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I am going to say it!! Yes I am, Nathan Jones......................
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Derby went up with Paul Warne who plays ugly stuff, league one promo specialist, upgrading him for Eustace and now they're in the play offs and certainly outclassed us the other week
Not expecting scintillating one touch football at all and don't disagree with the principle of solidity and the concept that to survive / succeed initially with a challenging budget / transition you can't be playing scintillating football - but this is a spectrum and I don't accept that you have to go as far to the extreme as we are with our style...
Bowyer's side just as one example was no Brazil 1970 and was based around solidity and some pretty blood and guts stuff on the whole but there was still more attacking impetus, strategy and variety than we have now, and his year in the championship was pretty much identical to the one we're having now, except under vastly more challenging circumstances in literally all respects
I hope the Jones' disciples are right, he keeps us up and then transitions and improves us greatly next season in terms of performances, results and style.1 -
Hate to break it to you, but Derby are 23rd for possession, 19th for XG, 21st for SOT, 21st for accurate passes etcpaulsturgess said:Derby went up with Paul Warne who plays ugly stuff, league one promo specialist, upgrading him for Eustace and now they're in the play offs and certainly outclassed us the other week
Not expecting scintillating one touch football at all and don't disagree with the principle of solidity and the concept that to survive / succeed initially with a challenging budget / transition you can't be playing scintillating football - but this is a spectrum and I don't accept that you have to go as far to the extreme as we are with our style...
Bowyer's side just as one example was no Brazil 1970 and was based around solidity and some pretty blood and guts stuff on the whole but there was still more attacking impetus, strategy and variety than we have now, and his year in the championship was pretty much identical to the one we're having now, except under vastly more challenging circumstances in literally all respects
I hope the Jones' disciples are right, he keeps us up and then transitions and improves us greatly next season in terms of performances, results and style.They have had one of the biggest net spends since Eustace came in dropping 7M on a forward 3M on a midfielder and so much more.
You physically couldn’t have picked a worse managerial switch to discredit your entire point if you tried. Eustace plays a very similar same style of football we do they just have a far better squad and a better manager you are basing your entire thesis off the one John Eustace game you have watched
what’s ironic in the reverse fixture we scored our best footballing goal of the season and in terms of attractive style of play we were better than them on that night12 -
I spose I have mixed two separate pointsCrispywood said:
Hate to break it to you, but Derby are 23rd for possession, 19th for XG, 21st for SOT, 21st for accurate passes etcpaulsturgess said:Derby went up with Paul Warne who plays ugly stuff, league one promo specialist, upgrading him for Eustace and now they're in the play offs and certainly outclassed us the other week
Not expecting scintillating one touch football at all and don't disagree with the principle of solidity and the concept that to survive / succeed initially with a challenging budget / transition you can't be playing scintillating football - but this is a spectrum and I don't accept that you have to go as far to the extreme as we are with our style...
Bowyer's side just as one example was no Brazil 1970 and was based around solidity and some pretty blood and guts stuff on the whole but there was still more attacking impetus, strategy and variety than we have now, and his year in the championship was pretty much identical to the one we're having now, except under vastly more challenging circumstances in literally all respects
I hope the Jones' disciples are right, he keeps us up and then transitions and improves us greatly next season in terms of performances, results and style.They have had one of the biggest net spends since Eustace came in dropping 7M on a forward 3M on a midfielder and so much more.
You physically couldn’t have picked a worse managerial switch to discredit your entire point if you tried. Eustace plays a very similar same style of football we do they just have a far better squad and a better manager you are basing your entire thesis off the one John Eustace game you have watched
what’s ironic in the reverse fixture we scored our best footballing goal of the season and in terms of attractive style of play we were better than them on that night
the main reason I made the point about Warne/Eustace was a little bit in response to oohaah's comments about upgrading / switching the managers, wasn't particularly aware of their playing style although I know they're not a tiki taka outfit - style was less relevant to that element so fair enough regarding your point on Derby's system
the point I make about playing style is I suppose separate to that concept and something I stand by...
i.e. I don't begrudge Jones playing a robust defence-first system, but my opinion is that we are too far at the end of that spectrum, we never ever sway from that which is why it is nigh on impossible for us the moment we concede first
we look like we barely train or plan for any kind of attacking and certainly for any kind of attacking beyond our default attacking system, I believe any team has to have players, formations, systems which allow you to go more offensive and try and throw the kitchen sink at teams and put them under sustained pressure and we are completely bereft of that
pretty much every single game we've lost this season (or drawn when hoping/expecting to win) we have barely laid a glove on the opponents in attempting to get back into the game just gone down with a whimper... QPR peppered us in that 8 minute stoppage time the other week, even games we've been losing desperate to push for a goal to get back into the game we've barely asked anything of the oppo
Anyway, hope Jonesy' gets us to rise to the occasion tomorrow and repeats his Stoke vengeance, if he does I don't give a monkey's if we nick it with 23% possession and a 0.1 XG (both of which are likely!!!) !!!1 -
Get rid. Clearly lost the dressing room and the players aren't putting in any effort for him.
Wibble.20 -
Can talk about the football being boring and crap but if that’s any other manager. There is no chance we come away with a point from that. Their one midfielder cost more than Jones has spent in his entire spell as Charlton manager17
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And that is what people forget when assessing our defeats.Crispywood said:Can talk about the football being boring and crap but if that’s any other manager. There is no chance we come away with a point from that. Their one midfielder cost more than Jones has spent in his entire spell as Charlton managerIf we stay up, he’s outperformed. Great result and let’s go on Tuesday.16 -
get a grip. Many teams have taken points off Saints this season, Oxford United beat them at Xmas.Crispywood said:Can talk about the football being boring and crap but if that’s any other manager. There is no chance we come away with a point from that. Their one midfielder cost more than Jones has spent in his entire spell as Charlton manager1 -
In the spell they won 2 from 9 games. They were the most inform team in the country last 5 games heading into today. Not to mention their starting XI cost 95M ours under 3M. Perfectly acceptable to criticise after games like Pompey but have to give flowers after games like todaypaulsturgess said:
get a grip. Many teams have taken points off Saints this season, Oxford United beat them at Xmas.Crispywood said:Can talk about the football being boring and crap but if that’s any other manager. There is no chance we come away with a point from that. Their one midfielder cost more than Jones has spent in his entire spell as Charlton manager8 -
Having seen the progress he’s made with us so far, and his record of producing successive 19th, 12th and 6th placed finishes in this league with Luton 2019-2022 makes me think he’s still got plenty of scope to improve us from our current position.FirenzeAddick said:I don't like Jones as a character and I don't think he holds any affinity towards the fans, but there is zero doubt he has done an excellent job in progressing the club.My concern like many others is whether he can evolve this side over the summer (subject to us staying up). It is not that we purely want to see beautiful football.... We are just very one dimensional as a team and he clearly has a massive blind spot on what is required in the middle.To progress its clear we need to keep our solidity, but we need to be able to ask questions of teams in different ways by recruiting players who can offer inventive & creative passing, better movement, or by introducing pace in new areas etc.If we don't do that over the summer we stand no chance of developing and moving up the table in coming seasons.
If, in a couple of years, there is no sign of progress then maybe there’s a conversation to be had. But I see no reason to doubt him at this moment.
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No doubt about it, Jones is a chippy little Welsh prick with a massive issue with forgetting any slights against him.For large portions of every game, his brand of football is unattractive. However he isnt stupid and he's not tactically naive. Not everything he plans comes off, sometimes that is very much him being out thought by oppo manager but quite often its also the limited nature of our players vs ones that cost 10x more and have much greater experience of playing in the championship or prem.
He's done well for us and I believe will continue to do well for us and we will continue to improve both players individually, the squad and playing as a team adding more variation and quality.
You may not like him, but we should support him.20 -
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We didn’t overcome a Johan cruyff inspired 1970s Holland team, and saints have not been in particularly great form notwithstanding your slightly exaggerated “statement” so offering Jones the England job off the back of it is a little bit much.Crispywood said:
In the spell they won 2 from 9 games. They were the most inform team in the country last 5 games heading into today. Not to mention their starting XI cost 95M ours under 3M. Perfectly acceptable to criticise after games like Pompey but have to give flowers after games like todaypaulsturgess said:
get a grip. Many teams have taken points off Saints this season, Oxford United beat them at Xmas.Crispywood said:Can talk about the football being boring and crap but if that’s any other manager. There is no chance we come away with a point from that. Their one midfielder cost more than Jones has spent in his entire spell as Charlton manager
Completely agree with your last sentence. A very decent, unexpected and hard fought point away at a mid table/ underperforming championship side, so very well done to Jones and the team, they really put it in and defended the box resolutely, a few more battling showings like that should be enough to see us over the line and into next season0 -
A good battling point. Stoke and QPR home performances were also very good. Which makes Millwall away and Pompey at home even more baffling.
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I haven’t looked for data to back this up but it feels to me like teams in transition often do will against “big” teams but struggle with the matches they should win. I think there’s a freedom that comes with knowing even a draw is a good result3
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To think there was unrest between these two
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It is noted when we loose 5-1, and it is also noted how we come back from that 👏🏻
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I think (assuming we stay up), that the summer will tell us a lot about Jones and our owners. I think that our summer recruitment where we looked to take good players from league one was a gamble that sadly misfired very badly. It left us short in key areas and forced Jones into playing players out of position and I believe shaped our rather negative approach to games. Very much the attitude that you start every game with a point.The issue of quality has been addressed in some ways with the signing of Championship experience with the likes of Bell, Dykes Bree, Clarke and Burke and the change has made a big difference. Problem being that some of those players are rather injury prone and the others are not our players. Yes there’s always an argument for signing potential and Collins Sichenje looks already to be of a quality we need to be looking at. Still a gamble but promising. He wasn’t cheap though and that’s the sort of fee we need to be expecting to pay at least for the required quality.I’d hope to see a big upgrade to our midfield and attack for next season. Anything less than adding pace, mobility and quality in midfield and goals up front will leave us back where we currently find ourselves in looking in the rear view mirror and not upwards and forwards. Jones need s to accept that he needs to deliver a better style of football and the owners need to recognise that you can’t survive and thrive in The Championship feeding on scraps. Time will tell.4
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It requires flexibility and a coach being tofenaddick said:I haven’t looked for data to back this up but it feels to me like teams in transition often do will against “big” teams but struggle with the matches they should win. I think there’s a freedom that comes with knowing even a draw is a good result
adapt to the opposition.0 -
9M in TV revenue, bigger prize bonus for finishing above the relegation spots than L1 playoffs.ShootersHillGuru said:I think (assuming we stay up), that the summer will tell us a lot about Jones and our owners. I think that our summer recruitment where we looked to take good players from league one was a gamble that sadly misfired very badly. It left us short in key areas and forced Jones into playing players out of position and I believe shaped our rather negative approach to games. Very much the attitude that you start every game with a point.The issue of quality has been addressed in some ways with the signing of Championship experience with the likes of Bell, Dykes Bree, Clarke and Burke and the change has made a big difference. Problem being that some of those players are rather injury prone and the others are not our players. Yes there’s always an argument for signing potential and Collins Sichenje looks already to be of a quality we need to be looking at. Still a gamble but promising. He wasn’t cheap though and that’s the sort of fee we need to be expecting to pay at least for the required quality.I’d hope to see a big upgrade to our midfield and attack for next season. Anything less than adding pace, mobility and quality in midfield and goals up front will leave us back where we currently find ourselves in looking in the rear view mirror and not upwards and forwards. Jones need s to accept that he needs to deliver a better style of football and the owners need to recognise that you can’t survive and thrive in The Championship feeding on scraps. Time will tell.Have Berry Godden and Taylor off the wage bill this summerThen have a lot of squad/fringe players to sell like Macca, Mitchell etc can even argue Could even try and sell Tanto Apter and Kelman have enough credit in the bank for a top L1 club to try and buy them.We should have a good opportunity to raise a lot of necessary funds for the summer2 -
You mean like he did yesterday with a different formation to start the game and restrict the opposition and then a switch back to be more open and get a goal?The Red Robin said:
It requires flexibility and a coach being tofenaddick said:I haven’t looked for data to back this up but it feels to me like teams in transition often do will against “big” teams but struggle with the matches they should win. I think there’s a freedom that comes with knowing even a draw is a good result
adapt to the opposition.1 -
I think and hope that’ll be the plan. I think Knibbs could yet be a decent acquisition and I’d imagine that Kelman might be kept with the squad but any of the other last summer league one recruits with the exception Carey would be surplus. Then we have Berry, Mitchell, Ahadme, Taylor and Gilesphey to move on. Ramsey I think will leave with Sichenje his replacement. A busy summer and hopefully one that sees us much stronger because we’re low on Championship quality in depth right now.Crispywood said:
9M in TV revenue, bigger prize bonus for finishing above the relegation spots than L1 playoffs.ShootersHillGuru said:I think (assuming we stay up), that the summer will tell us a lot about Jones and our owners. I think that our summer recruitment where we looked to take good players from league one was a gamble that sadly misfired very badly. It left us short in key areas and forced Jones into playing players out of position and I believe shaped our rather negative approach to games. Very much the attitude that you start every game with a point.The issue of quality has been addressed in some ways with the signing of Championship experience with the likes of Bell, Dykes Bree, Clarke and Burke and the change has made a big difference. Problem being that some of those players are rather injury prone and the others are not our players. Yes there’s always an argument for signing potential and Collins Sichenje looks already to be of a quality we need to be looking at. Still a gamble but promising. He wasn’t cheap though and that’s the sort of fee we need to be expecting to pay at least for the required quality.I’d hope to see a big upgrade to our midfield and attack for next season. Anything less than adding pace, mobility and quality in midfield and goals up front will leave us back where we currently find ourselves in looking in the rear view mirror and not upwards and forwards. Jones need s to accept that he needs to deliver a better style of football and the owners need to recognise that you can’t survive and thrive in The Championship feeding on scraps. Time will tell.Have Berry Godden and Taylor off the wage bill this summerThen have a lot of squad/fringe players to sell like Macca, Mitchell etc can even argue Could even try and sell Tanto Apter and Kelman have enough credit in the bank for a top L1 club to try and buy them.We should have a good opportunity to raise a lot of necessary funds for the summer3 -
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That original list is so misleading.AberystwythAddick said:
I saw this on Twitter, written out this is dire recruitment.
We have the third worst player budget in the league. While the fees are big compared to L1 days they are peanuts in this league and the real cost to any clubs budget are wages and we simply can’t compete with anyone outside the bottom three. That’s why we’ve taken big gambles on L1 players or Championship quality players who are injury prone.
I don’t think fans can get their heads around how much we’re at a disadvantage coming up from L1. It’s sad and frustrating that fans think we’re on the same playing field as most Championship clubs, we’re not, we’re bottom three.7 -
The transfer strategy seemed to be bring in experienced championship defenders on frees/cheap and then spend on upcoming league one players on the attack. Apter, Kelman and Knibbs were some of the better players in league one and relatively young so the fees are in line with what you would expect. The odd thing is that since Jones is defacto making the decision on transfers, why bring in players you clearly weren’t going to play from the start. The one that made no sense to me was Tanto. He didn’t even start half the games for Stockport last year and always felt like a league one average forward to me.1
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We needed depth as well as starters, just look at our bench for the playoff final - AMB, Mitchell, Watson, Berry, Anderson, Aneke and Mbick.Bostonaddick said:The transfer strategy seemed to be bring in experienced championship defenders on frees/cheap and then spend on upcoming league one players on the attack. Apter, Kelman and Knibbs were some of the better players in league one and relatively young so the fees are in line with what you would expect. The odd thing is that since Jones is defacto making the decision on transfers, why bring in players you clearly weren’t going to play from the start. The one that made no sense to me was Tanto. He didn’t even start half the games for Stockport last year and always felt like a league one average forward to me.
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I get why the club took the strategy they did, bringing in potential to step up, what backfired putting Edward’s injury to one side which in imo was the biggest loss to us, was we put too many of the potentially good players in the team all at the same time. The experience brought in, in January has proved that, it feels like we underestimated the improvement in quality of the championship. But we are fighting all the way, just got to eradicate the out of the blue crap performance we keep getting.0
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We’ve seen Norwich pick up Makama for 1.2M, QPR pick up Burrell for 1M, Bristol City picked Randall up 860k, Derby Morris for 2M, Wrexham Thomason for 1M, QPR Kone 3M all from clubs in L1 this year. Yes it’s a risk and not every signing is going to work out, but just because we don’t have an insane budget doesn’t mean we have to say well every signing is going to be bad because we can’t financially compete.SouthLincsAddick said:
That original list is so misleading.AberystwythAddick said:I saw this on Twitter, written out this is dire recruitment.
We have the third worst player budget in the league. While the fees are big compared to L1 days they are peanuts in this league and the real cost to any clubs budget are wages and we simply can’t compete with anyone outside the bottom three. That’s why we’ve taken big gambles on L1 players or Championship quality players who are injury prone.
I don’t think fans can get their heads around how much we’re at a disadvantage coming up from L1. It’s sad and frustrating that fans think we’re on the same playing field as most Championship clubs, we’re not, we’re bottom three.2 -
I'm slightly confused why some people think all our summer signings were signed with the intention of being fully ready for starting Championship football. None of them really had ever played in the Championship and we knew this which is why we sensibly spread our incomings.
I'm certain that Apter, Oloafe, Kelman and Knibbs were brought in to be squad players with the intention that they will improve as they are here. They are all young and as such should be judged on their potential as much as their output so far.
Interestingly, the one who I thought we would see more of, given he's 25 and a Championship regular in terms of his career, is JRC. He seems in danger of becoming the championship Terry Taylor where fans think he can offer more but Jones just doesn't seem to trust him.
And for all his detractors, Kaminski only cost £1m and is currently on course for the golden glove.5 -
Ha, have just seen someone has started a thread pretty much stating my point above.0
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The problem is there’s not being championship ready and then arguing whether they can be.RC_CAFC said:I'm slightly confused why some people think all our summer signings were signed with the intention of being fully ready for starting Championship football. None of them really had ever played in the Championship and we knew this which is why we sensibly spread our incomings.
I'm certain that Apter, Oloafe, Kelman and Knibbs were brought in to be squad players with the intention that they will improve as they are here. They are all young and as such should be judged on their potential as much as their output so far.
Interestingly, the one who I thought we would see more of, given he's 25 and a Championship regular in terms of his career, is JRC. He seems in danger of becoming the championship Terry Taylor where fans think he can offer more but Jones just doesn't seem to trust him.
And for all his detractors, Kaminski only cost £1m and is currently on course for the golden glove.I know people don’t rate TC and Leaburn which I can understand why but can’t deny they’ve improved as the seasons gone on.Apter tbf was treated unfairly but his best game first day of the season, Olaofe was a 10min cameo right at the start of the season and Kelman’s definitely had better games as the seasons gone on but he’s not developed one bit physically and we can argue he’s always been good in front of goal from his Orient days0 -
Salaries are a bigger indicator.Crispywood said:
We’ve seen Norwich pick up Makama for 1.2M, QPR pick up Burrell for 1M, Bristol City picked Randall up 860k, Derby Morris for 2M, Wrexham Thomason for 1M, QPR Kone 3M all from clubs in L1 this year. Yes it’s a risk and not every signing is going to work out, but just because we don’t have an insane budget doesn’t mean we have to say well every signing is going to be bad because we can’t financially compete.SouthLincsAddick said:
That original list is so misleading.AberystwythAddick said:I saw this on Twitter, written out this is dire recruitment.
We have the third worst player budget in the league. While the fees are big compared to L1 days they are peanuts in this league and the real cost to any clubs budget are wages and we simply can’t compete with anyone outside the bottom three. That’s why we’ve taken big gambles on L1 players or Championship quality players who are injury prone.
I don’t think fans can get their heads around how much we’re at a disadvantage coming up from L1. It’s sad and frustrating that fans think we’re on the same playing field as most Championship clubs, we’re not, we’re bottom three.3 -
We’ve not got the salaries to compete with other clubs granted but if there’s no other competition you can easily outpay L1 clubsThe Red Robin said:
Salaries are a bigger indicator.Crispywood said:
We’ve seen Norwich pick up Makama for 1.2M, QPR pick up Burrell for 1M, Bristol City picked Randall up 860k, Derby Morris for 2M, Wrexham Thomason for 1M, QPR Kone 3M all from clubs in L1 this year. Yes it’s a risk and not every signing is going to work out, but just because we don’t have an insane budget doesn’t mean we have to say well every signing is going to be bad because we can’t financially compete.SouthLincsAddick said:
That original list is so misleading.AberystwythAddick said:I saw this on Twitter, written out this is dire recruitment.
We have the third worst player budget in the league. While the fees are big compared to L1 days they are peanuts in this league and the real cost to any clubs budget are wages and we simply can’t compete with anyone outside the bottom three. That’s why we’ve taken big gambles on L1 players or Championship quality players who are injury prone.
I don’t think fans can get their heads around how much we’re at a disadvantage coming up from L1. It’s sad and frustrating that fans think we’re on the same playing field as most Championship clubs, we’re not, we’re bottom three.0
