New Article: The Norwich Factor

As we know Norwich completed back to back promotions and have had a comfortable first season back in the top flight.

Although you can not never make a direct comparison between two different clubs I thought it might be interesting to see how little or how much Norwich changed their side at each step on the way as we look to emulate their record.

These were the 11 players who made the most appearances in their League 1 winning season.

GK Fraser Forster 38
DF Russell Martin 26
DF Gary Doherty 39
DF Michael Nelson 28
DF Adam Drury 35
MF Darel Russell 34
MF Korey Smith 36
MF Simon Lappin 42
MF Wes Hoolahan 36
FW Grant Holt 39
FW Chris Martin 36

Then in 2010/11 City signed 10 new players. Seven in the summer and 3 in January. They moved on 8 including Doc and Darel Russell while Forster, who was on loan, went to Celtic.

Their 11 players in the 2010/11 promotion season with the most starts were:

GK John Ruddy 46
DF Russell Martin 49
DF Elliott Ward 41
DF Leon Barnett 26
DF Adam Drury 21
MF David Fox 33
MF Andrew Crofts 44
MF Simon Lappin 22/
MF Wes Hoolahan 39
FW Grant Holt 46
FW Chris Martin 23


Players surviving from the previous season in bold. So six of the previous season's main players also played a significant role in the 2010/11 success. The other five were all purchases, four in the summer and one, Barnett, in the January window.

This current season Norwich's most used XI (up to 1 March) have been

GK John Ruddy 25
RB Kyle Naughton 22
CB Russell Martin 25
CB Bradley Johnson 19
LB Marc Tierney 17
DM David Fox 21
RM Anthony Pilkington 20
AM Wes Hoolahan 22
LM Andrew Surman 17
FW Steve Morison 20
FW Grant Holt 17

Players in bold are those that also featured often in league 1.

Just three survivors from two seasons before. Norwich bought 10 new players this term and moved on 13.

Another thing of note is how British the Norwich first team is. All the of 2011/12 XI are from the British Isles and seven are English. None of the three sides listed here include a non-British Isles player.

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Comments

  • Rather talk about football, ie City v Utd.
  • Rather talk about football, ie City v Utd.
    Really don't understand your comments sometimes....................
  • Chirps
    Then why don't you???;-) See other thread

    Mind you I don't see what Henry seeks to prove from Norwich (who (IMHO) are going to be in trouble next season.) Consistency is only of use if the consistently used players deliver positive results.
  • Noss Member
    So, three players who were regulars in the League 1 winning team were part of a good mid-table Premier League team. Do we have three players who would/could do that? Wiggins, Solly, Hollands possibly? Not sure
  • Definitely got some more work to do then. Don't want to do what QPR have done this year and get thrashed in all of our local derbies.
    Do people think we should be raiding the relegated teams and the best of league 1, or going for championship players who are probably going to cost a bit?
  • That is very interesting Henry. I'd have thought that we would ba able to use more than six of our players next season, but I guess it depends how good they are going to be

    I also think Norwich, like us, did a lot of business at the start of the season they won League 1.


  • Mind you I don't see what Henry seeks to prove from Norwich (who (IMHO) are going to be in trouble next season.) Consistency is only of use if the consistently used players deliver positive results.
    Wasn't looking to prove anything other than that Norwich made a lot of changes for the Championship and even more for the Premier league.

  • It also seems there top scorer has banged goals in all the leagues they have been in, doubt BWP could do that.

    Solly I could see as a PL player not sure who else
  • Well personally I think its really interesting. I think while it is mainly Norwich's attacking players from the league 1 season who went on to perform in the premiership, it would be our defensive players that stay much the same, and Kermo.

    Would also be interesting to see a comparison with Southampton as well.
  • We can learn a lot from Norwich, or more importantly Powell can learn a lot from Lambert and his transfer policy. There was no sentiment when they were promoted to the Championship, players who had done a job for them in League 1 but were not good enough for the step up were let go- Doc and Nelson specifically . He bought good young hungry players, some of who had points to prove at that level (Ward and Barnett), Lambert did not spend a great deal and I suspect Powell may not have a too disimilar budget this year.

    Certainly think we have a similar number of player who can step up to the Championship with relative ease and maybe the likes of Solly, Morrison, Wiggins and Kerm (despite his age) could step up again.

  • I think Soton spent much more in League 1 so had better players.
  • well powell has proven he is not affraid to buy players in and sell them on (even more so than norwich in this league) so if he keeps up his current form on that side of things then why shouldnt we be able to 'do a norwich' aswell!?
    would be nice to keep it british too (sorry bullfrog, you can stay though, at least for the championship anyway) ha!
  • I don't think that we'll emulate them for one small reason: they had two local derbies to play - we'll have six or eight. I think that it will be a bit too much for us even with a few new signings. And besides, we already have foreign players.
  • JTJT Member
    Shocked.

    Just how did Doherty win a league title.


  • Mind you I don't see what Henry seeks to prove from Norwich (who (IMHO) are going to be in trouble next season.) Consistency is only of use if the consistently used players deliver positive results.
    Wasn't looking to prove anything other than that Norwich made a lot of changes for the Championship and even more for the Premier league.


    Then surely you were trying to make some point Henry - weren't you?
  • Come on legal, I don't need to explain the difference between evidence and proof to you : - )
  • Ha! ha! Henry. What is your point? Teams change from season to season. Does anyone really think that the 15 who start the final game of this season will be in the match day squad here at this stage next season? I'll be happy to wager that no more than 6 of the team who play Hartlepool will play the final game of next season. The whole point is that teams evolve - injuries, loss of form. sale, purchases and before you know it you have a different side. Surely all that you have done is to point out the obvious? There is a thin line between consistency of selection and stagnation.
  • Sure Norwich have had a few players who they did not expect to step up and perform well whilst perhaps a few who have struggled. May be the case for us, certainly BWP seems to divide opinion on whether he will be a success in the Championship whilst Wagstaff and/or Green may surprise their doubters.

    On another note, Lambert has bought well from the lower divisions, when they went into the Championship he signed Fox and Crofts from L1 who have been big successes and this season, the likes of Pilkington and Johnson have also performed well. We have a very exciting summer and expect us to use the League 1 market at some stage to sign one or two.
  • The players in our current squad that I could see stepping up to the prem are: Solly, Wiggins, Morrison, Hamer (if he carries on improving) and Kermorgant ( if we can get there before his time runs out). Stephens is another possible but he'll have to show a much bigger improvement.

    Of course, it's all speculation...............................
  • Interesting thread.

    Hamer, Solly, Wiggins, Morrison and Kermorgant may be able to play in the Prem and I would never write off Waggy's work ethic and determination to make the best of himself by the time we get there if we get there.
  • Ha! ha! Henry. What is your point? Teams change from season to season. Does anyone really think that the 15 who start the final game of this season will be in the match day squad here at this stage next season? I'll be happy to wager that no more than 6 of the team who play Hartlepool will play the final game of next season. The whole point is that teams evolve - injuries, loss of form. sale, purchases and before you know it you have a different side. Surely all that you have done is to point out the obvious? There is a thin line between consistency of selection and stagnation.
    No point to prove. Just clarifying how one club did it. Leads to interesting threads like this one : - )

    Yes sides evolve but how quickly?
  • They key thing for me is how much Norwich changed players when stepping up to the Championship. We have a much better defence than them but their attack was slightly better. I think we will not just bring in 2 or 3 more - if we have the budget, i can see it being similar to the 7 Norwich signed.
  • I think the big difference between Norwich, Southampton and us is that they both had a goal scorer capable of 20+ a season in both league 1 and the championship. I don't think we have. So it dosen't matter how good your defence is we will still need to score goals or we will struggle.
  • I think the big difference between Norwich, Southampton and us is that they both had a goal scorer capable of 20+ a season in both league 1 and the championship. I don't think we have. So it dosen't matter how good your defence is we will still need to score goals or we will struggle.
    But who's to say we haven't got that striker? BWP done it in L1 and even though neither him or Haynes have been prolific in the past at championship level, who's to say they won't be with us?



    Time will tell.......................
  • Not surprising that Norwich made those amount of signings when getting in to the Championship. What is surprising, Holt being successful in all 3 divisions stepping up. That was a key factor.

    As has been pointed out our success has been mainly due to defence, but that isn't totally down to the back 5, we have defended from the front when we haven't had the ball (Curbs philosophy) The defenders look like they should all step up in the Championship and our style of defending as a unit isn't likely to change. Midfield certainly though has question marks, whilst attack may need an inspired signing. I reckon we need 5 signings to the squad. There is 3 obvious outs without even thinking about it. (Euell, Doc, Hayes), I can also see someone expecting to get a chance of cutting it in the Champs going.
  • Correct me if I'm wrong but I think Lambert decided that Holt wasn't up to the Prem and had him on the bench, but he kept scoring so stepped up to starting XI.
  • Henry, are you sure those Prem appearances are correct? If so, then nobody has played more than 25 games out of 36 this season - that just seems unlikely.
  • I think the big difference between Norwich, Southampton and us is that they both had a goal scorer capable of 20+ a season in both league 1 and the championship. I don't think we have. So it dosen't matter how good your defence is we will still need to score goals or we will struggle.
    But who's to say we haven't got that striker? BWP done it in L1 and even though neither him or Haynes have been prolific in the past at championship level, who's to say they won't be with us?


    Yeah sorry forgot about Haynes. BWP misses to many for my liking.Especially 1 on 1's

    Time will tell.......................
  • Henry, are you sure those Prem appearances are correct? If so, then nobody has played more than 25 games out of 36 this season - that just seems unlikely.

    Up to March 1 as said in original post.
  • On how our team competed against Fulham in the cup i think only Kerm and Solly looked on par with them.
  • i think solly, morrison, wiggins, kerm could play prem. and hollands, bwp and waggy could b prem squad players
  • Thought I'd compile something similar for the Saints. It'll be interesting to see how many changes they make and how they compete next season.

    These are the twelve players with over 30 league appearances during Southampton's 2010/11 season in League One:

    GK Kelvin Davis (46 apps)
    DF Danny Butterfield (34)
    DF Dan Harding (36)
    DF Jose Fonte (43)
    DF Radhi Jaidi (31)
    MF Guly do Prado (34)
    MF Dean Hammond (41)
    MF Adam Lallana (36)
    MF Alex Oxlade-Chamberlain (34)
    MF Richard Chaplow (33)
    FW Lee Barnard (36)
    FW Rickie Lambert (45)

    Southampton brought in three key new players last summer; Jack Cork, Jos Hooiveld (initially on loan) and Danny Fox, whilst releasing at least eight players from their League One squad. Here are the XI with the most appearances over the season:

    GK Kelvin Davis (45 apps)
    DF Frazer Richardson (34)
    DF Jose Fonte (42)
    DF Jos Hooiveld (39)
    DF Danny Fox (41)
    MF Jack Cork (46)
    MF Guly do Prado (42)
    MF Dean Hammond (43)
    MF Adam Lallana (41)
    MF Morgan Schneiderlin (41)
    FW Rickie Lambert (42)

    Interesting to note, the above highlights how important it is to keep the majority of your players fit through the season and find a balanced and settled side.

    Other than that, draw what conclusion you will. Six players were present through both seasons, whilst three were new arrivals. On top of that, two players that appeared to not be able to play a regular part in the League 1 season, played a vital part in winning promotion from the Championship. Motivation for Dale Stephens, amongst others?
  • Who are these two players? Richardson injured himself pre-season, and would have played most of it otherwise. Schneiderlin I believe has also been first pick throughout his time, barring injury.

    All that can be said about this, is that to have a strong spine that is able to step up a division is all important. I think we have. I'm not sure if we have enough energy in midfield, apart from another forward, be that in the shape of a Billy Sharpe or Simeon Jackson, the midfield is where our emphasis needs to be.
  • AFKABartramAFKABartram Moderator
    Thanks Henry and Callum, found that interesting.
  • Good thread this. Thanks to Henry and Callum for taking the time to research the figures.

    Think it proves what most on here would suspect that we'll need at least 5-6 new players to challenge at the right end of the Championship next season, 3-4 for mid-table. Less than three good new players and we'll be at the wrong end of the table.
  • Haven't read all thread but imo this emphasisis our need to strengthen going forward.
    we don't possess a hoolihan/holt or lallana/lambert at the moment (thankfully nor do most of the championship).
  • It's worth adding that many of the players Norwich have added are also lower league players, e.g. Pilkington from Huddersfield, Wilbriham from MKD, Bradley Johnson and Jonny Howson came from Leeds and would have also played against us in L1, while Steve Morison played against us in L1 for Millwall, and Simeon Jackson was Gillingham's star player.

    Indeed, their team has extraordinarily little PL experience, which says a lot about the job Lambert has done. You wonder how well they will do next season, especially if he gets poached by a larger club.
  • Great thread. Really don't understand Chirpy at all.
  • Excellant debate which informs what we need to do .

    As a matter of interest how many of their League One players are still at Carrow Road even if they do not play regularly ?Much of our current team could do a job as squad members in the CCC but not necessarily as regulars.

    Lambert is ruthless in dumping players he did not rate such as the Doc . Injuries made him rethink about Ginger Pele in League One but as soon as they went up his days were numbered even though he was in the L1 team of the year and 3rd in their POTY vote .Another example of this was our current captain Jacko when he was at Colchester and Lambert moved him quickly out to Notts County.

    I think Powell has a similar mentality and does not give away much in his public statements when he always makes positive
    comments about his players. For example I remember him saying good things about Dailly ,Doherty and Fortune in press conferences at the back end of last season and then he replaced them by bringing in Cort ,Morrison and Taylor in the close season .

    I hope this window SCP follows this approach and improves us again by beefing up our squad with 6-8 players .
  • Players who I think could make it in the premiership (Not to say they definitely will though): Hamer, Solly, Morrison, Wiggins, Pritchard, Kermogant,- Bigger doubts but still possible - BWP, Hollands, Haynes, Green, Stephens. JJ's age/pace/injuries works against him but could do a squad player job I think.
  • Brighton 2010/11

    GK C Ankergren 46
    RB Iñigo Calderón 50
    CB Adam El-Abd 40
    CB Gordon Greer 36
    LB Marcos Painter 54
    RM Elliott Bennett 51
    CM Gary Dicker 44
    CM Liam Bridcutt 37
    LM Matt Sparrow 28
    ST Ashley Barnes 38
    ST Glenn Murray 45

    And 2011/12

    GK Peter Brezovan 24
    RB Iñigo Calderón 37
    CB Lewis Dunk 36
    CB Gordon Greer 47
    LB Marcos Painter 18
    RM Craig Noone 21
    CM Alan Navarro 29
    CM Liam Bridcutt 43
    LM Will Buckley 22
    ST Ashley Barnes 41
    ST C.Mackail-Smith 44

    Brighton lost Bennett to Norwich and Murray to Palace. Ankergren also played 22 games in goal
  • AFKABartramAFKABartram Moderator
    Looks to me Brighton saw the importance of Holt at Norwich which is why the paid a hell of a lot for CMS.

    I'm staggered he hasn't done better. The couple of times I saw him for Peterborough the season before he looked a real class act.
  • Henry,
    Oh yeah, didn't notice the date. Cheers.
  • Interestingly looking at the Brighton stats, quite a few of them did play in League 1 the season before (Noone with Plymouth and BHA, CMS at Posh and a few others played less in L1 than they did in the Championship for example).

    Only CMS and Buckley were summer signings, so Brighton did not make as many changes as Norwich yet had a successful season.

    On an added note, Hamer is a superior keeper to Ankergren and Brezovan, expect BHA to sign a new keeper this summer.
  • Powell said at Bromley that Poyet had commented that he (GP) had been "too loyal" to his players.

    Which maybe accounts for the low appearance numbers of a few BHA players compared to Saints and Norwich in the Championship although it could be injuries or just poor form.

    Brighton losing Murray on a free must have been a blow. His move to Palace still seems odd and looking at what Lambert and Holt did you have to wonder how BHA would have done had they kept him. Agree CMS looked good but not the continuity that Murray would have been.
  • Great thread. It certainly reinforces what I think that we will need to sign a minimum of five players that have the ability to be first choice from day one if we are to progress to anything other than a position of consolidation. Will totally depend on how much money we have to play with and I would be happy if two of the five were quality division one players but I really do think that a new striker, playmaker and centre back all have to have been playing at a higher level. What happens this summer will go a long way to letting us know whether there really are deep pocketed Mysterons lurking in the background imho.
  • Powell said at Bromley that Poyet had commented that he (GP) had been "too loyal" to his players.

    Which maybe accounts for the low appearance numbers of a few BHA players compared to Saints and Norwich in the Championship although it could be injuries or just poor form.

    Brighton losing Murray on a free must have been a blow. His move to Palace still seems odd and looking at what Lambert and Holt did you have to wonder how BHA would have done had they kept him. Agree CMS looked good but not the continuity that Murray would have been.
    Yes, it was an odd move, apart from the controversy of joining your club's closest rivals on a Bosman, Brighton are clearly a club on the rise, with their new expanding ground and wealthy owner, whereas Palace are solid Championship but unlikely to go any higher in the near future.
  • Thanks very much to Henry and Callum for the very interesting statistics. I'm sure that Chrissy does have an unsentimental grasp on what's needed, whether he'll be given the money is another question. Do the new rule changes to the Champs. money make it more of an imperative to go full out for promotion this coming season? I really don't understand all the ramifications.
  • The good thing is - our current defence is going to be as strong as anything in the Championship. That is a great starter for ten IMO.
  • On how our team competed against Fulham in the cup i think only Kerm and Solly looked on par with them.
    I recall being surprised/delighted at how good Pritchard looked in Prem company.
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