (please no) to placate our European 'friends and neighbours, hoping at best that the result will be a very watered down 'exit' from the European body politic. Agreed, Theresa May was a declared remainer, and self declared 'strong and stable'.

    Article 50 should have been implemented during the week after the referendum result, we should by now be well on the way to achieving or should have completed the exit from the EU which, like it or not, was the wish of the MAJORITY of the Britons who took the trouble to vote in the referendum. Totally agree with you about this, the UK ought to have implemented brexit straight away and sod the ensuing chaos, by now the UK could have established a lot of detention centres for the EU citizens it is forcing to leave, and begun a programme for housing and generally looking after the ex-pats who are forced to return. A lot of time has been wasted. Suggesting, as I wrote above, that many who voted 'out' are ignorant or incapable of making a rational choice is an insult to them I am open to an explanation as to the rationale of the choice was, especially any rationale robust enough to withstand the obvious flaws when they are pointed out., simply because you have another view, albeit a misguided one
    My sister and her family moved from Sidcup to Lincolnshire. Born in London, three of my nieces live in Lincolnshire, one in Normanby, one in the Wolds, and one in Lincoln itself.
    Disgraceful wouldn't you say, that strangers should be allowed to move to that county? Why didn't the good people of Lincolnshire resist such an invasion and why not now get them out of the county?
    Absurd?
    Surely no more absurd than the position of brexiters now, and if your answer is about the borders of the country included Sidcup, then maybe you can help with answering the conundrum of the border in Ireland, after all you're no simpleton.

    The EU is completely democratic.
    The EU is not controlled by Germany.
    The UK is not, and indeed never has been an Independent country.*

    * it is a combination of other countries, and has been dependent on slavery and colonialism in order to exist in the first place, and it is not even independent in being able to feed itself from internal resources.

    as all too often you are rambling and bullshitting .. your sister's residence is of no concern of mine and is irrelevant to this topic ..

    slavery, colonialism ? .. in those respects we are just like the French and the Belgians and the Spanish and the Portuguese as well as the Germans with dreams of euro domination (you've heard of the final solution and the third reich ?) ... you seem to hate Britain .. are you British ? .. In any event if you don't like it here, fuck off and live elsewhere, I'm sure you'd be very welcome in the paradise that is mainland Europe .. in Poland, Romania, Bulgaria or even Germany perhaps
    This must be a record-setting pace for a Brexit thread from inception to a poster being told they hate Britain and to fuck off overseas.
  • Fiiish said:

    seth plum said:

    Stig said:

    More Brexit mayhem heading over the horizon. This is going to end up costing us a bloody fortune: https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/sep/14/hmrc-chief-warns-post-brexit-border-and-tax-checks-could-cost-up-to-800m

    Never in the history of human decision making did so many people understand so little of the consequences of a decision they should never been asked to make.

    seth plum said:

    Brexiters called it operation fear, when they were involved in operation ignorance.

    How arrogant/ignorant to assume that all those who voted 'out' are all simpletons, financial ignoramuses and/or racist xenophobes .. The best way to counteract my arrogance and ignorance might be to suggest what is good about brexit and how it will happen, surely there must be some non simpletons out there who could answer that one?

    It is not always a question of money .. many of those who voted out want to see an independent Britain free from the influence of an unelected bureaucracy, essentially controlled from Berlin and with the connivance of countries too poor or backward to make a go of it alone. It is not an unelected bureaucracy though is it? Neither is it 'essentially controlled from Berlin' or if it is, provide the evidence, and as for arrogance...well to assume countries are backward is very similar to us remainers assuming leavers are backward isn't it. Pot and kettle and all that. 'Money and finance' were secondary considerations in their decision making. Nobody knows what the primary or secondary or what considerations were in the minds of people, maybe it was about money given the £350million to the NHS bus.
    The problem we have now of course is that our so called Prime Minister is a spineless 'remainer' who'll bend over backwards (please no) to placate our European 'friends and neighbours, hoping at best that the result will be a very watered down 'exit' from the European body politic. Agreed, Theresa May was a declared remainer, and self declared 'strong and stable'.

    Article 50 should have been implemented during the week after the referendum result, we should by now be well on the way to achieving or should have completed the exit from the EU which, like it or not, was the wish of the MAJORITY of the Britons who took the trouble to vote in the referendum. Totally agree with you about this, the UK ought to have implemented brexit straight away and sod the ensuing chaos, by now the UK could have established a lot of detention centres for the EU citizens it is forcing to leave, and begun a programme for housing and generally looking after the ex-pats who are forced to return. A lot of time has been wasted. Suggesting, as I wrote above, that many who voted 'out' are ignorant or incapable of making a rational choice is an insult to them I am open to an explanation as to the rationale of the choice was, especially any rationale robust enough to withstand the obvious flaws when they are pointed out., simply because you have another view, albeit a misguided one
    My sister and her family moved from Sidcup to Lincolnshire. Born in London, three of my nieces live in Lincolnshire, one in Normanby, one in the Wolds, and one in Lincoln itself.
    Disgraceful wouldn't you say, that strangers should be allowed to move to that county? Why didn't the good people of Lincolnshire resist such an invasion and why not now get them out of the county?
    Absurd?
    Surely no more absurd than the position of brexiters now, and if your answer is about the borders of the country included Sidcup, then maybe you can help with answering the conundrum of the border in Ireland, after all you're no simpleton.

    The EU is completely democratic.
    The EU is not controlled by Germany.
    The UK is not, and indeed never has been an Independent country.*

    * it is a combination of other countries, and has been dependent on slavery and colonialism in order to exist in the first place, and it is not even independent in being able to feed itself from internal resources.

    as all too often you are rambling and bullshitting .. your sister's residence is of no concern of mine and is irrelevant to this topic ..

    slavery, colonialism ? .. in those respects we are just like the French and the Belgians and the Spanish and the Portuguese as well as the Germans with dreams of euro domination (you've heard of the final solution and the third reich ?) ... you seem to hate Britain .. are you British ? .. In any event if you don't like it here, fuck off and live elsewhere, I'm sure you'd be very welcome in the paradise that is mainland Europe .. in Poland, Romania, Bulgaria or even Germany perhaps
    This must be a record-setting pace for a Brexit thread from inception to a poster being told they hate Britain and to fuck off overseas.
    And closed after 6 pages.

    Anyway I'm a Celt so you can all f*ck off.
  • Lincs give up.... There just queuing up to have a go at you.. Just click the lol button. Stop keep justifying yourself, after all they dont after an election, and be bothered about the consequence of their vote on the rest of the country.

    If you mean general election, if things go wrong, you can have another vote in five years. This is permanent.
    Yep, too many leave voters who harp on about democracy have no idea what democracy means.

    Democracy is an ongoing dialogue between the populace and those we select to govern. There is a natural back and forth through local and national elections between what those that want to govern are offering and what the electorate want. No decision is final, if elected officials don't perform they get replaced and the dialogue continues back and forth.

    A one off referendum is hugely undemocratic when taken in that context, it is binding forever based on a snap shot at a particular moment in history. Even worse, all the laws governing the honesty of political candidates for some reason don't apply to referendums. I'm sure we can all agree that neither side was 100% honest, though leave came out with the biggest whoppers, some of which they backtracked on within hours of the result.

    We have a parliamentary democracy for a reason, it allows huge decisions to be made by elected officials who (at least theoretically) how the knowledge to foresee the consequences of each course of action, and the time to research whenever they don't have the necessary knowledge, plus access to experts in the field where necessary. The referendum was an end-run around our parliamentary democracy and should never have been legal. The result, as we can see, is largely uninformed voters with little understanding of the potential consequences making decisions that will effect this country for decades.

    No matter which side had "won" the referendum, it would have been a bad day for our democracy.
    So a general election isnt a snapshot of where we are at the time... You go back 20 years and make your decision on that. Your a fool if you think people just woke up on june 23 rd and made their decision that day..

    The referendum was democratic as every one over 18 had the right to say yes or no.... They even fiddled it by extending the registration time for the youngsters.... Very undemocratic.... . So the vote if you haven't given the extra time would have been greater...

  • ''Come on Little Englanders, line up and get behind Brexit waving your little plastic St George's Crosses (with the word ENGLAND printed across the red bar) like good little nationalists. It's what you've been demanding for months''

    Whoever put this in, are you Emily Thornberry (Lady Nugee - The Champagne Socialist)
  • Fiiish said:

    seth plum said:

    Stig said:

    More Brexit mayhem heading over the horizon. This is going to end up costing us a bloody fortune: https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/sep/14/hmrc-chief-warns-post-brexit-border-and-tax-checks-could-cost-up-to-800m

    Never in the history of human decision making did so many people understand so little of the consequences of a decision they should never been asked to make.

    seth plum said:

    Brexiters called it operation fear, when they were involved in operation ignorance.

    How arrogant/ignorant to assume that all those who voted 'out' are all simpletons, financial ignoramuses and/or racist xenophobes .. The best way to counteract my arrogance and ignorance might be to suggest what is good about brexit and how it will happen, surely there must be some non simpletons out there who could answer that one?

    It is not always a question of money .. many of those who voted out want to see an independent Britain free from the influence of an unelected bureaucracy, essentially controlled from Berlin and with the connivance of countries too poor or backward to make a go of it alone. It is not an unelected bureaucracy though is it? Neither is it 'essentially controlled from Berlin' or if it is, provide the evidence, and as for arrogance...well to assume countries are backward is very similar to us remainers assuming leavers are backward isn't it. Pot and kettle and all that. 'Money and finance' were secondary considerations in their decision making. Nobody knows what the primary or secondary or what considerations were in the minds of people, maybe it was about money given the £350million to the NHS bus.
    The problem we have now of course is that our so called Prime Minister is a spineless 'remainer' who'll bend over backwards (please no) to placate our European 'friends and neighbours, hoping at best that the result will be a very watered down 'exit' from the European body politic. Agreed, Theresa May was a declared remainer, and self declared 'strong and stable'.

    Article 50 should have been implemented during the week after the referendum result, we should by now be well on the way to achieving or should have completed the exit from the EU which, like it or not, was the wish of the MAJORITY of the Britons who took the trouble to vote in the referendum. Totally agree with you about this, the UK ought to have implemented brexit straight away and sod the ensuing chaos, by now the UK could have established a lot of detention centres for the EU citizens it is forcing to leave, and begun a programme for housing and generally looking after the ex-pats who are forced to return. A lot of time has been wasted. Suggesting, as I wrote above, that many who voted 'out' are ignorant or incapable of making a rational choice is an insult to them I am open to an explanation as to the rationale of the choice was, especially any rationale robust enough to withstand the obvious flaws when they are pointed out., simply because you have another view, albeit a misguided one
    My sister and her family moved from Sidcup to Lincolnshire. Born in London, three of my nieces live in Lincolnshire, one in Normanby, one in the Wolds, and one in Lincoln itself.
    Disgraceful wouldn't you say, that strangers should be allowed to move to that county? Why didn't the good people of Lincolnshire resist such an invasion and why not now get them out of the county?
    Absurd?
    Surely no more absurd than the position of brexiters now, and if your answer is about the borders of the country included Sidcup, then maybe you can help with answering the conundrum of the border in Ireland, after all you're no simpleton.

    The EU is completely democratic.
    The EU is not controlled by Germany.
    The UK is not, and indeed never has been an Independent country.*

    * it is a combination of other countries, and has been dependent on slavery and colonialism in order to exist in the first place, and it is not even independent in being able to feed itself from internal resources.

    as all too often you are rambling and bullshitting .. your sister's residence is of no concern of mine and is irrelevant to this topic ..

    slavery, colonialism ? .. in those respects we are just like the French and the Belgians and the Spanish and the Portuguese as well as the Germans with dreams of euro domination (you've heard of the final solution and the third reich ?) ... you seem to hate Britain .. are you British ? .. In any event if you don't like it here, fuck off and live elsewhere, I'm sure you'd be very welcome in the paradise that is mainland Europe .. in Poland, Romania, Bulgaria or even Germany perhaps
    This must be a record-setting pace for a Brexit thread from inception to a poster being told they hate Britain and to fuck off overseas.
    All record's are there to be broken :wink:
  • bobmunro said:

    Fiiish said:

    seth plum said:

    Stig said:

    More Brexit mayhem heading over the horizon. This is going to end up costing us a bloody fortune: https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/sep/14/hmrc-chief-warns-post-brexit-border-and-tax-checks-could-cost-up-to-800m

    Never in the history of human decision making did so many people understand so little of the consequences of a decision they should never been asked to make.

    seth plum said:

    Brexiters called it operation fear, when they were involved in operation ignorance.

    How arrogant/ignorant to assume that all those who voted 'out' are all simpletons, financial ignoramuses and/or racist xenophobes .. The best way to counteract my arrogance and ignorance might be to suggest what is good about brexit and how it will happen, surely there must be some non simpletons out there who could answer that one?

    It is not always a question of money .. many of those who voted out want to see an independent Britain free from the influence of an unelected bureaucracy, essentially controlled from Berlin and with the connivance of countries too poor or backward to make a go of it alone. It is not an unelected bureaucracy though is it? Neither is it 'essentially controlled from Berlin' or if it is, provide the evidence, and as for arrogance...well to assume countries are backward is very similar to us remainers assuming leavers are backward isn't it. Pot and kettle and all that. 'Money and finance' were secondary considerations in their decision making. Nobody knows what the primary or secondary or what considerations were in the minds of people, maybe it was about money given the £350million to the NHS bus.
    The problem we have now of course is that our so called Prime Minister is a spineless 'remainer' who'll bend over backwards (please no) to placate our European 'friends and neighbours, hoping at best that the result will be a very watered down 'exit' from the European body politic. Agreed, Theresa May was a declared remainer, and self declared 'strong and stable'.

    Article 50 should have been implemented during the week after the referendum result, we should by now be well on the way to achieving or should have completed the exit from the EU which, like it or not, was the wish of the MAJORITY of the Britons who took the trouble to vote in the referendum. Totally agree with you about this, the UK ought to have implemented brexit straight away and sod the ensuing chaos, by now the UK could have established a lot of detention centres for the EU citizens it is forcing to leave, and begun a programme for housing and generally looking after the ex-pats who are forced to return. A lot of time has been wasted. Suggesting, as I wrote above, that many who voted 'out' are ignorant or incapable of making a rational choice is an insult to them I am open to an explanation as to the rationale of the choice was, especially any rationale robust enough to withstand the obvious flaws when they are pointed out., simply because you have another view, albeit a misguided one
    My sister and her family moved from Sidcup to Lincolnshire. Born in London, three of my nieces live in Lincolnshire, one in Normanby, one in the Wolds, and one in Lincoln itself.
    Disgraceful wouldn't you say, that strangers should be allowed to move to that county? Why didn't the good people of Lincolnshire resist such an invasion and why not now get them out of the county?
    Absurd?
    Surely no more absurd than the position of brexiters now, and if your answer is about the borders of the country included Sidcup, then maybe you can help with answering the conundrum of the border in Ireland, after all you're no simpleton.

    The EU is completely democratic.
    The EU is not controlled by Germany.
    The UK is not, and indeed never has been an Independent country.*

    * it is a combination of other countries, and has been dependent on slavery and colonialism in order to exist in the first place, and it is not even independent in being able to feed itself from internal resources.

    as all too often you are rambling and bullshitting .. your sister's residence is of no concern of mine and is irrelevant to this topic ..

    slavery, colonialism ? .. in those respects we are just like the French and the Belgians and the Spanish and the Portuguese as well as the Germans with dreams of euro domination (you've heard of the final solution and the third reich ?) ... you seem to hate Britain .. are you British ? .. In any event if you don't like it here, fuck off and live elsewhere, I'm sure you'd be very welcome in the paradise that is mainland Europe .. in Poland, Romania, Bulgaria or even Germany perhaps
    This must be a record-setting pace for a Brexit thread from inception to a poster being told they hate Britain and to fuck off overseas.
    And closed after 6 pages.

    Anyway I'm a Celt so you can all f*ck off.
    Me too Glasgow Celtic
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  • Lincs give up.... There just queuing up to have a go at you.. Just click the lol button. Stop keep justifying yourself, after all they dont after an election, and be bothered about the consequence of their vote on the rest of the country.

    If you mean general election, if things go wrong, you can have another vote in five years. This is permanent.
    No i meant you don't think of others when you vote in an election general or not... And font tell me you do when you dont live here.
    I may not "live here", but I can speak English... :lol:
    Agreed re English.... Its getting less snd less spoken over here.
  • Lincs give up.... There just queuing up to have a go at you.. Just click the lol button. Stop keep justifying yourself, after all they dont after an election, and be bothered about the consequence of their vote on the rest of the country.

    If you mean general election, if things go wrong, you can have another vote in five years. This is permanent.
    Yep, too many leave voters who harp on about democracy have no idea what democracy means.

    Democracy is an ongoing dialogue between the populace and those we select to govern. There is a natural back and forth through local and national elections between what those that want to govern are offering and what the electorate want. No decision is final, if elected officials don't perform they get replaced and the dialogue continues back and forth.

    A one off referendum is hugely undemocratic when taken in that context, it is binding forever based on a snap shot at a particular moment in history. Even worse, all the laws governing the honesty of political candidates for some reason don't apply to referendums. I'm sure we can all agree that neither side was 100% honest, though leave came out with the biggest whoppers, some of which they backtracked on within hours of the result.

    We have a parliamentary democracy for a reason, it allows huge decisions to be made by elected officials who (at least theoretically) how the knowledge to foresee the consequences of each course of action, and the time to research whenever they don't have the necessary knowledge, plus access to experts in the field where necessary. The referendum was an end-run around our parliamentary democracy and should never have been legal. The result, as we can see, is largely uninformed voters with little understanding of the potential consequences making decisions that will effect this country for decades.

    No matter which side had "won" the referendum, it would have been a bad day for our democracy.
    So a general election isnt a snapshot of where we are at the time... You go back 20 years and make your decision on that. Your a fool if you think people just woke up on june 23 rd and made their decision that day..

    The referendum was democratic as every one over 18 had the right to say yes or no.... They even fiddled it by extending the registration time for the youngsters.... Very undemocratic.... . So the vote if you haven't given the extra time would have been greater...
    I think you've completely misunderstood my point. Of course any individual election is a snapshot of it's time, but it's based on the performance (or lack thereof) of those currently in powers. And any decision made is up for review come the next election, and the next, and the next. Democracy is an on-going processes, not a one off event.

    A referendum, but it's very nature, goes completely against the principles of a parliamentary democracy. It's why they aren't recognised in this country, it's why a special law was needed just to hold this one and why the result was advisory only. Referendums and parliamentary democracy simply aren't compatible. The proof is in the actions of the Tories since, continuously trying to deny to the sovereignty of parliament to force through their twisted version of brexit, which few if any actually voted for.

    The most googled for term in the UK on June 24th of that year was "What is the EU", you'd like to think people might have googled that before voting rather than after. The fact that many of the things leave voters called most loudly for were either achievable before the vote, or best achieved by staying in the EU and working with other countries, shows how uninformed (or deliberately misled) many voters were and still are.

    If you don't trust our politicians to be able to guide Europe in a mutually advantageous route, then why the hell would you trust them to run our country at all?
    Parliament voted earlier this year to trigger Article 50 and leave the EU.
    Parliament voted 2 weeks ago to carry all EU law into UK law.
    That is quite a lot of Parliamentary involvement in and support for Brexit, don't you think?
  • Southbank said:

    Lincs give up.... There just queuing up to have a go at you.. Just click the lol button. Stop keep justifying yourself, after all they dont after an election, and be bothered about the consequence of their vote on the rest of the country.

    If you mean general election, if things go wrong, you can have another vote in five years. This is permanent.
    Yep, too many leave voters who harp on about democracy have no idea what democracy means.

    Democracy is an ongoing dialogue between the populace and those we select to govern. There is a natural back and forth through local and national elections between what those that want to govern are offering and what the electorate want. No decision is final, if elected officials don't perform they get replaced and the dialogue continues back and forth.

    A one off referendum is hugely undemocratic when taken in that context, it is binding forever based on a snap shot at a particular moment in history. Even worse, all the laws governing the honesty of political candidates for some reason don't apply to referendums. I'm sure we can all agree that neither side was 100% honest, though leave came out with the biggest whoppers, some of which they backtracked on within hours of the result.

    We have a parliamentary democracy for a reason, it allows huge decisions to be made by elected officials who (at least theoretically) how the knowledge to foresee the consequences of each course of action, and the time to research whenever they don't have the necessary knowledge, plus access to experts in the field where necessary. The referendum was an end-run around our parliamentary democracy and should never have been legal. The result, as we can see, is largely uninformed voters with little understanding of the potential consequences making decisions that will effect this country for decades.

    No matter which side had "won" the referendum, it would have been a bad day for our democracy.
    So a general election isnt a snapshot of where we are at the time... You go back 20 years and make your decision on that. Your a fool if you think people just woke up on june 23 rd and made their decision that day..

    The referendum was democratic as every one over 18 had the right to say yes or no.... They even fiddled it by extending the registration time for the youngsters.... Very undemocratic.... . So the vote if you haven't given the extra time would have been greater...
    I think you've completely misunderstood my point. Of course any individual election is a snapshot of it's time, but it's based on the performance (or lack thereof) of those currently in powers. And any decision made is up for review come the next election, and the next, and the next. Democracy is an on-going processes, not a one off event.

    A referendum, but it's very nature, goes completely against the principles of a parliamentary democracy. It's why they aren't recognised in this country, it's why a special law was needed just to hold this one and why the result was advisory only. Referendums and parliamentary democracy simply aren't compatible. The proof is in the actions of the Tories since, continuously trying to deny to the sovereignty of parliament to force through their twisted version of brexit, which few if any actually voted for.

    The most googled for term in the UK on June 24th of that year was "What is the EU", you'd like to think people might have googled that before voting rather than after. The fact that many of the things leave voters called most loudly for were either achievable before the vote, or best achieved by staying in the EU and working with other countries, shows how uninformed (or deliberately misled) many voters were and still are.

    If you don't trust our politicians to be able to guide Europe in a mutually advantageous route, then why the hell would you trust them to run our country at all?
    Parliament voted earlier this year to trigger Article 50 and leave the EU.
    Parliament voted 2 weeks ago to carry all EU law into UK law.
    That is quite a lot of Parliamentary involvement in and support for Brexit, don't you think?
    Well not exactly.
    Parliament voted for the second reading, and for many the third reading will only pass with amendments...the Henry the Eighth aspect of things is what worries many in Parliament from all parties.

  • Southbank said:

    Lincs give up.... There just queuing up to have a go at you.. Just click the lol button. Stop keep justifying yourself, after all they dont after an election, and be bothered about the consequence of their vote on the rest of the country.

    If you mean general election, if things go wrong, you can have another vote in five years. This is permanent.
    Yep, too many leave voters who harp on about democracy have no idea what democracy means.

    Democracy is an ongoing dialogue between the populace and those we select to govern. There is a natural back and forth through local and national elections between what those that want to govern are offering and what the electorate want. No decision is final, if elected officials don't perform they get replaced and the dialogue continues back and forth.

    A one off referendum is hugely undemocratic when taken in that context, it is binding forever based on a snap shot at a particular moment in history. Even worse, all the laws governing the honesty of political candidates for some reason don't apply to referendums. I'm sure we can all agree that neither side was 100% honest, though leave came out with the biggest whoppers, some of which they backtracked on within hours of the result.

    We have a parliamentary democracy for a reason, it allows huge decisions to be made by elected officials who (at least theoretically) how the knowledge to foresee the consequences of each course of action, and the time to research whenever they don't have the necessary knowledge, plus access to experts in the field where necessary. The referendum was an end-run around our parliamentary democracy and should never have been legal. The result, as we can see, is largely uninformed voters with little understanding of the potential consequences making decisions that will effect this country for decades.

    No matter which side had "won" the referendum, it would have been a bad day for our democracy.
    So a general election isnt a snapshot of where we are at the time... You go back 20 years and make your decision on that. Your a fool if you think people just woke up on june 23 rd and made their decision that day..

    The referendum was democratic as every one over 18 had the right to say yes or no.... They even fiddled it by extending the registration time for the youngsters.... Very undemocratic.... . So the vote if you haven't given the extra time would have been greater...
    I think you've completely misunderstood my point. Of course any individual election is a snapshot of it's time, but it's based on the performance (or lack thereof) of those currently in powers. And any decision made is up for review come the next election, and the next, and the next. Democracy is an on-going processes, not a one off event.

    A referendum, but it's very nature, goes completely against the principles of a parliamentary democracy. It's why they aren't recognised in this country, it's why a special law was needed just to hold this one and why the result was advisory only. Referendums and parliamentary democracy simply aren't compatible. The proof is in the actions of the Tories since, continuously trying to deny to the sovereignty of parliament to force through their twisted version of brexit, which few if any actually voted for.

    The most googled for term in the UK on June 24th of that year was "What is the EU", you'd like to think people might have googled that before voting rather than after. The fact that many of the things leave voters called most loudly for were either achievable before the vote, or best achieved by staying in the EU and working with other countries, shows how uninformed (or deliberately misled) many voters were and still are.

    If you don't trust our politicians to be able to guide Europe in a mutually advantageous route, then why the hell would you trust them to run our country at all?
    Parliament voted earlier this year to trigger Article 50 and leave the EU.
    Parliament voted 2 weeks ago to carry all EU law into UK law.
    That is quite a lot of Parliamentary involvement in and support for Brexit, don't you think?
    After a year of being forced to fight to be allowed to, when it should have automatically been their right from day one. May did everything in her power to try and block parliament from having any say, and when she didn't get her own way called a snap election to at least try and stack parliament in her favour.
  • Lincs give up.... There just queuing up to have a go at you.. Just click the lol button. Stop keep justifying yourself, after all they dont after an election, and be bothered about the consequence of their vote on the rest of the country.

    If you mean general election, if things go wrong, you can have another vote in five years. This is permanent.
    Yep, too many leave voters who harp on about democracy have no idea what democracy means.

    Democracy is an ongoing dialogue between the populace and those we select to govern. There is a natural back and forth through local and national elections between what those that want to govern are offering and what the electorate want. No decision is final, if elected officials don't perform they get replaced and the dialogue continues back and forth.

    A one off referendum is hugely undemocratic when taken in that context, it is binding forever based on a snap shot at a particular moment in history. Even worse, all the laws governing the honesty of political candidates for some reason don't apply to referendums. I'm sure we can all agree that neither side was 100% honest, though leave came out with the biggest whoppers, some of which they backtracked on within hours of the result.

    We have a parliamentary democracy for a reason, it allows huge decisions to be made by elected officials who (at least theoretically) how the knowledge to foresee the consequences of each course of action, and the time to research whenever they don't have the necessary knowledge, plus access to experts in the field where necessary. The referendum was an end-run around our parliamentary democracy and should never have been legal. The result, as we can see, is largely uninformed voters with little understanding of the potential consequences making decisions that will effect this country for decades.

    No matter which side had "won" the referendum, it would have been a bad day for our democracy.
    So a general election isnt a snapshot of where we are at the time... You go back 20 years and make your decision on that. Your a fool if you think people just woke up on june 23 rd and made their decision that day..

    The referendum was democratic as every one over 18 had the right to say yes or no.... They even fiddled it by extending the registration time for the youngsters.... Very undemocratic.... . So the vote if you haven't given the extra time would have been greater...
    I think you've completely misunderstood my point. Of course any individual election is a snapshot of it's time, but it's based on the performance (or lack thereof) of those currently in powers. And any decision made is up for review come the next election, and the next, and the next. Democracy is an on-going processes, not a one off event.

    A referendum, but it's very nature, goes completely against the principles of a parliamentary democracy. It's why they aren't recognised in this country, it's why a special law was needed just to hold this one and why the result was advisory only. Referendums and parliamentary democracy simply aren't compatible. The proof is in the actions of the Tories since, continuously trying to deny to the sovereignty of parliament to force through their twisted version of brexit, which few if any actually voted for.

    The most googled for term in the UK on June 24th of that year was "What is the EU", you'd like to think people might have googled that before voting rather than after. The fact that many of the things leave voters called most loudly for were either achievable before the vote, or best achieved by staying in the EU and working with other countries, shows how uninformed (or deliberately misled) many voters were and still are.

    If you don't trust our politicians to be able to guide Europe in a mutually advantageous route, then why the hell would you trust them to run our country at all?
    I thought the most googled thing was David Beckham.... Next time i am asked to vote for anything, if it hasn't gone through parliment, I will of course decline to vote... And if my choice is lost i will of course come up with some crap about it being undemocratic, as people didnt know what they were voting for.
  • Lincs give up.... There just queuing up to have a go at you.. Just click the lol button. Stop keep justifying yourself, after all they dont after an election, and be bothered about the consequence of their vote on the rest of the country.

    If you mean general election, if things go wrong, you can have another vote in five years. This is permanent.
    Yep, too many leave voters who harp on about democracy have no idea what democracy means.

    Democracy is an ongoing dialogue between the populace and those we select to govern. There is a natural back and forth through local and national elections between what those that want to govern are offering and what the electorate want. No decision is final, if elected officials don't perform they get replaced and the dialogue continues back and forth.

    A one off referendum is hugely undemocratic when taken in that context, it is binding forever based on a snap shot at a particular moment in history. Even worse, all the laws governing the honesty of political candidates for some reason don't apply to referendums. I'm sure we can all agree that neither side was 100% honest, though leave came out with the biggest whoppers, some of which they backtracked on within hours of the result.

    We have a parliamentary democracy for a reason, it allows huge decisions to be made by elected officials who (at least theoretically) how the knowledge to foresee the consequences of each course of action, and the time to research whenever they don't have the necessary knowledge, plus access to experts in the field where necessary. The referendum was an end-run around our parliamentary democracy and should never have been legal. The result, as we can see, is largely uninformed voters with little understanding of the potential consequences making decisions that will effect this country for decades.

    No matter which side had "won" the referendum, it would have been a bad day for our democracy.
    So a general election isnt a snapshot of where we are at the time... You go back 20 years and make your decision on that. Your a fool if you think people just woke up on june 23 rd and made their decision that day..

    The referendum was democratic as every one over 18 had the right to say yes or no.... They even fiddled it by extending the registration time for the youngsters.... Very undemocratic.... . So the vote if you haven't given the extra time would have been greater...
    I think you've completely misunderstood my point. Of course any individual election is a snapshot of it's time, but it's based on the performance (or lack thereof) of those currently in powers. And any decision made is up for review come the next election, and the next, and the next. Democracy is an on-going processes, not a one off event.

    A referendum, but it's very nature, goes completely against the principles of a parliamentary democracy. It's why they aren't recognised in this country, it's why a special law was needed just to hold this one and why the result was advisory only. Referendums and parliamentary democracy simply aren't compatible. The proof is in the actions of the Tories since, continuously trying to deny to the sovereignty of parliament to force through their twisted version of brexit, which few if any actually voted for.

    The most googled for term in the UK on June 24th of that year was "What is the EU", you'd like to think people might have googled that before voting rather than after. The fact that many of the things leave voters called most loudly for were either achievable before the vote, or best achieved by staying in the EU and working with other countries, shows how uninformed (or deliberately misled) many voters were and still are.

    If you don't trust our politicians to be able to guide Europe in a mutually advantageous route, then why the hell would you trust them to run our country at all?
    I thought the most googled thing was David Beckham.... Next time i am asked to vote for anything, if it hasn't gone through parliment, I will of course decline to vote... And if my choice is lost i will of course come up with some crap about it being undemocratic, as people didnt know what they were voting for.
    And that is exactly the point, you won't be asked. There have only been two national (as opposed to Scotland only) referendums in the last 50 years, and after this fiasco I doubt any government will risk one again anytime soon.

    By all means bemoan my description of democracy, but don't pretend you voted leave to make our parliament sovereign once more then try and defend the fact that the referendum itself is incompatible with a parliamentary democracy and that the tories then tried repeatedly to usurp parliament in order to get this own interpretation of brexit through.
  • seth plum said:

    Southbank said:

    Lincs give up.... There just queuing up to have a go at you.. Just click the lol button. Stop keep justifying yourself, after all they dont after an election, and be bothered about the consequence of their vote on the rest of the country.

    If you mean general election, if things go wrong, you can have another vote in five years. This is permanent.
    Yep, too many leave voters who harp on about democracy have no idea what democracy means.

    Democracy is an ongoing dialogue between the populace and those we select to govern. There is a natural back and forth through local and national elections between what those that want to govern are offering and what the electorate want. No decision is final, if elected officials don't perform they get replaced and the dialogue continues back and forth.

    A one off referendum is hugely undemocratic when taken in that context, it is binding forever based on a snap shot at a particular moment in history. Even worse, all the laws governing the honesty of political candidates for some reason don't apply to referendums. I'm sure we can all agree that neither side was 100% honest, though leave came out with the biggest whoppers, some of which they backtracked on within hours of the result.

    We have a parliamentary democracy for a reason, it allows huge decisions to be made by elected officials who (at least theoretically) how the knowledge to foresee the consequences of each course of action, and the time to research whenever they don't have the necessary knowledge, plus access to experts in the field where necessary. The referendum was an end-run around our parliamentary democracy and should never have been legal. The result, as we can see, is largely uninformed voters with little understanding of the potential consequences making decisions that will effect this country for decades.

    No matter which side had "won" the referendum, it would have been a bad day for our democracy.
    So a general election isnt a snapshot of where we are at the time... You go back 20 years and make your decision on that. Your a fool if you think people just woke up on june 23 rd and made their decision that day..

    The referendum was democratic as every one over 18 had the right to say yes or no.... They even fiddled it by extending the registration time for the youngsters.... Very undemocratic.... . So the vote if you haven't given the extra time would have been greater...
    I think you've completely misunderstood my point. Of course any individual election is a snapshot of it's time, but it's based on the performance (or lack thereof) of those currently in powers. And any decision made is up for review come the next election, and the next, and the next. Democracy is an on-going processes, not a one off event.

    A referendum, but it's very nature, goes completely against the principles of a parliamentary democracy. It's why they aren't recognised in this country, it's why a special law was needed just to hold this one and why the result was advisory only. Referendums and parliamentary democracy simply aren't compatible. The proof is in the actions of the Tories since, continuously trying to deny to the sovereignty of parliament to force through their twisted version of brexit, which few if any actually voted for.

    The most googled for term in the UK on June 24th of that year was "What is the EU", you'd like to think people might have googled that before voting rather than after. The fact that many of the things leave voters called most loudly for were either achievable before the vote, or best achieved by staying in the EU and working with other countries, shows how uninformed (or deliberately misled) many voters were and still are.

    If you don't trust our politicians to be able to guide Europe in a mutually advantageous route, then why the hell would you trust them to run our country at all?
    Parliament voted earlier this year to trigger Article 50 and leave the EU.
    Parliament voted 2 weeks ago to carry all EU law into UK law.
    That is quite a lot of Parliamentary involvement in and support for Brexit, don't you think?
    Well not exactly.
    Parliament voted for the second reading, and for many the third reading will only pass with amendments...the Henry the Eighth aspect of things is what worries many in Parliament from all parties.

    I thought Henry the Eighth was dead.
  • seth plum said:

    Southbank said:

    Lincs give up.... There just queuing up to have a go at you.. Just click the lol button. Stop keep justifying yourself, after all they dont after an election, and be bothered about the consequence of their vote on the rest of the country.

    If you mean general election, if things go wrong, you can have another vote in five years. This is permanent.
    Yep, too many leave voters who harp on about democracy have no idea what democracy means.

    Democracy is an ongoing dialogue between the populace and those we select to govern. There is a natural back and forth through local and national elections between what those that want to govern are offering and what the electorate want. No decision is final, if elected officials don't perform they get replaced and the dialogue continues back and forth.

    A one off referendum is hugely undemocratic when taken in that context, it is binding forever based on a snap shot at a particular moment in history. Even worse, all the laws governing the honesty of political candidates for some reason don't apply to referendums. I'm sure we can all agree that neither side was 100% honest, though leave came out with the biggest whoppers, some of which they backtracked on within hours of the result.

    We have a parliamentary democracy for a reason, it allows huge decisions to be made by elected officials who (at least theoretically) how the knowledge to foresee the consequences of each course of action, and the time to research whenever they don't have the necessary knowledge, plus access to experts in the field where necessary. The referendum was an end-run around our parliamentary democracy and should never have been legal. The result, as we can see, is largely uninformed voters with little understanding of the potential consequences making decisions that will effect this country for decades.

    No matter which side had "won" the referendum, it would have been a bad day for our democracy.
    So a general election isnt a snapshot of where we are at the time... You go back 20 years and make your decision on that. Your a fool if you think people just woke up on june 23 rd and made their decision that day..

    The referendum was democratic as every one over 18 had the right to say yes or no.... They even fiddled it by extending the registration time for the youngsters.... Very undemocratic.... . So the vote if you haven't given the extra time would have been greater...
    I think you've completely misunderstood my point. Of course any individual election is a snapshot of it's time, but it's based on the performance (or lack thereof) of those currently in powers. And any decision made is up for review come the next election, and the next, and the next. Democracy is an on-going processes, not a one off event.

    A referendum, but it's very nature, goes completely against the principles of a parliamentary democracy. It's why they aren't recognised in this country, it's why a special law was needed just to hold this one and why the result was advisory only. Referendums and parliamentary democracy simply aren't compatible. The proof is in the actions of the Tories since, continuously trying to deny to the sovereignty of parliament to force through their twisted version of brexit, which few if any actually voted for.

    The most googled for term in the UK on June 24th of that year was "What is the EU", you'd like to think people might have googled that before voting rather than after. The fact that many of the things leave voters called most loudly for were either achievable before the vote, or best achieved by staying in the EU and working with other countries, shows how uninformed (or deliberately misled) many voters were and still are.

    If you don't trust our politicians to be able to guide Europe in a mutually advantageous route, then why the hell would you trust them to run our country at all?
    Parliament voted earlier this year to trigger Article 50 and leave the EU.
    Parliament voted 2 weeks ago to carry all EU law into UK law.
    That is quite a lot of Parliamentary involvement in and support for Brexit, don't you think?
    Well not exactly.
    Parliament voted for the second reading, and for many the third reading will only pass with amendments...the Henry the Eighth aspect of things is what worries many in Parliament from all parties.

    I thought Henry the Eighth was dead.
    Brexiters seem to want to revive his legacy.
  • Sponsored links:


  • Lincs give up.... There just queuing up to have a go at you.. Just click the lol button. Stop keep justifying yourself, after all they dont after an election, and be bothered about the consequence of their vote on the rest of the country.

    If you mean general election, if things go wrong, you can have another vote in five years. This is permanent.
    Yep, too many leave voters who harp on about democracy have no idea what democracy means.

    Democracy is an ongoing dialogue between the populace and those we select to govern. There is a natural back and forth through local and national elections between what those that want to govern are offering and what the electorate want. No decision is final, if elected officials don't perform they get replaced and the dialogue continues back and forth.

    A one off referendum is hugely undemocratic when taken in that context, it is binding forever based on a snap shot at a particular moment in history. Even worse, all the laws governing the honesty of political candidates for some reason don't apply to referendums. I'm sure we can all agree that neither side was 100% honest, though leave came out with the biggest whoppers, some of which they backtracked on within hours of the result.

    We have a parliamentary democracy for a reason, it allows huge decisions to be made by elected officials who (at least theoretically) how the knowledge to foresee the consequences of each course of action, and the time to research whenever they don't have the necessary knowledge, plus access to experts in the field where necessary. The referendum was an end-run around our parliamentary democracy and should never have been legal. The result, as we can see, is largely uninformed voters with little understanding of the potential consequences making decisions that will effect this country for decades.

    No matter which side had "won" the referendum, it would have been a bad day for our democracy.
    So a general election isnt a snapshot of where we are at the time... You go back 20 years and make your decision on that. Your a fool if you think people just woke up on june 23 rd and made their decision that day..

    The referendum was democratic as every one over 18 had the right to say yes or no.... They even fiddled it by extending the registration time for the youngsters.... Very undemocratic.... . So the vote if you haven't given the extra time would have been greater...
    I think you've completely misunderstood my point. Of course any individual election is a snapshot of it's time, but it's based on the performance (or lack thereof) of those currently in powers. And any decision made is up for review come the next election, and the next, and the next. Democracy is an on-going processes, not a one off event.

    A referendum, but it's very nature, goes completely against the principles of a parliamentary democracy. It's why they aren't recognised in this country, it's why a special law was needed just to hold this one and why the result was advisory only. Referendums and parliamentary democracy simply aren't compatible. The proof is in the actions of the Tories since, continuously trying to deny to the sovereignty of parliament to force through their twisted version of brexit, which few if any actually voted for.

    The most googled for term in the UK on June 24th of that year was "What is the EU", you'd like to think people might have googled that before voting rather than after. The fact that many of the things leave voters called most loudly for were either achievable before the vote, or best achieved by staying in the EU and working with other countries, shows how uninformed (or deliberately misled) many voters were and still are.

    If you don't trust our politicians to be able to guide Europe in a mutually advantageous route, then why the hell would you trust them to run our country at all?
    I thought the most googled thing was David Beckham.... Next time i am asked to vote for anything, if it hasn't gone through parliment, I will of course decline to vote... And if my choice is lost i will of course come up with some crap about it being undemocratic, as people didnt know what they were voting for.
    And that is exactly the point, you won't be asked. There have only been two national (as opposed to Scotland only) referendums in the last 50 years, and after this fiasco I doubt any government will risk one again anytime soon.

    By all means bemoan my description of democracy, but don't pretend you voted leave to make our parliament sovereign once more then try and defend the fact that the referendum itself is incompatible with a parliamentary democracy and that the tories then tried repeatedly to usurp parliament in order to get this own interpretation of brexit through.
    Whose doing that
  • Lincs give up.... There just queuing up to have a go at you.. Just click the lol button. Stop keep justifying yourself, after all they dont after an election, and be bothered about the consequence of their vote on the rest of the country.

    If you mean general election, if things go wrong, you can have another vote in five years. This is permanent.
    Yep, too many leave voters who harp on about democracy have no idea what democracy means.

    Democracy is an ongoing dialogue between the populace and those we select to govern. There is a natural back and forth through local and national elections between what those that want to govern are offering and what the electorate want. No decision is final, if elected officials don't perform they get replaced and the dialogue continues back and forth.

    A one off referendum is hugely undemocratic when taken in that context, it is binding forever based on a snap shot at a particular moment in history. Even worse, all the laws governing the honesty of political candidates for some reason don't apply to referendums. I'm sure we can all agree that neither side was 100% honest, though leave came out with the biggest whoppers, some of which they backtracked on within hours of the result.

    We have a parliamentary democracy for a reason, it allows huge decisions to be made by elected officials who (at least theoretically) how the knowledge to foresee the consequences of each course of action, and the time to research whenever they don't have the necessary knowledge, plus access to experts in the field where necessary. The referendum was an end-run around our parliamentary democracy and should never have been legal. The result, as we can see, is largely uninformed voters with little understanding of the potential consequences making decisions that will effect this country for decades.

    No matter which side had "won" the referendum, it would have been a bad day for our democracy.
    So a general election isnt a snapshot of where we are at the time... You go back 20 years and make your decision on that. Your a fool if you think people just woke up on june 23 rd and made their decision that day..

    The referendum was democratic as every one over 18 had the right to say yes or no.... They even fiddled it by extending the registration time for the youngsters.... Very undemocratic.... . So the vote if you haven't given the extra time would have been greater...
    I think you've completely misunderstood my point. Of course any individual election is a snapshot of it's time, but it's based on the performance (or lack thereof) of those currently in powers. And any decision made is up for review come the next election, and the next, and the next. Democracy is an on-going processes, not a one off event.

    A referendum, but it's very nature, goes completely against the principles of a parliamentary democracy. It's why they aren't recognised in this country, it's why a special law was needed just to hold this one and why the result was advisory only. Referendums and parliamentary democracy simply aren't compatible. The proof is in the actions of the Tories since, continuously trying to deny to the sovereignty of parliament to force through their twisted version of brexit, which few if any actually voted for.

    The most googled for term in the UK on June 24th of that year was "What is the EU", you'd like to think people might have googled that before voting rather than after. The fact that many of the things leave voters called most loudly for were either achievable before the vote, or best achieved by staying in the EU and working with other countries, shows how uninformed (or deliberately misled) many voters were and still are.

    If you don't trust our politicians to be able to guide Europe in a mutually advantageous route, then why the hell would you trust them to run our country at all?
    I thought the most googled thing was David Beckham.... Next time i am asked to vote for anything, if it hasn't gone through parliment, I will of course decline to vote... And if my choice is lost i will of course come up with some crap about it being undemocratic, as people didnt know what they were voting for.
    And that is exactly the point, you won't be asked. There have only been two national (as opposed to Scotland only) referendums in the last 50 years, and after this fiasco I doubt any government will risk one again anytime soon.

    By all means bemoan my description of democracy, but don't pretend you voted leave to make our parliament sovereign once more then try and defend the fact that the referendum itself is incompatible with a parliamentary democracy and that the tories then tried repeatedly to usurp parliament in order to get this own interpretation of brexit through.
    If you had won the referendum you would not be saying it was undemocratic... Bit like arsene wenger last night saying what is and what isnt a penalty.
  • The referendum was indeed democratic, it was a version of democracy just as the EU is a version of democracy. Personally I accept the result, my challenge is regarding implementation.
  • @sillav nitram you may have thought an innocent picture of apples could do no harm, but you've created a monster.......

    :wink:
  • cabbles said:

    @sillav nitram you may have thought an innocent picture of apples could do no harm, but you've created a monster.......

    :wink:

    Agreed....... Close it
  • cabbles said:

    @sillav nitram you may have thought an innocent picture of apples could do no harm, but you've created a monster.......

    :wink:

    Agreed, this thread is rotten to the core.
  • cabbles said:

    @sillav nitram you may have thought an innocent picture of apples could do no harm, but you've created a monster.......

    :wink:

    Agreed, this thread is rotten to the core.
    It'll crumble soon
  • Southbank said:

    Lincs give up.... There just queuing up to have a go at you.. Just click the lol button. Stop keep justifying yourself, after all they dont after an election, and be bothered about the consequence of their vote on the rest of the country.

    If you mean general election, if things go wrong, you can have another vote in five years. This is permanent.
    Yep, too many leave voters who harp on about democracy have no idea what democracy means.

    Democracy is an ongoing dialogue between the populace and those we select to govern. There is a natural back and forth through local and national elections between what those that want to govern are offering and what the electorate want. No decision is final, if elected officials don't perform they get replaced and the dialogue continues back and forth.

    A one off referendum is hugely undemocratic when taken in that context, it is binding forever based on a snap shot at a particular moment in history. Even worse, all the laws governing the honesty of political candidates for some reason don't apply to referendums. I'm sure we can all agree that neither side was 100% honest, though leave came out with the biggest whoppers, some of which they backtracked on within hours of the result.

    We have a parliamentary democracy for a reason, it allows huge decisions to be made by elected officials who (at least theoretically) how the knowledge to foresee the consequences of each course of action, and the time to research whenever they don't have the necessary knowledge, plus access to experts in the field where necessary. The referendum was an end-run around our parliamentary democracy and should never have been legal. The result, as we can see, is largely uninformed voters with little understanding of the potential consequences making decisions that will effect this country for decades.

    No matter which side had "won" the referendum, it would have been a bad day for our democracy.
    So a general election isnt a snapshot of where we are at the time... You go back 20 years and make your decision on that. Your a fool if you think people just woke up on june 23 rd and made their decision that day..

    The referendum was democratic as every one over 18 had the right to say yes or no.... They even fiddled it by extending the registration time for the youngsters.... Very undemocratic.... . So the vote if you haven't given the extra time would have been greater...
    I think you've completely misunderstood my point. Of course any individual election is a snapshot of it's time, but it's based on the performance (or lack thereof) of those currently in powers. And any decision made is up for review come the next election, and the next, and the next. Democracy is an on-going processes, not a one off event.

    A referendum, but it's very nature, goes completely against the principles of a parliamentary democracy. It's why they aren't recognised in this country, it's why a special law was needed just to hold this one and why the result was advisory only. Referendums and parliamentary democracy simply aren't compatible. The proof is in the actions of the Tories since, continuously trying to deny to the sovereignty of parliament to force through their twisted version of brexit, which few if any actually voted for.

    The most googled for term in the UK on June 24th of that year was "What is the EU", you'd like to think people might have googled that before voting rather than after. The fact that many of the things leave voters called most loudly for were either achievable before the vote, or best achieved by staying in the EU and working with other countries, shows how uninformed (or deliberately misled) many voters were and still are.

    If you don't trust our politicians to be able to guide Europe in a mutually advantageous route, then why the hell would you trust them to run our country at all?
    Parliament voted earlier this year to trigger Article 50 and leave the EU.
    Parliament voted 2 weeks ago to carry all EU law into UK law.
    That is quite a lot of Parliamentary involvement in and support for Brexit, don't you think?
    After a year of being forced to fight to be allowed to, when it should have automatically been their right from day one. May did everything in her power to try and block parliament from having any say, and when she didn't get her own way called a snap election to at least try and stack parliament in her favour.
    And what then is your point? Parliament has endorsed every step so far. That is great and what sovereignty means.Our Parliament is once again in control of our future. The EU meanwhile is on a road to more integration and a single goverment and currency. There is not and has never been any kind of support for being part of that in this country.
  • Stig said:

    More Brexit mayhem heading over the horizon. This is going to end up costing us a bloody fortune: https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/sep/14/hmrc-chief-warns-post-brexit-border-and-tax-checks-could-cost-up-to-800m

    Never in the history of human decision making did so many people understand so little of the consequences of a decision they should never been asked to make.

    I get the impression from most brexiteers that they don't give a tinkers toss how much it costs as long as they come out of Europe. I'm convinced they'd vote the same again irrespective of cost.

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