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England Cricket 2025
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I meant it as a kind of reference to the bigger picture and not just Atkinson's lack of ability.killerandflash said:carly burn said:The Gus Atkinson dismissal pretty much sums up this whole sorry mess.
A player completely incapable of reading the room.
To be fair that was after Stokes had got out. With just 9, 10, 11 left we were unlikely to last for a meaningful length of time, especially with the floodlights on.
Looking back, for all the failings with the bat, allowing Australia to bat on until halfway through Day 3 killed us. The runs, but also having to bat under the lights with a new ball. They were 329-6 at one point. Get them all out for 411 instead of 511, we would have batted far longer when it was daylight on Day 3, and the Aussie bowlers would have been more tired in the nighttime session.
Preparation for this has been woeful..and I'm not just talking about a pink ball practice game a few days before the test, although even that may have helped a bit.
Atkinson's dismissal just summed up for me how ill prepared we are for this.
He decided to hit an embarrassing loose shot.. not because it's how McCullum told him play . He did it because it's all he knows.
He hasn't the first clue of how to knuckle down in the Aussie heat and hostility with the scoreboard bearing down on you. How can you head out to Australia with a squad containing the singular mind set of scoring our way quickly out of any mess?
I just saw McCullum in an Aussie interview admit that he thought the heavy roller cost us before the start of the second innings? Because it was only going to give us a limited window to score runs!?! Wtf is this fella on about? It's Test f*****g cricket! Not the big bash!!
They've tried re-inventing the wheel. They've ignored a stock of probably more than capable players in favour of these 'Golden' 13 or 14 chosen ones. And quite frankly, if allowed to continue will probably set England's ability to compete at the highest level of test cricket back years.
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Despite attempting to watch every ball live in the 1st and 2nd test this is my 1st post in this Ashes series !
Feel emotional because of the lack of sleep though I'm not more dozy than Pope, Smith, Brook, Crawley etc and their shot selection. Doesn't matter how well Zak played in both innings in this test it seems mandatory that he will get out to a bad shot and the C+B wasn't a surprise.
Duckett had his worse match(batting and fielding) for nearly a decade since pouring a pint over Jimmy's head !
No surprise that the World class players show their talent in an Ashes battle. Starc and Smith are immense and only a brilliant one handed diving catch by Jacks, saw Shithousery specialist Steve Smith out for 61.
Brook is such a talented batsman and perhaps test cricket was too easy for him in his first couple of years but if he wants to be a Root or Steve Smith he needs to get his brain in gear.
England snatched defeat from the Jaws of victory in two days (1st inns lead) in the 1st test and got out batted, out fielded, out bowled and out thought in this Pink ball Day/night test.
The Mantra of "Go hard" isn't enough as that should be a given in Ashes cricket; how about use some nous.
Revenge for Smith when taking a brilliant catch in the slips to remove Jacks who along with Stokes had played gritty test cricket over their 96 run partnership and 36.4 overs I believe in around 3 hours.
2-0 down 🤷🏻♂️🤷🏼♂️
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When Glenn McGrath said his normal 5-0 I didn't realise he meant the Ashes would be won in 5 days of test cricket despite the gutsy partnership today (6th day)0
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The only slight glimmer of hope is Jacks and Stokes did dig in today. Maybe, just maybe, they’ll realise that time at the crease is important against this Aussie side.Survive Stark, then we can score.Agree on the comments that Brook should be in trouble too. Arguably has the most talent out of any batsman out there, however is just completely brain dead 50% of the time.
Weirdly, Crawley is one of the very few coming out of this test with any credit. Over 100 runs scored across both innings. He did his job.1 -
Really don't know what all the angst is about. It's a 5 match series. We are 2 down with another 3 matches to play. We can 3-2. I mean, teams can come from back from being 2 down to win can't they....😀.4
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We could.golfaddick said:Really don't know what all the angst is about. It's a 5 match series. We are 2 down with another 3 matches to play. We can 3-2. I mean, teams can come from back from being 2 down to win can't they....😀.
We won't.
Stokes and McCullum's comments were interesting - obviously we're not party to all the behind the scenes stuff, but feels like they've spent 3 years refusing to back down from their approach and suggesting it's 'just the way we play' etc, now they are suddenly up in arms that some players can't read a match situation.
Brook for example.has only ever played Tests under these two, so he's had it drilled home that yeah sometimes you'll lose your wicket but you did what we asked, were aggressive, scored quickly, it's an occupational hazard. Look at his comments last year after a one day loss - "If you get caught somewhere on the boundary or in the field then who cares?".
Feel like they've indoctrinated players to one method then are criticising them for not doing the opposite. They had a chance to rein Bazball in a bit after the initial "shock" tactics of it worked, and make it an sensible bit positive approach, and they didn't do it. Now those comments are far too little, far too late.
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As soon as we let Australia drag their first innings on past 500 the Test match was gone in reality.2
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I can’t see McCallum back tracking away from Bazball. To do so he is admitting he was wrong.
If he doesn’t back track, then I think he should be removed.
I, like I believe most people, aren’t asking for negative cricket.
We want positive but sensible cricket.
A Test openers first job is to try and last until the shine is off the new ball, say 20 overs.
Batsman should “get their eye in”/ play themselves in before being too adventurous.
We all know this.
McCallum has avoided the challenge of teaching/coaching batsman when and how to attack and defend and has as good as said, throw your bat at as many balls as you can.
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Is it like football bets where if you're two up its settled.IdleHans said:I've stuck a bet on the Aussies to win 5-0 (odds of 3/2) and will wait for the winnings to hit my account. Too depressing following these arrogant brain-dead players while they toss away the best chance they'll ever have to win the ashes in Australia.1 -
What’s interesting is they have made Brook Vice Captain and Captain of the short form side ………
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It's quite funny listening to the many podcasts, including English past greats explaining where we are going wrong.
Not being tempted by wide balls,.. Bowling a consistent and disciplined line and length... Digging in and seeing a bowler off is not a sign of weakness.......yada
They're pretty much stating the very basic fundamentals of test cricket but they are kind of presenting it in a way as if it's some sort of new phenomenon. The effect of 3 odd years of Bazball I suppose.
It must be bizarre for them having to sit there and talk it , just as it is for us listening to it.3 -
I agree, in defence of the commentators and pundits a lot of them have been openly sceptical even if they are being so just to balance the hysteria over the new way of approaching test cricket. And it did inject interest and excitement back into the test team. Any good test side seems to have worked out what we are doing though and nulified it. Long it out, they will get tired especially in Australia and the sub-continent and make our bowlers work harder than they want to.carly burn said:It's quite funny listening to the many podcasts, including English past greats explaining where we are going wrong.
Not being tempted by wide balls,.. Bowling a consistent and disciplined line and length... Digging in and seeing a bowler off is not a sign of weakness.......yada
They're pretty much stating the very basic fundamentals of test cricket but they are kind of presenting it in a way as if it's some sort of new phenomenon. The effect of 3 odd years of Bazball I suppose.
It must be bizarre for them having to sit there and talk it , just as it is for us listening to it.
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This is, indeed, the flaw with the Bazball process. In the same way a head coach in the PL such as Pep might impose a way of playing from U10s to the first team, county age group sides are coached to play in a certain way so that when those players get to the academy and then the first team they understand what that process is. That process, however, won't be the same for 4-day, 50 over and T20.Covered End said:I can’t see McCallum back tracking away from Bazball. To do so he is admitting he was wrong.
If he doesn’t back track, then I think he should be removed.
I, like I believe most people, aren’t asking for negative cricket.
We want positive but sensible cricket.
A Test openers first job is to try and last until the shine is off the new ball, say 20 overs.
Batsman should “get their eye in”/ play themselves in before being too adventurous.
We all know this.
McCallum has avoided the challenge of teaching/coaching batsman when and how to attack and defend and has as good as said, throw your bat at as many balls as you can.
If and when a player gets out coaches can then say one of two things - either the batter didn't execute the shot correctly and no blame is attached or that they didn't apply the process correctly in which case the batter is at fault. The issue is that England have been applying a T20 process to both Test and ODIs on the instruction of the coach and on the back of those batters having very little game time playing those longer codes too. McCullum won't hang them out to dry publicly because he has made this process very much his own. He's happy to succeed or fail by it. We can argue that our batters should all know better but, when "this is the way we play" is constantly being rammed down their throat, it can be difficult to go against that process.
There's a further underlying issue though. If you're a Root and you're told to go out and ramp the first ball then you might, as he did, do that once or twice until he realises that this isn't his game and not the way he has become England's greatest Test batsman. He has the standing not to follow that process but it is more difficult for the likes of Crawley, Duckett, Bethell and Brook, who have been specifically selected to do that, to go against McCullum's process.
How many times, for example, do we see Crawley throwing his hands at a ball in the first over when he hasn't even got the pace of the wicket? If he doesn't do that then McCullum will argue that he isn't following the process and will find someone else who will but Crawley, equally, knows that if he gets out doing that he won't get dropped because he's followed the process and McCullum will, as a politician might, publicly exaggerate his achievements in justifying his selection and failings.
This is why we see so few changes. These players are all part of the process. As long as they follow that then their place isn't in danger. It's also why someone who is an accumulator but who bats like Alastair Cook won't get picked by McCullum. They don't fit Bazball and runs in the CC aren't recognised unless you bat the Bazball way. In fact, as we've seen with the selection of Bethell, it's more important to play that way than to have actually scored even a hundred in the CC. He is an exceptionally talented player but talent alone isn't enough. You have to gain by experience by making big scores in the middle.6 -
I don't see how someone like Bethell ever develops into a top test player with the lack of cricket he seems to play , he won't be available to play the first block of the Championship because he'll be sitting on the bench at the IPL. Then it will be back into drinks carrying for the test squad and the odd white ball innings thrown in.
There's a very real chance he gets overtaken by some of the County young guns who will get the chance to bat week in week out and get time in the middle.6 -
Jon Norman compared Baz's style of management and coaching to that of Kevin Keegan earlier!
Absolutely great coming in when morale is low. Got his teams to play on the front foot with full on entertainment. A real crowd pleaser.
But when he got found out by superior opposition his whole foresight and game plan completely disintegrated with no answers whatsoever.7 -
Never in a million years are we going to come back from this.Nobody seems to learn so many snicks while attempting to drive,just leave the fucking ball,let the bowlers burn themselves out.how can we get a good score when your 2 and 3 batsmen both get ducks in one innings.Then when we need to dig in ,plenty of time to go,we get all out with stokes top scorer on 50.I will not mention the 5 dropped catches dont know how many runs that cost us.
Still never mind ,their best bowlers will be back soon.
Duckett,Pope and Brookes need to have a god look at themselves.2 -
Time to shatter the mafia like protection allowed to the chosen few. Arrogance and hubris are proving the downfall of this lot, especially the 'batters'
The issue of course is .. who t f could be their long term replacements ?3 -
In terms of potential no3 replacements I wonder if Jordan Cox would be the next name off the list? Or is he another one that's ultimately going to be more white ball?0
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We have a weirdly light squad when it comes to the batsmen. Leaving aside form issues, what happens if Crawley or Duckett break a finger and can't play? We have no other openers, and indeed no other players who you'd be happy shifting up to open. We already have a number 5 batting at 3.0
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Hope we lose 5-0 now.Get rid of Key and McCullum
yeah Bazball was exciting in full flow but it has been at least 2 years of everyone being jaded of the see ball hit ball mantra irrespective of the in game situation3 -
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Free day today thanks England.Only a couple of positives from this test are Crawley(who deserves stick when its deserved) who i thought batted well.Really got stuck in.And seeing a masterclass from Joe Root on how to bat in a test match.Class BATSMAN and i hope he goes on make more runs on this tour.....
Oh and the Gabba is a lovely stadium.Great place to watch cricket.i might think of coming again as Brisbane is a great city.
Back home Wednesday☹️5 -
Herein lies the problem,once a player gets established in the test squad,thats it,hardly a county game over 4 days,just 20-20,100,big bash,one dayers IPL,this is no way to develop test match cricketers.They need week in week out matches and situations whereby they need to be patient ,not feel they have to score at 6 an over all the time.MarcusH26 said:I don't see how someone like Bethell ever develops into a top test player with the lack of cricket he seems to play , he won't be available to play the first block of the Championship because he'll be sitting on the bench at the IPL. Then it will be back into drinks carrying for the test squad and the odd white ball innings thrown in.
There's a very real chance he gets overtaken by some of the County young guns who will get the chance to bat week in week out and get time in the middle.3 -
Most promising young batters will aspire to be a star in the IPL. If they don’t become a star in the IPL, there are enough T20 tournaments plus the Hundred domestically and around the world to earn a good living. Making the Test team as a batter pays well but the level just below is not highly paid, so what route does a young cricketer take? Becoming a good, solid Test batter means doing the hard yards, with failure to reach the top being poorly paid compared to the short-form practitioners. It won’t change, sadly.thickandthin63 said:
Herein lies the problem,once a player gets established in the test squad,thats it,hardly a county game over 4 days,just 20-20,100,big bash,one dayers IPL,this is no way to develop test match cricketers.They need week in week out matches and situations whereby they need to be patient ,not feel they have to score at 6 an over all the time.MarcusH26 said:I don't see how someone like Bethell ever develops into a top test player with the lack of cricket he seems to play , he won't be available to play the first block of the Championship because he'll be sitting on the bench at the IPL. Then it will be back into drinks carrying for the test squad and the odd white ball innings thrown in.
There's a very real chance he gets overtaken by some of the County young guns who will get the chance to bat week in week out and get time in the middle.0 -
I’m not usually a reactionary person but there surely has to be a clean sweep of the current coaching setup after this.How on earth Rob Key holds one of the most senior positions in English Cricket is beyond me. Anyone who heard him as a pundit for many years must surely have realised he is completely unsuited to such an important position. It’s like appointing Clinton Morrison as head of the FA. It’s absolutely clear he is providing no direction at all, he should be managing Mccullum and Stokes and yet it’s abundantly clear they manage him. You can’t escape Key doing interviews when all is going well and yet now we are getting completely trounced he is nowhere to be seen unsurprisingly.
Aggers had it right a few days ago when he said there’s absolutely no accountability in this setup at all. Nobody is holding Mccullum to account, so that’s why he feels secure enough to come out with the absolutely ludicrous statement that the players have trained to hard despite it being clear to absolutely everyone else that they are unfit and under prepared. Nobody is saying they should be in the nets every day until the next test but to imply they have worked to hard and some golf is in order is just two fingers up to everyone who can see what is plainly obvious that the setup have failed to prepare properly for this series. I suspect some of that is due to arrogance and assuming they could just turn up and win and part of it is because a lot of the setup give the distinct impression they can’t be arsed. Just turn up, slog some balls, maybe win or maybe lose and then back to the golf for a few days.
Nobody holds the players to account so they are free to do whatever they like. There’s a reason lots of people have said England haven’t played to their full potential this series and it’s clear to me that’s because they don’t need to. Crawley, Brook, Archer etc know they will play the rest of the series because this setup have eliminated any form of competition for places so they can play however they like. Why is it every team in all manners of elite sports prize competition for places? Because it keeps people on their toes and performing to their maximum. There is barely a player in this team who has any worry or concern about being replaced.What is most frustrating is there are plenty of players in this country who could add so much value to this side who are overlooked because they don’t play a certain way. A certain way which currently has us on track for an absolute humiliation down under. Having a style of play is wonderful but last time I checked most fans valued results.11 -
Lots saying that the Bazball philosophy , at least in part may well be consigned to the bin after Stokes post match talks yesterday.
That's great, but asking a squad which is predominantly a bunch of One-day and T20 bashers, who have spent three years following the rules of Bazball to the letter to suddenly turn themselves into a high class defensive test outfit....in the Ashes...in Australia! is not going to be pretty.
When you add to the mix Sokes and McCullum pretty much dug most of them out yesterday for doing what they've been telling them to do for three years...
I smell a bloodbath!1 -
The worrying thing is where are all the players in the wings pushing the current incumbents. Who in the Lions tour is pushing for a place. Madness is doing the same things expecting a different result. It has become too cosy and comfortable in the England team, there doesn’t appear to be any consequence’s. Take the shots of Pope, Brook and Crawley, throwing their wickets away. I remember Boycott getting dropped after scoring a century for England. It is really hard to get dropped from the England team despite constant failures.1
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You need balls to play in Oz. Need to take the fight to them.
Unfortunately Pope/Smith just do not have it. They are both mentally weak. Compare Pope to someone like Trott. Miles apart. Not sure about Duckett. Weirdly, I think Crawley does have it, just worry about his concentration lapses.2 -
Bad comparison for Pope there lol, saying he's mentally weak in Australia compared to a guy who basically had a full breakdown and retired cos Mitchell Johnson bowled quite fast at himBig_Bob said:You need balls to play in Oz. Need to take the fight to them.
Unfortunately Pope/Smith just do not have it. They are both mentally weak. Compare Pope to someone like Trott. Miles apart. Not sure about Duckett. Weirdly, I think Crawley does have it, just worry about his concentration lapses.2 -
I keep saying this but central contracts have become certainty for those that want to have a guaranteed massive income and to dictate when and where they play outside England commitments but are a disincentive for those that know the likelihood of them deposing those under central contracts is minimal.
Make central contracts a much reduced retainer so that pot is spread wider, pay the players more for being selected for England squads (including Lions tours) and give them an added bonus for actually making the team.
We've only in the last month announced our central contracts for the following 12 months. Many of those should not have been guaranteed such an income and a disincentive for playing county cricket as under this regime they can dictate when they want to play rather than when they need to - they are either proven as being injury prone, out of form or unproven at international level plus, aren't potentially going to progress as cricketers by not playing county cricket and are blocking the pathway for others.An example of one such player caught "in no mans land" is Jordan Cox (averaged 59.09 in Div 1 of the County Championship, 38.00 at 165.21 in the Blast and scored 84 more runs than any other batter in the Hundred) who was picked to make his England debut on the NZ tour but broke his finger. Not only was he left out of the Ashes squad but he wasn't even given a central contract either. What's his incentive to be on the Lions Tour rather than playing in the DP World T20 which is what he's doing instead?
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England Lions, so as not to feel left out, lost by an innings and 127 runs to the Australia A side. Bethell made 19 and 71 in the match and Bashir returned figures of 25-2-115-0.
The one shining light is the aforementioned Asa Tribe who made 129 not out of a Lions second innings total of 295. He took 195 balls (perfect for Test cricket but a strike rate of 66.15 is bound to be sniffed at by the Bazballers) and faced the bowling of four international bowlers plus a future one in the shape of Fergus O'Neill.5
