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I am going to say it!! Yes I am, Nathan Jones......................
Comments
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Crispywood said:
We’ve not got the salaries to compete with other clubs granted but if there’s no other competition you can easily outpay L1 clubsThe Red Robin said:
Salaries are a bigger indicator.Crispywood said:
We’ve seen Norwich pick up Makama for 1.2M, QPR pick up Burrell for 1M, Bristol City picked Randall up 860k, Derby Morris for 2M, Wrexham Thomason for 1M, QPR Kone 3M all from clubs in L1 this year. Yes it’s a risk and not every signing is going to work out, but just because we don’t have an insane budget doesn’t mean we have to say well every signing is going to be bad because we can’t financially compete.SouthLincsAddick said:
That original list is so misleading.AberystwythAddick said:
I saw this on Twitter, written out this is dire recruitment.
We have the third worst player budget in the league. While the fees are big compared to L1 days they are peanuts in this league and the real cost to any clubs budget are wages and we simply can’t compete with anyone outside the bottom three. That’s why we’ve taken big gambles on L1 players or Championship quality players who are injury prone.
I don’t think fans can get their heads around how much we’re at a disadvantage coming up from L1. It’s sad and frustrating that fans think we’re on the same playing field as most Championship clubs, we’re not, we’re bottom three.This is true, but the general view is that buying from League 1 has not been much of a success.Perhaps we could have had a more streamlined squad with more Championship proven players brought in.1 -
That’s fine but if that’s the case then we didn’t bring others that would that allow those players the time and space to be developed. They were expected to be around the first eleven and for whatever reason just weren’t up to it. Personally I don’t think they were brought in as squad players. They used up most of the budget and were brought in to be very much first teamers first and foremost. It was a gamble that failed.RC_CAFC said:I'm slightly confused why some people think all our summer signings were signed with the intention of being fully ready for starting Championship football. None of them really had ever played in the Championship and we knew this which is why we sensibly spread our incomings.
I'm certain that Apter, Oloafe, Kelman and Knibbs were brought in to be squad players with the intention that they will improve as they are here. They are all young and as such should be judged on their potential as much as their output so far.
Interestingly, the one who I thought we would see more of, given he's 25 and a Championship regular in terms of his career, is JRC. He seems in danger of becoming the championship Terry Taylor where fans think he can offer more but Jones just doesn't seem to trust him.
And for all his detractors, Kaminski only cost £1m and is currently on course for the golden glove.1 -
Failed in what terms? If the KPI was retaining Championship status and we do how is that failure?
I had hoped, with peoples’ nerves seemingly a little less frayed, we might hold a reasoned debate as to the current stewardship of the club. Yet despite recently adding Championship experience and a better if not yet ideal balance to the squad it seems the expectations of many are locked in memories of former glories which palpably no longer apply.Whatever your expectation we have no god given right to be seen as a Championship club as recent history all too clearly evidences. Indeed I find the refusal by some to recognise the impact of the past two decades on our current prospects as borderline delusional notably so in relation to the way the industry and it’s marketplace has changed during the same period.In truth as of now I am unsure what “club investment” some think “they are selling here” ….notably in relation to what these investors bought.Churning through Murray, Chappell, the band of 25, Murray again, Slater & Jimenez, Staprix with Meire, Staprix without Meire, ESI1, ESI2, ESI1.5, Clear Ocean Capital screamed fiscal “basket case”. Are you genuinely wanting just the same roll of the dice?
Global Football Partners are the 6th different stewards in 19 years.Yes, it’s true our recruitment and progress are indelibly linked to the GFP investors and their ambitions. These owners and key investors? Are listed on the club website. A modicum of internet skills will give you some idea of their background, likely professional skill set and their possible wealth. Despite a plethora of management jargon there is little mystery.Can we though please be very clear? Throughout our long troubles global market interest in football, global investors and their money have always been there. Tens of investors will have, over the years, “kicked our tyres” in respect of the buy, buy, buy “business model” to which so many seem to aspire.At any point where a change of ownership was mooted there will likely always have been more than one potential suitor…yet the “major players” of your dreams? Always somehow found a way to remain in the shadows. In other words they ultimately chose not to buy “our value proposition”.I’m intrigued to learn what you think you know …..they don’t?Respectfully on what basis beyond nostalgia does anyone now reference our Premier League days, the long standing Championship history or even a beloved ground we no longer own? In case you didn’t notice the journey for “that business” ended in Jan 2020. The fabric underpinning its ability to trade was gone.What you missed the annual trading debt roll up year on year on year eating into freehold equity? the “fabricated” Staprix NV - ESI deal? the Owner litigation? the Sandgaard resurrection? COVID? The underlying fiscal dynamic was changed ….very possibly for ever. It matters. You are immediately shopping in a different investor market. All of this is known My issue with so many is they simply choose to ignore it.In a dramatically different marketplace you really think any new investors can, after 20yrs of almost relentless dross, just flick a switch and fans are going to come flooding back, lost generations will switch current allegiances and the related revenues will flow into club coffers? What in this catchment area?You genuinely expect guys new to the industry to immediately have all the answers? Trying to rebuild any failed business is riddled with false steps. In this highly competitive industry they can have very real consequences. Yet we have progressed. How about we let them learn to walk before screaming at them to run.You do know if we retain our Championship status it will be only the 6th time in nearly 2 decades? Is this reality not so much closer as to who we now are?Have we all seen low budget teams play good football and on occasion progress? Yes, but rarely sustainably in the Championship. Have we forgotten Ben Garner already? Indeed I am interested to know what now constitutes a “low budget” team. I have little time for the multitude of data strewn football web sites now available but it’s hard to ignore the comparative squad values promulgated therein. Any concept of a level Championship playing field has, in our absence, long since disappeared. Recent fixtures - Southampton squad value £157m, Portsmouth £36m, Stoke £81m, Leicester £133m, QPR £46m, Sheffield U £126m, Derby £54m, Millwall £53m (9 successive Championship seasons!) - Charlton? £29m*What you expected investors to make up the gap in one season? Spending how much more? £20m? £30m? £50m?
All before you consider the salaries to match.
All funded against what exactly?*The valuations do not reflect transfer fees paid for acquiring registrations while our £29m valuation is actually nearer £27m when excluding £6.6m of talent loaned in and including £4.9m of talent loaned out. It is 25% lower than Portsmouth the club ranked one above us in “the value” table. The one Championship club below us is Sheffield Wed. They are in Administration.Where did the club suggest we were in any way going to buy our way to Championship success? They most palpably did not.What is Global Football Partners’ intent? You are entitled to disagree with the strategy, but the current investors appear to have been entirely consistent with the business model they bought. Sold a SE7 catchment area, a community club, an elite academy, a development pipeline, a SMT espousing an emerging “888” operating plan they in large part remain intent on growing this business … from within being seemingly very prepared if necessary to take the lumps & bumps which might come with it.I am sorry if you don’t “get it” but such is very largely your problem - not theirs.Do I agree with their strategy? Not entirely, certainly not in the way it was initially implemented. In an almost rabidly impatient operating & trading environment the development of emerging talent as a key performance indicator is fraught with a litany of challenges all of its own. I however refuse to ignore the intent, the endeavour & commitment. So forgive me if at the very threat of any downturn I tire of the endless shit being hurled at those who are investing their money and working tirelessly to try to rebuild a badly, badly failed business ….just cos’ you don’t get it.Facing relegation to League 2 GFP promptly turned around a struggling SMT via a key appointment with the result of promotion to the Championship by the thinnest of margins. We may yet survive this season by the same margin. Such registers as real progress. Just as with the promotion squad it will be some achievement and just as with Mr Curbishley, all those years ago in the Premier League, the focus of retaining the prevailing playing status is a fiscal and operating imperative. No sorry, there are no bonus points for entertainment, creativity and style. This is not ice dancing.While I empathise with any frustration it in very large part stems from the expectations created in your own mind.Ultimately 2024/2025 was a success story. What securing League 1 promotion now doesn’t count? Tell that to Orient, Wycombe, Stockport, Bolton. What none of Mannion, Ramsay, Jones, Gillesphey, Edwards, Coventry, Small, Campbell, Godden delivered to their most effective and often career best performances?10 success stories yet such was and is the gap to be bridged none of it presented as evidence we were ready to challenge in the Championship beyond fighting to retain the status. If your argument is « the investors are not prepared to pay the going rate » the other squad values quoted above demand you speak to exactly “which” & “whose going rate” you mean.Yes, any « going rate » beyond survival may indeed be beyond this group’s ………or indeed anybody’s immediate comfort zone. Such ladies & gentlemen is the nature of this industry and this company’s balance sheet.If you have the time look at the internal payroll. Beyond « graduates » Leaburn & Campbell, all of Gough, Laqeretabua, Enslin, Fullah, Mwamba, Asiimwe, Z. Mitchell, Anderson, Kanu, Mbick, Hobden, Bower, Casey are in the “in house/ loan” development programme. We have at times had 17 players out on loan, all bar three being 23 or under while the U21s & U18s continue to excel.When we “invested in the market” Jones AND the Board targeted not Championship but affordable emerging yet unproven talent from the lower divisions for further growth and development across the period of their contract.2024 - Mannion, Ramsay, Edwards, Coventry, Ahadme, Small, Taylor, A Mitchell2025 - Apter, Carey, Knibbs, Kelman, OlaofeThere is barely a ready made Championship player among them. Virtually none had any meaningful relevant experience. All were/ are pretty much emerging League 1 level talent. Like any development program, over the full period of their contract, some will succeed some won’t. It’s the cost of business. I begrudge none a Championship opportunity.The Championship experience? Docherty, Berry, Godden, then Kaminski, Burke, Bell, JRC, (Bree) and now Clarke, Dykes & Coady are/ were the grown ups - 4 free transfers, 3 loans, 4 transfer fees (Godden, Kaminski, Burke, JRC ) including overall 3 injury profiles (reflected in contracts). Hernandez & Roussillon? Entirely peripheral short term fixes. The recent loans? You don’t think Coady, Chambers, Clarke bring balance, experience and/ or skills we didn’t have. The Stoke fixture included 8 starters with proven Championship CVs.So some money spent. Status, attendances & revenues improved. Yes, the football has at times been bloody awful but right now who gives a shit?I had few issues with the initial SMT but no matter the titles having built “their towers of influence” they evidenced zero cohesion. GFP took a view on their collective performance and via a temporary Non Exec Chair Carter brought a hitherto unseen clarity to the executive. A solid if unspectacular 60+ weeks in, he presents as every inch a results based committed team player.A new CEO? Absolutely. To replace Rodwell? Maybe. But what to spend beyond the investors budget? To control the Manager? With what football expertise? You want another Methven? Sandgaard? Southall? Another Technical Director? What another Scott? Sandgaard Junior? Roddy? Were Scott’s signings so impressive? Methvens? Sandgaards? Roddy’s? At least Rodwell played the game to a decent standard. Can anyone even now really explain just exactly what a highly rewarded Head of Performance was actually accountable for …..that the Manager wasn’t?How much do you think we were paying that hierarchy? As a matter of interest where would spend your money? Across the executive or in the clubhouse? £13m per annum funding appears for now to be what this group of investors has its head around. No it’s not cheap and not necessarily an overly long term commitment but £3-4m p.a. individual losses for now, within each of their overall wider investment portfolio within Corporate USA, are likely far from unsustainable.If all this angst is just about Jones…..I get it.Jones is no less fallible than the majority of his profession but if you do appoint him you most certainly have to empower him to work to his methodology and structure or you don’t appoint him at all. To even consider his appointment in the first place you were always talking about managing a club not simply coaching a squad. Many will recall, he rejected our approach before Appleton was appointed.He, with no meaningful CEO and despite an under performing Technical Director secured a surprise momentum based promotion largely on the back of the sale of one player ….and just two winter loan transfers. The senior squad could have hardly been smaller from which we almost immediately lost 3 key contributors with Small moving on a Bosman to Preston and Godden and Edwards through injury.I repeat has it been pretty? No, but nobody promised you a rose garden.
Will it ever be? Probably not for a long while.
Is Jones above criticism? No, some of his décisions need to be challenged and some of his football has been downright ugly but be very clear he crucially is signed into the resourcing, development and specifically targeted recruitment strategy set by the boards fiscal boundaries and benchmarks.He and they appear to be on the same “value for money” page working to the agreed recruitment constraints to embrace the key discipline of developing a squad « to deliver more than the sum of it’s parts ».Hugely committed to the task Jones continues to work tirelessly to drive this business forward. Unlike many I can respect he is unadulteratedly himself. Unlikely to ever compromise on his structures & methodology he can on an occasion no doubt be a pain to work with. His football is palpably not for everyone be it player or supporter (me included) but in this industry, right now, for us hit the points target and that’s ok! You can either accept and support the direction of travel here or not but any abuse is both entirely unnecessary and counterproductive.I could add an even longer postscript speaking to the detail of why these investors have chosen this particular strategy but this post is already too long.
I continue to believe Jones remains the best option for this board, for this relegation fight, and very likely for their continuing business strategy.I very much regret if it is not for you.20 -
Please for the love of god, no one quote that (excellent) post9
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Excellent post grapevine very similar to my views on the owners and their successes and failures.0
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Exactly this. For context, Southampton had a midfielder who cost more than our entire 18 man squad.SouthLincsAddick said:
That original list is so misleading.AberystwythAddick said:I saw this on Twitter, written out this is dire recruitment.
We have the third worst player budget in the league. While the fees are big compared to L1 days they are peanuts in this league and the real cost to any clubs budget are wages and we simply can’t compete with anyone outside the bottom three. That’s why we’ve taken big gambles on L1 players or Championship quality players who are injury prone.
I don’t think fans can get their heads around how much we’re at a disadvantage coming up from L1. It’s sad and frustrating that fans think we’re on the same playing field as most Championship clubs, we’re not, we’re bottom three.4 -
You’re right, it is possible, just look at Carey, he was on a free but consider the disadvantages we have. We have the 3rd worst player budget in the league. For the best players in L1 we will get out bid by every other team when offering wages. Also look at the options for the player, does he want to uproot his family to move to Charlton when there’s say a 50% chance that we are relegated and the family would have to be uprooted again. No team is safe from relegation but he would have more confidence moving to Wrexham, Birmingham or QPR, simply because he knows the player budget is higher. Saying we should pluck great players from L1 (and not the ones we signed) is purposely over simplifying the process and wilfully ignoring the realities of the market. Money and certainty talks in this world and we are bottom three when it comes to that, at the moment we’re outperforming the market, 12 more points and it will have worked.Crispywood said:
We’ve seen Norwich pick up Makama for 1.2M, QPR pick up Burrell for 1M, Bristol City picked Randall up 860k, Derby Morris for 2M, Wrexham Thomason for 1M, QPR Kone 3M all from clubs in L1 this year. Yes it’s a risk and not every signing is going to work out, but just because we don’t have an insane budget doesn’t mean we have to say well every signing is going to be bad because we can’t financially compete.SouthLincsAddick said:
That original list is so misleading.AberystwythAddick said:I saw this on Twitter, written out this is dire recruitment.
We have the third worst player budget in the league. While the fees are big compared to L1 days they are peanuts in this league and the real cost to any clubs budget are wages and we simply can’t compete with anyone outside the bottom three. That’s why we’ve taken big gambles on L1 players or Championship quality players who are injury prone.
I don’t think fans can get their heads around how much we’re at a disadvantage coming up from L1. It’s sad and frustrating that fans think we’re on the same playing field as most Championship clubs, we’re not, we’re bottom three.1 -
As always @Grapevine49 that’s an excellent cogent summary that I doubt many would much argue with but I’m a little unclear as to whom you are responding if anyone.4
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Great post Grapevine and sentiments I totally agree with. No of course it’s not perfect but there is no doubt in my opinion that progress is being made under these owners and NJ which is surely what all Charlton supporters want.0
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Yes. Without checking it does feel like we’re able to do that more against the better sides. Where we struggle sometimes is when we’re at home against lower/lesser sides when we’re expected to win.fenaddick said:
You mean like he did yesterday with a different formation to start the game and restrict the opposition and then a switch back to be more open and get a goal?The Red Robin said:
It requires flexibility and a coach being tofenaddick said:I haven’t looked for data to back this up but it feels to me like teams in transition often do will against “big” teams but struggle with the matches they should win. I think there’s a freedom that comes with knowing even a draw is a good result
adapt to the opposition.0 -
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Such a long post Grapevine I got bored halfway through. Why use one word when twenty will do.8
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Why did you bother to use 18 words when you could have just used zero?raytreacy said:Such a long post Grapevine I got bored halfway through. Why use one word when twenty will do.15 -
It's a good post. Just a bit tricky to read on a mobile without hurting the right thumb. Will re-read on the desktop.2
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But I wanna!!fenaddick said:Please for the love of god, no one quote that (excellent) post1 -
fenaddick said:Please for the love of god, no one quote that (excellent) postAlmeriaddick said:
🥱zzzzzzzzzzGrapevine49 said:Failed in...
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What happens when we draw?Gravesend_Addick said:This thread makes me chuckle.
The Jones in crowd are on here when we win.
The Jones out crowd are on here when we lose.
Football fans are a fickle bunch0 -
Any chance of a Swahili translation for our Kenyan friends?Grapevine49 said:[Very long we'll reasoned post snipped]0 -
'I could add an even longer postscript speaking to the detail of why these investors have chosen this particular strategy but this post is already too long.'
Dodged a bullet!
;-)
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If that’s the summary count me out of the full version, many thanks in advanceShootersHillGuru said:As always @Grapevine49 that’s an excellent cogent summary that I doubt many would much argue with but I’m a little unclear as to whom you are responding if anyone.3 -
I accept I can never have the time back again and I wish I had put the bins out before reading Grapevine's post but it raised many germane points about not only Nathan Jones, the present incumbent, but also the husbandry of CAFC.
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A long post mainly about our ownership; on a thread about Nathan Jones.
Lots of relevant and reasonable comments but not sure why there is the need to dig at fans for critisising the owners, on a thread where people generally haven't. 🤷1 -
The Red Robin said:A good battling point. Stoke and QPR home performances were also very good. Which makes Millwall away and Pompey at home even more baffling.
Both Millwall and Pompey played very well on the day and scored good goals as well as poor defensive play by Cafc which also saw mistakes from Kaminski.
Thomas is in credit over the season but dropped a clanger against Portsmouth.
The Millwall game saw everyone lose their battles and played poorly with only TC anywhere near the required standard.
Back in August On the NTT20 podcast with George Elek and Ali Maxwell both thought Charlton could stay up but wondered if the Charlton fans could accept losing around 19 games in their 1st season back in the Championship.
We have lost 13 so 19 will probably be about the number we will lose with 13 matches to go.
My prediction back in early August that Charlton would finish 17th and 10 points ahead of the 22nd position could still come to fruition but only if we have no repeat of the terrible performance against Millwall and the shocking 1st half against Pompey.
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While the Millwall capitulation was unforgivable, I don't think the Pompey defeat was anywhere near as bad as nany are saying. We didn't play well but various factors conspired against us.soapboxsam said:The Red Robin said:A good battling point. Stoke and QPR home performances were also very good. Which makes Millwall away and Pompey at home even more baffling.
Both Millwall and Pompey played very well on the day and scored good goals as well as poor defensive play by Cafc which also saw mistakes from Kaminski.
Thomas is in credit over the season but dropped a clanger against Portsmouth.
The Millwall game saw everyone lose their battles and played poorly with only TC anywhere near the required standard.
Back in August On the NTT20 podcast with George Elek and Ali Maxwell both thought Charlton could stay up but wondered if the Charlton fans could accept losing around 19 games in their 1st season back in the Championship.
We have lost 13 so 19 will probably be about the number we will lose with 13 matches to go.
My prediction back in early August that Charlton would finish 17th and 10 points ahead of the 22nd position could still come to fruition but only if we have no repeat of the terrible performance against Millwall and the shocking 1st half against Pompey.
We could have gone one up in the first minute but unfortunately it was Harry Clarke that went through and not someone like Sonny Carey.
The referee then proceeded to penalise our players every time they got anywhere near the Pompey players, brandishing yellow cards as if they were going out of fashion.
The real turning point was the huge cock-up by Kaminski, which just compounded the situation. Our players looked shell-shocked after that and never really recovered.5 -
Agreed we were just thoroughly outclassed and outplayed at Millwall. Pompey we were the architects of our own downfall and flat out handed it to Pompey. We score that Clarke sitter that end result doesn’t happen, same as it’s a different story if Kaminski didn’t drop two clangers and the ref wasn’t giving them pens and us yellows left right and centresuperclive98 said:
While the Millwall capitulation was unforgivable, I don't think the Pompey defeat was anywhere near as bad as nany are saying. We didn't play well but various factors conspired against us.soapboxsam said:The Red Robin said:A good battling point. Stoke and QPR home performances were also very good. Which makes Millwall away and Pompey at home even more baffling.
Both Millwall and Pompey played very well on the day and scored good goals as well as poor defensive play by Cafc which also saw mistakes from Kaminski.
Thomas is in credit over the season but dropped a clanger against Portsmouth.
The Millwall game saw everyone lose their battles and played poorly with only TC anywhere near the required standard.
Back in August On the NTT20 podcast with George Elek and Ali Maxwell both thought Charlton could stay up but wondered if the Charlton fans could accept losing around 19 games in their 1st season back in the Championship.
We have lost 13 so 19 will probably be about the number we will lose with 13 matches to go.
My prediction back in early August that Charlton would finish 17th and 10 points ahead of the 22nd position could still come to fruition but only if we have no repeat of the terrible performance against Millwall and the shocking 1st half against Pompey.
We could have gone one up in the first minute but unfortunately it was Harry Clarke that went through and not someone like Sonny Carey.
The referee then proceeded to penalise our players every time they got anywhere near the Pompey players, brandishing yellow cards as if they were going out of fashion.
The real turning point was the huge cock-up by Kaminski, which just compounded the situation. Our players looked shell-shocked after that and never really recovered.0 -
superclive98 said:
While the Millwall capitulation was unforgivable, I don't think the Pompey defeat was anywhere near as bad as nany are saying. We didn't play well but various factors conspired against us.soapboxsam said:The Red Robin said:A good battling point. Stoke and QPR home performances were also very good. Which makes Millwall away and Pompey at home even more baffling.
Both Millwall and Pompey played very well on the day and scored good goals as well as poor defensive play by Cafc which also saw mistakes from Kaminski.
Thomas is in credit over the season but dropped a clanger against Portsmouth.
The Millwall game saw everyone lose their battles and played poorly with only TC anywhere near the required standard.
Back in August On the NTT20 podcast with George Elek and Ali Maxwell both thought Charlton could stay up but wondered if the Charlton fans could accept losing around 19 games in their 1st season back in the Championship.
We have lost 13 so 19 will probably be about the number we will lose with 13 matches to go.
My prediction back in early August that Charlton would finish 17th and 10 points ahead of the 22nd position could still come to fruition but only if we have no repeat of the terrible performance against Millwall and the shocking 1st half against Pompey.
We could have gone one up in the first minute but unfortunately it was Harry Clarke that went through and not someone like Sonny Carey.
The referee then proceeded to penalise our players every time they got anywhere near the Pompey players, brandishing yellow cards as if they were going out of fashion.
The real turning point was the huge cock-up by Kaminski, which just compounded the situation. Our players looked shell-shocked after that and never really recovered.
Good post 👏🏻
Yes, I agree there was mitigation with the ref giving out cards to Cafc players which inhibited our players and Harry Clarke was affected the most but he had
only got himself to blame for kicking the ball away.
We did get our act together 2nd half but going 3 down, it was just damage limitation after that and 1-3 was a reflection of Pompey superiority over the whole game.
They proved it was no fluke with another 3-1 away win at the Den.0 -
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