One of the many questions I think we should expect an answer to is
- what is the budget for fitness and medical staff this season and what was it in 2013 -14, and in 2012-13? - what has been the expenditure on external medical costs (operations and consultations) in that period - who have been the senior permanent staff on the payroll for fitness and medical in the period under review?
Fat chance of getting an answer? Well hang on, we are customers, and we have a right to know before we buy, that the goods are fit for purpose. For example when you get on a plane, you believe the pilot has passed all appropriate medical checks.
And what exactly would you do with this data / information if you had it? It's meaningless out of context and without a comparison across the league. Even then it proves very little as health and fitness are very individual things. Which clubs publish any of this?
Root cause of results could be linked to poor fitness training and rehabilitation but not proven. I'd suggest you would need former players to observe that this aspect of the club is in some way inferior. I've not seen that stated.
The analogy to a pilot is also flawed - do you request this before you buy a flight or holiday?
We presumably do a medical of all,signings for insurance purposes if nothing else.
So much in football is subjective. It's not helpful to dwell on this. Staff move for all variety of reasons even from successful teams. The most valid observation is simply it's a longer term staff member choosing to go and that suggests general dissatisfaction with CAFC as an employer but not necessarily anything more sinister.
Just possible a change in this area might have a positive change with fresh eyes / different approach? Too late for this season of course.
One of the many questions I think we should expect an answer to is
- what is the budget for fitness and medical staff this season and what was it in 2013 -14, and in 2012-13? - what has been the expenditure on external medical costs (operations and consultations) in that period - who have been the senior permanent staff on the payroll for fitness and medical in the period under review?
Fat chance of getting an answer? Well hang on, we are customers, and we have a right to know before we buy, that the goods are fit for purpose. For example when you get on a plane, you believe the pilot has passed all appropriate medical checks.
And what exactly would you do with this data / information if you had it? It's meaningless out of context and without a comparison across the league. Even then it proves very little as health and fitness are very individual things. Which clubs publish any of this?
Root cause of results could be linked to poor fitness training and rehabilitation but not proven. I'd suggest you would need former players to observe that this aspect of the club is in some way inferior. I've not seen that stated.
The analogy to a pilot is also flawed - do you request this before you buy a flight or holiday?
We presumably do a medical of all,signings for insurance purposes if nothing else.
So much in football is subjective. It's not helpful to dwell on this. Staff move for all variety of reasons even from successful teams. The most valid observation is simply it's a longer term staff member choosing to go and that suggests general dissatisfaction with CAFC as an employer but not necessarily anything more sinister.
Just possible a change in this area might have a positive change with fresh eyes / different approach? Too late for this season of course.
What would I do with it? It depends on what the figures are, doesn't it?
If they show a significant decrease compared to the previous regime's figure, then I would ask Mr Duchatelet why it has been decreased. And then whether he does not see a connection between this decrease and the injuries, the patent fitness issues of the current squad, and the apparent dissarray in dealing with injury issues, particularly in Vetokele's case. If there is no decrease in the budget, then we might look at changes in personnel for an explanation.
Of course the views of former players, and certainly Mr Bloom himself would be useful. Although in these cases, their views would still be subjective. Figures are figures.
I'm not 'dwelling' on the departure of Mr Bloom. I don't know anything about him. I'm dwelling on the apparently parlous state of our medical and fitness regime. And I dwell on it because we have been here, before, round about 2002. Fans continuously raised concerns about the medical side for a year, but it was only when Parker took two months to recover from a pre-season knock that the Board took decisive action. Heaven knows how or why fans could see the problem before the Board did, but that seems to have been the case. And that was when we were a properly managed club.
The pilot thing was meant to be a joke, to make a point. I'd have thought you'd have worked that out, because it was preceded by another joke, that we are customers.
You're like a dog with a bone on the medical / fitness side of things at the club @PragueAddick and you have every right to be. Circumstantially and from what I heard on the grapevine the other week, it stinks
Bellamy on Sky Sunday discussing Sturridge repeat injuries, said, if he keeps coming back with another injury, it means he was not fit to start with and the fitness coach should look closer at what he does to find out why. It is the responsibility of the fitness coach to make sure all players are fit to resume after an injury
Bellamy on Sky Sunday discussing Sturridge repeat injuries, said, if he keeps coming back with another injury, it means he was not fit to start with and the fitness coach should look closer at what he does to find out why. It is the responsibility of the fitness coach to make sure all players are fit to resume after an injury
Exactly.
Of course all clubs have injuries, and some just come together by coincidence however, the charge sheet is:
- Vetokele; apparently played when suffering from an achilles injury, then pushed back in at beginning of season; alleged arguments within staff about whether fit enough, when apparent to everyone watching that he was a stone overweight, whatever else - Kashi; uncertain diagnosis, uncertain treatment plan (although at least an attempt to explain it to us in his case) - Bauer; injured in training - Lookman; pulls up in first half, off the ball. An 18 year old. It happens I suppose - Cousins; a naturally fit player, yet in out, in out in last thee months. Latest injury the result of being rushed back? - Sanogo; arrives and immediately picks up a back injury
But I won't include: - both Ba and Watt never look(ed) fit, but that may be their fault - similarly Diarra and Jackson may just be more injury prone because of their age
Bellamy on Sky Sunday discussing Sturridge repeat injuries, said, if he keeps coming back with another injury, it means he was not fit to start with and the fitness coach should look closer at what he does to find out why. It is the responsibility of the fitness coach to make sure all players are fit to resume after an injury
Correct but a) Bellamy is a bellend and b) the coach can overrule this, the medical fitness team can advise thy don't play him when he's not fully fit but can't stop him from being picked unless he's totally out of action. Wenger often does this with players (most high profile case I've heard, although Sir Alex was on the same lines) brings them back at 80-90% and they aggrevate or work too hard on the training field during the week before hitting fitness and are out for a much longer period.
Bellamy on Sky Sunday discussing Sturridge repeat injuries, said, if he keeps coming back with another injury, it means he was not fit to start with and the fitness coach should look closer at what he does to find out why. It is the responsibility of the fitness coach to make sure all players are fit to resume after an injury
Exactly.
Of course all clubs have injuries, and some just come together by coincidence however, the charge sheet is:
- Vetokele; apparently played when suffering from an achilles injury, then pushed back in at beginning of season; alleged arguments within staff about whether fit enough, when apparent to everyone watching that he was a stone overweight, whatever else - Kashi; uncertain diagnosis, uncertain treatment plan (although at least an attempt to explain it to us in his case) - Bauer; injured in training - Lookman; pulls up in first half, off the ball. An 18 year old. It happens I suppose - Cousins; a naturally fit player, yet in out, in out in last thee months. Latest injury the result of being rushed back? - Sanogo; arrives and immediately picks up a back injury
But I won't include: - both Ba and Watt never look(ed) fit, but that may be their fault - similarly Diarra and Jackson may just be more injury prone because of their age
Fair/unfair? Any I missed?
Cousins being deemed fit to play when he had been ill the preceding week. End result was him passing out after 45 mins on the pitch.
Bellamy on Sky Sunday discussing Sturridge repeat injuries, said, if he keeps coming back with another injury, it means he was not fit to start with and the fitness coach should look closer at what he does to find out why. It is the responsibility of the fitness coach to make sure all players are fit to resume after an injury
Exactly.
Of course all clubs have injuries, and some just come together by coincidence however, the charge sheet is:
- Vetokele; apparently played when suffering from an achilles injury, then pushed back in at beginning of season; alleged arguments within staff about whether fit enough, when apparent to everyone watching that he was a stone overweight, whatever else - Kashi; uncertain diagnosis, uncertain treatment plan (although at least an attempt to explain it to us in his case) - Bauer; injured in training - Lookman; pulls up in first half, off the ball. An 18 year old. It happens I suppose - Cousins; a naturally fit player, yet in out, in out in last thee months. Latest injury the result of being rushed back? - Sanogo; arrives and immediately picks up a back injury
But I won't include: - both Ba and Watt never look(ed) fit, but that may be their fault - similarly Diarra and Jackson may just be more injury prone because of their age
Fair/unfair? Any I missed?
PA I don't disagree with any of the stuff that you've said, but LB is not a newbie, and we haven't had this amount of injury/ fitness problems before at the same time ( that I can remember) so what's changed ,or is stuff getting lost in translation, I just want to know the truth.
PA I don't disagree with any of the stuff that you've said, but LB is not a newbie, and we haven't had this amount of injury/ fitness problems before at the same time ( that I can remember) so what's changed ,or is stuff getting lost in translation, I just want to know the truth.
Surely the culprit has to be the paucity of our squad for month after month , coupled with the inexperience of our managers/ inability to deal with the level of football required in the Championship ?
Any comparison between fitness and injury performance levels at an U21 and academy level to those at a Championship level are totally meaningless.
Anyone who has managed the progression of youth team players into senior football will testify to the challenges involved. The intensity, speed of movement, speed of thought and physicality bear no comparison. At this level timing is everything get it wrong and collisions, mistimed tackles, over reaching and consequent muscle pulls and tears will abound.
For the most part we are talking about a contact sport with fully professional athletes.
It is one of the reasons "development" players struggle for consistency at a senior level. It takes time to grow into coping mentally and physically with the step up. Some never do. Gomez and to a degree Jenkinson were the exceptions to the rule. We will need to show patience with Lookman.
It is also one of the reasons why so many overseas players struggle to settle in their first season. The relentless intensity involved in the upper echelons of the UK game give no respite, no easy games, no down time.
No matter the standard of the elite teams across Europe such intensity of competition is rare. Wenger has consistently stated the lead in timeline for overseas players he works with at Arsenal. You would desperately hope the "recruitment" team within Staprix had the same basic common sense.
In our own recent experience Buyens did well but was often "off the pace". Bulot took half a season to get anywhere near the pace. Reza still cannot handle the physicality. Tucudean had similar problems. Vetokele ran himself into the ground. JBG had an excellent first season but has been a shadow of himself this season. Bauer has done well but it is still only half a season. Sarr may never adjust. The list goes on. Then add in multiple recruits who have barely kicked a ball in anger over not one but often two seasons then in fitness terms it is a poor group to work with.
We can all recognise the glaring errors being made across the business on and off the field of play why would you think their understanding of this aspect of the business would be any better?
What some do not seem to realise is there are hundreds of talented players in the lower levels of the football pyramid many of whom have a great deal of ability but simply could no cope with the intense mental and physical demands necessary at the higher level of the games.
As far as Bloom is concerned he appeared to have been held in very high esteem by the football management team operating under the previous regime. I seem to recall he was extremely well qualified in his field of expertise. He was part of a very successful backroom team under Powell and for that we should thank him for his efforts on our behalf.
I can imagine the ever changing coaching regimes some of whom brought their own sports science statisticians and gurus will have certainly complicated and interfered with his work at the club. If you look at the clubs' "modus operandi" today do you really think he was empowered to the level of his abilities?
It can come as no real surprise he has followed Roberts and Chapple out of the door. Under this regime any semblance of British football industry culture is today purely accidental. While I am no fan of Dougie Freedman he rarely suffers fools gladly. He worked with the guy at Southend. In this instance whose judgement would you back?
Is that the going rate?? I know from some of the previous salaries that have been mentioned on here that the Club pays very badly but this seems low to me.
Is that the going rate?? I know from some of the previous salaries that have been mentioned on here that the Club pays very badly but this seems low to me.
for someone with a degree and relevant experience too.
It's a very hard field to get into though with lots of sports science grads eager to get a role to boost their CV
That salary is pretty pathetic, but as you say there are lots of people after such a role, and having a professional football club on your CV will be a big benefit for future employment
Got very little knowledge of that area, but a quick google search shows a 'Head of Football Science and Medicine' role at Hibernian that was being advertised at £48,000-£57,000 a year. Imagine the fact that the CAFC one is an academy role means that it makes sense it'd be a fair bit less than the Hibs one.
Is that the going rate?? I know from some of the previous salaries that have been mentioned on here that the Club pays very badly but this seems low to me.
Don't forget the benefits, probably they can see the first team for free if not away with youth team. Hang on, is that a benefit?
Got very little knowledge of that area, but a quick google search shows a 'Head of Football Science and Medicine' role at Hibernian that was being advertised at £48,000-£57,000 a year. Imagine the fact that the CAFC one is an academy role means that it makes sense it'd be a fair bit less than the Hibs one.
"“I’d seen a lot of changes in my time – Powelly going was one of them,” he said. “There were a lot of different coaches coming in and out. I felt I needed a fresh challenge and something with a bit more stability – working with a manager and a group of players for a longer period of time."
"“I’d seen a lot of changes in my time – Powelly going was one of them,” he said. “There were a lot of different coaches coming in and out. I felt I needed a fresh challenge and something with a bit more stability – working with a manager and a group of players for a longer period of time."
Comments
There have been plenty of injuries in the U21s too but you would expect that. players get injured at all levels of football.
Are there more injuries for young players in the first team then in the U21s?
What about the non-U21 players?
What is the reason for this?
Incompetence from Bloom? Possible but he's been there for five years. Why weren't these problems evident from 2011?
Injury prone players being purchased?
Players not use to a 46 game Championship season being purchased?
Injured players being kept in the team or rushed back to quickly against Bloom's advice?
Poor monitoring or use of sports science, something M. Duchatelet said is shared across the network?
Genuinely I looked back over the U21's games and they seemed to certainly feel like they have less over the last 2 seasons.
I could be wrong but it's how I saw it from what I could find.
Root cause of results could be linked to poor fitness training and rehabilitation but not proven. I'd suggest you would need former players to observe that this aspect of the club is in some way inferior. I've not seen that stated.
The analogy to a pilot is also flawed - do you request this before you buy a flight or holiday?
We presumably do a medical of all,signings for insurance purposes if nothing else.
So much in football is subjective. It's not helpful to dwell on this. Staff move for all variety of reasons even from successful teams. The most valid observation is simply it's a longer term staff member choosing to go and that suggests general dissatisfaction with CAFC as an employer but not necessarily anything more sinister.
Just possible a change in this area might have a positive change with fresh eyes / different approach? Too late for this season of course.
If they show a significant decrease compared to the previous regime's figure, then I would ask Mr Duchatelet why it has been decreased. And then whether he does not see a connection between this decrease and the injuries, the patent fitness issues of the current squad, and the apparent dissarray in dealing with injury issues, particularly in Vetokele's case. If there is no decrease in the budget, then we might look at changes in personnel for an explanation.
Of course the views of former players, and certainly Mr Bloom himself would be useful. Although in these cases, their views would still be subjective. Figures are figures.
I'm not 'dwelling' on the departure of Mr Bloom. I don't know anything about him. I'm dwelling on the apparently parlous state of our medical and fitness regime. And I dwell on it because we have been here, before, round about 2002. Fans continuously raised concerns about the medical side for a year, but it was only when Parker took two months to recover from a pre-season knock that the Board took decisive action. Heaven knows how or why fans could see the problem before the Board did, but that seems to have been the case. And that was when we were a properly managed club.
The pilot thing was meant to be a joke, to make a point. I'd have thought you'd have worked that out, because it was preceded by another joke, that we are customers.
Of course all clubs have injuries, and some just come together by coincidence however, the charge sheet is:
- Vetokele; apparently played when suffering from an achilles injury, then pushed back in at beginning of season; alleged arguments within staff about whether fit enough, when apparent to everyone watching that he was a stone overweight, whatever else
- Kashi; uncertain diagnosis, uncertain treatment plan (although at least an attempt to explain it to us in his case)
- Bauer; injured in training
- Lookman; pulls up in first half, off the ball. An 18 year old. It happens I suppose
- Cousins; a naturally fit player, yet in out, in out in last thee months. Latest injury the result of being rushed back?
- Sanogo; arrives and immediately picks up a back injury
But I won't include:
- both Ba and Watt never look(ed) fit, but that may be their fault
- similarly Diarra and Jackson may just be more injury prone because of their age
Fair/unfair? Any I missed?
PA I don't disagree with any of the stuff that you've said, but LB is not a newbie, and we haven't had this amount of injury/ fitness problems before at the same time ( that I can remember) so what's changed ,or is stuff getting lost in translation, I just want to know the truth.
Surely the culprit has to be the paucity of our squad for month after month , coupled with the inexperience of our managers/ inability to deal with the level of football required in the Championship ?
And where do all paths to failure lead ?
Got it in one !
Anyone who has managed the progression of youth team players into senior football will testify to the
challenges involved. The intensity, speed of movement, speed of thought and physicality bear no comparison. At this level timing is everything get it wrong and collisions, mistimed tackles, over reaching and consequent muscle pulls and tears will abound.
For the most part we are talking about a contact sport with fully professional athletes.
It is one of the reasons "development" players struggle for consistency at a senior level. It takes time to grow into coping mentally and physically with the step up. Some never do. Gomez and to a degree Jenkinson were the exceptions to the rule. We will need to show patience with Lookman.
It is also one of the reasons why so many overseas players struggle to settle in their first season. The relentless intensity involved in the upper echelons of the UK game give no respite, no easy games, no down time.
No matter the standard of the elite teams across Europe such intensity of competition is rare. Wenger has consistently stated the lead in timeline for overseas players he works with at Arsenal. You would desperately hope the "recruitment" team within Staprix had the same basic common sense.
In our own recent experience Buyens did well but was often "off the pace". Bulot took half a season to get anywhere near the pace. Reza still cannot handle the physicality. Tucudean had similar problems. Vetokele ran himself into the ground. JBG had an excellent first season but has been a shadow of himself this season. Bauer has done well but it is still only half a season. Sarr may never adjust. The list goes on. Then add in multiple recruits who have barely kicked a ball in anger over not one but often two seasons then in fitness terms it is a poor group to work with.
We can all recognise the glaring errors being made across the business on and off the field of play why would you think their understanding of this aspect of the business would be any better?
What some do not seem to realise is there are hundreds of talented players in the lower levels of the football pyramid many of whom have a great deal of ability but simply could no cope with the intense mental and physical demands necessary at the higher level of the games.
As far as Bloom is concerned he appeared to have been held in very high esteem by the football management team operating under the previous regime. I seem to recall he was extremely well qualified in his field of expertise. He was part of a very successful backroom team under Powell and for that we should thank him for his efforts on our behalf.
I can imagine the ever changing coaching regimes some of whom brought their own sports science statisticians and gurus will have certainly complicated and interfered with his work at the club. If you look at the clubs' "modus operandi" today do you really think he was empowered to the level of his abilities?
It can come as no real surprise he has followed Roberts and Chapple out of the door. Under this regime any semblance of British football industry culture is today purely accidental. While I am no fan of Dougie Freedman he rarely suffers fools gladly. He worked with the guy at Southend. In this instance whose judgement would you back?
Ad for the Academy role vacated by the guy taking on Bloom's role
It's a very hard field to get into though with lots of sports science grads eager to get a role to boost their CV
http://www.indeed.co.uk/cmp/Hibernian-Football-Club/jobs/Head-Football-Science-Medicine-e30464d71e7674af?q=Sports+Science
Anyway, we've had managers earning less than that under Duchatelet, so nothing should be that surprising.
Or other managers, non-football, earning less than £25 or £48 to £57k?
At the time it appeared hardly any players played 90 minutes more than once, I have not checked so may be wrong.
"“I’d seen a lot of changes in my time – Powelly going was one of them,” he said. “There were a lot of different coaches coming in and out. I felt I needed a fresh challenge and something with a bit more stability – working with a manager and a group of players for a longer period of time."
https://www.londonnewsonline.co.uk/26370/millwall-head-performance-laurence-bloom-chose-quit-charlton-athletic/