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Southeastern train disruption (all day, everyday, all pages)

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  • Unless there are different types of steel rails - I'd think that track buckling is not something that only happens over here ?!?
  • Unless there are different types of steel rails - I'd think that track buckling is not something that only happens over here ?!?

    I think the rails in other "hot" countries have a spliced joint, which allow for linear expansion. Rails in this country have a butt joint, therefore only have a limited amount of space for linear expansion, once that goes, the rails will start to buckle.
  • In hotter counties, the temp tends to remain the same for most of the year, so the rails are at a constant heat.
    In the UK the temp has a greater variation, so the rails expand or srink. To allow for this, they must be tightened or loosened to allow for it. It only takes each rail to expand a few centimetres before the rail becomes out of shape and buckles.
    So, every day in anything less than "normal" weather, crews are on standby to either tighten or loosen the rails. I can assure you, it isn't an easy job, with several thousand miles of track, and too few people to do it, the better option is too slow the trains down otherwise a train will come to grief sooner or later.
  • cafckev said:

    In hotter counties, the temp tends to remain the same for most of the year, so the rails are at a constant heat.
    In the UK the temp has a greater variation, so the rails expand or srink. To allow for this, they must be tightened or loosened to allow for it. It only takes each rail to expand a few centimetres before the rail becomes out of shape and buckles.
    So, every day in anything less than "normal" weather, crews are on standby to either tighten or loosen the rails. I can assure you, it isn't an easy job, with several thousand miles of track, and too few people to do it, the better option is too slow the trains down otherwise a train will come to grief sooner or later.

    Thanks for the explanation. That makes a lot of sense.
  • What do the Germans do? Just copy them.
  • cafckev said:

    In hotter counties, the temp tends to remain the same for most of the year, so the rails are at a constant heat.
    In the UK the temp has a greater variation, so the rails expand or srink. To allow for this, they must be tightened or loosened to allow for it. It only takes each rail to expand a few centimetres before the rail becomes out of shape and buckles.
    So, every day in anything less than "normal" weather, crews are on standby to either tighten or loosen the rails. I can assure you, it isn't an easy job, with several thousand miles of track, and too few people to do it, the better option is too slow the trains down otherwise a train will come to grief sooner or later.

    But following on from GA's post above, couldn't we just use track that has 'a spliced joint, which allow for linear expansion'? In a lot of countries there's going to be large heat variations across a 24 hour period- i.e. night into day swings, so i'm thinking either the composition of the steel compound or structure of joints could be improved. UK infrastructure, the 37th best in the world, so i suspect we are faced with the HS2 commitment over investment in track for the wider network.
  • cafckev said:

    In hotter counties, the temp tends to remain the same for most of the year, so the rails are at a constant heat.
    In the UK the temp has a greater variation, so the rails expand or srink. To allow for this, they must be tightened or loosened to allow for it. It only takes each rail to expand a few centimetres before the rail becomes out of shape and buckles.
    So, every day in anything less than "normal" weather, crews are on standby to either tighten or loosen the rails. I can assure you, it isn't an easy job, with several thousand miles of track, and too few people to do it, the better option is too slow the trains down otherwise a train will come to grief sooner or later.

    Not sure that is really correct - in the west of the US, up in the Rockies or in some of the deserts, for instance, the daytime temps often reach 90 degrees, while nightime can be below freezing. The tracks up there will do a huge amount of expanding and contraction in a single day. How come they can handle it and we in Britain (where temperature ranges are much, much less per day) cannot?
  • As far as i know, its because the temp in say the West US although differs by day and night, its still a regular constant, so they know from one day to another what expansion to allow for and plan to allow it. We on the other hand can not as we have different temps each day. You know in a desert, you will get 40+ in the day and -20 at night almost every day. We dont know for hour to hour let alone from day to day!
  • cafckev said:

    As far as i know, its because the temp in say the West US although differs by day and night, its still a regular constant, so they know from one day to another what expansion to allow for and plan to allow it. We on the other hand can not as we have different temps each day. You know in a desert, you will get 40+ in the day and -20 at night almost every day. We dont know for hour to hour let alone from day to day!

    So if we allow for the above temps, there shouldn't be a problem.
  • That's actually a great explanation Kev, thanks. So, naturally, the question follows: is there some reason we don't use the other technology - ie: is it inherently unsafe to use here for some reason?
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  • I would guess its the age ol' problem, cash! Would anyone spend billions replacing rails, for something that happens only a couple of times a year? Well, thats how they feel!!
  • cafckev said:

    I would guess its the age ol' problem, cash! Would anyone spend billions replacing rails, for something that happens only a couple of times a year? Well, thats how they feel!!

    Thanks for the explanation Kev. However, it's a lot more than a couple of times a year - there are less days without disruption than there are with. Today it's the heat, tomorrow it'll be a signal failure or a displaced train crew. Every winter is a complete write-off from start to finish. So your helpful explanation might justify today's shambles but doesn't get anywhere near to justifying the rest of the year. Perhaps if they spent some of their huge profits on improvements to the service they provide instead of doubling their Chief Executive's salary every year (see link below if you don't believe me)then people like me wouldn't hate them quite as much, the thieving fat c%*ts.
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2752813/Worst-rail-firm-given-four-years-Government-despite-claims-40-cent-trains-ran-late-year.html
  • MrLargo said:

    Heat delays, are due to the chance of the track bucking & then the line, would need to be closed.

    http://metro.co.uk/2015/06/30/which-train-services-will-be-disrupted-because-of-the-heatwave-5272229/

    What do they do in Spain, Italy, USA, Australia, India and everywhere else that has both a rail network and much hotter weather than us?! And what are our rails made of? Cheese?

    Unbelievable.
    Don't many countries use overhead cables & therefore don't get the "track problems".
    I believe this is the case, but the cheese comment is comedy gold. I'm pretty sure it's overhead cables because I saw an indian electrocuted on a video on you tube once by holding onto one.

  • The track is laid and maintained by Network Rail which is owned by the government. South Eastern have nothing to do with it! You have to blame (or change) the government if you want a decent railway.
  • Taken from an article on the BBC:
    In the past, the UK's main system of coping with extreme heat involved leaving gaps, known as expansion joints, along the line, allowing rails to slide past each other as they expand. But the small breaks in the line meant trains were noisy and gave bumpy rides.

    Under the replacement system, to prevent buckling the track is "pre-stressed" or stretched. Only when it gets unusually hot does the metal expand enough to pose a risk of rails pushing together and buckling.

    This treatment allows rails to be welded together, leaving no gaps. In the UK rail tension is set so that they only start to expand - and thereby push against each other - when the outside temperature gets to 27C.

    "This means there's a greater risk of buckling than there once was, but the modern system was introduced to make the ride smoother for passengers and quieter for those living near the track...

    ...Countries such as Japan, Germany, the Netherlands, Canada, the US and Germany use "slab track", where rails are laid on reinforced concrete slabs, holding them more rigidly. It's also used in the section of the Eurotunnel which runs under the English Channel.

    But Network Rail estimates slab track is four times dearer to install than that on sleepers and ballast, and "it's hard to make a business case" for it, even taking into account maintenance savings.
  • MrLargo said:

    cafckev said:

    I would guess its the age ol' problem, cash! Would anyone spend billions replacing rails, for something that happens only a couple of times a year? Well, thats how they feel!!

    Thanks for the explanation Kev. However, it's a lot more than a couple of times a year - there are less days without disruption than there are with. Today it's the heat, tomorrow it'll be a signal failure or a displaced train crew. Every winter is a complete write-off from start to finish. So your helpful explanation might justify today's shambles but doesn't get anywhere near to justifying the rest of the year. Perhaps if they spent some of their huge profits on improvements to the service they provide instead of doubling their Chief Executive's salary every year (see link below if you don't believe me)then people like me wouldn't hate them quite as much, the thieving fat c%*ts.
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2752813/Worst-rail-firm-given-four-years-Government-despite-claims-40-cent-trains-ran-late-year.html
    I was just explaining about the heat and speed restrictions.

    unfortunately, people wanted a private run railway, thinking it would see vast investment in the railway forgetting the reason people invest is to make a profit. Until someone is prepared to put more money than any of us care to imagine, it will never happen.

    Another thing about Private railways is people still see them all as one compnay, and as a lot of people do, blame the train company. For example, Southeasten has no control over signal/points failures, but are blamed when it is in fact Network Rails fault. But rightly are blamed for traincrew disruption and displacment, but it then gets complicated when caused by signal failures.

    Until one company owns the track, signals, stations, rollingstock etc, there will never be a co-ordinated, accountable rail system.
  • I agree, but remember, as the government cuts the subsidies it gives to rail companys fares will continue to increase.
    If i use a national express coach and get held up on a motorway because of a crash, i do not blame the coach company, but i do want a refund or some form of compensation from them but i dont blame them.
  • But if you rent or buy a car you don't complain to the manufacturer if there are road works or traffic jams.

    No one would ever try complaining to Ford or Renault about the state of Britain's roads.
  • 4.10 left cannon at 4.30. Think tonight will be another painful journey
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  • I was at lewisham and the 16:25 sidcup line was showing on time. I let an orpington train go, then 10 minutes later the sidcup train was cancelled. Jumped on the next orpington and chqnged at hither green but it now looks as if the sidcup train IS running. That's nothing to do with network rail but all to do with southeastern being uselss c***s.
  • It did stop at Lewisham mate despite the driver saying just before the station it wasn't
  • I was at lewisham and the 16:25 sidcup line was showing on time. I let an orpington train go, then 10 minutes later the sidcup train was cancelled. Jumped on the next orpington and chqnged at hither green but it now looks as if the sidcup train IS running. That's nothing to do with network rail but all to do with southeastern being uselss c***s.

    You'll have to take up your complaint with the manufacturers of the signs. Nothing to do with Southeastern.
  • IA said:

    I was at lewisham and the 16:25 sidcup line was showing on time. I let an orpington train go, then 10 minutes later the sidcup train was cancelled. Jumped on the next orpington and chqnged at hither green but it now looks as if the sidcup train IS running. That's nothing to do with network rail but all to do with southeastern being uselss c***s.

    You'll have to take up your complaint with the manufacturers of the signs. Nothing to do with Southeastern.
    Pretty sure all staff were supposed to be getting iPads with real-time info on so they could keep their "customers" updated. In fact I thought it was a requirement to them getting the contract extended?

    More Bullsh*t from this bunch of cowboys.
  • Really feel sorry for you lot. Did the rat run for too many years...

    Agree with Clem, them iPads will smart.
  • If it's any consolation and you fancy waiting to the trains are less hot/packed 'the fire station' next to Waterloo has reopened today and is doing free booze and food all evening!!!!
  • If it's any consolation and you fancy waiting to the trains are less hot/packed 'the fire station' next to Waterloo has reopened today and is doing free booze and food all evening!!!!

    Wish I still worked on Leake Street now!

    Unfortunately I've just polished off a KFC in victoria station because the concourse is too busy to even wait and I've missed two trains as I wasn't even going to attempt to cram myself in to them.

    Is this going to be a sign of things for the rest of the summer?!
  • It did stop at Lewisham mate despite the driver saying just before the station it wasn't

    Managed to get on at hither green so all's well that ends well. Especially as I blew the gym out and am sitting in the garden having a drink.
  • Think Network Rail are responsible for scheduling and cancelling trains. South Eastern just do what they are told.
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