Thanks Sam, your posts were really enlightening. From what you write, it does seem that there was some planning involved in that 'invites' were sent out, which I find intriguing.
They seem to be sorting offenders in the same day bar the more serious ones hence the fact there getting a day or a fine,no pre sentance reports just a bench dealing with them, seems quite light after all .
There are no answers to why one child behaves bad and another dosen't from the same social group. If there were Dave would be giving us the fix this afternoon.
in my view this social problem is not about poverty, it is about a generation of people that believe, that society owes them a standard of living, i.e goods, services, homes, etc, at a level often above their own, without any effort to achieve this. some people feel that they should not have to work hard for what they want. they don't see how hard other people have strived to get the things they want, only that they have them. perhaps this state of society is more about capitalism gone wrong and not merely about poverty. as an NHS worker i am often amazed when i visit patients homes, to see that those with the 'lowest' incomes, often living in social housing, have the higher proportion of capitalist markers, i.e 40"+ tv, sky tv, laptops, expensive clothes. the contrary is often found in 'so called' wealthy homes. i've visited huge homes in leafy suburbia, with dated electrical items and threadbare carpets and sometimes wonder, who has their priorities right?
clearly our society has very differing views on what they want from life and what they consider to be their priorities.
We've learned that not all the rioters have the same profile - though it does seem that many do have a criminal record of some sort (suggesting that whatever punishment was dished out before was not 100% effective). We've also seen the occasional heady yoof appear completely unafraid of the consequences of their actions.
It strikes me that we are not using or experimenting with a wide enough range of punishments, or customising the punishment to the offender sufficiently. I for one would like to see us try a few more things, not necessarily always harsh/severe (though sometimes they should). I am not comfortable with 'bring back the birch' really - but you know, I'm increasingly thinking a 6-month trial in one town wouldn't be such a bad idea (if only to shut people up). And I've always liked the idea of a South Atlantic or Shetland 'Gulag' for serious & cold-blooded offenders. Stupid and relatively harmless things are also worth a try. Notice how some scum are keen to hide their faces and rush away from the court? OK, let's stick one or two in stocks in Lewisham High St for a day and see how they like it. It may not work - but who knows?
I don't know what will work. But big companies test 100s of new product ideas every year and are not afraid to try and fail.
Responsibility has a lot to do with it - if people don't take responsibility for their actions they do all kinds of things. An extreme case is "we were only obeying orders" when murdering innocent people in war. Or thinking that because of some perceived "wrong" you are entitled to break the law.
Here's a question - how many people would steal from family or friends, compared to looting a shop owned by a large corporation, compared to downloading pirate film or copy of microsoft word? they are all stealing at the end of the day, and just as illegal.
Responsibility has a lot to do with it - if people don't take responsibility for their actions they do all kinds of things. An extreme case is "we were only obeying orders" when murdering innocent people in war. Or thinking that because of some perceived "wrong" you are entitled to break the law.
Here's a question - how many people would steal from family or friends, compared to looting a shop owned by a large corporation, compared to downloading pirate film or copy of microsoft word? they are all stealing at the end of the day, and just as illegal.
Just a small point, but your last 2 examples are not and have never been stealing. All my software is legal, but if I were to download a copy of Word I'm not stealing, I'm simply infringing copyright. To steal I would have to physically take something, depriving the owner of it, which obviously isn't the case with a digital copy. You could argue (and the BSA and RIAA, etc. do argue) that I'm depriving MS of the revenue they would have got if I had purchased the software, but that would only be true if, in the absence of an illegal source, I definitely would have purchased the software, instead of doing without or using a free alternative such as Open Office.
Lets make some stocks and go take them to her parents house and demand they get in them, then place them in Charlton and Woolwich so all the people that are now out of work can go and throw rotten food at them.
Or better still while don't they come with there cheque book and compensate those people.
This might sound like a silly or rude question but it's not meant to be. Sam, why didn't you get involved? Not suggesting you should have or would have but if one of those guys had rung/texted you to say "we're looting in SE7 tonight, you coming?" what would have made you say no.
I was asked, and I said no, as I didn't see the point. I'm not upset a man carrying a gun was shot, I'm not against our current government, I don't want a bundle of left footed display trainers from JD Sports and I have only just got back on the career ladder after 7 months of trying to find a new job, so to throw that away would be incredibly stupid.
In fact once I was home, I told my loved ones I'm ok and turned my mobile off, as I didn't want anyone to try and contact me about anything of the sort.
Sam, so are you now passing on the names of those inviting you to participate onto the Police ??
Responsibility has a lot to do with it - if people don't take responsibility for their actions they do all kinds of things. An extreme case is "we were only obeying orders" when murdering innocent people in war. Or thinking that because of some perceived "wrong" you are entitled to break the law.
Here's a question - how many people would steal from family or friends, compared to looting a shop owned by a large corporation, compared to downloading pirate film or copy of microsoft word? they are all stealing at the end of the day, and just as illegal.
Just a small point, but your last 2 examples are not and have never been stealing. All my software is legal, but if I were to download a copy of Word I'm not stealing, I'm simply infringing copyright. To steal I would have to physically take something, depriving the owner of it, which obviously isn't the case with a digital copy. You could argue (and the BSA and RIAA, etc. do argue) that I'm depriving MS of the revenue they would have got if I had purchased the software, but that would only be true if, in the absence of an illegal source, I definitely would have purchased the software, instead of doing without or using a free alternative such as Open Office.
True, true, but copyright infringement is still "against the law". It isn't a criminal offence to download the software/film, but it is a civil offence. However it is a criminal offence to make and sell infringing articles - piracy.
Anyway "stealing" in the broader sense could surely incude copyright infringement. "Theft" is a legally defined term, but not one I used in my original post.
This might sound like a silly or rude question but it's not meant to be. Sam, why didn't you get involved? Not suggesting you should have or would have but if one of those guys had rung/texted you to say "we're looting in SE7 tonight, you coming?" what would have made you say no.
I was asked, and I said no, as I didn't see the point. I'm not upset a man carrying a gun was shot, I'm not against our current government, I don't want a bundle of left footed display trainers from JD Sports and I have only just got back on the career ladder after 7 months of trying to find a new job, so to throw that away would be incredibly stupid.
In fact once I was home, I told my loved ones I'm ok and turned my mobile off, as I didn't want anyone to try and contact me about anything of the sort.
Sam, so are you now passing on the names of those inviting you to participate onto the Police ??
I have shown the text and given contact details onto the local police, yes. Whether I know them or not, it is unacceptable and ultimately I am not good enough friends with them to spare them. I hadn't heard from them in the months when I needed the support of others, so I no longer consider them as a friend anyway, merely a former colleague
In Curb-Its link take a look at the Black guy wearing a red tee shirt -- its the truth.His T Shirt says "id rather be feared than looted"--------this rubbish dont fear the police---- they know the lawyers paid for by us will get them some tiny slap on the wrist (or Mummy and Daddys lawyer will get em off). They dont care that people are homeless,lost jobs,lost lively hoods,they talk about their "hood" their community but trash it with no care in the world.
We had the send them on holiday left wing crap
and we have had years on schemes and money thrown at the "under class"
What we need is to find what they FEAR------ make them be fearfull---------let them FEAR.
Haha, I'm no saint, I just know I don't want these rioting pillocks to have any major repercussions on my life, which includes the taxes I have to pay, the job and company I work at, my local area, my football team, my family and my other loved ones. I can handle a cancelled match and a delay to my train, but I can't accept the damage to the local area and ultimately the threat these people posed to us
All those people who were being processed overnight in courts open 24 hours a day - it saddens me. They may already think they have no future, now they have no future and a criminal record. I realise that they've done wrong and need to account for their actions, but how do we integrate these people back into society? If you don't think we should then what do you propose we do with them? Put them in prison for the rest of their lives or stick them on some island somewhere?
Good question Saga. They probably are already fully integrated into todays 'society' , unfortunately its not the same society as the majority of us. Its not such a slur to have a criminal record or an 'asbo' these days, and human rights and the liberal do gooders will probably do there utmost to make sure they are not 'punished' again and they can carry on as before., so don't worry
There was a chap on Sky News yesterday afternoon who was discussing the riots. I won't go into it in any detail, but he did make the point that many of these estates have regular murders of teenage boys and regular gang rapes of young women.
If one lives in such under such circumstances it does question if they would fear the Police or the consequences of breaking the law as much as you or I.
I'm not condoning any of the actions, but I think it it is probably difficult for those of us that live under different conditions to appreciate what these youngsters fear. There was a time when the most frightening thing I remembered was having to tell my Mum that my sister and I had, accidently, broken one of her favourite ornaments. We really feared the consequences, and at the time we had never known fear like it. Some 35 years later and I am not in the slightest bit scared of my Mum's temper because I've encountered much more frightening things since. If I lived in the fear of being killed on the streets where I lived every day, or of being gang raped (clearly not as likely as I'm a bloke, and not a very pretty one) I suspect the Police would be the least of my worries.
It strikes me that the profile of rioters is similar to those who get involved in football hooliganism, some football hooligans fit the stereotype, others like this girl come from well to do families and everyone acts surprised and wonders where they went wrong.
Without knowing her I think it's got less to do with socio-economic status but whether these people are easily led. She might hail from a good family, have an excellent education and all that, but that doesn't make her "smart" in having the ability to look at getting involved in these riots and realise that in looting a shop she's getting involved in a criminal act and appreciate what the consequences of those actions would be.
It strikes me that the profile of rioters is similar to those who get involved in football hooliganism, some football hooligans fit the stereotype, others like this girl come from well to do families and everyone acts surprised and wonders where they went wrong.
Without knowing her I think it's got less to do with socio-economic status but whether these people are easily led. She might hail from a good family, have an excellent education and all that, but that doesn't make her "smart" in having the ability to look at getting involved in these riots and realise that in looting a shop she's getting involved in a criminal act and appreciate what the consequences of those actions would be.
You can't call it a criminal act BFR, you have to call it 'Criminality' now. Anyone who's anyone uses the word Criminality now!
In Curb-Its link take a look at the Black guy wearing a red tee shirt -- its the truth.His T Shirt says "id rather be feared than looted"--------this rubbish dont fear the police---- they know the lawyers paid for by us will get them some tiny slap on the wrist (or Mummy and Daddys lawyer will get em off). They dont care that people are homeless,lost jobs,lost lively hoods,they talk about their "hood" their community but trash it with no care in the world.
We had the send them on holiday left wing crap
and we have had years on schemes and money thrown at the "under class"
What we need is to find what they FEAR------ make them be fearfull---------let them FEAR.
When you meet up with your mates on Charlton Loyal, and other 'faces' from the old days do you ever reflect on the fear and terror you all use to inflict on communities as you rampaged through towns up and down the country on Saturday afternoons, vandalising train carriages, abusing other passengers, feeling invincible just because you were in a mob? I had the misfortune of travelling on some of those trains with Charlton fans in the 70s and 80s so I know what it was like to be an inocent bystander and victim of this mob behaviour. Maybe I am doing you an injustice. Maybe you did not get involved in this type of behaviour. But do you feel the same way about the football hooligans (including the Charlton ones) from those days as you do about the hooligans we have been seeing on our TV screensover the last few nights? Or are you one of these people who think the football hooligans were different because they only set out to fight with other like minded football supporters? Notwithstanding of course the complete disrespect they showed to the police, football stewards, other non hooligan fans, innocent bystanders, British Rail staff and property?
Comments
Ha! Very good!
clearly our society has very differing views on what they want from life and what they consider to be their priorities.
What does she look like? I can imagine her as a filthy little rich kid gone bad.
For which I partially blame the internet, but mostly society. If I had somewhere to play ping pong I'd stop thinking these things.
We've learned that not all the rioters have the same profile - though it does seem that many do have a criminal record of some sort (suggesting that whatever punishment was dished out before was not 100% effective). We've also seen the occasional heady yoof appear completely unafraid of the consequences of their actions.
It strikes me that we are not using or experimenting with a wide enough range of punishments, or customising the punishment to the offender sufficiently. I for one would like to see us try a few more things, not necessarily always harsh/severe (though sometimes they should). I am not comfortable with 'bring back the birch' really - but you know, I'm increasingly thinking a 6-month trial in one town wouldn't be such a bad idea (if only to shut people up). And I've always liked the idea of a South Atlantic or Shetland 'Gulag' for serious & cold-blooded offenders. Stupid and relatively harmless things are also worth a try. Notice how some scum are keen to hide their faces and rush away from the court? OK, let's stick one or two in stocks in Lewisham High St for a day and see how they like it. It may not work - but who knows?
I don't know what will work. But big companies test 100s of new product ideas every year and are not afraid to try and fail.
Responsibility has a lot to do with it - if people don't take responsibility for their actions they do all kinds of things. An extreme case is "we were only obeying orders" when murdering innocent people in war. Or thinking that because of some perceived "wrong" you are entitled to break the law.
Here's a question - how many people would steal from family or friends, compared to looting a shop owned by a large corporation, compared to downloading pirate film or copy of microsoft word? they are all stealing at the end of the day, and just as illegal.
There doesnt appear to be any police at the retail park in this video. I cant remember if ive posted this before.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GrgYAuHzN_g&feature=player_embedded
Some more info on what happened in woolwich that night.
http://853blog.wordpress.com/
Worse than i thought in London
*Evil perverted laugh*
True, true, but copyright infringement is still "against the law". It isn't a criminal offence to download the software/film, but it is a civil offence. However it is a criminal offence to make and sell infringing articles - piracy.
Anyway "stealing" in the broader sense could surely incude copyright infringement. "Theft" is a legally defined term, but not one I used in my original post.
Sheppy covers both these options :-D
They probably are already fully integrated into todays 'society' , unfortunately its not the same society as the majority of us.
Its not such a slur to have a criminal record or an 'asbo' these days, and human rights and the liberal do gooders will probably do there utmost to make sure they are not 'punished' again and they can carry on as before., so don't worry
http://eureferendum.blogspot.com/2011/08/suck-on-that-one.html
http://nathanieltapley.com/2011/08/10/an-open-letter-to-david-camerons-parents/
If one lives in such under such circumstances it does question if they would fear the Police or the consequences of breaking the law as much as you or I.
I'm not condoning any of the actions, but I think it it is probably difficult for those of us that live under different conditions to appreciate what these youngsters fear. There was a time when the most frightening thing I remembered was having to tell my Mum that my sister and I had, accidently, broken one of her favourite ornaments. We really feared the consequences, and at the time we had never known fear like it. Some 35 years later and I am not in the slightest bit scared of my Mum's temper because I've encountered much more frightening things since. If I lived in the fear of being killed on the streets where I lived every day, or of being gang raped (clearly not as likely as I'm a bloke, and not a very pretty one) I suspect the Police would be the least of my worries.
It strikes me that the profile of rioters is similar to those who get involved in football hooliganism, some football hooligans fit the stereotype, others like this girl come from well to do families and everyone acts surprised and wonders where they went wrong.
Without knowing her I think it's got less to do with socio-economic status but whether these people are easily led. She might hail from a good family, have an excellent education and all that, but that doesn't make her "smart" in having the ability to look at getting involved in these riots and realise that in looting a shop she's getting involved in a criminal act and appreciate what the consequences of those actions would be.
;-)
When you meet up with your mates on Charlton Loyal, and other 'faces' from the old days do you ever reflect on the fear and terror you all use to inflict on communities as you rampaged through towns up and down the country on Saturday afternoons, vandalising train carriages, abusing other passengers, feeling invincible just because you were in a mob? I had the misfortune of travelling on some of those trains with Charlton fans in the 70s and 80s so I know what it was like to be an inocent bystander and victim of this mob behaviour. Maybe I am doing you an injustice. Maybe you did not get involved in this type of behaviour. But do you feel the same way about the football hooligans (including the Charlton ones) from those days as you do about the hooligans we have been seeing on our TV screensover the last few nights? Or are you one of these people who think the football hooligans were different because they only set out to fight with other like minded football supporters? Notwithstanding of course the complete disrespect they showed to the police, football stewards, other non hooligan fans, innocent bystanders, British Rail staff and property?